Catfall [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Catfall [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dnddreamer
03-24-07, 10:59 AM I believe I remember reading somewhere that the use of the Catfall Power can be use in response to being tripped so if you get tripped and about to fall prone you can manifest it to be back on your feet during the same round as being tripped. Is that correct?
Nephlite
03-24-07, 11:11 AM I believe I remember reading somewhere that the use of the Catfall Power can be use in response to being tripped so if you get tripped and about to fall prone you can manifest it to be back on your feet during the same round as being tripped. Is that correct?

No but it implies it. Since you always "fall prone" and catfall allows you when falling to land on your feet.

Basically:
Catfall says When F you A.
Prone says F.
So it implies Catfall makes A happen when tripped so it makes you back on feet.
dnddreamer
03-24-07, 11:25 AM So basically it is in interpertation of the rules by your DM...
AntiDjinn
03-24-07, 01:06 PM Basically, the trip maneuver says you fall, and Catfall says when you fall you always land on your feet. So if someone trips you, for 1 point and an immediate action you can choose to land on your feet even after they are cut out from under you. You don't fall prone then get up again. This would also apply vs. Stomp and other effects that say you fall (though you still take the damage if you failed the save because it is not based on distance fallen). Remember: You do fall, you just land on your feet instead of your face.

This isn't always that big a deal. Sure, your psychic warrior will want to end up standing, but a psion might not want to waste the immediate action and a point. A telepath who is prone enjoys a bonus to AC vs. ranged attacks and the condition applies no modifiers to manifestation (mods do apply if you need to make a touch attack to deliver a power, arguably your line of sight will be affected) so he can melt minds just fine from the floor.

Oddly, by the RAW using Catfall does not prevent the follow-up attack from Improved Trip. The feat says after you trip someone (and you did, he just used to power to land on his feet) you can make a melee attack against him. Note: It does not say the target has to be prone for this attack to occur, just that is has to follow a successful trip.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-25-07, 02:26 AM So basically it is in interpertation of the rules by your DM...

Yep. However, I would allow it (catfall is a fairly useless power compared to feather fall otherwise). It's a very niche usage, it's easy to get around (just trip the psychic warrior twice in a full attack, he only has one immediate action), and it blows the psychic warrior's swift action for his next turn.
Mystyc
03-25-07, 11:02 PM Oddly, by the RAW using Catfall does not prevent the follow-up attack from Improved Trip. The feat says after you trip someone (and you did, he just used to power to land on his feet) you can make a melee attack against him. Note: It does not say the target has to be prone for this attack to occur, just that is has to follow a successful trip.
I'd imagine you could use that follow-up attack to attempt another trip action.
mato_hibiki
03-26-07, 09:00 PM Nice. Totally gets around that 'you can't trip someone you just tripped' issue.

The tripped guy isn't prone, so you can use your free attack to trip him again. And then get another free attack, since you just tripped him again.

Oh, my, god.

Can you imagine if someone made a build to get infinite catfalls in a round? XD Just one fighter with improved trip, and he not only ruins your day, but he also blows through your entire stock of PP in one turn.

*Laughs.* Impossible, I know. But funny as hell to picture the look on the smug, power-gaming player's face.
RadicalTaoist
03-26-07, 10:50 PM The idea is that the Psychic Warrior is already pumped up on Expansion and Strength of my Enemy. The odds should favor him in trip contests; Catfall is just there for when he gets unlucky.

The other benefit of Catfall is it only applies to you. So if you're in a situation where there are sharp drops and the possibility of falling damage, try grappling an enemy (which psywars already rock at) and jumping off. Feather Fall would either fail or send you both to the ground safely, but Catfall? Can anyone say Izuna Drop?
AntiDjinn
03-26-07, 11:44 PM I'd imagine you could use that follow-up attack to attempt another trip action.

Technically, No. Improved Trip allows you to make one melee attack against the guy you just tripped. It does not grant you an additional standard action that you can use for whatever you like; it specifies melee attack. If you want to attempt to trip again then wait for your next standard action.
Mystyc
03-26-07, 11:47 PM Technically, No. Improved Trip allows you to make one melee attack against the guy you just tripped. It does not grant you an additional standard action that you can use for whatever you like; it specifies melee attack. If you want to attempt to trip again then wait for your next standard action.
Tripping isn't a standard action. It replaces an attack action, meaning you can make one as a standard, or you can make several during a full attack, or as an attack of opportunity, or any other time where you can make an attack (like off Improved Trip).
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-26-07, 11:48 PM Can you imagine if someone made a build to get infinite catfalls in a round? XD Just one fighter with improved trip, and he not only ruins your day, but he also blows through your entire stock of PP in one turn.

Said build would involve infinite swift actions in a round (or a use-activated universal item), and there are so many better things you can do with that.
AntiDjinn
03-27-07, 12:00 AM Tripping isn't a standard action. It replaces an attack action, meaning you can make one as a standard, or you can make several during a full attack, or as an attack of opportunity, or any other time where you can make an attack (like off Improved Trip).
It does not give you an attack action. It gives you a melee attack, which is one specific type of attack action. If it gave you an attack action then you would have all the standard options. Instead you have one option: Melee attack vs. the target you tripped, take it or not? If it gave you a standard action then you could have the infinite loop of improved trip attacks.
Mystyc
03-27-07, 12:05 AM It does not give you an attack action. It gives you a melee attack, which is one specific type of attack action. If it gave you an attack action then you would have all the standard options. Instead you have one option: Melee attack vs. the target you tripped, take it or not? If it gave you a standard action then you could have the infinite loop of improved trip attacks.
Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Improved Trip grants a melee attack, which is what a trip attempt replaces. You usually can't re-trip because the target is already prone, but Catfall prevents this, allowing you to take a second shot at the trip-eration.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-27-07, 12:25 AM Improved Trip grants a melee attack, which is what a trip attempt replaces. You usually can't re-trip because the target is already prone, but Catfall prevents this, allowing you to take a second shot at the trip-eration.

Actually, nothing anywhere says you can't trip a prone opponent. Of course, any sane DM will disallow it, but it's just an oversight.
AntiDjinn
03-27-07, 12:37 AM The PHB actually says a trip is a melee touch attack, which is not what Improved Trip grants. Melee attack and melee touch attack are separate actions, normally each is equivalent, but not when the rules only allow for one.

Consider: Haste allows a subject who takes the full attack action to make one additional attack with a weapon he is holding. There are no restrictions (it doesn't say melee, ranged, etc.). So you can trip, shoot, swing, whatever.

The feat Rapid Shot gives you one extra shot per round with a ranged weapon. Can you use this added attack to bull rush instead? Nope, you can shoot your weapon and that is all. It does not give you an attack action, it gives you one additional specific attack. You could have decided to bull rush instead of firing your weapon as your attack action for that round, but once you chose to use a ranged attack and Rapid Shot you don't have the option to trade that extra shot as an attack action.

Improved Trip gives you one addtional melee attack, the text does not even imply that it allows anything other than a single melee attack vs. the target you tripped. It certainly does not allow infinite recursive attacks.
Mystyc
03-27-07, 12:51 AM The PHB actually says a trip is a melee touch attack, which is not what Improved Trip grants. Melee attack and melee touch attack are separate actions, normally each is equivalent, but not when the rules only allow for one.
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure I just quoted the SRD, and to be positive, I'm now looking at PHB page 158. Is your argument that the sentence "you can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack" doesn't mean that you can try to trip someone with an unarmed melee attack?

Let's break this down:
Premise 1: Improved Trip grants a melee attack upon a successful trip. (PHB 96)
Premise 2: Unarmed melee attacks are melee attacks. (Tautology)
Conclusion A: Improved Trip can grant an unarmed melee attack upon a successful trip.
Premise 3: You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. (PHB 158)
Conclusion B: Improved Trip can grant a trip attempt upon a successful trip.

Please identify where you disagree. And stow that whole "infinite recursive attacks" -- this has always been possible, it just rarely matters since you shouldn't try to trip someone who's already prone (which, evidently, you can do in case you're an idiot). As soon as you attempt a damaging attack, the "recursive" attacks are over, so it's doesn't matter.
AntiDjinn
03-27-07, 12:58 AM Trip requires a melee touch attack. Improved trip grants a melee attack. You can attack, but not bypass armor. If you are not making a melee touch attack (armed or unarmed) then you are not making a trip attempt.
Tempest Stormwind
03-27-07, 01:00 AM Of course, you do realize that this will ONLY ever appear in a situation like Catfall's, right?

Improved Trip triggers on a successful trip attack. After a successful trip attack, the opponent is always prone -- except when Catfall kicks in, where he isn't. This means that unless Catfall or something very much like it is used, he won't be able to use his improved trip extra attack to trip the guy again -- you can't trip what's already prone.

I'd say let the improved trip try to trip him again. In general, a feat is worth more than a power anyway, and Catfall has uses outside of avoiding trips. Besides, against a caster-type, grapples are generally a better option. That leaves the psywar -- who typically has Expansion, Reach, and similar things which make tripping him... difficult.
Mystyc
03-27-07, 01:19 AM Trip requires a melee touch attack. Improved trip grants a melee attack.
Let's grant for a second that "melee touch attacks" are not, in fact, a subset of "melee attacks." I don't agree with this either, but I'll grant it for now.

Even still, that touch attack isn't being directly substituted for the bonus melee attack. The touch attack is part of the trip routine, which is a multistep process that can fully replace any melee attack, as shown in my previous post.

The only thing "recursive" about this is that it lets you re-trip people who stay standing somehow, or that it (evidently) can let you make many touch attacks in one round if you keep re-tripping someone who's already prone. So, I guess you could discharge an entire chill touch in one round. Doesn't concern me too much.

Actually, unless I have this wrong somehow, most touch spells allow you to make a touch attack as part of the casting. In your world, would you say that you can attempt to trip someone with the attack from a touch spell?
Lamorake
03-27-07, 08:42 PM Food for thought - there's a 1st lvl spell that is made in order to counter trip/prone causing attacks: Stand (PHB II)

The spell is immediate and basically reverses the prone status (ie, the target immediately stands back up).
dnddreamer
03-27-07, 11:19 PM Food for thought - there's a 1st lvl spell that is made in order to counter trip/prone causing attacks: Stand (PHB II)

The spell is immediate and basically reverses the prone status (ie, the target immediately stands back up).

Is that the arcane version of Catfall?
Tempest Stormwind
03-27-07, 11:39 PM Is that the arcane version of Catfall?
The arcane Catfall is Feather Fall. Stand can only be cast on a prone target, who then stands.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dnddreamer 03-24-07, 10:59 AM	I believe I remember reading somewhere that the use of the Catfall Power can be use in response to being tripped so if you get tripped and about to fall prone you can manifest it to be back on your feet during the same round as being tripped. Is that correct?
Nephlite 03-24-07, 11:11 AM	I believe I remember reading somewhere that the use of the Catfall Power can be use in response to being tripped so if you get tripped and about to fall prone you can manifest it to be back on your feet during the same round as being tripped. Is that correct? No but it implies it. Since you always "fall prone" and catfall allows you when falling to land on your feet. Basically: Catfall says When F you A. Prone says F. So it implies Catfall makes A happen when tripped so it makes you back on feet.
dnddreamer 03-24-07, 11:25 AM	So basically it is in interpertation of the rules by your DM...
AntiDjinn 03-24-07, 01:06 PM	Basically, the trip maneuver says you fall, and Catfall says when you fall you always land on your feet. So if someone trips you, for 1 point and an immediate action you can choose to land on your feet even after they are cut out from under you. You don't fall prone then get up again. This would also apply vs. Stomp and other effects that say you fall (though you still take the damage if you failed the save because it is not based on distance fallen). Remember: You do fall, you just land on your feet instead of your face. This isn't always that big a deal. Sure, your psychic warrior will want to end up standing, but a psion might not want to waste the immediate action and a point. A telepath who is prone enjoys a bonus to AC vs. ranged attacks and the condition applies no modifiers to manifestation (mods do apply if you need to make a touch attack to deliver a power, arguably your line of sight will be affected) so he can melt minds just fine from the floor. Oddly, by the RAW using Catfall does not prevent the follow-up attack from Improved Trip. The feat says after you trip someone (and you did, he just used to power to land on his feet) you can make a melee attack against him. Note: It does not say the target has to be prone for this attack to occur, just that is has to follow a successful trip.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-25-07, 02:26 AM	So basically it is in interpertation of the rules by your DM... Yep. However, I would allow it (catfall is a fairly useless power compared to feather fall otherwise). It's a very niche usage, it's easy to get around (just trip the psychic warrior twice in a full attack, he only has one immediate action), and it blows the psychic warrior's swift action for his next turn.
Mystyc 03-25-07, 11:02 PM	Oddly, by the RAW using Catfall does not prevent the follow-up attack from Improved Trip. The feat says after you trip someone (and you did, he just used to power to land on his feet) you can make a melee attack against him. Note: It does not say the target has to be prone for this attack to occur, just that is has to follow a successful trip. I'd imagine you could use that follow-up attack to attempt another trip action.
mato_hibiki 03-26-07, 09:00 PM	Nice. Totally gets around that 'you can't trip someone you just tripped' issue. The tripped guy isn't prone, so you can use your free attack to trip him again. And then get another free attack, since you just tripped him again. Oh, my, god. Can you imagine if someone made a build to get infinite catfalls in a round? XD Just one fighter with improved trip, and he not only ruins your day, but he also blows through your entire stock of PP in one turn. Laughs. Impossible, I know. But funny as hell to picture the look on the smug, power-gaming player's face.
RadicalTaoist 03-26-07, 10:50 PM	The idea is that the Psychic Warrior is already pumped up on Expansion and Strength of my Enemy. The odds should favor him in trip contests; Catfall is just there for when he gets unlucky. The other benefit of Catfall is it only applies to you. So if you're in a situation where there are sharp drops and the possibility of falling damage, try grappling an enemy (which psywars already rock at) and jumping off. Feather Fall would either fail or send you both to the ground safely, but Catfall? Can anyone say Izuna Drop?
AntiDjinn 03-26-07, 11:44 PM	I'd imagine you could use that follow-up attack to attempt another trip action. Technically, No. Improved Trip allows you to make one melee attack against the guy you just tripped. It does not grant you an additional standard action that you can use for whatever you like; it specifies melee attack. If you want to attempt to trip again then wait for your next standard action.
Mystyc 03-26-07, 11:47 PM	Technically, No. Improved Trip allows you to make one melee attack against the guy you just tripped. It does not grant you an additional standard action that you can use for whatever you like; it specifies melee attack. If you want to attempt to trip again then wait for your next standard action. Tripping isn't a standard action. It replaces an attack action, meaning you can make one as a standard, or you can make several during a full attack, or as an attack of opportunity, or any other time where you can make an attack (like off Improved Trip).
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-26-07, 11:48 PM	Can you imagine if someone made a build to get infinite catfalls in a round? XD Just one fighter with improved trip, and he not only ruins your day, but he also blows through your entire stock of PP in one turn. Said build would involve infinite swift actions in a round (or a use-activated universal item), and there are so many better things you can do with that.
AntiDjinn 03-27-07, 12:00 AM	Tripping isn't a standard action. It replaces an attack action, meaning you can make one as a standard, or you can make several during a full attack, or as an attack of opportunity, or any other time where you can make an attack (like off Improved Trip). It does not give you an attack action. It gives you a melee attack, which is one specific type of attack action. If it gave you an attack action then you would have all the standard options. Instead you have one option: Melee attack vs. the target you tripped, take it or not? If it gave you a standard action then you could have the infinite loop of improved trip attacks.
Mystyc 03-27-07, 12:05 AM	It does not give you an attack action. It gives you a melee attack, which is one specific type of attack action. If it gave you an attack action then you would have all the standard options. Instead you have one option: Melee attack vs. the target you tripped, take it or not? If it gave you a standard action then you could have the infinite loop of improved trip attacks. Trip You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Improved Trip grants a melee attack, which is what a trip attempt replaces. You usually can't re-trip because the target is already prone, but Catfall prevents this, allowing you to take a second shot at the trip-eration.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-27-07, 12:25 AM	Improved Trip grants a melee attack, which is what a trip attempt replaces. You usually can't re-trip because the target is already prone, but Catfall prevents this, allowing you to take a second shot at the trip-eration. Actually, nothing anywhere says you can't trip a prone opponent. Of course, any sane DM will disallow it, but it's just an oversight.
AntiDjinn 03-27-07, 12:37 AM	The PHB actually says a trip is a melee touch attack, which is not what Improved Trip grants. Melee attack and melee touch attack are separate actions, normally each is equivalent, but not when the rules only allow for one. Consider: Haste allows a subject who takes the full attack action to make one additional attack with a weapon he is holding. There are no restrictions (it doesn't say melee, ranged, etc.). So you can trip, shoot, swing, whatever. The feat Rapid Shot gives you one extra shot per round with a ranged weapon. Can you use this added attack to bull rush instead? Nope, you can shoot your weapon and that is all. It does not give you an attack action, it gives you one additional specific attack. You could have decided to bull rush instead of firing your weapon as your attack action for that round, but once you chose to use a ranged attack and Rapid Shot you don't have the option to trade that extra shot as an attack action. Improved Trip gives you one addtional melee attack, the text does not even imply that it allows anything other than a single melee attack vs. the target you tripped. It certainly does not allow infinite recursive attacks.
Mystyc 03-27-07, 12:51 AM	The PHB actually says a trip is a melee touch attack, which is not what Improved Trip grants. Melee attack and melee touch attack are separate actions, normally each is equivalent, but not when the rules only allow for one. Wait, what? I'm pretty sure I just quoted the SRD, and to be positive, I'm now looking at PHB page 158. Is your argument that the sentence "you can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack" doesn't mean that you can try to trip someone with an unarmed melee attack? Let's break this down: Premise 1: Improved Trip grants a melee attack upon a successful trip. (PHB 96) Premise 2: Unarmed melee attacks are melee attacks. (Tautology) Conclusion A: Improved Trip can grant an unarmed melee attack upon a successful trip. Premise 3: You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. (PHB 158) Conclusion B: Improved Trip can grant a trip attempt upon a successful trip. Please identify where you disagree. And stow that whole "infinite recursive attacks" -- this has always been possible, it just rarely matters since you shouldn't try to trip someone who's already prone (which, evidently, you can do in case you're an idiot). As soon as you attempt a damaging attack, the "recursive" attacks are over, so it's doesn't matter.
AntiDjinn 03-27-07, 12:58 AM	Trip requires a melee touch attack. Improved trip grants a melee attack. You can attack, but not bypass armor. If you are not making a melee touch attack (armed or unarmed) then you are not making a trip attempt.
Tempest Stormwind 03-27-07, 01:00 AM	Of course, you do realize that this will ONLY ever appear in a situation like Catfall's, right? Improved Trip triggers on a successful trip attack. After a successful trip attack, the opponent is always prone -- except when Catfall kicks in, where he isn't. This means that unless Catfall or something very much like it is used, he won't be able to use his improved trip extra attack to trip the guy again -- you can't trip what's already prone. I'd say let the improved trip try to trip him again. In general, a feat is worth more than a power anyway, and Catfall has uses outside of avoiding trips. Besides, against a caster-type, grapples are generally a better option. That leaves the psywar -- who typically has Expansion, Reach, and similar things which make tripping him... difficult.
Mystyc 03-27-07, 01:19 AM	Trip requires a melee touch attack. Improved trip grants a melee attack. Let's grant for a second that "melee touch attacks" are not, in fact, a subset of "melee attacks." I don't agree with this either, but I'll grant it for now. Even still, that touch attack isn't being directly substituted for the bonus melee attack. The touch attack is part of the trip routine, which is a multistep process that can fully replace any melee attack, as shown in my previous post. The only thing "recursive" about this is that it lets you re-trip people who stay standing somehow, or that it (evidently) can let you make many touch attacks in one round if you keep re-tripping someone who's already prone. So, I guess you could discharge an entire chill touch in one round. Doesn't concern me too much. Actually, unless I have this wrong somehow, most touch spells allow you to make a touch attack as part of the casting. In your world, would you say that you can attempt to trip someone with the attack from a touch spell?
Lamorake 03-27-07, 08:42 PM	Food for thought - there's a 1st lvl spell that is made in order to counter trip/prone causing attacks: Stand (PHB II) The spell is immediate and basically reverses the prone status (ie, the target immediately stands back up).
dnddreamer 03-27-07, 11:19 PM	Food for thought - there's a 1st lvl spell that is made in order to counter trip/prone causing attacks: Stand (PHB II) The spell is immediate and basically reverses the prone status (ie, the target immediately stands back up). Is that the arcane version of Catfall?
Tempest Stormwind 03-27-07, 11:39 PM	Is that the arcane version of Catfall? The arcane Catfall is Feather Fall. Stand can only be cast on a prone target, who then stands.