Claws of the Beast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Claws of the Beast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lycanthromancer
04-13-08, 12:41 PM Claws of the beast. In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) it states that you can't make claw attacks when you use other attack forms. But it also says they work exactly like other natural attacks.

Is this a stupid caveat, or is it just me?
calronmoonflower
04-13-08, 06:17 PM Is this a stupid caveat, or is it just me?

Both (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). :rolleyes:

It is reiterating how natural attacks work and is slightly off with it. Once again psionics falls prey to poorly thought out wording.
Scion of Coldshard
04-14-08, 07:50 PM Just make sure to use your claw attacks first and then attack with anything else you like ;)
Lycanthromancer
04-14-08, 08:34 PM It does say that if you attack with any other attack form, you cannot make claw attacks during that round. It doesn't mention 'before' or 'after,' so if you've used claw attacks, you cannot also make other attacks later, because you've already used your claws to attack, so if you use other attacks later, that nullifies your ability to do claw attacks early on.

So you can either make claw attacks or use other attack forms during a round, but not both.

Really, really stupid caveat.
carnivore
04-14-08, 09:19 PM the best way to get extra attacks from Claws of the beast..... ROBILARS GAMBIT .... you get to attack with whatever weapon you want... even better with Double Hit

your initial Attack will be ok, but ALL of your AoOs are at FULL BAB .... with a high Dex you can easily have far more attacks than an enemy can take before you run out of AoOs

:D
Scion of Coldshard
04-15-08, 01:41 AM if you've used claw attacks, you cannot also make other attacks later, because you've already used your claws to attack, so if you use other attacks later, that nullifies your ability to do claw attacks early on.

You are way over thinking it and asking for time traveling information ;) dont do that!

If you have attacked with other weapons then you cannot use the claws, but once you have attacked with them nothing says you cant attack with other weapons.

There really isnt any point for the limitation to begin with and the easy work around just gets past the stupidity of part of the power ;)
calronmoonflower
04-15-08, 04:12 AM If you have attacked with other weapons then you cannot use the claws, but once you have attacked with them nothing says you cant attack with other weapons.

I reread it. It says that you can make a full-attack with both claws and that replaces your normal routine. It does not say however that you cannot perform a full-attack with other weapons and follow up with both claws as a secondary attack.

If I remember right many monster entries has several different full attack option, this one could just be defining one of them.
CrimsonDeath
04-15-08, 12:33 PM If I remember right many monster entries has several different full attack option, this one could just be defining one of them.

Good point. The crocodile, for example, can't use a bite and tail slap against the same target.
Tsuul
04-15-08, 12:59 PM There is some confusion going on here.

Your claws work just like the natural weapons of many monsters. You can make an attack with one claw or a full attack with two claws at your normal attack bonus, replacing your normal attack routine. You take no penalties for two-weapon fighting, and neither attack is a secondary attack. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks—you simply have two claw attacks at your normal attack bonus. This stuff is just going over the rules for natural weapons, and is probably assuming that the character will only be using the claws.

If you attack with a manufactured weapon or another natural attack, you can’t make any claw attacks in that round.Is the :censored: line. True you can technically claw attack first, but I believe that is directly against what Bruce is doing here.
He's :censored: dumbing the power down on purpose. He has got to know that you can mix natural attacks together with other natural attacks and with manufactured weapons. Right?
Scion of Coldshard
04-15-08, 02:29 PM I reread it. It says that you can make a full-attack with both claws and that replaces your normal routine.

I have the full text right here and it most certainly doesnt say that.

It does not say however that you cannot perform a full-attack with other weapons and follow up with both claws as a secondary attack.

And it definitely does say that if you attack with other weapons you cannot follow up with the claw attacks.
Lycanthromancer
04-15-08, 03:03 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm):
You can make an attack with one claw or a full attack with two claws at your normal attack bonus, replacing your normal attack routine.
Scion of Coldshard
04-15-08, 03:13 PM From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm):

I had thought we were still talking about the part at the end instead of the part which is merely restating the basic information about natural weapons in general. ;p
CrimsonDeath
04-15-08, 07:06 PM I had thought we were still talking about the part at the end instead of the part which is merely restating the basic information about natural weapons in general. ;p

Having a pair of claws doesn't generally replace your normal attack routine.
Scion of Coldshard
04-15-08, 09:07 PM Having a pair of claws doesn't generally replace your normal attack routine.

It does if you word it the way they did in the power.

The whole thing could've been put forward in a much clearer, and shorter, way but whoever did it was apparently having an overly wordy day that led to a pile of bad ;)
CrimsonDeath
04-15-08, 09:46 PM It does if you word it the way they did in the power.

Claws aren't generally the result of a spell or power.
Scion of Coldshard
04-15-08, 09:57 PM Claws aren't generally the result of a spell or power.

I like pie.
CrimsonDeath
04-16-08, 03:04 AM I like pie.

And that's relevant to the discussion how?
Lycanthromancer
04-16-08, 03:25 AM And that's relevant to the discussion how?Pie is always relevant.

At least it's better than cake.

The cake is a lie.
Scion of Coldshard
04-16-08, 01:37 PM And that's relevant to the discussion how?

It was just as relevant as the post that I quoted.

Plus, it is pie, everyone likes pie! ;)
CrimsonDeath
04-16-08, 04:58 PM It was just as relevant as the post that I quoted.
If so, then that's your fault for leading me off on a tangent.
Scion of Coldshard
04-16-08, 05:21 PM If so, then that's your fault for leading me off on a tangent.

Hmm.. so my on topic points forced you off of the cliff of 'things that dont have any relevance to the topic'? Interesting.. my psychic powers are strong this week! ;)
CrimsonDeath
04-17-08, 03:36 AM Hmm.. so my on topic points forced you off of the cliff of 'things that dont have any relevance to the topic'? Interesting.. my psychic powers are strong this week! ;)

Okay, I'm going to assume you're not intentionally trolling, and you simply have no clue how aggravating you've been.

Now, would you like me to explain, post by post, why my comments regarding the difference between the claws created by Claws of the Beast and normal natural weapons are on topic in a thread about the difference between the claws created by Claws of the Beast and normal natural weapons? Or would you like to just abandon this particular branch of the discussion?
Lycanthromancer
04-17-08, 12:15 PM Okay, back on track.

Normal natural attacks do not replace your regular attack routine unless your natural weapons use the limbs in which you would wield weapons that you use in your regular attack routine. For example, if you have two hands that have claws that you use for your natural attacks, you cannot use your claws and the weapons in them at the same time (though Quick Draw would indicate otherwise). Otherwise, if you have a bite attack or something, your natural attacks are appended to the end of your attack routine. A monk 6/thri-kreen doing a regular flurry, for instance, would get unarmed strike/unarmed strike/claw/claw/claw/claw/bite, since none of his flurry requires that he use his hands for the attack.

In this case, though, the claws of the beast specificaly state that they replace your normal attack routine (regardless of what that routine is), and that they cannot be used during a round in which other kinds of attacks are made. Since it also states that they work just like regular natural attacks, this is self-contradictory.

How many of us are willing to put this question to CustServe and beg for an appendation to the XPH errata?
Scion of Coldshard
04-17-08, 01:38 PM Normal natural attacks do not replace your regular attack routine unless your natural weapons use the limbs in which you would wield weapons that you use in your regular attack routine. For example, if you have two hands that have claws that you use for your natural attacks, you cannot use your claws and the weapons in them at the same time

And there you have it ;)

That is why the power is worded poorly, by what they said in the power and where the sentence in question now is located they meant one thing but didnt explain it in exactly the same way as the normal rules and so created a bit of confusion. Essentially they said something that kindof means the same thing and that can wind up meaning the same thing in most circumstances but did a poor job of writing it out.

they cannot be used during a round in which other kinds of attacks are made.

Close.. if you make an attack with other things then the claws cannot be used, but by the way it is worded if you make attacks with the claws nothing prevents you from making attacks with other things afterwards..

Since it also states that they work just like regular natural attacks, this is self-contradictory.

I would say that since the, 'replace attack routine' is in the same paragraph as the 'just like regular natural attacks' it is fairly clear that they meant one thing and then worded the next part poorly. In a good portion of the cases they are identical but not all, sloppy word choice.
Tsuul
04-17-08, 02:45 PM Unfortunately, limiting the power needlessly is something Bruce is known for.
Take a gander at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biteoftheWolf.htm (Bite of the Wolf)

It's a lesser power, has all the proper language in place and mixes attacks properly.

Did they [the writers] fear the weapon + Bite of the Wolf + Claws of the Beast + Form of Doom combo that bad?
Scion of Coldshard
04-17-08, 03:13 PM Unfortunately, limiting the power needlessly is something Bruce is known for.
Take a gander at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biteoftheWolf.htm (Bite of the Wolf)

It's a lesser power, has all the proper language in place and mixes attacks properly.

Did they [the writers] fear the weapon + Bite of the Wolf + Claws of the Beast + Form of Doom combo that bad?

My guess is that there were different writers for different powers and/or different editors (or an editor that tried to make claws of the beast 'clearer' and failed miserably).

Check out form of doom ;)

This power functions only while you inhabit your base form (for instance, you can’t be metamorphed or polymorphed into another form, though you can use claws of the beast, and bite of the wolf in conjunction with this power for your regular attacks), and while your mind resides within your own body.

Emphasis mine ;)
Tsuul
04-17-08, 03:53 PM Nice catch. I was afraid to even look at Form of Doom out of fear it would say a third option.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 04-13-08, 12:41 PM	Claws of the beast. In the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) it states that you can't make claw attacks when you use other attack forms. But it also says they work exactly like other natural attacks. Is this a stupid caveat, or is it just me?
calronmoonflower 04-13-08, 06:17 PM	Is this a stupid caveat, or is it just me? Both (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). :rolleyes: It is reiterating how natural attacks work and is slightly off with it. Once again psionics falls prey to poorly thought out wording.
Scion of Coldshard 04-14-08, 07:50 PM	Just make sure to use your claw attacks first and then attack with anything else you like ;)
Lycanthromancer 04-14-08, 08:34 PM	It does say that if you attack with any other attack form, you cannot make claw attacks during that round. It doesn't mention 'before' or 'after,' so if you've used claw attacks, you cannot also make other attacks later, because you've already used your claws to attack, so if you use other attacks later, that nullifies your ability to do claw attacks early on. So you can either make claw attacks or use other attack forms during a round, but not both. Really, really stupid caveat.
carnivore 04-14-08, 09:19 PM	the best way to get extra attacks from Claws of the beast..... ROBILARS GAMBIT .... you get to attack with whatever weapon you want... even better with Double Hit your initial Attack will be ok, but ALL of your AoOs are at FULL BAB .... with a high Dex you can easily have far more attacks than an enemy can take before you run out of AoOs :D
Scion of Coldshard 04-15-08, 01:41 AM	if you've used claw attacks, you cannot also make other attacks later, because you've already used your claws to attack, so if you use other attacks later, that nullifies your ability to do claw attacks early on. You are way over thinking it and asking for time traveling information ;) dont do that! If you have attacked with other weapons then you cannot use the claws, but once you have attacked with them nothing says you cant attack with other weapons. There really isnt any point for the limitation to begin with and the easy work around just gets past the stupidity of part of the power ;)
calronmoonflower 04-15-08, 04:12 AM	If you have attacked with other weapons then you cannot use the claws, but once you have attacked with them nothing says you cant attack with other weapons. I reread it. It says that you can make a full-attack with both claws and that replaces your normal routine. It does not say however that you cannot perform a full-attack with other weapons and follow up with both claws as a secondary attack. If I remember right many monster entries has several different full attack option, this one could just be defining one of them.
CrimsonDeath 04-15-08, 12:33 PM	If I remember right many monster entries has several different full attack option, this one could just be defining one of them. Good point. The crocodile, for example, can't use a bite and tail slap against the same target.
Tsuul 04-15-08, 12:59 PM	There is some confusion going on here. Your claws work just like the natural weapons of many monsters. You can make an attack with one claw or a full attack with two claws at your normal attack bonus, replacing your normal attack routine. You take no penalties for two-weapon fighting, and neither attack is a secondary attack. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks—you simply have two claw attacks at your normal attack bonus. This stuff is just going over the rules for natural weapons, and is probably assuming that the character will only be using the claws. If you attack with a manufactured weapon or another natural attack, you can’t make any claw attacks in that round.Is the :censored: line. True you can technically claw attack first, but I believe that is directly against what Bruce is doing here. He's :censored: dumbing the power down on purpose. He has got to know that you can mix natural attacks together with other natural attacks and with manufactured weapons. Right?
Scion of Coldshard 04-15-08, 02:29 PM	I reread it. It says that you can make a full-attack with both claws and that replaces your normal routine. I have the full text right here and it most certainly doesnt say that. It does not say however that you cannot perform a full-attack with other weapons and follow up with both claws as a secondary attack. And it definitely does say that if you attack with other weapons you cannot follow up with the claw attacks.
Lycanthromancer 04-15-08, 03:03 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm): You can make an attack with one claw or a full attack with two claws at your normal attack bonus, replacing your normal attack routine.
Scion of Coldshard 04-15-08, 03:13 PM	From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm): I had thought we were still talking about the part at the end instead of the part which is merely restating the basic information about natural weapons in general. ;p
CrimsonDeath 04-15-08, 07:06 PM	I had thought we were still talking about the part at the end instead of the part which is merely restating the basic information about natural weapons in general. ;p Having a pair of claws doesn't generally replace your normal attack routine.
Scion of Coldshard 04-15-08, 09:07 PM	Having a pair of claws doesn't generally replace your normal attack routine. It does if you word it the way they did in the power. The whole thing could've been put forward in a much clearer, and shorter, way but whoever did it was apparently having an overly wordy day that led to a pile of bad ;)
CrimsonDeath 04-15-08, 09:46 PM	It does if you word it the way they did in the power. Claws aren't generally the result of a spell or power.
Scion of Coldshard 04-15-08, 09:57 PM	Claws aren't generally the result of a spell or power. I like pie.
CrimsonDeath 04-16-08, 03:04 AM	I like pie. And that's relevant to the discussion how?
Lycanthromancer 04-16-08, 03:25 AM	And that's relevant to the discussion how?Pie is always relevant. At least it's better than cake. The cake is a lie.
Scion of Coldshard 04-16-08, 01:37 PM	And that's relevant to the discussion how? It was just as relevant as the post that I quoted. Plus, it is pie, everyone likes pie! ;)
CrimsonDeath 04-16-08, 04:58 PM	It was just as relevant as the post that I quoted. If so, then that's your fault for leading me off on a tangent.
Scion of Coldshard 04-16-08, 05:21 PM	If so, then that's your fault for leading me off on a tangent. Hmm.. so my on topic points forced you off of the cliff of 'things that dont have any relevance to the topic'? Interesting.. my psychic powers are strong this week! ;)
CrimsonDeath 04-17-08, 03:36 AM	Hmm.. so my on topic points forced you off of the cliff of 'things that dont have any relevance to the topic'? Interesting.. my psychic powers are strong this week! ;) Okay, I'm going to assume you're not intentionally trolling, and you simply have no clue how aggravating you've been. Now, would you like me to explain, post by post, why my comments regarding the difference between the claws created by Claws of the Beast and normal natural weapons are on topic in a thread about the difference between the claws created by Claws of the Beast and normal natural weapons? Or would you like to just abandon this particular branch of the discussion?
Lycanthromancer 04-17-08, 12:15 PM	Okay, back on track. Normal natural attacks do not replace your regular attack routine unless your natural weapons use the limbs in which you would wield weapons that you use in your regular attack routine. For example, if you have two hands that have claws that you use for your natural attacks, you cannot use your claws and the weapons in them at the same time (though Quick Draw would indicate otherwise). Otherwise, if you have a bite attack or something, your natural attacks are appended to the end of your attack routine. A monk 6/thri-kreen doing a regular flurry, for instance, would get unarmed strike/unarmed strike/claw/claw/claw/claw/bite, since none of his flurry requires that he use his hands for the attack. In this case, though, the claws of the beast specificaly state that they replace your normal attack routine (regardless of what that routine is), and that they cannot be used during a round in which other kinds of attacks are made. Since it also states that they work just like regular natural attacks, this is self-contradictory. How many of us are willing to put this question to CustServe and beg for an appendation to the XPH errata?
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-08, 01:38 PM	Normal natural attacks do not replace your regular attack routine unless your natural weapons use the limbs in which you would wield weapons that you use in your regular attack routine. For example, if you have two hands that have claws that you use for your natural attacks, you cannot use your claws and the weapons in them at the same time And there you have it ;) That is why the power is worded poorly, by what they said in the power and where the sentence in question now is located they meant one thing but didnt explain it in exactly the same way as the normal rules and so created a bit of confusion. Essentially they said something that kindof means the same thing and that can wind up meaning the same thing in most circumstances but did a poor job of writing it out. they cannot be used during a round in which other kinds of attacks are made. Close.. if you make an attack with other things then the claws cannot be used, but by the way it is worded if you make attacks with the claws nothing prevents you from making attacks with other things afterwards.. Since it also states that they work just like regular natural attacks, this is self-contradictory. I would say that since the, 'replace attack routine' is in the same paragraph as the 'just like regular natural attacks' it is fairly clear that they meant one thing and then worded the next part poorly. In a good portion of the cases they are identical but not all, sloppy word choice.
Tsuul 04-17-08, 02:45 PM	Unfortunately, limiting the power needlessly is something Bruce is known for. Take a gander at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biteoftheWolf.htm (Bite of the Wolf) It's a lesser power, has all the proper language in place and mixes attacks properly. Did they [the writers] fear the weapon + Bite of the Wolf + Claws of the Beast + Form of Doom combo that bad?
Scion of Coldshard 04-17-08, 03:13 PM	Unfortunately, limiting the power needlessly is something Bruce is known for. Take a gander at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/biteoftheWolf.htm (Bite of the Wolf) It's a lesser power, has all the proper language in place and mixes attacks properly. Did they [the writers] fear the weapon + Bite of the Wolf + Claws of the Beast + Form of Doom combo that bad? My guess is that there were different writers for different powers and/or different editors (or an editor that tried to make claws of the beast 'clearer' and failed miserably). Check out form of doom ;) This power functions only while you inhabit your base form (for instance, you can’t be metamorphed or polymorphed into another form, though you can use claws of the beast, and bite of the wolf in conjunction with this power for your regular attacks), and while your mind resides within your own body. Emphasis mine ;)
Tsuul 04-17-08, 03:53 PM	Nice catch. I was afraid to even look at Form of Doom out of fear it would say a third option.