Character help psion/sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character help psion/sorcerer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Flack Jack
04-24-07, 11:37 PM Ive finally found something hat feels right for my chracter background. I'll spare you the details but its essentially going between psion (or wilder) and sorcerer until becoming a cerebralmancer. I'm okay with not munkining but will it still be effective at higher levels? My freinds always go for melee so I'm all the support they got besides the druid.
Thanks in advanc for your advice.
AbyssKnight
04-25-07, 12:08 AM I would either go wilder/sorcerer, so that your casting and manifesting rely on the same stat and wild surge can help make up for losing manifester levels for multiclassing.

I would go Sorcerer 1/Wilder 4/Cerebremancer 10/Wilder +5
Take Precocious Adept at 1st level (Complete Arcane, lets you cast one 2nd level spell thus qualifying for the PrC with only one level of Sorcerer). I would also take Practiced Caster and Practiced Manifester (Complete Arcane and Complete Psionic respectively).

You end up casting as a Sorcerer 11 (caster level 15) and mainfest as Wilder 19 (manifester level 23, 26 with wild surge).
Flack Jack
04-25-07, 01:32 AM Wilder is probably a go now. Since I'm not human however I dont think I can go sorcerer 1 then straight wilder 4 without xp penalties or am I reading the book wrong?
SlanderPanic
04-25-07, 10:31 AM Wilder is a Very Bad Idea when working toward cerebremancer. Here's a build comparison, 18 levels with arcane 4/psionic 4/cerebremancer 10. These are all straight PHB/XPH builds. We'll leave Complete Psionic and Untapped Potential out of the equation for now.

Sorcerer 4/wilder 4/cerebremancer 10:
*Spells: As sorcerer 14 (known: 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1, per day: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, CL 14)
*Powers: As wilder 14 (8 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14)
*Other features: Wild surge +2, psychic enervation, elude touch, surging euphoria +1, call familiar
*Hit dice: 14d4+4d6 (49 average)
*Skills: 44 points
*Key ability: Cha/Cha

Sorcerer 4/psion 4/cerebremancer 10:
*Spells: As sorcerer 14 (known: 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1, per day: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, CL 14)
*Powers: As psion 14 (27 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14)
*Other features: Bonus psionic feat, discipline, call familiar
*Hit dice: 18d4 (45 average)
*Skills: 36 points (will be gaining at least 3 bonus points per level, however)
*Key ability: Cha/Int

Wizard 4/psion 4/ cerebremancer 10:
Spells: As wizard 14 (known: potentially unlimited, per day: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 , CL 14)
*Powers: As psion 14 (27 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14)
*Other features: Bonus psionic feat, call familiar, Scribe Scroll
*Hit dice: 18d4 (45 average)
*Skills: 36 points (will be gaining at least 3 bonus points per level, however)
*Key ability: Int

Essentially, it's not worth going wilder/cerebremancer because you'll have what's essentially a psion with less than a third of the powers and a weak wild surge which still leaves your manifester level two lower than a straight wilder 18 and gives you a 10% chance every time you do it of making you lose a tenth of your power points.

Sorcerer/psion/cerebremancer suffers from some multiple ability dependency, but it's really not that bad.
SlanderPanic
04-25-07, 10:32 AM Also, AbyssKnight is making a huge error in his ML calculations. Practiced Manifester does not allow your manifester level to exceed your hit dice. Your ML would be 23 after wild surge at 20th level. Compare that to a straight wilder, whose ML when surging can be up to 26.
Flack Jack
04-25-07, 05:12 PM Unfortunately my character is a shifter (-2 int and -2 cha) but I already made that decision and I'm sticking with it.

I'm clearly not understanding multiclassing right either.
So lets say I'm a lvl 4 sorcerer and a lvl 4 psion. I multiclass as cerebremancer till lvl 4 then have to juggle sorcerer, psion and cerebremancer one after the other to avoid xp penalties right?

Excelent point on the whole wilder/cerebremancer problem btw.
Crystalforged
04-25-07, 05:32 PM No, Prestige Classes such as Cerebremanced do not count when determining XP penalties for multiclassing.

Also since you're playing a shifter I would suggest looking at the Shifter Wilder substitution levels from Races of Eberron. The Wild Psychometabolism ability you gain from them at first level looks particularly nice, it allows you to treat select powers from the Egoist list along with those normally availible to you.
carnivore
04-25-07, 06:30 PM i agree with the Wilder/Sorceror...since you are already set to play it that way....but use this:
look here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a

Educated Wilder

You have had formal psionic training.
Level: 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.
Replaces: You lose the volatile mind class ability at all levels listed above.

Benefit: You have received some formal psionic training and as such, you have unlocked psionic powers most wilders never dream of. You gain the Expanded Knowledge feat at all of the above levels. But due to the training involved, your mind is not as untamed as most wilders and you lose the defensive ability volatile mind.

Mantled Wilder

Your focus allows you access to a psionic mantle.
Level: 1st and see below.
Replaces: You lose your elude touch class ability; also see below.

Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle from Complete Psionic. You replace the elude touch class ability at 2nd level with the mantle's granted ability and gain access to the powers on the mantle list. In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity. If you chose the Creation mantle, you would have to learn astral construct and minor creation at 1st and 2nd level, for example. You are free to choose all other powers from the psion/wilder list.

then do this...use a combination of AbyssKnights ideas and Crystalforgeds ideas...like this:

Shifter

Sorceror 1/ Educated Wilder (Shifter Sub level 1) 5/ Cerebremancer 10/ Anarchic Initiate 4

Feats:
Precocious Apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)
Practiced Caster(Sorceror)
Practiced Manifester(Wilder)

this gives you an Extra Feat: Expanded Knowledge: ( your choice) ...use it well

and you still have 4 feats to spend

you can choose powers from the Egoist Discipline List, Psion/Wilder list.... more than enough for versatility

:D
Flack Jack
04-26-07, 12:06 AM Its a very nice article. I seem to change my mind every time some one brings up a point but I think I have reached my conclusion. I'll go with the wilder. The exact wilder formula is yet uncertain but I'm sure it will be fine. Psion though tempting puts a large strain on my stats and wizard is a no go.

Also does complete arcane have a feat version of ignoring light armor spell failure like bards?
Bacris
04-26-07, 12:12 AM Hasn't it been stated multiple times that you can't use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for such prereqs?
calronmoonflower
04-26-07, 01:39 AM Unfortunately my character is a shifter (-2 int and -2 cha) but I already made that decision and I'm sticking with it.

Try the ardent. It's a good wis based manifester with lots of customization potential.

If you cerebremancer you will most likely need tap mantel.
You might consider multiclassing as a cleric instead of an arcane caster as the Int and Cha modifier will hurt you.
SlanderPanic
04-26-07, 02:00 PM It looks to me like you're planning a progression for an already-established character in a campaign. Why don't you tell us a bit more about the character as he currently stands before we spout further advice?
CrimsonDeath
04-26-07, 04:20 PM Hasn't it been stated multiple times that you can't use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for such prereqs?
The debate rages on. I'm of the opinion that it definitely doesn't work for the Mystic Theurge, since, when he gains level 2 divine spells, he is "able to cast second-level spells" (or "gains second-level spell slots", or however it's worded), and the function of the feat changes. However, a Psion 3 does not have any level 2 spells or spell slots, only powers and PP. The only way PA wouldn't work at that point is if you need level 2 spells, plural. By that line of reasoning, a Sorceror doesn't qualify until caster level 5.

As for Ardent, Psychic Theurge would preserve the ability score synergy. Not sure if Cleric works with Precocious Apprentice, but Ardent can still shave off one level with Practiced Manifester. (The Ardent specifically gains two level 1 powers at class level 1, according to the class description.) Be prepared to spend a couple of feats on Tap Mantle, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Flack Jack 04-24-07, 11:37 PM	Ive finally found something hat feels right for my chracter background. I'll spare you the details but its essentially going between psion (or wilder) and sorcerer until becoming a cerebralmancer. I'm okay with not munkining but will it still be effective at higher levels? My freinds always go for melee so I'm all the support they got besides the druid. Thanks in advanc for your advice.
AbyssKnight 04-25-07, 12:08 AM	I would either go wilder/sorcerer, so that your casting and manifesting rely on the same stat and wild surge can help make up for losing manifester levels for multiclassing. I would go Sorcerer 1/Wilder 4/Cerebremancer 10/Wilder +5 Take Precocious Adept at 1st level (Complete Arcane, lets you cast one 2nd level spell thus qualifying for the PrC with only one level of Sorcerer). I would also take Practiced Caster and Practiced Manifester (Complete Arcane and Complete Psionic respectively). You end up casting as a Sorcerer 11 (caster level 15) and mainfest as Wilder 19 (manifester level 23, 26 with wild surge).
Flack Jack 04-25-07, 01:32 AM	Wilder is probably a go now. Since I'm not human however I dont think I can go sorcerer 1 then straight wilder 4 without xp penalties or am I reading the book wrong?
SlanderPanic 04-25-07, 10:31 AM	Wilder is a Very Bad Idea when working toward cerebremancer. Here's a build comparison, 18 levels with arcane 4/psionic 4/cerebremancer 10. These are all straight PHB/XPH builds. We'll leave Complete Psionic and Untapped Potential out of the equation for now. Sorcerer 4/wilder 4/cerebremancer 10: Spells: As sorcerer 14 (known: 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1, per day: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, CL 14) Powers: As wilder 14 (8 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14) Other features: Wild surge +2, psychic enervation, elude touch, surging euphoria +1, call familiar Hit dice: 14d4+4d6 (49 average) Skills: 44 points Key ability: Cha/Cha Sorcerer 4/psion 4/cerebremancer 10: Spells: As sorcerer 14 (known: 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1, per day: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, CL 14) Powers: As psion 14 (27 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14) Other features: Bonus psionic feat, discipline, call familiar Hit dice: 18d4 (45 average) Skills: 36 points (will be gaining at least 3 bonus points per level, however) Key ability: Cha/Int Wizard 4/psion 4/ cerebremancer 10: Spells: As wizard 14 (known: potentially unlimited, per day: 4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2 , CL 14) Powers: As psion 14 (27 powers, 170 pp, max level known 7, ML 14) Other features: Bonus psionic feat, call familiar, Scribe Scroll Hit dice: 18d4 (45 average) Skills: 36 points (will be gaining at least 3 bonus points per level, however) *Key ability: Int Essentially, it's not worth going wilder/cerebremancer because you'll have what's essentially a psion with less than a third of the powers and a weak wild surge which still leaves your manifester level two lower than a straight wilder 18 and gives you a 10% chance every time you do it of making you lose a tenth of your power points. Sorcerer/psion/cerebremancer suffers from some multiple ability dependency, but it's really not that bad.
SlanderPanic 04-25-07, 10:32 AM	Also, AbyssKnight is making a huge error in his ML calculations. Practiced Manifester does not allow your manifester level to exceed your hit dice. Your ML would be 23 after wild surge at 20th level. Compare that to a straight wilder, whose ML when surging can be up to 26.
Flack Jack 04-25-07, 05:12 PM	Unfortunately my character is a shifter (-2 int and -2 cha) but I already made that decision and I'm sticking with it. I'm clearly not understanding multiclassing right either. So lets say I'm a lvl 4 sorcerer and a lvl 4 psion. I multiclass as cerebremancer till lvl 4 then have to juggle sorcerer, psion and cerebremancer one after the other to avoid xp penalties right? Excelent point on the whole wilder/cerebremancer problem btw.
Crystalforged 04-25-07, 05:32 PM	No, Prestige Classes such as Cerebremanced do not count when determining XP penalties for multiclassing. Also since you're playing a shifter I would suggest looking at the Shifter Wilder substitution levels from Races of Eberron. The Wild Psychometabolism ability you gain from them at first level looks particularly nice, it allows you to treat select powers from the Egoist list along with those normally availible to you.
carnivore 04-25-07, 06:30 PM	i agree with the Wilder/Sorceror...since you are already set to play it that way....but use this: look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a Educated Wilder You have had formal psionic training. Level: 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th. Replaces: You lose the volatile mind class ability at all levels listed above. Benefit: You have received some formal psionic training and as such, you have unlocked psionic powers most wilders never dream of. You gain the Expanded Knowledge feat at all of the above levels. But due to the training involved, your mind is not as untamed as most wilders and you lose the defensive ability volatile mind. Mantled Wilder Your focus allows you access to a psionic mantle. Level: 1st and see below. Replaces: You lose your elude touch class ability; also see below. Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle from Complete Psionic. You replace the elude touch class ability at 2nd level with the mantle's granted ability and gain access to the powers on the mantle list. In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity. If you chose the Creation mantle, you would have to learn astral construct and minor creation at 1st and 2nd level, for example. You are free to choose all other powers from the psion/wilder list. then do this...use a combination of AbyssKnights ideas and Crystalforgeds ideas...like this: Shifter Sorceror 1/ Educated Wilder (Shifter Sub level 1) 5/ Cerebremancer 10/ Anarchic Initiate 4 Feats: Precocious Apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a) Practiced Caster(Sorceror) Practiced Manifester(Wilder) this gives you an Extra Feat: Expanded Knowledge: ( your choice) ...use it well and you still have 4 feats to spend you can choose powers from the Egoist Discipline List, Psion/Wilder list.... more than enough for versatility :D
Flack Jack 04-26-07, 12:06 AM	Its a very nice article. I seem to change my mind every time some one brings up a point but I think I have reached my conclusion. I'll go with the wilder. The exact wilder formula is yet uncertain but I'm sure it will be fine. Psion though tempting puts a large strain on my stats and wizard is a no go. Also does complete arcane have a feat version of ignoring light armor spell failure like bards?
Bacris 04-26-07, 12:12 AM	Hasn't it been stated multiple times that you can't use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for such prereqs?
calronmoonflower 04-26-07, 01:39 AM	Unfortunately my character is a shifter (-2 int and -2 cha) but I already made that decision and I'm sticking with it. Try the ardent. It's a good wis based manifester with lots of customization potential. If you cerebremancer you will most likely need tap mantel. You might consider multiclassing as a cleric instead of an arcane caster as the Int and Cha modifier will hurt you.
SlanderPanic 04-26-07, 02:00 PM	It looks to me like you're planning a progression for an already-established character in a campaign. Why don't you tell us a bit more about the character as he currently stands before we spout further advice?
CrimsonDeath 04-26-07, 04:20 PM	Hasn't it been stated multiple times that you can't use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for such prereqs? The debate rages on. I'm of the opinion that it definitely doesn't work for the Mystic Theurge, since, when he gains level 2 divine spells, he is "able to cast second-level spells" (or "gains second-level spell slots", or however it's worded), and the function of the feat changes. However, a Psion 3 does not have any level 2 spells or spell slots, only powers and PP. The only way PA wouldn't work at that point is if you need level 2 spells, plural. By that line of reasoning, a Sorceror doesn't qualify until caster level 5. As for Ardent, Psychic Theurge would preserve the ability score synergy. Not sure if Cleric works with Precocious Apprentice, but Ardent can still shave off one level with Practiced Manifester. (The Ardent specifically gains two level 1 powers at class level 1, according to the class description.) Be prepared to spend a couple of feats on Tap Mantle, though.