Control Body question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Control Body question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Blackwlf
07-19-07, 02:11 PM Pretty simple question:

Can a victim of Control Body be forced to attack themselves? Coup de grace themselves? I assumed yes, since there are other powers (Death Urge!) that would indicate that a person can coup de grace themselves, so I can't see why someone being controlled couldn't do so. But, being the one using Control Body, I might be a touch biased. :)
MnemonicSV
07-19-07, 02:39 PM Yes on both counts, IMO.

You can only perform a coup de grace against a helpless opponent, thus part of this argument depends on whether or not the victim is considered "helpless" while under the effects of control body. I'd definitely say yes to that (for this specific purpose) despite the power's text which implies the target is only helpless if rendered immobile. Even though the coup de grace text states "opponent" it is also fair to say that one can designate one's self as an opponent for this purpose.

A common houserule (and strictly a houserule) is to allow the victim a second save if he/she is forced to undertake an action that is obviously suicidal or lethal.

Remember, performing a coup de grace is still a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity (which means the victim's allies may interfere, if possible).
Blackwlf
07-19-07, 02:54 PM Yeah, there's no allies to interfere. It's an arena game. :) Which essentially makes Control Body a save or die.

Another debate that comes up is, if used on a Monk, would they be doing basic punch damage, 1d3, or would it count the Monk's Imp Unarmed damage?
MnemonicSV
07-20-07, 12:56 PM First, two saving throws are involved. The first save is to resist the effects of control body, the second save is the standard save to avoid dying from a coup de grace (DC 10 + damage dealt). Admittedly, if time isn't a factor, it's very likely that the victim will eventually fail the save as long as you concentrate (if damage alone doesn't kill him first).

Second, I would add a caveat to this use that you need to be within at least 30 feet of the victim to force him to coup de grace himself (you are choosing how to execute this action... not him, after all). This follows the same principle that applies to most precision based damage, such as sneak attack, skirmish, Point Blank Shot, yada yada...

As for the Monk scenario (using an unarmed strike), use standard unarmed damage for a character that size (1d3 if medium). The Monk's focus and training allows him to increase his fist's damage potential... which you cannot take advantage of using control body. Since you automatically hit and score a critical hit, the -4 penalty for using a non-lethal weapon to do lethal damage becomes irrelevant.

-----

In hindsight, a DM could rule that the focused concentration and methodical action required to perform a coup de grace (as a full-round action) would disrupt your concentration to maintain control body. I wouldn't rule that way, but maybe I'm just more generous. Check with your DM in any event.
Fleem
07-20-07, 03:02 PM Note that Death Urge doesn't allow a creature to coup de grace itself. Instead, it does a similar (but far less lethal) thing. Death Urge doesn't make them power attack, doesn't do sneak attack, and doesn't force a Fort. save. It would make sense to me to have Death Urge power and sneak attack, but RAW it doesn't.

An unkind DM might apply the Death Urge mechanic to Control Body. With that duration and the described setting, it would only delay the inevitable.
Legdiwena
07-20-07, 04:25 PM Control Body is similar to charm person, right?

Should be 3 saving throws. 1 when spell is cast, 2 to do something you would not normally do and 3 fort save if you survive the hari kari damage.
CrimsonDeath
07-20-07, 04:46 PM Control Body is similar to charm person, right?

Should be 3 saving throws. 1 when spell is cast, 2 to do something you would not normally do and 3 fort save if you survive the hari kari damage.

Not at all. Psionic Charm is similar to Charm Person. Control Body is an effect that I don't believe can be duplicated by magic.
Fafnir
07-20-07, 07:50 PM hari kari

:banghead:
It's hara kiri. :teach:
Sorry. Pet peeve of mine. :D
Legdiwena
07-20-07, 09:36 PM Been saying it wrong for years, eep
koiulpoi
07-21-07, 01:11 AM :banghead:
It's hara kiri. :teach:
Sorry. Pet peeve of mine. :D

Thought it was pronounced "Seppuku" :P

Anyways, as a DM I would allow another saving throw to resist them trying to Coup de Grace themselves. It may not be RAW, but it is RAR (reasonable).
gotbrain
07-21-07, 12:45 PM I would allow the coupe de grace but only 2 saving throws; it reminds me of the movie "Fire and Ice" where the main bag guy used a power like it to cause enemy soilders to kill them selves.
Nerana
07-22-07, 04:43 AM I'd say no, because they aren't helpless and your control isn't that precise.

However, you can certainly force an enemy to attack itself.
Ryuoch
07-22-07, 11:57 AM According to the rules, it really can't be done because they can't be helpless AND attack. But theirs nothing stopping you from moving them over to your nearest ally and THEN make them helpless or having an astral construct do the dirty work for you.

Thou the spirit of the power is something else. You control all their actions (they have no say at this point) so their not just helpless with you controlling them their Helpful! So I could see you making sure that not only do they just stand their but they drag the blade across their own throat for the Coup de grace.

Of course I’m not your DM either
Blackwlf
07-23-07, 10:37 PM Okay, I want more answers on this, so I'm going to get a touch more specific about my precise problems.

I'm in an Arena type game.

I'm one of three DMs in the game. One of them isn't particularly active at the moment, being busy with RL, and the other is rather vague on psionics in general.

My character is the one using Control Body.

The other person is arguing that, since the Control Body power doesn't SPECIFICALLY say it can be used to attack yourself, or even specifically say you can attack ("engage in combat" isn't the same as attack, he's trying to say now.) then it can't be.

Since I'm in the fight, I can't really say "This is the ruling. Now be quiet." Like I would in someone else's fight if they kept arguing the same things over and over.

. . . help?
nickbeat
07-23-07, 11:16 PM I would say you are totally wrong and he is right.

- The Other Player... :)
Blackwlf
07-23-07, 11:24 PM Quiet down, rubadub!

The current point of contention is whether or not Control Body even allows you to use the other person to attack, anyone, or anything, in any WAY. Since states you can force them to engage in combat, and gives special rules for attack and armor bonus, I'd say it's pretty obvious. He disagrees.
Varl
07-23-07, 11:37 PM Any power, spell, or force where one person can basically force suicide or chance of instant death via a charmed or controlled body should immediately break the control of the creature from your control and allow it to regain control of itself. Any suicidal action breaks the control. Control Body also says that those forced to take actions against their natures, i.e. suicidal acts, receive a save with a +2 bonus, for those of you less merciful.
Blackwlf
07-23-07, 11:42 PM Control Body also says that those forced to take actions against their natures, i.e. suicidal acts, receive a save with a +2 bonus, for those of you less merciful.

. . . Control Body says nothing of the sort. I think you're looking at a Charm power there, boss. Control Body doesn't care about the person's 'nature', because it doesn't control their mind. It controls their Body, as per the name, and description, of the spell. Telekinetic energy is used to physically control their body. Their mind remains their own.
mod5000
07-24-07, 12:51 AM There should be no problem having the foe coup-de-grace himself--it isn't that hard, using Control Body, to have someone raise their sword and slice open their own throat while commanding the rest of their body to stay still (apart from their arms and having them raise their head).

Furthermore, it says that you can specifically have them attack someone else in combat, though you use your own BAB and intelligence instead of their BAB and strength on the attack roll--just as it says in the power. To coup-de-grace himself, all you'd need to do it order the monk's body to stay where it is, apart from the hands which you have dig into that person's vital organs.

The one saving grace, however, is that the monk isn't willing to attack said person, which means that he'd probably only do the unarmed damage of a normal person, since you can't control his body delicately enough to use his advanced martial arts techniques. However, having him attack himself should not be a problem.
CrimsonDeath
07-24-07, 04:02 AM Any power, spell, or force where one person can basically force suicide or chance of instant death via a charmed or controlled body should immediately break the control of the creature from your control and allow it to regain control of itself. Any suicidal action breaks the control.
Perhaps that's the way things should be, but that's not the way they are. If you order the subject of Charm Person (or an effect based on it) to commit suicide, he ignores you, but the Charm stays. The same is true of Dominate Person (and effects based on it). Control Body contains no such text (as Blackwlf pointed out), and Death Urge is a Telepathy (compulsion) effect that specifically forces a creature to harm itself (although it can't force the subject to do anything else).
Varl
07-24-07, 09:39 AM . . . Control Body says nothing of the sort. I think you're looking at a Charm power there, boss.

Page 62, Complete Psionics Handbook. Look it up if you don't believe me. Perhaps because it's the 3.0 Complete Psionics Handbook is why no one seems to be able to find it.

Control Body doesn't care about the person's 'nature', because it doesn't control their mind. It controls their Body, as per the name, and description, of the spell. Telekinetic energy is used to physically control their body. Their mind remains their own.

Don't take my word for it. Go look it up. Page 62, left side, third paragraph under Control Body. Boom!
Lionhearted
07-24-07, 09:44 AM Thought it was pronounced "Seppuku" :P
.

Kamikaze, Seppuku, Harakiiri.. well the japanese have many words for suicide each significies why you commit the suicide, they all have to do with honour however
Caterpillar
07-24-07, 09:47 AM Page 62. of the complete psionic handbook talks about illithid heritage feats.
Legdiwena
07-24-07, 10:15 AM Seppuku was the traditional word among samurai

Hara kiri was used by general public that found the practice distatsteful
Varl
07-24-07, 10:43 AM Page 62. of the complete psionic handbook talks about illithid heritage feats.

I'm looking at it right now, and on page 62 of the 3e Psionics Handbook PDF is this entry for Control Body:

Control Body
Psychokinesis (Con)
Level: Psion 2
Display: Ma
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid
that is Medium-size or smaller. Control body doesn't require
mental contact with the subject. You can force the subject to
perform, although you have only rudimentary control over
his limbs. You can make the subject stand up, sit down, walk,
turn around, and so on, but operating the vocal cords is too
difficult, and power manifestation is not possible.
You can force the subject to engage in combat, but its
attack roll and AC are not its own. The controlled subject's
attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + the subject's
Strength modifier (or Dexterity modifier if a ranged attack)
with a -4 circumstance penalty applied. The controlled
subject cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures
the subject threatens. The controlled subject's AC gains no
benefit from his Dexterity score, but he does gain a positive
benefit, if any, equal to half your own Dexterity modifier. of
course, you could also hold the subject immobile, rendering
it helpless.
Subjects resist this control, and those forced to take actions
against their natures receive one new saving throw with a
morale bonus of +2. You need to see the subject to control it.
While the subject's body is under control, the subject's
mind is not. Creatures that can trigger abilities by an act of
will alone can continue to do so. Thus, a psion in the grip of a
control body power could attempt to manifest powers.
Attempting to manifest powers in this fashion requires a
Concentration check for each power manifested against a DC
of 10 + the level of the power the subject attempts to
manifest.

I did notice over on the SRD page that they changed Control Body from this version to a nerfed version where suicidal actions seem to be permitted now. I'm not surprised.
Blackwlf
07-24-07, 11:37 AM I'm looking at it right now, and on page 62 of the 3e Psionics Handbook PDF is this entry for Control Body:

I did notice over on the SRD page that they changed Control Body from this version to a nerfed version where suicidal actions seem to be permitted now. I'm not surprised.

. . . I'd slap you if I could reach you.

It's not NERFED. It's the 3.5 EDITION. Expanded Psionic Handbook and Complete Psionic.
Caterpillar
07-24-07, 11:39 AM Are you looking at the psionics book with the combat modes or something? You need to throw that book away. Control body isn't in the Complete Psionic, and it's on page 86 of the XPH. The one on page 86 is the same from the SRD, you are using an outdated source.
Legdiwena
07-24-07, 12:15 PM It's still a nerf.
Varl
07-24-07, 12:29 PM It's not NERFED. It's the 3.5 EDITION. Expanded Psionic Handbook and Complete Psionic.

It sure looks like people here are leaning towards allowing suicidal actions to be acceptable uses of Control Body in 3.5, but according to 3.0 and all other editions before it, it's not something that's allowed. But you are right about one thing: it's not nerfed. It's stupid. Just remember that the next time your DM through an NPC uses Control Body to take control of your character...
gotbrain
07-24-07, 01:44 PM It sure looks like people here are leaning towards allowing suicidal actions to be acceptable uses of Control Body in 3.5, but according to 3.0 and all other editions before it, it's not something that's allowed. But you are right about one thing: it's not nerfed. It's stupid. Just remember that the next time your DM through an NPC uses Control Body to take control of your character...

hahah....don't fail your fort save in the first place and you don't have to worry about it.
MnemonicSV
07-24-07, 02:25 PM A suicidal action isn't overpowered or broken for a power of this level, requirements, or very nature. Control body's power level is right on par with other 4th level powers, even with it's ability to force obviously suicidal actions. Let's compare control body to some other powers/spells:

Death Urge (4th): The most obvious comparison made repeatedly on this board. Strictly speaking, suicidal uses of control body are inferior to the death urge power in most applications. Although death urge has it's weaknesses vs. control body (ie: mind affecting, living creature only), it has balancing advantages (ie: no concentration required, augmentable duration and DC, doesn't just work on humanoid-shaped creatures).

Phantasmal Killer (4th): Another "two saves or instant death" effect. Athough it's a mind-affecting fear effect, it's lack of a concentration requirement still puts it right on par with a control body effect used for suicide.

Charm (1st): A common comparison in this thread. Control body is superior to charm for the purpose of forcing a suicidal action, since no extra save is allowed. Well, guess what? Control body should be superior to charm when it comes to forcing suicidal actions! The power level difference (coupled with the fact it's a discipline-only power) justifies control body's greater utility.

Ultimately, Control body is only "broken" for forcing a coup de grace in a limited set of circumstances. Sure, if that first fail is saved in that one-on-one battle, the victim is pretty much doomed (unless the victim knows powers or stilled spells). But in most battles, with both multiple allies and opponents around, concentration is crippling. Too many foes can disrupt your attempts (either attacking you, helping their comrade, or even just breaking line of sight). In a one-on-one battle, there's a whole truckload of powers and spells that seem overpowered... and those occasions will skew our interpretation for a time. We have to focus on the "big picture" here.

But please stop comparing 3.5 to 3.0 psionics. Honestly, the 3.5 revision is so very superior to the 3.0 version it's not even funny. I mean, control body was only 2nd level back then... of course it had that limitation.
nickbeat
07-24-07, 02:32 PM Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends.

Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well.
mod5000
07-24-07, 05:13 PM I'll take this one.

In most of the games I've played in, Death Urge made you try to hurt yourself for the greatest amount of damage (or death if it was possible) no matter the circumstances. This would amount to coup-de-gracing yourself while Power Attacking like crazy, attempting to rip apart your own body with your own hands, and using things like Quivering Palm upon yourself--and if you failed the save once more, actually activating it. Furthermore, it can be augmented to increase the DC and the number of rounds you disable the opponent without having to concentrate.

On the other hand, Control Body requires concentration--something easily broken in a fight, and while you can have the body fight, it probably won't fight very well. That said, you can still try to coup-de-grace the person under the power, but they won't be using Power Attack on any of their special class abilities or racial abilities to hurt themselves, making it have a much lower chance of actually killing someone.
Lionhearted
07-24-07, 05:40 PM oh well then you can just throw them off a cliff, into a flood of hot lava or something
MnemonicSV
07-25-07, 12:45 AM Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends.

Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well.

The duration of Death Urge can be augmented: Each extra 4 pp extends the power by one round (and adds +2 to the save DC).

A little off-topic, but Death Ward has no effect on Phantasmal Killer to my knowledge. Although Phantasmal Killer is by it's very nature lethal, it does not have the [Death] descriptor, and is thus not a death effect.
nickbeat
07-25-07, 01:19 AM Good to know that about death ward.
Fleem
07-26-07, 03:29 PM Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends.

Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well.

Fort vs. Will, Kineticist vs. Psion. Different tools for different circumstances.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blackwlf 07-19-07, 02:11 PM	Pretty simple question: Can a victim of Control Body be forced to attack themselves? Coup de grace themselves? I assumed yes, since there are other powers (Death Urge!) that would indicate that a person can coup de grace themselves, so I can't see why someone being controlled couldn't do so. But, being the one using Control Body, I might be a touch biased. :)
MnemonicSV 07-19-07, 02:39 PM	Yes on both counts, IMO. You can only perform a coup de grace against a helpless opponent, thus part of this argument depends on whether or not the victim is considered "helpless" while under the effects of control body. I'd definitely say yes to that (for this specific purpose) despite the power's text which implies the target is only helpless if rendered immobile. Even though the coup de grace text states "opponent" it is also fair to say that one can designate one's self as an opponent for this purpose. A common houserule (and strictly a houserule) is to allow the victim a second save if he/she is forced to undertake an action that is obviously suicidal or lethal. Remember, performing a coup de grace is still a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity (which means the victim's allies may interfere, if possible).
Blackwlf 07-19-07, 02:54 PM	Yeah, there's no allies to interfere. It's an arena game. :) Which essentially makes Control Body a save or die. Another debate that comes up is, if used on a Monk, would they be doing basic punch damage, 1d3, or would it count the Monk's Imp Unarmed damage?
MnemonicSV 07-20-07, 12:56 PM	First, two saving throws are involved. The first save is to resist the effects of control body, the second save is the standard save to avoid dying from a coup de grace (DC 10 + damage dealt). Admittedly, if time isn't a factor, it's very likely that the victim will eventually fail the save as long as you concentrate (if damage alone doesn't kill him first). Second, I would add a caveat to this use that you need to be within at least 30 feet of the victim to force him to coup de grace himself (you are choosing how to execute this action... not him, after all). This follows the same principle that applies to most precision based damage, such as sneak attack, skirmish, Point Blank Shot, yada yada... As for the Monk scenario (using an unarmed strike), use standard unarmed damage for a character that size (1d3 if medium). The Monk's focus and training allows him to increase his fist's damage potential... which you cannot take advantage of using control body. Since you automatically hit and score a critical hit, the -4 penalty for using a non-lethal weapon to do lethal damage becomes irrelevant. ----- In hindsight, a DM could rule that the focused concentration and methodical action required to perform a coup de grace (as a full-round action) would disrupt your concentration to maintain control body. I wouldn't rule that way, but maybe I'm just more generous. Check with your DM in any event.
Fleem 07-20-07, 03:02 PM	Note that Death Urge doesn't allow a creature to coup de grace itself. Instead, it does a similar (but far less lethal) thing. Death Urge doesn't make them power attack, doesn't do sneak attack, and doesn't force a Fort. save. It would make sense to me to have Death Urge power and sneak attack, but RAW it doesn't. An unkind DM might apply the Death Urge mechanic to Control Body. With that duration and the described setting, it would only delay the inevitable.
Legdiwena 07-20-07, 04:25 PM	Control Body is similar to charm person, right? Should be 3 saving throws. 1 when spell is cast, 2 to do something you would not normally do and 3 fort save if you survive the hari kari damage.
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 04:46 PM	Control Body is similar to charm person, right? Should be 3 saving throws. 1 when spell is cast, 2 to do something you would not normally do and 3 fort save if you survive the hari kari damage. Not at all. Psionic Charm is similar to Charm Person. Control Body is an effect that I don't believe can be duplicated by magic.
Fafnir 07-20-07, 07:50 PM	hari kari :banghead: It's hara kiri. :teach: Sorry. Pet peeve of mine. :D
Legdiwena 07-20-07, 09:36 PM	Been saying it wrong for years, eep
koiulpoi 07-21-07, 01:11 AM	:banghead: It's hara kiri. :teach: Sorry. Pet peeve of mine. :D Thought it was pronounced "Seppuku" :P Anyways, as a DM I would allow another saving throw to resist them trying to Coup de Grace themselves. It may not be RAW, but it is RAR (reasonable).
gotbrain 07-21-07, 12:45 PM	I would allow the coupe de grace but only 2 saving throws; it reminds me of the movie "Fire and Ice" where the main bag guy used a power like it to cause enemy soilders to kill them selves.
Nerana 07-22-07, 04:43 AM	I'd say no, because they aren't helpless and your control isn't that precise. However, you can certainly force an enemy to attack itself.
Ryuoch 07-22-07, 11:57 AM	According to the rules, it really can't be done because they can't be helpless AND attack. But theirs nothing stopping you from moving them over to your nearest ally and THEN make them helpless or having an astral construct do the dirty work for you. Thou the spirit of the power is something else. You control all their actions (they have no say at this point) so their not just helpless with you controlling them their Helpful! So I could see you making sure that not only do they just stand their but they drag the blade across their own throat for the Coup de grace. Of course I’m not your DM either
Blackwlf 07-23-07, 10:37 PM	Okay, I want more answers on this, so I'm going to get a touch more specific about my precise problems. I'm in an Arena type game. I'm one of three DMs in the game. One of them isn't particularly active at the moment, being busy with RL, and the other is rather vague on psionics in general. My character is the one using Control Body. The other person is arguing that, since the Control Body power doesn't SPECIFICALLY say it can be used to attack yourself, or even specifically say you can attack ("engage in combat" isn't the same as attack, he's trying to say now.) then it can't be. Since I'm in the fight, I can't really say "This is the ruling. Now be quiet." Like I would in someone else's fight if they kept arguing the same things over and over. . . . help?
nickbeat 07-23-07, 11:16 PM	I would say you are totally wrong and he is right. - The Other Player... :)
Blackwlf 07-23-07, 11:24 PM	Quiet down, rubadub! The current point of contention is whether or not Control Body even allows you to use the other person to attack, anyone, or anything, in any WAY. Since states you can force them to engage in combat, and gives special rules for attack and armor bonus, I'd say it's pretty obvious. He disagrees.
Varl 07-23-07, 11:37 PM	Any power, spell, or force where one person can basically force suicide or chance of instant death via a charmed or controlled body should immediately break the control of the creature from your control and allow it to regain control of itself. Any suicidal action breaks the control. Control Body also says that those forced to take actions against their natures, i.e. suicidal acts, receive a save with a +2 bonus, for those of you less merciful.
Blackwlf 07-23-07, 11:42 PM	Control Body also says that those forced to take actions against their natures, i.e. suicidal acts, receive a save with a +2 bonus, for those of you less merciful. . . . Control Body says nothing of the sort. I think you're looking at a Charm power there, boss. Control Body doesn't care about the person's 'nature', because it doesn't control their mind. It controls their Body, as per the name, and description, of the spell. Telekinetic energy is used to physically control their body. Their mind remains their own.
mod5000 07-24-07, 12:51 AM	There should be no problem having the foe coup-de-grace himself--it isn't that hard, using Control Body, to have someone raise their sword and slice open their own throat while commanding the rest of their body to stay still (apart from their arms and having them raise their head). Furthermore, it says that you can specifically have them attack someone else in combat, though you use your own BAB and intelligence instead of their BAB and strength on the attack roll--just as it says in the power. To coup-de-grace himself, all you'd need to do it order the monk's body to stay where it is, apart from the hands which you have dig into that person's vital organs. The one saving grace, however, is that the monk isn't willing to attack said person, which means that he'd probably only do the unarmed damage of a normal person, since you can't control his body delicately enough to use his advanced martial arts techniques. However, having him attack himself should not be a problem.
CrimsonDeath 07-24-07, 04:02 AM	Any power, spell, or force where one person can basically force suicide or chance of instant death via a charmed or controlled body should immediately break the control of the creature from your control and allow it to regain control of itself. Any suicidal action breaks the control. Perhaps that's the way things should be, but that's not the way they are. If you order the subject of Charm Person (or an effect based on it) to commit suicide, he ignores you, but the Charm stays. The same is true of Dominate Person (and effects based on it). Control Body contains no such text (as Blackwlf pointed out), and Death Urge is a Telepathy (compulsion) effect that specifically forces a creature to harm itself (although it can't force the subject to do anything else).
Varl 07-24-07, 09:39 AM	. . . Control Body says nothing of the sort. I think you're looking at a Charm power there, boss. Page 62, Complete Psionics Handbook. Look it up if you don't believe me. Perhaps because it's the 3.0 Complete Psionics Handbook is why no one seems to be able to find it. Control Body doesn't care about the person's 'nature', because it doesn't control their mind. It controls their Body, as per the name, and description, of the spell. Telekinetic energy is used to physically control their body. Their mind remains their own. Don't take my word for it. Go look it up. Page 62, left side, third paragraph under Control Body. Boom!
Lionhearted 07-24-07, 09:44 AM	Thought it was pronounced "Seppuku" :P . Kamikaze, Seppuku, Harakiiri.. well the japanese have many words for suicide each significies why you commit the suicide, they all have to do with honour however
Caterpillar 07-24-07, 09:47 AM	Page 62. of the complete psionic handbook talks about illithid heritage feats.
Legdiwena 07-24-07, 10:15 AM	Seppuku was the traditional word among samurai Hara kiri was used by general public that found the practice distatsteful
Varl 07-24-07, 10:43 AM	Page 62. of the complete psionic handbook talks about illithid heritage feats. I'm looking at it right now, and on page 62 of the 3e Psionics Handbook PDF is this entry for Control Body: Control Body Psychokinesis (Con) Level: Psion 2 Display: Ma Manifestation Time: 1 action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One humanoid of Medium-size or smaller Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute/level Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid that is Medium-size or smaller. Control body doesn't require mental contact with the subject. You can force the subject to perform, although you have only rudimentary control over his limbs. You can make the subject stand up, sit down, walk, turn around, and so on, but operating the vocal cords is too difficult, and power manifestation is not possible. You can force the subject to engage in combat, but its attack roll and AC are not its own. The controlled subject's attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + the subject's Strength modifier (or Dexterity modifier if a ranged attack) with a -4 circumstance penalty applied. The controlled subject cannot make attacks of opportunity against creatures the subject threatens. The controlled subject's AC gains no benefit from his Dexterity score, but he does gain a positive benefit, if any, equal to half your own Dexterity modifier. of course, you could also hold the subject immobile, rendering it helpless. Subjects resist this control, and those forced to take actions against their natures receive one new saving throw with a morale bonus of +2. You need to see the subject to control it. While the subject's body is under control, the subject's mind is not. Creatures that can trigger abilities by an act of will alone can continue to do so. Thus, a psion in the grip of a control body power could attempt to manifest powers. Attempting to manifest powers in this fashion requires a Concentration check for each power manifested against a DC of 10 + the level of the power the subject attempts to manifest. I did notice over on the SRD page that they changed Control Body from this version to a nerfed version where suicidal actions seem to be permitted now. I'm not surprised.
Blackwlf 07-24-07, 11:37 AM	I'm looking at it right now, and on page 62 of the 3e Psionics Handbook PDF is this entry for Control Body: I did notice over on the SRD page that they changed Control Body from this version to a nerfed version where suicidal actions seem to be permitted now. I'm not surprised. . . . I'd slap you if I could reach you. It's not NERFED. It's the 3.5 EDITION. Expanded Psionic Handbook and Complete Psionic.
Caterpillar 07-24-07, 11:39 AM	Are you looking at the psionics book with the combat modes or something? You need to throw that book away. Control body isn't in the Complete Psionic, and it's on page 86 of the XPH. The one on page 86 is the same from the SRD, you are using an outdated source.
Legdiwena 07-24-07, 12:15 PM	It's still a nerf.
Varl 07-24-07, 12:29 PM	It's not NERFED. It's the 3.5 EDITION. Expanded Psionic Handbook and Complete Psionic. It sure looks like people here are leaning towards allowing suicidal actions to be acceptable uses of Control Body in 3.5, but according to 3.0 and all other editions before it, it's not something that's allowed. But you are right about one thing: it's not nerfed. It's stupid. Just remember that the next time your DM through an NPC uses Control Body to take control of your character...
gotbrain 07-24-07, 01:44 PM	It sure looks like people here are leaning towards allowing suicidal actions to be acceptable uses of Control Body in 3.5, but according to 3.0 and all other editions before it, it's not something that's allowed. But you are right about one thing: it's not nerfed. It's stupid. Just remember that the next time your DM through an NPC uses Control Body to take control of your character... hahah....don't fail your fort save in the first place and you don't have to worry about it.
MnemonicSV 07-24-07, 02:25 PM	A suicidal action isn't overpowered or broken for a power of this level, requirements, or very nature. Control body's power level is right on par with other 4th level powers, even with it's ability to force obviously suicidal actions. Let's compare control body to some other powers/spells: Death Urge (4th): The most obvious comparison made repeatedly on this board. Strictly speaking, suicidal uses of control body are inferior to the death urge power in most applications. Although death urge has it's weaknesses vs. control body (ie: mind affecting, living creature only), it has balancing advantages (ie: no concentration required, augmentable duration and DC, doesn't just work on humanoid-shaped creatures). Phantasmal Killer (4th): Another "two saves or instant death" effect. Athough it's a mind-affecting fear effect, it's lack of a concentration requirement still puts it right on par with a control body effect used for suicide. Charm (1st): A common comparison in this thread. Control body is superior to charm for the purpose of forcing a suicidal action, since no extra save is allowed. Well, guess what? Control body should be superior to charm when it comes to forcing suicidal actions! The power level difference (coupled with the fact it's a discipline-only power) justifies control body's greater utility. Ultimately, Control body is only "broken" for forcing a coup de grace in a limited set of circumstances. Sure, if that first fail is saved in that one-on-one battle, the victim is pretty much doomed (unless the victim knows powers or stilled spells). But in most battles, with both multiple allies and opponents around, concentration is crippling. Too many foes can disrupt your attempts (either attacking you, helping their comrade, or even just breaking line of sight). In a one-on-one battle, there's a whole truckload of powers and spells that seem overpowered... and those occasions will skew our interpretation for a time. We have to focus on the "big picture" here. But please stop comparing 3.5 to 3.0 psionics. Honestly, the 3.5 revision is so very superior to the 3.0 version it's not even funny. I mean, control body was only 2nd level back then... of course it had that limitation.
nickbeat 07-24-07, 02:32 PM	Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends. Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well.
mod5000 07-24-07, 05:13 PM	I'll take this one. In most of the games I've played in, Death Urge made you try to hurt yourself for the greatest amount of damage (or death if it was possible) no matter the circumstances. This would amount to coup-de-gracing yourself while Power Attacking like crazy, attempting to rip apart your own body with your own hands, and using things like Quivering Palm upon yourself--and if you failed the save once more, actually activating it. Furthermore, it can be augmented to increase the DC and the number of rounds you disable the opponent without having to concentrate. On the other hand, Control Body requires concentration--something easily broken in a fight, and while you can have the body fight, it probably won't fight very well. That said, you can still try to coup-de-grace the person under the power, but they won't be using Power Attack on any of their special class abilities or racial abilities to hurt themselves, making it have a much lower chance of actually killing someone.
Lionhearted 07-24-07, 05:40 PM	oh well then you can just throw them off a cliff, into a flood of hot lava or something
MnemonicSV 07-25-07, 12:45 AM	Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends. Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well. The duration of Death Urge can be augmented: Each extra 4 pp extends the power by one round (and adds +2 to the save DC). A little off-topic, but Death Ward has no effect on Phantasmal Killer to my knowledge. Although Phantasmal Killer is by it's very nature lethal, it does not have the [Death] descriptor, and is thus not a death effect.
nickbeat 07-25-07, 01:19 AM	Good to know that about death ward.
Fleem 07-26-07, 03:29 PM	Death urge only lasts one round. Control body lasts several minutes. Why would anyone take Death Urge? Control Body lets you make the person kill themselves, and lets you use them to beat up their friends. Phantasmal Killer still has Death Ward as a defense as well. Fort vs. Will, Kineticist vs. Psion. Different tools for different circumstances.