Cloud Mind, why must you suck so? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cloud Mind, why must you suck so? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:18 PM Okay so I just got 6th level powers. I looked at cloud mind, mass thinking "Hey, this could help my telepath get in places undetected!"

Except it doesn't target you, it targets other creatures making you invisible to them. But only if they make a will save. And only if ALL of them make a will save. And anyone else you meet needs another manifesting of it, and you hope THEY make the save too.

Wow... that blows.

Any suggestions on how to improve cloud mind, mass so its worth a 6th level power slot?
rilem
07-24-07, 02:31 PM You're a telepath. Why not just charm somebody to take you inside, explaining to anybody that you meet that they're giving you a tour.
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:32 PM You're a telepath. Why not just charm somebody to take you inside, explaining to anybody that you meet that they're giving you a tour.

There are moments when a well-placed dominate is appropriate. Other times a simple "You cannot see me" is much more helpful.
Lycanthromancer
07-24-07, 02:33 PM Something for you. Let me know how you like it:Cloud Mind (A)*
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 2
Display: None
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft +5 ft/2 levels)
Target: One creature/level
Duration: 1 min/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3

You make yourself completely undetectable to the subjects affected by this power by erasing all awareness of your presence from its mind. This power has the following effects.

First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It can not even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It can not pinpoint your location by any means.

Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any overt attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends.

If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the subject’s environment—for example, attacking a creature aside from the subject or moving a large or attended object the subject can see—the subject immediately gains a new saving throw against the power. An ally of the subject creature that is able to see or perceive you can use a move action to warn the subject and thereby grant it a new saving throw.

If the subject was aware of your presence prior to your manifestation of this power, it must make a secondary Will save or forget that you were there. Its most recent memories are vague and shadowy, and it goes about its business as if you had not entered its awareness to begin with.

Augment: 1. For every additional power point you spend, you can affect another creature within range.

2. If you spend 4 additional power points, the duration of this power becomes “10 min/level.”

3. [Telepath] If you spend 4 additional power points, the target of this power becomes “You, and one creature + one creature/level,” with the additional creature becoming the beneficiary of the invisibility effect as well.

3a. For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature within range to be the beneficiary of this power.

4. If you spend 8 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “100 ft,” its area becomes “100 ft burst,” its duration becomes “Instantaneous and 1 min/level; see text,” and its target becomes “All creatures within range.” and it hides you from all affected creatures for the duration of the power. This is often called the mass cloud mind augment.

4a. For every additional power point you spend, its range increases by 10 ft.

5. [Telepath] If you spend 12 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “Personal; see text,” its target becomes “You; see text,” its duration becomes “Concentration + 1 round/level, and 1 min/level; see text,” its area becomes “60 ft emanation, centered on you,” and its saving throw becomes “Will negates; see text.” You emanate a field of elusive forgetfulness that moves with you, erasing the memory of your presence from all creatures within range. Everything within the field must make a Will save or be affected by the cloud mind power, using its normal duration (1 min/level). Any creature that makes its save against this effect is exempt from this manifestation of cloud mind for 5 rounds, after which it must make yet another save against it. This is often called the mobile mass cloud mind augment.

5a. For every additional power point you spend, the radius of this power increases by 5 ft, and you can affect one other creature so that it, too, is forgotten (this creature is not affected by the cloud mind effect). All creatures so affected must remain within the emanation to receive its benefits, and must abide by all of the rules to remain hidden.

5b. For every 2 additional power points you spend, the interval between saves decreases by 1 round (to a minimum of 1 round).

5c. [Telepath] If you spend 2 additional power points, this power gains the compulsion descriptor. The target of this power becomes “You and 1 creature; see text.” You are hidden as normal, but the other creature affected is both the subject and the object of the cloud mind effect (in other words, it is hidden from everyone but you, and forgets that its ‘self’ exists). While so affected, it follows you docilely, or remains stationary, at your direction. It can not take any other actions (without using extraordinary means, such as the Unconditional Power feat). It loses the ability to make Reflex saves, and is considered flat-footed for the duration of the effect. It makes Fortitude and Will saves normally. Any kind of effect you (or another creature you affect with cloud mind) levy directly against it (such as the manifestation of a power or an attack) immediately grants it another Will save to negate the effect.

5ca. For every 5 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature in this manner.

For every 2 power points you spend on this power (via one of these augmentations, or simply by spending additional power points), this power’s save DC increases by 1.By the way, any augment with an alpha character (such as 5a) requires its parent augment. Those with two alpha characters require both parent augments to work.

:D
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:39 PM Something for you. Let me know how you like it: <snip>

By the way, any augment with an alpha character (such as 5a) requires its parent augment. Those with two alpha characters require both parent augments to work.

:D

Its incredibly complex. Seems like it would have been simpler to make a separate cloud mind restricted to the telepathy discipline.

That said, it does look much much better and scales well with level. Is there any way to make it a simpler read for presenting to a DM?
Lycanthromancer
07-24-07, 02:42 PM Just remove a few of the augments.
rilem
07-24-07, 02:46 PM Other times a simple "You cannot see me" is much more helpful.

I agree, but frankly I think Cloud Mind is pretty good as-is — it beats blindsight, which is pretty strong — and I think the multiple saves are appropriate.

If you wanted to make a Psychokinesis-based Psionic Invisibility (a la Duergar), that'd make more sense, as it's balanced by the lack of immunity to blindsight, etc.
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:50 PM I wouldn't mind the saves so much if the effect traveled with the manifester. I like lycan's version because it preserves the saving throws and such but allows it to be an emanation effect once you're high enough level to channel 15 power points into it and a burst effect when you can put 11 in. It looks much more usable that way. The original version, IMHO, was not worthy of a 6th level power.

Heck even a "For 8 extra points you may manifest this power as a swift action" would be nice so you could try to save your butt when someone walks around a corner.
Millenia
07-24-07, 03:38 PM 3. [Telepath] If you spend 4 additional power points, the target of this power becomes “You, and one creature + one creature/level,” with the additional creature becoming the beneficiary of the invisibility effect as well.

3a. For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature within range to be the beneficiary of this power.
From what I can interpret, this power gives the manifester and one other person the benefits from being invisible to the other "one creature/level" targets... Right? I think the benefactors of this power - the manifester and the other person - do not really count as targets.

4. If you spend 8 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “100 ft,” its area becomes “100 ft burst,” its duration becomes “Instantaneous and 1 min/level; see text,” and its target becomes “All creatures within range.” and it hides you from all affected creatures for the duration of the power. This is often called the mass cloud mind augment.
An SEP Field! Neat!
Lycanthromancer
07-24-07, 04:00 PM From what I can interpret, this power gives the manifester and one other person the benefits from being invisible to the other "one creature/level" targets... Right? I think the benefactors of this power - the manifester and the other person - do not really count as targets.Totally and 100% correct.
An SEP Field! Neat!Indeed.
Vharuck
07-24-07, 07:02 PM It is inferior in many ways to invisibility, but it wasn't created purely for mechanics. It's psionic to tap into people's minds and make them ignorant of any sensory stimulation from you; it's arcane to simply not be visible.
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 07:06 PM It is inferior in many ways to invisibility, but it wasn't created purely for mechanics. It's psionic to tap into people's minds and make them ignorant of any sensory stimulation from you; it's arcane to simply not be visible.

I'm not complaining because it doesn't work the same as invisibility, nor am I asking for it to be a carbon copy. I like the flavor I just do not feel its worthy of being a level 6 power.
Vharuck
07-24-07, 07:08 PM I'm not complaining because it doesn't work the same as invisibility, nor am I asking for it to be a carbon copy. I like the flavor I just do not feel its worthy of being a level 6 power.

Oh. Then I totally agree with you.
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 07:45 PM How about this:

Suppression Field
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepathy 6
Display: Me
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 100ft Emanation Centered on You
Target: You
Duration: Concentration up to 1min/level
Saving Throw: Special (See Text)
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 11

Through intense concentration, you project a telepathic field which induces a hypnotic trance in all non-allied creatures in the area which have an intelligence score.

This hypnotic trance suppresses any trace of your presence from their minds. Each round you concentrate on this power you must roll an autohypnosis skill check to determine the strength of the hypnotic field. Each creature within the field may then oppose your check with either a concentration check or a will saving throw, whichever is higher.

To any affected creature you are invisible and inaudible. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means.

Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment.

For example, you could open a door and slip out without the
subject noticing, but if you opened a door and let in allies that the subject can see, it would note the arrival of those allies.

You could remove a hand-sized, unattended object from the subject’s presence without risking notice, but moving a larger
object or an attended object might end the effect (see below).

If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends. If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the subject’s environment—for example, attacking a creature aside from the subject or moving a large or attended object the subject can see—the subject immediately gains a new saving throw against the power.

Any comments welcome. Too powerful, not powerful enough? I tried to preserve the flavor while making it more useful. By allowing either concentration or will saves, Its easier for those with low will saves to oppose the power. Also by making the save DC an autohypnosis roll rather than the standard save DC, it feels more like a mind reaching out to dampen its presence in other minds around it. Some rounds you will falter and the check will be low, some rounds it will be very high. Makes it a bit less likely that someone will break through, but leaves the possibility open.

Compared to Invisibility...

Pros:

-Will avoid even true seeing and such things as blind sight, since its not an illusion and it directly affects the mind of the creature.
-Better psionics flavor than a carbon-copy invis power.

Cons:

-Only affects things out to 100ft.
-Possible to break through the field without direct contact, unlike invis which simply works or doesn't.
KrisTheGreat
07-25-07, 03:05 AM i totally agree cloud mind just sucks the save means it will only ever possible work on your warrior types and those are the opponents you are trying to avoid
AntiDjinn
07-25-07, 03:44 AM Okay so I just got 6th level powers. I looked at cloud mind, mass thinking "Hey, this could help my telepath get in places undetected!"

Except it doesn't target you, it targets other creatures making you invisible to them. But only if they make a will save. And only if ALL of them make a will save. And anyone else you meet needs another manifesting of it, and you hope THEY make the save too.

The power works only if they fail the save, if they make it then they are unaffected.

The fact that it requires a Will save is not even what particularly sucks about (it is after all a mind-affecting power, and it defeats even True Seeing) it is the fact that the DC of the Will save can not be augmented that really sucks. At 11th level you might actually get good use out of the power; you will routinely beat the saves of opponents with poor Will save mods and have a good chance of affecting someone with a good Will save. Within a few levels that is not the case; foe's save mods increase with CR and the DC of MCM is going nowhere. If you take the power at all, buyer's remorse generally sets in within 4 character levels (especially considering it only takes 1 out of the crowd resisting to spoil your whole day).

Anyway, even a better Cloud Mind should be lower level (as in, it should just be an augment option on regular Cloud Mind). If you beat the Will save of everyone around you, then you could have fried their minds with a different power (in which case none of them will see you anymore) or dominated or charmed the lot of them. Even if it worked more consistently, the outcome is not worth 6th level.
forsaken1111
07-25-07, 03:52 AM The power works only if they fail the save, if they make it then they are unaffected.

You know what I meant. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:18 PM	Okay so I just got 6th level powers. I looked at cloud mind, mass thinking "Hey, this could help my telepath get in places undetected!" Except it doesn't target you, it targets other creatures making you invisible to them. But only if they make a will save. And only if ALL of them make a will save. And anyone else you meet needs another manifesting of it, and you hope THEY make the save too. Wow... that blows. Any suggestions on how to improve cloud mind, mass so its worth a 6th level power slot?
rilem 07-24-07, 02:31 PM	You're a telepath. Why not just charm somebody to take you inside, explaining to anybody that you meet that they're giving you a tour.
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:32 PM	You're a telepath. Why not just charm somebody to take you inside, explaining to anybody that you meet that they're giving you a tour. There are moments when a well-placed dominate is appropriate. Other times a simple "You cannot see me" is much more helpful.
Lycanthromancer 07-24-07, 02:33 PM	Something for you. Let me know how you like it:Cloud Mind (A)* Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft +5 ft/2 levels) Target: One creature/level Duration: 1 min/level Saving Throw: Will negates Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 You make yourself completely undetectable to the subjects affected by this power by erasing all awareness of your presence from its mind. This power has the following effects. First, you are invisible and inaudible to the creature. It can not even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It can not pinpoint your location by any means. Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any overt attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends. If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the subject’s environment—for example, attacking a creature aside from the subject or moving a large or attended object the subject can see—the subject immediately gains a new saving throw against the power. An ally of the subject creature that is able to see or perceive you can use a move action to warn the subject and thereby grant it a new saving throw. If the subject was aware of your presence prior to your manifestation of this power, it must make a secondary Will save or forget that you were there. Its most recent memories are vague and shadowy, and it goes about its business as if you had not entered its awareness to begin with. Augment: 1. For every additional power point you spend, you can affect another creature within range. 2. If you spend 4 additional power points, the duration of this power becomes “10 min/level.” 3. [Telepath] If you spend 4 additional power points, the target of this power becomes “You, and one creature + one creature/level,” with the additional creature becoming the beneficiary of the invisibility effect as well. 3a. For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature within range to be the beneficiary of this power. 4. If you spend 8 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “100 ft,” its area becomes “100 ft burst,” its duration becomes “Instantaneous and 1 min/level; see text,” and its target becomes “All creatures within range.” and it hides you from all affected creatures for the duration of the power. This is often called the mass cloud mind augment. 4a. For every additional power point you spend, its range increases by 10 ft. 5. [Telepath] If you spend 12 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “Personal; see text,” its target becomes “You; see text,” its duration becomes “Concentration + 1 round/level, and 1 min/level; see text,” its area becomes “60 ft emanation, centered on you,” and its saving throw becomes “Will negates; see text.” You emanate a field of elusive forgetfulness that moves with you, erasing the memory of your presence from all creatures within range. Everything within the field must make a Will save or be affected by the cloud mind power, using its normal duration (1 min/level). Any creature that makes its save against this effect is exempt from this manifestation of cloud mind for 5 rounds, after which it must make yet another save against it. This is often called the mobile mass cloud mind augment. 5a. For every additional power point you spend, the radius of this power increases by 5 ft, and you can affect one other creature so that it, too, is forgotten (this creature is not affected by the cloud mind effect). All creatures so affected must remain within the emanation to receive its benefits, and must abide by all of the rules to remain hidden. 5b. For every 2 additional power points you spend, the interval between saves decreases by 1 round (to a minimum of 1 round). 5c. [Telepath] If you spend 2 additional power points, this power gains the compulsion descriptor. The target of this power becomes “You and 1 creature; see text.” You are hidden as normal, but the other creature affected is both the subject and the object of the cloud mind effect (in other words, it is hidden from everyone but you, and forgets that its ‘self’ exists). While so affected, it follows you docilely, or remains stationary, at your direction. It can not take any other actions (without using extraordinary means, such as the Unconditional Power feat). It loses the ability to make Reflex saves, and is considered flat-footed for the duration of the effect. It makes Fortitude and Will saves normally. Any kind of effect you (or another creature you affect with cloud mind) levy directly against it (such as the manifestation of a power or an attack) immediately grants it another Will save to negate the effect. 5ca. For every 5 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature in this manner. For every 2 power points you spend on this power (via one of these augmentations, or simply by spending additional power points), this power’s save DC increases by 1.By the way, any augment with an alpha character (such as 5a) requires its parent augment. Those with two alpha characters require both parent augments to work. :D
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:39 PM	Something for you. Let me know how you like it: <snip> By the way, any augment with an alpha character (such as 5a) requires its parent augment. Those with two alpha characters require both parent augments to work. :D Its incredibly complex. Seems like it would have been simpler to make a separate cloud mind restricted to the telepathy discipline. That said, it does look much much better and scales well with level. Is there any way to make it a simpler read for presenting to a DM?
Lycanthromancer 07-24-07, 02:42 PM	Just remove a few of the augments.
rilem 07-24-07, 02:46 PM	Other times a simple "You cannot see me" is much more helpful. I agree, but frankly I think Cloud Mind is pretty good as-is — it beats blindsight, which is pretty strong — and I think the multiple saves are appropriate. If you wanted to make a Psychokinesis-based Psionic Invisibility (a la Duergar), that'd make more sense, as it's balanced by the lack of immunity to blindsight, etc.
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:50 PM	I wouldn't mind the saves so much if the effect traveled with the manifester. I like lycan's version because it preserves the saving throws and such but allows it to be an emanation effect once you're high enough level to channel 15 power points into it and a burst effect when you can put 11 in. It looks much more usable that way. The original version, IMHO, was not worthy of a 6th level power. Heck even a "For 8 extra points you may manifest this power as a swift action" would be nice so you could try to save your butt when someone walks around a corner.
Millenia 07-24-07, 03:38 PM	3. [Telepath] If you spend 4 additional power points, the target of this power becomes “You, and one creature + one creature/level,” with the additional creature becoming the beneficiary of the invisibility effect as well. 3a. For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can affect an additional creature within range to be the beneficiary of this power. From what I can interpret, this power gives the manifester and one other person the benefits from being invisible to the other "one creature/level" targets... Right? I think the benefactors of this power - the manifester and the other person - do not really count as targets. 4. If you spend 8 additional power points, this power’s range becomes “100 ft,” its area becomes “100 ft burst,” its duration becomes “Instantaneous and 1 min/level; see text,” and its target becomes “All creatures within range.” and it hides you from all affected creatures for the duration of the power. This is often called the mass cloud mind augment. An SEP Field! Neat!
Lycanthromancer 07-24-07, 04:00 PM	From what I can interpret, this power gives the manifester and one other person the benefits from being invisible to the other "one creature/level" targets... Right? I think the benefactors of this power - the manifester and the other person - do not really count as targets.Totally and 100% correct. An SEP Field! Neat!Indeed.
Vharuck 07-24-07, 07:02 PM	It is inferior in many ways to invisibility, but it wasn't created purely for mechanics. It's psionic to tap into people's minds and make them ignorant of any sensory stimulation from you; it's arcane to simply not be visible.
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 07:06 PM	It is inferior in many ways to invisibility, but it wasn't created purely for mechanics. It's psionic to tap into people's minds and make them ignorant of any sensory stimulation from you; it's arcane to simply not be visible. I'm not complaining because it doesn't work the same as invisibility, nor am I asking for it to be a carbon copy. I like the flavor I just do not feel its worthy of being a level 6 power.
Vharuck 07-24-07, 07:08 PM	I'm not complaining because it doesn't work the same as invisibility, nor am I asking for it to be a carbon copy. I like the flavor I just do not feel its worthy of being a level 6 power. Oh. Then I totally agree with you.
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 07:45 PM	How about this: Suppression Field Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Telepathy 6 Display: Me Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: 100ft Emanation Centered on You Target: You Duration: Concentration up to 1min/level Saving Throw: Special (See Text) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 11 Through intense concentration, you project a telepathic field which induces a hypnotic trance in all non-allied creatures in the area which have an intelligence score. This hypnotic trance suppresses any trace of your presence from their minds. Each round you concentrate on this power you must roll an autohypnosis skill check to determine the strength of the hypnotic field. Each creature within the field may then oppose your check with either a concentration check or a will saving throw, whichever is higher. To any affected creature you are invisible and inaudible. It cannot even detect your presence by means of blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense. It cannot pinpoint your location by any means. Second, the subject remains unaware of your actions, provided you do not make any attacks or cause any obvious or directly threatening changes in the subject’s environment. For example, you could open a door and slip out without the subject noticing, but if you opened a door and let in allies that the subject can see, it would note the arrival of those allies. You could remove a hand-sized, unattended object from the subject’s presence without risking notice, but moving a larger object or an attended object might end the effect (see below). If you attack the subject creature, the effect ends. If you take an action that creates a sustained and obvious change in the subject’s environment—for example, attacking a creature aside from the subject or moving a large or attended object the subject can see—the subject immediately gains a new saving throw against the power. Any comments welcome. Too powerful, not powerful enough? I tried to preserve the flavor while making it more useful. By allowing either concentration or will saves, Its easier for those with low will saves to oppose the power. Also by making the save DC an autohypnosis roll rather than the standard save DC, it feels more like a mind reaching out to dampen its presence in other minds around it. Some rounds you will falter and the check will be low, some rounds it will be very high. Makes it a bit less likely that someone will break through, but leaves the possibility open. Compared to Invisibility... Pros: -Will avoid even true seeing and such things as blind sight, since its not an illusion and it directly affects the mind of the creature. -Better psionics flavor than a carbon-copy invis power. Cons: -Only affects things out to 100ft. -Possible to break through the field without direct contact, unlike invis which simply works or doesn't.
KrisTheGreat 07-25-07, 03:05 AM	i totally agree cloud mind just sucks the save means it will only ever possible work on your warrior types and those are the opponents you are trying to avoid
AntiDjinn 07-25-07, 03:44 AM	Okay so I just got 6th level powers. I looked at cloud mind, mass thinking "Hey, this could help my telepath get in places undetected!" Except it doesn't target you, it targets other creatures making you invisible to them. But only if they make a will save. And only if ALL of them make a will save. And anyone else you meet needs another manifesting of it, and you hope THEY make the save too. The power works only if they fail the save, if they make it then they are unaffected. The fact that it requires a Will save is not even what particularly sucks about (it is after all a mind-affecting power, and it defeats even True Seeing) it is the fact that the DC of the Will save can not be augmented that really sucks. At 11th level you might actually get good use out of the power; you will routinely beat the saves of opponents with poor Will save mods and have a good chance of affecting someone with a good Will save. Within a few levels that is not the case; foe's save mods increase with CR and the DC of MCM is going nowhere. If you take the power at all, buyer's remorse generally sets in within 4 character levels (especially considering it only takes 1 out of the crowd resisting to spoil your whole day). Anyway, even a better Cloud Mind should be lower level (as in, it should just be an augment option on regular Cloud Mind). If you beat the Will save of everyone around you, then you could have fried their minds with a different power (in which case none of them will see you anymore) or dominated or charmed the lot of them. Even if it worked more consistently, the outcome is not worth 6th level.
forsaken1111 07-25-07, 03:52 AM	The power works only if they fail the save, if they make it then they are unaffected. You know what I meant. :P