Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesiolan 11-19-07, 04:33 AM	This has probably been discussed before, but I haven’t seen it on the PSI-boards yet. A psion gets Energy Barrage at 11th level (3 energy balls with 5 dice each, save half). With Empower Power, he may lash out for 3x (5d6+5 fire or cold) x 1.5 (Empower) at level 13, or with Overchannel at level 11. This is 100 HP. GOOD for an 11th level character, but hardly overwhelming. At 15th level, the psion overchannels for a twinned Energy Barrage (Privileged Energy) for 6x (5d6+10 fire or cold) or 165 HP damage. NICE. At 16th, he twins and empowers it for 246 HP. That is AWESOME. Energy resistance ruins the day of the psion - it’s applied to each energy ball separatly. PR/SR may ruin the whole manifestation, but Overchannel helps here too. Evasion or Mettle do wonders here. But don’t forget, the save DC is not trivial (most PC psions will have DC 22-26), and the targets need six saves for half damage or no damage with evasion/mettle. This build costs a total of seven feats: Overchannel, Empower Power, Privileged Energy, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Expanded Knowledge (Energy Missile) and Twin Power. Most of the feats are nice on their own, so this is no “one-trick-pony” guy. The psion needs not to take a single level off his core class, and does not depend on items with this effect. To manifest it, it takes both psionic foci, 5d8 HP, and 19pp. Manifestation takes only a standard action - there are a move and a swift action left. If you put more feats into the build, he could nova even more: he could refocus (takes another feat and the move action), then he manifests a quickened power (takes the swift action and another feat) in this very round. This is in addition to anything his schism mind could do (takes another feat) or the stuff a 16th level psion could do with Temporal Acceleration. Could somebody please show me an arcane or divine caster of 16th level or lower, who does some 240 HP damage with a single spell or even spell combination in a single round? Preferably a caster without heavy multiclassing?
calronmoonflower 11-19-07, 04:59 AM	Let me try. Meteor Swarm + Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize 1 spell and 3 feats for 248 average damage. [edit]Fixed a math error and it's one level higher than you asked for, but the target gets no save and there is a 40 raduis to catch others in, but a 19 power point power is equalivent to a 10th level spell.
Khatoblepas 11-19-07, 08:02 AM	Let me try. Meteor Swarm + Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize 1 spell and 3 feats for 248 average damage. [edit]Fixed a math error and it's one level higher than you asked for, but the target gets no save and there is a 40 raduis to catch others in, but a 19 power point power is equalivent to a 19th level spell. Ahem. 9th+ level spell. 9th level powers cost ~17pp (I'm AFB at the moment) but 19pp is CERTAINLY not 19th level spells. Oh, and direct damage isn't that awesome.
Xiuhcoatl 11-19-07, 08:31 AM	Tsunami + Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize = 1,540 (or 770) average damage. Tsunami deals 10d6 per round for 1 round/caster level to everything in a 400' line (baring a save). The problem is, it has a save each round and pushes enemies back 60' each round on a failed save. However, maximized it would do 60+5d6 (ave. 77 damage) per round, for twenty rounds ... or 77*20 = 1,540 average damage. Or if we're fighting a Medium or Large creature, and it succeeds on all of its saves, 770 damage. But as far as psionic powers, I am not sure.
moebius00 11-19-07, 09:28 AM	Could somebody please show me an arcane or divine caster of 16th level or lower, who does some 240 HP damage with a single spell or even spell combination in a single round? Preferably a caster without heavy multiclassing? At 16th level, I can do 270 damage with a Psychic Warrior/Warblade/Master of Nine, using Deep Impact + Diamond Nightmare Blade + Power Attack, with a Touch Att. Mod. in the +20s. I can do this every other round. Forever. Thank you, come again!
TheMonk 11-19-07, 09:38 AM	Alright here's more damage. Spellsword10/Abjurant champion5/Wizard5, Human - Feats: Militia feat (proficiency with all martial weapons), the light, medium and heavy armor proficiency feats, and maximize spell. Practiced spellcaster as well. Arcane thesis for the chain lightning spell. Combat casting because we need it for the abjurant champion prestige class. Power attack too. We have 1 feat left, but we don't need any more feats for our purpose. Access to 8th levels spells, caster level 19th with practiced spellcaster. Spellsword ability Channel spell allows the spellsword to channel any 2 spells he wishes into his weapon, and unleash them both upon striking a target (as a standard action). A spell can be stored ahead of time of course, and a stored spell stays within the weapon for 8 hours. The 2 spells we're gonna store are 2 maximized chain lightning spells. That's 228 damage. Since we have wraithstrike (swift action, so we can still do this with a standard action), it's no problem to use power attack and subtract 17 from our BAB to do an additional 34 damage with our greatsword. Let us also assume we have 20 strength, and that's it's a +5 shocking weapon. 228 + 34 + 2d6+13+ 1d6. This is an average of 285 damage on a standard action. Although I am sure there are way better combos. ------- Another combo, a better one. We will assume the above build with a few changes. Arcane thesis for maximize spell, and the Twin spell feat (complete arcane). If we channel 2 twinned, maximized scorching rays, that's 144 damage per scorching ray. Since we have channeled 2 of those, that's 288 damage. To that we add +34 from power attack, 2d6+13 from our +5 greatsword and 20 str, and +1d6 fire damage (as opposed to electricity, for flavor ^^). In the end that's an average of 345 damage in a standard action. But I guess there's more powerful stuff out there.
TheMonk 11-19-07, 09:40 AM	Tsunami + Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize = 1,540 (or 770) average damage. Tsunami deals 10d6 per round for 1 round/caster level to everything in a 400' line (baring a save). The problem is, it has a save each round and pushes enemies back 60' each round on a failed save. However, maximized it would do 60+5d6 (ave. 77 damage) per round, for twenty rounds ... or 77*20 = 1,540 average damage. Or if we're fighting a Medium or Large creature, and it succeeds on all of its saves, 770 damage. But as far as psionic powers, I am not sure. Actually, we're looking for a standard action here, not 20 rounds :) It may take a standard action to actually cast spell, but the damage also must be done within that one standard action. Otherwise, I could assume there are 1,000 people, use tsunami and do millions of damage. But that's not the way it goes. All damage must be done with that 1 standard action, not 20 rounds :) Edit: Damn, sorry about the double post, it wasn't intended :(
moebius00 11-19-07, 10:06 AM	This has probably been discussed before, but I haven’t seen it on the PSI-boards yet. A psion gets Energy Barrage at 11th level (3 energy balls with 5 dice each, save half). With Empower Power, he may lash out for 3x (5d6+5 fire or cold) x 1.5 (Empower) at level 13, or with Overchannel at level 11. This is 100 HP. GOOD for an 11th level character, but hardly overwhelming. At 15th level, the psion overchannels for a twinned Energy Barrage (Privileged Energy) for 6x (5d6+10 fire or cold) or 165 HP damage. NICE. At 16th, he twins and empowers it for 246 HP. That is AWESOME. Energy resistance ruins the day of the psion - it’s applied to each energy ball separatly. PR/SR may ruin the whole manifestation, but Overchannel helps here too. Evasion or Mettle do wonders here. But don’t forget, the save DC is not trivial (most PC psions will have DC 22-26), and the targets need six saves for half damage or no damage with evasion/mettle. To manifest it, it takes both psionic foci, 5d8 HP, and 19pp. Manifestation takes only a standard action - there are a move and a swift action left. If you put more feats into the build, he could nova even more: he could refocus (takes another feat and the move action), then he manifests a quickened power (takes the swift action and another feat) in this very round. This is in addition to anything his schism mind could do (takes another feat) or the stuff a 16th level psion could do with Temporal Acceleration. Could somebody please show me an arcane or divine caster of 16th level or lower, who does some 240 HP damage with a single spell or even spell combination in a single round? Preferably a caster without heavy multiclassing? 1. Meta-X feats used on the same spell/power do not stack. You get 6 energy orbs, but only 3 are empowered. 2. 5d8 damage to a d4 HD is no joke. 3. 16th level + Distintegrate + Arcane Thesis (+2 CL, MM -1 lvl; PHB 2) + Maximize Spell + Ring of Arcane Might (+1 CL; C. Arcane): 38d6 = 228 damage, touch attack, no energy resistance. Two feats, no PrCs, 1 cheap item for a 16th level character, no self-damage.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 11-19-07, 10:27 AM	Ahem. 9th+ level spell. 9th level powers cost ~17pp (I'm AFB at the moment) but 19pp is CERTAINLY not 19th level spells. Oh, and direct damage isn't that awesome. 19 pp is equivalent to a spell cast by a 19th level spellcaster. I think that's what he was trying to say.
ff6shadow 11-19-07, 10:48 AM	Kobold Sorcerer 18. Metamagic Specialist variant class feature. Feats - Empower Spell, Split Ray Twin Spell, Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray), Maximize Spell, Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell). 248 damage on average, involving 8 Range touch attacks. Uses 6 feat, one 8th level spell slot and one use of Metamagic Specialist. Can be done as a full round action to ignore metamagic specialist. Most feats are useful to a blaster anyway. Ignores Evasion, but has issues with Monks. Fire resistance sucks.
Lycanthromancer 11-19-07, 11:35 AM	I can do 1,008,000d6 points of damage with two spell slots on a 15th level wizard, without using feats, or going outside of core. Use shrink item on granite boulders, fill some boxes, then use telekinesis to hurl them. At 15th level, you can shrink enough boulders for twenty-five million or so pounds to be shrunk down to just 375 pounds. When you use telekinesis and they strike the enemy (or up to 15 enemies), they expand, hitting the critters' weak spots for MASSIVE DAMAGE. Use permanency for added (reusable) fun. See here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127) for more details.
PhaedrusXY 11-19-07, 11:55 AM	Divine Metamagic: Twinned Harm. 300 damage. Uses a 6th level slot, 2 feats, and 5 Turn attempts.
Bacris 11-19-07, 01:25 PM	DMM for the win! Gotta love to hate that stupid feat.
CrimsonDeath 11-19-07, 01:45 PM	1. Meta-X feats used on the same spell/power do not stack. You get 6 energy orbs, but only 3 are empowered. No, that rule only applies to Maximize and Empower. The FAQ (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) states that a Twinned Maximized Energy Admixed Scorching Ray would fire two sets of three rays each (for a total of six rays), each of which deals 48 damage (half fire, half whatever was admixed) for a grand total of 288 damage if all six rays hit. I assume metapsionic feats work the same way, if you have multiple psionic focuses to apply them all. Unless, of course, that's been changed. Now, Empower + Maximize is a horse of a different color. Those feats explicitly state that they're applied separately, so the Empowered damage isn't Maximized. (The Maximized damage can't be Empowered because it's not variable.)
calronmoonflower 11-19-07, 03:10 PM	19 pp is equivalent to a spell cast by a 19th level spellcaster. I think that's what he was trying to say. No, just typed too fast. It is 10th level spell equalivent. Anyway. This has probably been discussed before, but I haven’t seen it on the PSI-boards yet. A psion gets Energy Barrage at 11th level (3 energy balls with 5 dice each, save half). With Empower Power, he may lash out for 3x (5d6+5 fire or cold) x 1.5 (Empower) at level 13, or with Overchannel at level 11. This is 100 HP. GOOD for an 11th level character, but hardly overwhelming. By the powers description you wouldn't gain the standard +1 pre die on fire and cold versions. Weird as it is they didn't put it in. At 15th level, the psion overchannels for a twinned Energy Barrage (Privileged Energy) for 6x (5d6+10 fire or cold) or 165 HP damage. NICE. At 16th, he twins and empowers it for 246 HP. That is AWESOME. (5D6+5) X 3 X 2= 93 (5D6 +5) X 3 X 2 X .5 = 46.5 139.5 damage with 6 saves to reduce it and energy resistance is multiplied by 6 as well. I'm no math wiz so I most likely made a mistake, but it seems that an error occured on your side as well.
Suspect_Unusual 11-19-07, 03:44 PM	The OP also needs two psionic focuses if he wants to do the last combo, and he needs Psionic Meditation to do it more than once every 3 rounds.
PhaedrusXY 11-19-07, 11:01 PM	DMM for the win! Gotta love to hate that stupid feat.It's still not as broken as 3.0 Harm was by itself. :P And the cleric sings: Anything you can do, I can do better. :D
Mesiolan 11-20-07, 01:38 AM	@ Calronmoonflower: Quote: By the powers description you wouldn't gain the standard +1 pre die on fire and cold versions. Weird as it is they didn't put it in. When I posted the thread, I did not check the book firsthand, but wrote it from memory. You may be right (AFB right now). I'd handle it as another editing error of ComPsi. Anyway: 5d6+5 = 22.5; x3x2 = 135, not 93. You calculated 5d6 = 10.5. @ Suspect_Unusual: Yes, I know. Fully intended. @ PhaedrusXY: You win, Sir. I would offer you a cookie, but since you hit me with THE MOST BROKEN FEAT EWA, I can offer you only a few broken cookie-crumbs. So you get: ...:..:.:. @ ALL: Thank you for the input. I just wanted to prove, that psionics is NOT broken, even if I take the most specialized blaster to the top and compare it to core castings. Thank you for another thread, which may serve to oppose the opinion "Psionics are SOOO broken". @ Lycantrophomancer: How do you calculate the number of damage dice? I used this attack once, and our DM flat out ruled, that - since falling damage is capped to 20d6 (or was in former editions), the max. damage with this combo was 20d6 too. We did not question this ruling and went on with the game.
PhaedrusXY 11-20-07, 01:47 AM	@ Lycantrophomancer: How do you calculate the number of damage dice? I used this attack once, and our DM flat out ruled, that - since falling damage is capped to 20d6 (or was in former editions), the max. damage with this combo was 20d6 too. We did not question this ruling and went on with the game.The damage from height is capped at 20d6. The damage from weight is not capped. This also makes sense from a RL perspective, due to terminal velocity.
Mesiolan 11-20-07, 02:32 AM	Quote from SRD: Falling Objects Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects. Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen. For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage. For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen Quote end. Max. 20d6, if you ask me. Per Object, of course, so if you get hit by 15 chests full of boulders, each may deal up to 20d6, for a total of 300d6. But not millions of them (ignoring the hulking hurler rules). Of course it's not "realistic" to take "only" 20d6 HP if you get hit by a falling skyscraper, but what's "realistic" in D&D, anyways?
calronmoonflower 11-20-07, 03:24 AM	@ Calronmoonflower: [snip]Anyway: 5d6+5 = 22.5; x3x2 = 135, not 93. You calculated 5d6 = 10.5. The average for a d6 is 3.5. 3.5 X 6 = 17.5 (Dang, but I did say that I most likely made a math error.) 17.5 X6 = 135 135 X 1.5 = 202.5 So the challenge should be 202.5 average damage. When I posted the thread, I did not check the book firsthand, but wrote it from memory. You may be right (AFB right now). I'd handle it as another editing error of ComPsi. Error or not, it is the Rules As Written, so you should not change it to make a point. Anyway it might be intensional to prevent abuses. But as a counter point it is commonly said that the Complete Psionics was edited by monkeys on hallucinogens.
CrimsonDeath 11-20-07, 03:52 AM	But as a counter point it is commonly said that the Complete Psionics was edited by monkeys on hallucinogens. CPsi was edited?!
Mesiolan 11-20-07, 05:00 AM	@ Calronmoonflower: I agree. The challenge should have been 202+ HP, not 246+ HP. The mistake was not intentional - we are playing with the general assumption, that fire and cold deal +1 HP/die. I should have checked the power description first. I'll Seppuku later tonight. As I already said, the intent of the thread was exactly the opposite intend of this one: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=744465 I WANTED to show that there are many ways to reach the damage output of a specialized psion. That other classes may top him even if he is a very good blaster. Not that blasting is that good at higher levels, anyway. But that's another story.
The_Shaman 11-20-07, 05:01 AM	Of course, you think it could get it that bad on the first try?
PhaedrusXY 11-20-07, 12:55 PM	For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage). There are two separate sentences. One dealing with distance, and one dealing with weight. Only the one dealing with distance has an expressed limit.
Lycanthromancer 11-20-07, 02:04 PM	In addition, the telekinesis spell isn't making the boulders fall. They're thrusting them laterally, or vertically, not making them fall (which completely bypasses terminal velocity; think airplanes, rocketships, or racecars - both go faster than that, and sometimes even faster than the speed of sound). The spell specifically mentions 1d6 per 25 lbs for hard, dense objects (and you can't get much denser on a mundane, easily-findable object than large hunks of granite). I submit for your consideration: You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). There is no damage cap, other than the initial weight of the object hurled. In addition, your DM was using houserules; rules as written, we're up to millions of points of damage, and it's B0RK3N. Suffice to say that I agree with the houserule, but there you have it. :) Also, one of the best psionic direct-damage combos available without leaving you utterly spent for the day is a Split Psionic Ray'd, Extended energy conversion, shared with your psicrystal, using metamorphosis to turn your crystal buddy into something affected by mind-affecting effects, then schism to blast with 8*ML in energy damage per round. Even better with a few soulmelds from Magic of Incarnum and Greater Psionic Shot. Use energy wall to load up on energy damage well beforehand, or possibly even during battle (a sonic energy wall is a serviceable replacement for wind wall for protection from projectiles).
calronmoonflower 11-20-07, 02:45 PM	@ Calronmoonflower: I agree. The challenge should have been 202+ HP, not 246+ HP. The mistake was not intentional - we are playing with the general assumption, that fire and cold deal +1 HP/die. I should have checked the power description first. I'll Seppuku later tonight. I also made a math error up the page, so no big deal. As I already said, the intent of the thread was exactly the opposite intend of this one: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=744465 You mistyped the thread address. I WANTED to show that there are many ways to reach the damage output of a specialized psion. That other classes may top him even if he is a very good blaster. Not that blasting is that good at higher levels, anyway. But that's another story. :thumbsup: