| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| Red_Decker07-21-07, 03:00 AM | When using powers in conjunction with Improved unarmed strike do you use the claw powers or the weapon powers? Reading the SRD I found this: Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. So does Weapon of... work with unarmed strikes? If it does, does that mean psionic weapon can be used with your improved unarmed strike? http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| InkBlot07-21-07, 03:13 AM | Neither. Unarmed strikes are not manufactured, and they are not natural weapons either. They are natural, but they're not weapons naturaly (hence why you have to take a feat to make them not stink). Note that the rules change if you're playing a monk. Monk's are special. Their unarmed strikes are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons for the sake of what can affect them. Some of the claw powers state that they affect any natural weapon, and those can apply to a monk's unarmed strike. Most of the claw powers state that they only affect claws, and those do not apply to a monk's unarmed strike. All powers that affect a manufactured weapon can apply to a monk's unarmed strike. |
| Thomar_of_Uointer07-21-07, 12:27 PM | Yep, only if you're a monk. However, the claws of the beast-oriented psychic warrior build (somebody made an optimized CharOps version called "King of Smack") is a very good melee concept, and a bit more powerful offensively than the monk (but it doesn't have much stamina). Since your unarmed strike is a natural weapon, you can improve it with powers that affect natural weapons. However, keep in mind that some powers specifically affect claws, so you're probably better off going with claws of the beast. What kind of character build is this for? Fist of Zouken? |
| Red_Decker07-21-07, 12:58 PM | A soulbound weapon Variant psywar. His weapon is a katana and out of worry of him being without pp or a weapon I gave him Improved Unarmed Strike, I'm trying to figure out the best course of action for him. I'm not too concerned about optimization, I just want a character that's full of flavor, but useful at the same time. Well why not... we used a dice rolling method and I got this 53 point build. Maenad PsyWar 2 Str 18 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 13 Feats: Weapon Focus [Katana], Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge Powers Known: Call Weaponry 2nd power not picked yet Skills: Autohypnosis 4 Concentration 4 Jump 4 Search 4 Tumble 2 progression I think I'll go for: 3rd: Combat Expertise 5th: Mobility 6th: Superior Unarmed Strike 8th: Psionic Dodge 9th: Snap kick 11th: Cloak Master/Fighter [PHBII] 12th: Elusive Target 14th: Speed of Though 15th: Psionic Body 17th:? 18th:? 20th:? I may go Illithid Slayer for the last 5 or 6 levels, not really sure Powers... I have no idea what I want, 3rd level I'm snatching up Inertial Armor 4th animal affinity after that I don't know http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| Thomar_of_Uointer07-21-07, 01:04 PM | Oh, is that all? Just give him a gauntlet (they come free with any heavy and most medium armors), the effect is nearly the same. |
| Red_Decker07-21-07, 01:58 PM | Oh, is that all? Just give him a gauntlet (they come free with any heavy and most medium armors), the effect is nearly the same. That's really not the same thing... after all gauntlets are still subject to AoOs Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Besides stripped of his weapons and armor I want him to still be effective... in any situation. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| InkBlot07-21-07, 02:15 PM | If you want him to be ready in any situation, give him claws of the beast. It lasts hours per level and only requires a swift action to manifest, hide, or reactivate. But he's a Soulbound Warrior. If he's ever disarmed, his weapon will disappear immediately and he can call it again. If his weapon is ever sundered, he can call it from a time before it was sundered (or after it was repaired). gauntlets are still subject to AoOs Not if you have Improved Unarmed Strike. I don't believe they are in any situation, but I know they aren't if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, which your character does. |
| TheKeyofE07-21-07, 02:34 PM | If I was in Decker's place, I would be worried about running out of PP (a sad reality for psywars) and being unable to call my soulbound weapon. |
| Red_Decker07-21-07, 02:47 PM | If I was in Decker's place, I would be worried about running out of PP (a sad reality for psywars) and being unable to call my soulbound weapon. Bingo... we have a winner when I said any situation, I ment any situation. Out of PP or strip naked and left for dead. With the gauntlet wouldn't the damage be 1d3+str and any abilities on it? This would be fine at first but when I snag up Superior unarmed strike? What happens then. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| InkBlot07-21-07, 04:27 PM | If you have power points, then you can call your soulbound weapon and your unarmed strike hardly matters. If you don't have power points, then you couldn't buff your unarmed strike anyway. It looks like you don't ever have to worry about buffing your unarmed strikes. You might want to look at spiked gauntlets, which are a light weapon rather than an unarmed attack. They also have a large damage die. An unarmed strike is an unarmed attack, but not all unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes. A gauntlet is an unarmed attack, but not an unarmed strike. Superior Unarmed Strike only affects your unarmed strikes, not all unarmed attacks, so your attacks with gauntlets still only deal 1d3 + str + other bonuses. |
| Red_Decker08-05-07, 03:14 AM | I know this is kinda late but I felt dumb after noticing something today that I overlooked before... An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Seems that all the Weapon of... buffs would work with unarmed strike too. Unless I am somehow reading "An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon" wrong. Come to think of it weapon focus, weapon finesse and other feats have always counted unarmed strikes as weapons. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| TheKeyofE08-05-07, 08:57 AM | It's CONSIDERED a light weapon. That means you can finesse it, and also affects the penalties for TWF (although whether you actually can two-weapon fight with only fists is still sometimes debated). That doesn't mean it's actually a weapon in the same way a dagger or sword is a weapon. All the Claw of... or Weapon of... powers distinguish between manufactured weapons and natural weapons. Unarmed Strike is a natural weapon. Both the Metaphysical Weapon power and the Magic Weapon power in the PHB specifically say they can't be used on fists (the exception is a Monk's unarmed strike), and the other weapon buff powers are implied to follow suit. In other words, yes, you are reading it wrong. You couldn't use a Weapon of... power on your unarmed strikes unless you took a level of monk. |
| Red_Decker08-05-07, 12:43 PM | It's CONSIDERED a light weapon... <snipped> ok it's consideredcon·sid·er (kən-sĭd'ər) Pronunciation Key v. con·sid·ered, con·sid·er·ing, con·sid·ers <snipped> v. tr. 2. To think or deem to be; regard as. See Usage Note at as1. <snipped> it is regarded as being a light weapon. All the Claw of... or Weapon of... powers distinguish between manufactured weapons and natural weapons. Unarmed Strike is a natural weapon.let's take a look shall we? As claws of the vampire, except your weapon is affected as long as it remains in your grip or until this power’s duration expires. I looked through most of the weapon of... powers and they all say this or something similar. The only power I found that opposes my POV is power weapon which specifically calls out "Instead of Natural weapons". That is as far as I can see the only one that says anything about manufactured as opposed to melee. Both the Metaphysical Weapon power and the Magic Weapon power in the PHB specifically say they can't be used on fists (the exception is a Monk's unarmed strike), and the other weapon buff powers are implied to follow suit. Does it? Metaphysical weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.) Alternatively, you can affect up to fifty arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same type, and they have to be together (such as in the same quiver). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their enhancement when used. (Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than thrown weapons, for the purpose of this power.) You can’t manifest this power on most natural weapons, including a psychic warrior’s claw strike. This power does work on a weapon brought into being by the graft weapon power. Augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to 1 hour per level. In addition, for every 4 additional power points you spend, this power improves the weapon’s enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls by 1.Metaphysical weapon says nothing about unarmed strikes. It says about claws and graft weapon, but not unarmed strikes. It says most and not all. My belief is that this means that unarmed strike is considered a light weapon and not a natural weapon. If you have a claw attack (either from an actual natural weapon or from an effect such as claws of the beast) or a bite attack (which could be a natural bite attack or one you gain by means of the power bite of the wolf), you can use this power to provide one of your natural weapons a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. Augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to 1 hour per level. In addition, for every 4 additional power points you spend, this power improves the natural weapon’s enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls by 1. this power calls out 2 natural weapons, I agree this one would not allow for it. But then again I'm not entirely sure an unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon. In fact if you can point out where a rule says its a natural weapon, would you please point it out to me. because I see this: Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following: Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below). “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity) Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on). Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll. this: Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. And this: Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20. When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below. Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage. Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage. Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage. Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage. So by all means point out these powers that specifically say manufactured weapon, instead of melee because I only found one. And I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how the "ALWAYS" considered a light weapon doesn't apply here. I'm thinking that since the only place an unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon is with a monk's unarmed strike, the ability specifically says that though. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| Jhaelen08-05-07, 02:38 PM | And I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how the "ALWAYS" considered a light weapon doesn't apply here.You are completely on the wrong track. TheKeyofE is absolutely correct. Please take a deep breath and look again at the section you've been quoting from. Where is it? What is it supposed to explain? This always has to be read in that context. Take it out of its context and it's no longer correct. |
| Red_Decker08-05-07, 03:54 PM | You are completely on the wrong track. TheKeyofE is absolutely correct. Please take a deep breath and look again at the section you've been quoting from. Where is it? What is it supposed to explain? This always has to be read in that context. Take it out of its context and it's no longer correct. Ok where is it? the PHB meaning its the primary source for character rules. It is explaining rules regarding unarmed strike as how they are regarding to weapons effects. I am reading it correctly there really isn't any other way to read always considered... it means no exceptions no differences and nothing counters that statement other then what you've been saying which is basically RAI. Speculating what the authors ment. I know its a long post but did you read the whole thing? Because I've quoted more then just that and there is no indication that it is anything else. I've quoted every rule I could find based on unarmed strikes and natural weapons, the only thing I've found is that they are considered light weapons. I haven't found anything to indicate otherwise. Go ahead point it out using the rules how what I am saying is incorrect because I have yet to see real RAW proof that I am actually wrong. If you can give me RAW reasons I'll give, but until then I haven't seen anything countering what I've said. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| SilentOne08-05-07, 04:12 PM | Actually, your quote from metaphysical weapon actually led me to believe more strongly that it's a natural weapon, using your same rationale. "Can't be used with most" meaning claws or bite, but does work with unarmed strikes, which is why they didn't say "can't be used with any." Further, look at the last section in unarmed strike damage again: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on). Emphasis mine. When you later look at the unarmed strike saying it always counts as a light weapon, it's referring back to this, where it elaborates to mean "for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on", not "for purposes of enchanting, casting spells on, or otherwise deeming it a manufactured weapon" Also, look at your quote on natural weapons again. "Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below." Again, not "all natural weapon types", but "the most common". How many monsters in the MM have you found with unarmed attacks? Way less than any using any of the listed attacks, making a clear candidate for an uncommon one, thus not getting listed. Further, since you never craft a fist and it's part of the body, what leads you to believe that an unarmed strike could possibly be a manufactured weapon and not a natural attack (aside from that one word, "always", that you're taking out of context)? |
| Red_Decker08-05-07, 10:18 PM | I never said it was a manufactured weapon... But I believe it should be considered to be a weapon and have seen no proof to the contrary. The benefit granted by Improved Unarmed Strike shows a measure of skill used in its application in fact since it carries its own feat as opposed to sharing a feat with other weapons it requires only slightly less skill then learning a spiked chain or bastard sword or any other exotic weapon. And only slightly less skill required to learn all martial weapons. Does an unarmed striker that is not a monk gain benefit from improved natural weapon? Do unarmed Strikes follow the same pattern of attacks as natural weapons or manufactured? Is it listen amongst weapons in the equipment section. To tell you the truth I'm thinking a healthy middle ground would be a new feat because I'm not convinced that a unarmed strike shouldn't be considered a weapon Greater Unarmed Strike Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus [Unarmed strike] Benefit: Possessor of this feat can treat his unarmed strikes as either a manufactured weapon or natural weapon for all effects or abilities, and their unarmed strike is now considered a masterwork weapon granting a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls when using an unarmed strike attack. Special: A monk qualifies for this feat by having Weapon Focus[unarmed strike]. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |