crits and empathic transfer hostile [Archive] - Wizards Community

crits and empathic transfer hostile [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koda77
01-20-08, 03:01 PM what happens when you have say 60 hp and do not augment and then roll a 20 on the touch attack how does this work
The_Mess
01-20-08, 08:27 PM Critical hits for extra damage are irrelevant unless you are using a weapon or something that specifically says it does extra damage on critical hits. This will be changing in fourth edition, but for now, critical hits are generally the purview of weapons.
CrimsonDeath
01-20-08, 08:39 PM Critical hits for extra damage are irrelevant unless you are using a weapon or something that specifically says it does extra damage on critical hits. This will be changing in fourth edition, but for now, critical hits are generally the purview of weapons.

Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits). As long as a spell has an attack roll, you can score a critical hit with it. Unless stated otherwise, any attack has a 20/x2 critical. So if you roll a 20 to hit with your touch attack on Hostile Empathic Transfer, you roll again to confirm. If the confirmation roll hits, you can transfer up to 100 damage to your opponent, although he still gets a Will save for half and you can't transfer more damage than you've suffered. So in the original example, if the confirmation roll hits and the target fails his Will save, the target takes 60 damage and the manifester recovers 60 HP. If the confirmation roll fails and the opponent passes his Will save, the target takes 25 damage and the manifester recovers 25 HP.

(This is neglecting the alterations made to the power in CPsi, which pretty much cuts everything in half but doesn't really change the answer to the question.)
AntiDjinn
01-21-08, 11:45 AM Yes, you can crit., but the mechanics of how a crit. is handled still apply, which yields a disappointing result. On a critical hit you double the number of dice rolled for the effect. HET does a set amount, so you double the number of dice rolled (2 X 0 = 0) and still do the exact amount you intended to transfer. Note that this is not the same as critting on a maximized effect; dice are "rolled", they are just treated as all getting the maximum possible outcome.
AntiDjinn
01-21-08, 01:04 PM btw: This same mechanic works in your favor when someone tries to use Damp Power (or similar) as a defense against HET. The minimum possible value of exactly 30 points is 30 points. In general, lack of variability is in your favor (randomness does not favor the PC).
CrimsonDeath
01-21-08, 01:04 PM I'm pretty sure a critical also multiplies the static adds to damage.

I mean, does a Barbarian with 18 Strength and a Greataxe deal 3d12+6 or 3d12+18 on a critical?
AntiDjinn
01-21-08, 01:43 PM Per PHB p. 140: "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."

It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling.
TheAbyssDragon
01-21-08, 05:52 PM It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling.
I am almost certain that empower is extra rolled damage, because I know for sure that something that is both empowered and maximized does static damage from the maximize and rolled damage from the empower, you don't just get auto 1.5x max.

Also, how is choosing to transfer some set amount of damage different from choosing to power attack or smite?
CrimsonDeath
01-21-08, 06:51 PM Per PHB p. 140: "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together."

It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling.

So what happens if you score a critical with a Small Shuriken? It does 1 damage (no roll), but has a critical of 20/x2. (As for who would actually use a Small Shuriken, I did play a Halfling Monk once.)
AntiDjinn
01-21-08, 07:35 PM I am almost certain that empower is extra rolled damage, because I know for sure that something that is both empowered and maximized does static damage from the maximize and rolled damage from the empower, you don't just get auto 1.5x max.

Also, how is choosing to transfer some set amount of damage different from choosing to power attack or smite?

The example you give is unique to Empower + Maximize and is covered as such in the rules. By itself Empower is handled exactly as the PHB details: It tells you to multiply by 1.5 (it even gives an explicit, in the text, unambiguous example of Magic Missile and says to multiply each d4+1 by 1.5). Empower is a multiple.

As for choosing to power attack or smite, the difference is you roll damage then add a bonus. HET damage is not added to anything. When you crit with an attack that has normal bonus damage (Str mod, power attack, whatever) here is what you do exactly by the PHB rules for critical damage:

Roll your attack damage as normal, adding any bonus damage as normal. Roll your attack damage again, adding any bonus damage as normal. Add the two sums together.

So applying this to 30 points of HET damage: Roll your attack damage as normal (nothing, d0, there is no roll) add your bonus damage (also nothing, HET damage isn't bonus damage). Roll your attack damage again as normal (and as normal, it is still zero) and add your bonus (still nothing, unless you have the feat from Hyperconscious that add 2 points of damage to any power that does damage). Add the two together, then just do your 30 points.
TravisOfTheCosmose
01-26-08, 12:35 AM On a critical hit you double the number of dice rolled for the effect. HET does a set amount, so you double the number of dice rolled (2 X 0 = 0) and still do the exact amount you intended to transfer.That's a curious ruling, to which I can only find one counter argument. On page 86 in Complete Arcane. the example they give shows Chill Touch doing 2d6 damage and another 2 strength damage on a critical, with a failed save. Seems to imply that you double all damaging effects of spells, which is contradictory to the way critical hits are normally handled, in regard to additional effects. I'm not saying it's right, just something to be considered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koda77 01-20-08, 03:01 PM	what happens when you have say 60 hp and do not augment and then roll a 20 on the touch attack how does this work
The_Mess 01-20-08, 08:27 PM	Critical hits for extra damage are irrelevant unless you are using a weapon or something that specifically says it does extra damage on critical hits. This will be changing in fourth edition, but for now, critical hits are generally the purview of weapons.
CrimsonDeath 01-20-08, 08:39 PM	Critical hits for extra damage are irrelevant unless you are using a weapon or something that specifically says it does extra damage on critical hits. This will be changing in fourth edition, but for now, critical hits are generally the purview of weapons. Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits). As long as a spell has an attack roll, you can score a critical hit with it. Unless stated otherwise, any attack has a 20/x2 critical. So if you roll a 20 to hit with your touch attack on Hostile Empathic Transfer, you roll again to confirm. If the confirmation roll hits, you can transfer up to 100 damage to your opponent, although he still gets a Will save for half and you can't transfer more damage than you've suffered. So in the original example, if the confirmation roll hits and the target fails his Will save, the target takes 60 damage and the manifester recovers 60 HP. If the confirmation roll fails and the opponent passes his Will save, the target takes 25 damage and the manifester recovers 25 HP. (This is neglecting the alterations made to the power in CPsi, which pretty much cuts everything in half but doesn't really change the answer to the question.)
AntiDjinn 01-21-08, 11:45 AM	Yes, you can crit., but the mechanics of how a crit. is handled still apply, which yields a disappointing result. On a critical hit you double the number of dice rolled for the effect. HET does a set amount, so you double the number of dice rolled (2 X 0 = 0) and still do the exact amount you intended to transfer. Note that this is not the same as critting on a maximized effect; dice are "rolled", they are just treated as all getting the maximum possible outcome.
AntiDjinn 01-21-08, 01:04 PM	btw: This same mechanic works in your favor when someone tries to use Damp Power (or similar) as a defense against HET. The minimum possible value of exactly 30 points is 30 points. In general, lack of variability is in your favor (randomness does not favor the PC).
CrimsonDeath 01-21-08, 01:04 PM	I'm pretty sure a critical also multiplies the static adds to damage. I mean, does a Barbarian with 18 Strength and a Greataxe deal 3d12+6 or 3d12+18 on a critical?
AntiDjinn 01-21-08, 01:43 PM	Per PHB p. 140: "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling.
TheAbyssDragon 01-21-08, 05:52 PM	It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling. I am almost certain that empower is extra rolled damage, because I know for sure that something that is both empowered and maximized does static damage from the maximize and rolled damage from the empower, you don't just get auto 1.5x max. Also, how is choosing to transfer some set amount of damage different from choosing to power attack or smite?
CrimsonDeath 01-21-08, 06:51 PM	Per PHB p. 140: "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." It is not resolved like Empower. You don't take a result then put it through a multiplier, you roll twice. The 30 points the character is doing (a number chosen by the character, in no way a variable) is not bonus damage, and certainly isn't the "usual bonuses". It is not added per d0 the character isn't rolling. So what happens if you score a critical with a Small Shuriken? It does 1 damage (no roll), but has a critical of 20/x2. (As for who would actually use a Small Shuriken, I did play a Halfling Monk once.)
AntiDjinn 01-21-08, 07:35 PM	I am almost certain that empower is extra rolled damage, because I know for sure that something that is both empowered and maximized does static damage from the maximize and rolled damage from the empower, you don't just get auto 1.5x max. Also, how is choosing to transfer some set amount of damage different from choosing to power attack or smite? The example you give is unique to Empower + Maximize and is covered as such in the rules. By itself Empower is handled exactly as the PHB details: It tells you to multiply by 1.5 (it even gives an explicit, in the text, unambiguous example of Magic Missile and says to multiply each d4+1 by 1.5). Empower is a multiple. As for choosing to power attack or smite, the difference is you roll damage then add a bonus. HET damage is not added to anything. When you crit with an attack that has normal bonus damage (Str mod, power attack, whatever) here is what you do exactly by the PHB rules for critical damage: Roll your attack damage as normal, adding any bonus damage as normal. Roll your attack damage again, adding any bonus damage as normal. Add the two sums together. So applying this to 30 points of HET damage: Roll your attack damage as normal (nothing, d0, there is no roll) add your bonus damage (also nothing, HET damage isn't bonus damage). Roll your attack damage again as normal (and as normal, it is still zero) and add your bonus (still nothing, unless you have the feat from Hyperconscious that add 2 points of damage to any power that does damage). Add the two together, then just do your 30 points.
TravisOfTheCosmose 01-26-08, 12:35 AM	On a critical hit you double the number of dice rolled for the effect. HET does a set amount, so you double the number of dice rolled (2 X 0 = 0) and still do the exact amount you intended to transfer.That's a curious ruling, to which I can only find one counter argument. On page 86 in Complete Arcane. the example they give shows Chill Touch doing 2d6 damage and another 2 strength damage on a critical, with a failed save. Seems to imply that you double all damaging effects of spells, which is contradictory to the way critical hits are normally handled, in regard to additional effects. I'm not saying it's right, just something to be considered.