Can you multiclass into another Psion discipline? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can you multiclass into another Psion discipline? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
12-31-07, 06:49 PM I know it might be an odd question, but after taking a few levels in a Psion discipline could you multiclass into another Psion discipline?

If so, what special/unusual things happen concerning the multiclassing rules?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
12-31-07, 07:20 PM No. You can't.
Solstysse
12-31-07, 09:28 PM Nope but you can take the feat Expanded Knowledge...it lets you pick ONE power from any list even from another CLASS list...but only one. It'd be up to your DM if you could take the feat more than once at lower levels.

So you can take a power from seer if you're an egoist...or a power from soulknife if you're a wilder (w/o devoting a level to the other class)

Otherwise I'm pretty sure you can't even use a power repository or other magical/psionic device with another disciples power in it. It's just a way they balance the game...choosing from any list all willy-nillywould make psionics broken. Taking a feat for one power...not so bad. Especially since that power has to be one level lower than your highest known power level.

Good the balance is young psion....*yoda-voice*

You can doubledip with another class though...and get stuff off their lists. Like psion 3/psychic warrior 1 type builds. So for psion you'd pick from powers off your disciples list up to level 2 powers. Psychic warrior, you'd be able to manifest one power from the level 1 psychic warrior list. Just because you have 4 psionic type level doesn't mean you can manifest 3rd level Psion powers. Those don't stack. BUT the power points can be used to manifest powers from either group.
The_Mess
12-31-07, 09:53 PM Nope but you can take the feat Expanded Knowledge...it lets you pick ONE power from any list even from another CLASS list...but only one. It'd be up to your DM if you could take the feat more than once at lower levels.

In the sense that everything is up to the DM, yes, but the feat specifically states you can take it multiple times (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). It's Rules As Written.
Solstysse
12-31-07, 10:29 PM In the sense that everything is up to the DM, yes, but the feat specifically states you can take it multiple times (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). It's Rules As Written.

You're right. LoL. The feat hits the bottom of the page and I didn't look up to the next section to for the "special" part. You're right. Take it as many times as you want!! Even better!
Bacris
01-01-08, 02:20 AM Just as you can't multiclass a cleric of one god and a cleric of another, or a generalist wizard and a specialist wizard, or a diviner and an evoker, so can you not multiclass the disciplines of psion - it's still the psion class.
Solstysse
01-01-08, 02:30 AM Just as you can't multiclass a cleric of one god and a cleric of another, or a generalist wizard and a specialist wizard, or a diviner and an evoker, so can you not multiclass the disciplines of psion - it's still the psion class.

Excellent example Bacris. Bravo.
InkBlot
01-01-08, 05:12 PM You can't take the first level of a class more than once, even if doing so would allow you to make different choices. Page 59 of the Player's Handbook, under Adding A Second Class.
MnemonicSV
01-02-08, 02:08 AM So you can take a power from seer if you're an egoist...or a power from soulknife if you're a wilder (w/o devoting a level to the other class)

Well... I doubt Expanded Knowledge would let you choose a power from the soulknife class power list. Mostly because soulknifes (soulknives?) don't have a power list.
Solstysse
01-02-08, 09:29 AM I was just picking something quickly to make an example hun. Sustitute psychic warrior if you want to for that sentence. I'm hoping he didn't wander through the book looking for the soulknife power list...lol.
Lycanthromancer
01-02-08, 10:19 AM Soulknife power list...

I might just have to...

Um...probably not.
Scion of Coldshard
01-02-08, 11:52 AM While the rules say you cant I did have a character in a game once who did it.. 4 different psion disciplines and the wilder. It was for a special prc. Interesting character and very entertaining, but very low on the power scale ;)
MnemonicSV
01-03-08, 02:40 AM Going on something of a tangent...

I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway.
archerpwr
01-03-08, 08:59 AM Going on something of a tangent...

I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway.

You can multiclass psion/erudite with ardent. It's just a terrible idea.
Anyr
01-03-08, 10:43 AM Going on something of a tangent...

I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway.

It might be because psionic classes share a single power pool, regardless of which classes contribute. So a character with that prestige class and Practised Manifester taken twice would have the combined power points of both classes. Even taking the lower levels of each into account, that's probably a good deal.
Solstysse
01-03-08, 10:45 AM It'd be really tough to go up in two psionic classes...yucky bab's...not always wonderful hp. I'm a level 15 character, multiclassed with wizard though and I juuuust got my second attack. Ouch. Dipping into psionics once is good enough for me...it's power at a cost.
CrimsonDeath
01-03-08, 11:06 AM It might be because psionic classes share a single power pool, regardless of which classes contribute. So a character with that prestige class and Practised Manifester taken twice would have the combined power points of both classes. Even taking the lower levels of each into account, that's probably a good deal.

Suppose the class is like UM, 10/10 manifesting for one side an 7/10 for the other. Supposed you use Practiced Manifester to make sure you get full manifesting in one class. At level 20, you wind up with ML 17 on one side and ML 10 on the other. Assuming something like Psion/Wilder or Psion/Ardent, that gives you 250+88=333 base PP, ten less than a single-classed manifester. Yes, you get 34 levels worth of bonus PP, but your manifesting ability score is split.

Assuming 32 point-buy and no races that boost your primary manifesting ability score, after enhancement bonuses you'll probably wind up with a 26 in your primary manifesting ability score and a 22 in your secondary one for a total of 80+42=122 bonus PP, against a single-class manifester who'll probably have a 28 in his primary manifesting ability score (and better Dexterity or Constitution) for 90 bonus PP. So in this case, the Ultimate Psychic has a mere 22 more daily PP-- only slightly more than one fully-augmented power per day-- at the cost of knowing fewer high-level powers and, unless he's an Ardent on the primary side, learning them later (and if he is, the problem of knowing fewer powers is aggravated). Access to Inherent bonuses to ability scores will widen the gap a bit, but at significant cost (the single-class manifester will probably want a single tome +5 for a final ability score of 34, while the Ultimate Psychic will want two +4s or a +4 and +5 for a 26 and a 30 or 32).

The only way to use the same primary manifesting ability score for both sides is Ardent/Psychic Warrior, which is even worse-- the Psychic Warrior has around 1/3 as many base PP and a power list that mostly revolves around self-buffing, which won't help very much with the Ultimate Psychic's probable 1/2 base attack.

The biggest reason I can think of that an Ultimate Psychic hasn't been written is because the prerequisites would be awkward. What would the Manifesting prerequisite be, "ability to manifest level 2 powers from two different classes"? Arguably, a single-classed Psion with Expanded Knowledge could qualify by level 5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 12-31-07, 06:49 PM	I know it might be an odd question, but after taking a few levels in a Psion discipline could you multiclass into another Psion discipline? If so, what special/unusual things happen concerning the multiclassing rules? Thanks in advance for any help.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 12-31-07, 07:20 PM	No. You can't.
Solstysse 12-31-07, 09:28 PM	Nope but you can take the feat Expanded Knowledge...it lets you pick ONE power from any list even from another CLASS list...but only one. It'd be up to your DM if you could take the feat more than once at lower levels. So you can take a power from seer if you're an egoist...or a power from soulknife if you're a wilder (w/o devoting a level to the other class) Otherwise I'm pretty sure you can't even use a power repository or other magical/psionic device with another disciples power in it. It's just a way they balance the game...choosing from any list all willy-nillywould make psionics broken. Taking a feat for one power...not so bad. Especially since that power has to be one level lower than your highest known power level. Good the balance is young psion....yoda-voice You can doubledip with another class though...and get stuff off their lists. Like psion 3/psychic warrior 1 type builds. So for psion you'd pick from powers off your disciples list up to level 2 powers. Psychic warrior, you'd be able to manifest one power from the level 1 psychic warrior list. Just because you have 4 psionic type level doesn't mean you can manifest 3rd level Psion powers. Those don't stack. BUT the power points can be used to manifest powers from either group.
The_Mess 12-31-07, 09:53 PM	Nope but you can take the feat Expanded Knowledge...it lets you pick ONE power from any list even from another CLASS list...but only one. It'd be up to your DM if you could take the feat more than once at lower levels. In the sense that everything is up to the DM, yes, but the feat specifically states you can take it multiple times (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). It's Rules As Written.
Solstysse 12-31-07, 10:29 PM	In the sense that everything is up to the DM, yes, but the feat specifically states you can take it multiple times (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge). It's Rules As Written. You're right. LoL. The feat hits the bottom of the page and I didn't look up to the next section to for the "special" part. You're right. Take it as many times as you want!! Even better!
Bacris 01-01-08, 02:20 AM	Just as you can't multiclass a cleric of one god and a cleric of another, or a generalist wizard and a specialist wizard, or a diviner and an evoker, so can you not multiclass the disciplines of psion - it's still the psion class.
Solstysse 01-01-08, 02:30 AM	Just as you can't multiclass a cleric of one god and a cleric of another, or a generalist wizard and a specialist wizard, or a diviner and an evoker, so can you not multiclass the disciplines of psion - it's still the psion class. Excellent example Bacris. Bravo.
InkBlot 01-01-08, 05:12 PM	You can't take the first level of a class more than once, even if doing so would allow you to make different choices. Page 59 of the Player's Handbook, under Adding A Second Class.
MnemonicSV 01-02-08, 02:08 AM	So you can take a power from seer if you're an egoist...or a power from soulknife if you're a wilder (w/o devoting a level to the other class) Well... I doubt Expanded Knowledge would let you choose a power from the soulknife class power list. Mostly because soulknifes (soulknives?) don't have a power list.
Solstysse 01-02-08, 09:29 AM	I was just picking something quickly to make an example hun. Sustitute psychic warrior if you want to for that sentence. I'm hoping he didn't wander through the book looking for the soulknife power list...lol.
Lycanthromancer 01-02-08, 10:19 AM	Soulknife power list... I might just have to... Um...probably not.
Scion of Coldshard 01-02-08, 11:52 AM	While the rules say you cant I did have a character in a game once who did it.. 4 different psion disciplines and the wilder. It was for a special prc. Interesting character and very entertaining, but very low on the power scale ;)
MnemonicSV 01-03-08, 02:40 AM	Going on something of a tangent... I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway.
archerpwr 01-03-08, 08:59 AM	Going on something of a tangent... I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway. You can multiclass psion/erudite with ardent. It's just a terrible idea.
Anyr 01-03-08, 10:43 AM	Going on something of a tangent... I have to admit it is a little odd though... what with the Ultimate Magus PrC (and it's Arcane/Arcane spellcaster progression) you would at least think it would be possible to create a PrC that lets you progress in two simultaneous manifester progressions. Obviously not psion/psion because it's the same class; But why not, say, psion/ardent or something to that extent? Something to think about anyway. It might be because psionic classes share a single power pool, regardless of which classes contribute. So a character with that prestige class and Practised Manifester taken twice would have the combined power points of both classes. Even taking the lower levels of each into account, that's probably a good deal.
Solstysse 01-03-08, 10:45 AM	It'd be really tough to go up in two psionic classes...yucky bab's...not always wonderful hp. I'm a level 15 character, multiclassed with wizard though and I juuuust got my second attack. Ouch. Dipping into psionics once is good enough for me...it's power at a cost.
CrimsonDeath 01-03-08, 11:06 AM	It might be because psionic classes share a single power pool, regardless of which classes contribute. So a character with that prestige class and Practised Manifester taken twice would have the combined power points of both classes. Even taking the lower levels of each into account, that's probably a good deal. Suppose the class is like UM, 10/10 manifesting for one side an 7/10 for the other. Supposed you use Practiced Manifester to make sure you get full manifesting in one class. At level 20, you wind up with ML 17 on one side and ML 10 on the other. Assuming something like Psion/Wilder or Psion/Ardent, that gives you 250+88=333 base PP, ten less than a single-classed manifester. Yes, you get 34 levels worth of bonus PP, but your manifesting ability score is split. Assuming 32 point-buy and no races that boost your primary manifesting ability score, after enhancement bonuses you'll probably wind up with a 26 in your primary manifesting ability score and a 22 in your secondary one for a total of 80+42=122 bonus PP, against a single-class manifester who'll probably have a 28 in his primary manifesting ability score (and better Dexterity or Constitution) for 90 bonus PP. So in this case, the Ultimate Psychic has a mere 22 more daily PP-- only slightly more than one fully-augmented power per day-- at the cost of knowing fewer high-level powers and, unless he's an Ardent on the primary side, learning them later (and if he is, the problem of knowing fewer powers is aggravated). Access to Inherent bonuses to ability scores will widen the gap a bit, but at significant cost (the single-class manifester will probably want a single tome +5 for a final ability score of 34, while the Ultimate Psychic will want two +4s or a +4 and +5 for a 26 and a 30 or 32). The only way to use the same primary manifesting ability score for both sides is Ardent/Psychic Warrior, which is even worse-- the Psychic Warrior has around 1/3 as many base PP and a power list that mostly revolves around self-buffing, which won't help very much with the Ultimate Psychic's probable 1/2 base attack. The biggest reason I can think of that an Ultimate Psychic hasn't been written is because the prerequisites would be awkward. What would the Manifesting prerequisite be, "ability to manifest level 2 powers from two different classes"? Arguably, a single-classed Psion with Expanded Knowledge could qualify by level 5.