Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lamorake 03-06-07, 10:29 AM	I was looking for different powers to use in different ways, and I stumbled on Control Sound. Can it be used to hinder or prevent the use of the verbal component in a spell as a readied action? Or, since the spell is concentration based, could you simply do it any time you wished? Here's the spell description o review: Control Sound Psychokinesis [Sonic] Level: Psion/wilder 2 Display: Auditory; see text Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: One sound or mixture of related sounds Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level; see text Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You shape and alter existing sounds. You can target one sound, such as a person speaking or singing, or a group of related sounds, such as the patter of many raindrops or the tramp of soldiers passing by. A sound as quiet as a snapping finger can be controlled. You can substitute any sound you have heard for the target sound. If you attempt to exactly duplicate the voice of a specific individual, or an inherently terrifying sound (such as a dragon’s roar), you must succeed on a Bluff check with a +5 circumstance bonus opposed by the intended listener’s Sense Motive check to avoid arousing suspicion. You can entirely muffle a noise or magnify a sound to such loudness that it drowns out all other conversation in the immediate area. In this way, you can provide yourself or any with a +4 circumstance bonus on Move Silently and Listen checks. Alternatively, you can use up the power in an instant. You do this by modulating a sound into a one-time destructive impetus that shatters nonmagical/nonpsionic, unattended objects of crystal, glass, ceramics, or porcelain (vials, bottles, flasks, jugs, mirrors, and so forth) in the area.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 10:54 AM	I'd never thought of that before... but yes. Awesome.
chiefsheep 03-06-07, 11:19 AM	Another question on Control Sound (seeing as there's a thread open...) I was reading up on Control Sound only last night and a question struck me "what is the area of effect of the power?" The range is listed (100 feet + 10 feet / level) and the target is "one sound or mixture of related sounds" Any thoughts from the board would be most welcome. Example 1 You can target...a group of related sounds...the tramp of soldiers passing by So if soldiers are passing within range of the power I can muffle their sounds. But how big a group of soldiers? A small group of a dozen? A mile long column? Example 2 You can entirely muffle...in the immediate area The target has now become an area? Again, over how big an area? Just my sounds (or the person I manifest it on)? If I manifest it on an ally I can see say 80 feet away how big an area does it cover around him, or does it just muffle the sounds he makes? Example 3 one-time destructive impetus that shatters....in the area Dammit! What area? The room I'm in? The whole open-air market I'm standing in? The town? My continent? :-)
Selgard 03-06-07, 11:34 AM	Actually, i would disagree and say "no". The ability to disrupt a spell should be an effect that targets the caster, thus allowing for some sort of save and/or SR. As much as the spell would seem to imply otherwise, were I the DM I don't think i would allow it. (or at least, not without granting a save or such of some kind to overcome the effect.)
Lord_Iames 03-06-07, 11:48 AM	Why not do it as a Concentration check vs. the save DC of the power, as a distracvtion caused by a nondamaging spell? Or have it impose a 20% chance of failure, as if the caster was deafened.
SlanderPanic 03-06-07, 12:00 PM	If a spellcaster is unable to hear his verbal components, he suffers a failure chance. Look at tanglefoot bags for an example of this.
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-07, 12:54 PM	From a mechanical standpoint, if the verbal components are not completed correctly, the spell fails. Thus, Control Sound can foil a verbal component. From a balance standpoint, come on! It involves concentrating and spending 3 power points to MAYBE nullify a sinle other spellcaster (different voices are different target sounds), who can always just cast spells without verbal components. It's like counterspelling but worse, and that's a subpar tactic anyway.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 01:01 PM	I think more to the point beyond muffling the verbal component of a spell I was thinking of actually changing the sound to something entirely different like the sound of a bee buzzing rather than coherent words that form a spell. Obviously, the silence spell negates the use of verbal spellcasting in an area (and if the caster is targeted they get a save, but not if it's cast in a specific area or unattended object). Although control sound doesn't create complete silence, it does manipulate the sound... I'm not sure if that qualifies to causing the spell to fail, though. Mechanically it seems like it would, but since I'm not certain, that's what this thread is for! hehe edit: Tempest and myself were replying at the same time - I think we are on the same page as to the effect.
RadicalTaoist 03-06-07, 01:18 PM	Not so hot on the counterspell myself; I see muffled spells being as surpressed as whispered spells (which I allow to not bone casters needlessly in stealth situations). At the most I rule in my games that Control Sound forces the spellcaster to work as if deafened (failure chance for all spells with V components, no save). YMMV though.
chiefsheep 03-06-07, 01:27 PM	Can it be used to hinder or prevent the use of the verbal component in a spell as a readied action? I would say "yes". The power's description says it alters existing sounds - therefore the actual verbal component is being altered - no proper verbal component = no spell. Or, since the spell is concentration based, could you simply do it any time you wished? Again, "yes". But if you want to do *anything* else you must either a) drop the power as it is concentration or b) make a concentration check to do it. You can't manifest another power at the same time (ignoring letting your psicrystal take over the concentration) and any damage to the manifester immediately triggers a concentration check. The ability to disrupt a spell should be an effect that targets the caster, thus allowing for some sort of save and/or SR. Or you could cast Silence on a point on the ground 5' from the caster. The target is the ground, not the caster. No save. No SR. Control Sound is also is affecting the caster's speech, not the caster himself. No save, no SR. Just my 0.02 and YMMV
Tempest Stormwind 03-06-07, 01:36 PM	Not so hot on the counterspell myself; I see muffled spells being as surpressed as whispered spells (which I allow to not bone casters needlessly in stealth situations). At the most I rule in my games that Control Sound forces the spellcaster to work as if deafened (failure chance for all spells with V components, no save). YMMV though. You're not muffling it. You're transforming it. "Klatu, verata, TOBOGGAN!" isn't a proper verbal component.
AntiDjinn 03-06-07, 01:44 PM	I was reading up on Control Sound only last night and a question struck me "what is the area of effect of the power?" The range is listed (100 feet + 10 feet / level) and the target is "one sound or mixture of related sounds" It doesn't have an area; it is a targeted power and the target is the sound or group of related sounds you wish to alter. You can make the sound of the boots of a company of soldiers sound like the rustling of leaves (each bootfall is a separate sound, but together all the steps of each soldier forms a group of related sounds). If you are concentrating on this and then want to foil a spellcaster, you will need to remanifest; the power specifies its target and you are needed to affect a different target.
Lamorake 03-06-07, 07:49 PM	If you are concentrating on this and then want to foil a spellcaster, you will need to remanifest; the power specifies its target and you are needed to affect a different target. To make sure I understand this, are you stating that if I initially targeted a spellcaster's verbal spellcasting, I would need to remanifest for the next spell cast since it's not the person you are targeting, but rather the sound you are targeting? So in essense, since one person isn't continously talking, once they stop, you can no longer use concentration to affect any new words they speak? I'm just trying to get a grasp on the "target=sound" deal, it's slightly different than targeting an object, area or person! :)
AntiDjinn 03-06-07, 08:16 PM	No, if you were initially targeting the sound of a group's footsteps and later wanted to target a caster's voice then you would have to remanifest. It is a separate sound. If you stay on the same person's voice then it is one sound even if he casts another spell. If starting a separate spell means your voice is a new sound, then doesn't every syllable of each word count as a separate sound? In any case, your target is never the caster himself (not even an option; the targeting line of the power does not allow for target other than sounds).
PrinceCurtis 03-06-07, 08:16 PM	You're not muffling it. You're transforming it. "Klatu, verata, TOBOGGAN!" isn't a proper verbal component. Nonsense Stormwind! That the verbal component for my special Mount spell! LMAO
Lamorake 03-06-07, 08:40 PM	No, if you were initially targeting the sound of a group's footsteps and later wanted to target a caster's voice then you would have to remanifest. It is a separate sound. If you stay on the same person's voice then it is one sound even if he casts another spell. If starting a separate spell means your voice is a new sound, then doesn't every syllable of each word count as a separate sound? In any case, your target is never the caster himself (not even an option; the targeting line of the power does not allow for target other than sounds). Okay, you are meaning if deciding to switch to a different sound type. That's what I was looking for. Sounds good. I agree with Tempest that this may not be a very optimal choice when there are so many other powers that are better and a limited amount of powers to choose from, but it would make for an interesting NPC to have a party spellcaster come across! lol
SlanderPanic 03-07-07, 11:50 AM	It's a great power outside of combat. Just imagine pulling pranks on your party members, using it to create distractions so you can sneak past the city guards, commanding an army, broadcasting bardsong...
AntiDjinn 03-07-07, 12:15 PM	It is a versatile power but not a particularly powerful one due to its Concentration requirement. Use it to neutralize another's verbal casting and you partially neutralize yourself for the duration. By contrast, Silence, is fire and forget it and affects all sounds (including sonic attacks) within its area simultaneously. In order to get around the concentration requirement you need to use: Schism - throw a fourth level power to make a second level one work better, costs you a feat for this opportunity if you are not a telepath. Solicit Psicrystal - throw a third level power to take care of the concentration requirement of a second, also costs you a feat because you need a psicrystal. Or: Co-opt Concentration - an ally must know this sixth level power and spend his action manifesting it on you, thereafter, he has to concentrate to maintain your Control Sound. While having an ally Co-opt can be a valid tactic, if you are going to take the effort you are better off doing it with something more effective such as Energy Current or Mental Rage.
ArcTan 03-07-07, 04:16 PM	Actually, i would disagree and say "no". The ability to disrupt a spell should be an effect that targets the caster, thus allowing for some sort of save and/or SR. As much as the spell would seem to imply otherwise, were I the DM I don't think i would allow it. (or at least, not without granting a save or such of some kind to overcome the effect.) Nonsense. Do you grant enemy spellcasters a Will save to negate the effect of an area silence spell? (The answer is that no, you don't -- they only get a Will save if you try to center the silence on them, specifically.) If it's not unbalanced for Clerics to do as a 2nd-level spell, it's not unbalanced for Psions to do as a 2nd-level power. Keep in mind the Cleric is silencing *all* spells in a certain area, while the Psion can only do this to one spellcaster at a time, every time he manifests the power.
The Livewire 03-08-07, 12:23 PM	You're not muffling it. You're transforming it. "Klatu, verata, TOBOGGAN!" isn't a proper verbal component. Once again, showing why it's a good thing I can't read these boards at work.