Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sijigs 11-06-07, 06:15 PM	Hey all, I'm sure this q has been asked before but it's hard searching. My DM feels that Crystal Shard is overpowered. Last night I took out a metal golem of some kind which ignored his immunity to magic etc. The mages were running (flying) for the hills which was quite funny but a small debate sparked up. We conceded that perhaps the blades are very very sharp hence it's a touch attack which ignores everything and left it at that in the meantime. :rolleyes: I had a look at Comp Psi and pg.79 says it does not ignore DR - I've forwarded this to the guys and ask them what they think. This seems okay.. but it's coming from a dodgy book so I don't really trust it. Hahaha. Thoughts from all of you, please??
PhaedrusXY 11-06-07, 06:26 PM	Direct damage from spells ignores DR. Powers should too, due to transparency. That part of CPsi is regarded as an unnecessary nerf by most (as are several other things in that book). They should at least be consistent, and say all similiar spells are also affected by DR, like Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm (the bludgeoning part), etc. The magic users in your group don't have any Orb spells? Those would have worked on the golem, also, as would similiar core spells like Acid Arrow. Golems are kind of weak in general, despite their magic immunity. They're big, dumb, slow, and can't fly. They shouldn't really be a threat to anyone with half a brain, unless you're locked in a small room with them. Just keep out of their reach, and either avoid/bypass/trap them, or whittle away at their hit points until they stop moving. They're also fairly easily tricked by illusions and things.
sijigs 11-06-07, 06:49 PM	Direct damage from spells ignores DR. Powers should too, due to transparency. That part of CPsi is regarded as an unnecessary nerf by most (as are several other things in that book). They should at least be consistent, and say all similiar spells are also affected by DR, like Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm (the bludgeoning part), etc. Good points - and yes we bought this up with Orb spells last night which one of our mages had so that helped. :D The magic users in your group don't have any Orb spells? Those would have worked on the golem, also, as would similiar core spells like Acid Arrow. Yeap - see above. Golems are kind of weak in general, despite their magic immunity. They're big, dumb, slow, and can't fly. They shouldn't really be a threat to anyone with half a brain, unless you're locked in a small room with them. Just keep out of their reach, and either avoid/bypass/trap them, or whittle away at their hit points until they stop moving. They're also fairly easily tricked by illusions and things. Yeap, we prevailed in the end using those tactics. I guess another part that annoyed my DM was the logic of how it's instantaneous as the shard materialises and launched *yet* it was a touch attack. The example of a spear being launched was used.
PhaedrusXY 11-06-07, 06:54 PM	I think Crystal Shard is fine. My psion is 5th level now, and I've never even used it, despite having it as a known power. I have better things to do with my power points almost all of the time. It's too easy to drain yourself dry if you start trying to kill things via direct damage powers. Of course, our party is rather large, and has alot of melee and archery people, so they handle the direct damage stuff fairly well. If it were a small party with no tanks, I'm sure I'd probably use it more often. I'd still use Astral Construct first, though. :P
sijigs 11-06-07, 07:00 PM	I think Crystal Shard is fine. My psion is 5th level now, and I've never even used it, despite having it as a known power. I have better things to do with my power points almost all of the time. It's too easy to drain yourself dry if you start trying to kill things via direct damage powers. Of course, our party is rather large, and has alot of melee and archery people, so they handle the direct damage stuff fairly well. If it were a small party with no tanks, I'm sure I'd probably use it more often. I'd still use Astral Construct first, though. :P I know what you mean - I was left dry last night. Oh.. and yes, we were locked inside a chamber + could not summon Astral Constructs + we only had one tank who was busy with one of the two golems... No choice but to unload on it. With Schism going.. it was handy to do a major and minor shard every round. :)
DemonDM 11-06-07, 08:17 PM	Just to clarify my whiny players complaint I dont actually feel the power is overpowered in anyway I just don’t like the complete lack of logic in it. While there are many touch powers out there 90% of them are magical in nature, eg spell resistance can stop them and theres no reason armor helps versus a magical touch. The other remaining percent while somehow 'non magical' like an orb of acid at least make sense in regards to ignoring armor. Eg the acid orb can certainly bubble and hiss away dripping into slight gaps and generally trashing the armor or skin of the naturally armoured person. However the crystal shard power gets the ability to ignore magic resistance because it’s a created crystal that according to the spell is no longer magical beyond being flung via your mind, which is where I have the issue. Why a non-magical crystal ignores amour entirely is beyond me, were talking natural armor of a dragon, heavy armor of a knight, the solid body of a golem, the whole armor anything. Some of that can be explained away to the whole targeting with your mind thus being extra precise thing but not well enough for my tastes really. If for example a creatures immune to critical s then it means there ARE no weak spots to make use off hence why should a nonmagical shard of crystal slice right though it uninterrupted as if it was made of tinfoil?
sijigs 11-06-07, 08:34 PM	uhh.. thanks mr.DM.. but I'm not actually whining (for once) One of the other players (who we shall not name) just boiled it down to bad descriptive writing. :D
Psychokinetic 11-06-07, 08:36 PM	I'll back DemonDM up with his statement about Whiny players, man is this group whiny, I still remember when I was playing with them, using link sync's and immediate actions, they were always whining about how cheesy it all was.... oh..... never mind then.... ;) Thought this quote was highly appropriate :D Ah, and the "you can't apply math to english" argument comes out at last. What's next, the pitch-fork wielding mob of retards who don't "believe" in this funny logic stuff?
sijigs 11-06-07, 09:19 PM	I'll back DemonDM up with his statement about Whiny players, man is this group whiny, I still remember when I was playing with them, using link sync's and immediate actions, they were always whining about how cheesy it all was.... oh..... never mind then.... ;) Thought this quote was highly appropriate :D HAHAHAHA.. not THIS GUY!!!!!! It's taken THIS LONG for the group to recover in accepting psionics after the debacle that you put us through.
Bacris 11-06-07, 10:10 PM	Just to clarify my whiny players complaint So, Mr DM, what are your thoughts on the magical equivalents to this argument? The afore-mentioned Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm, etc? That are also not subject to PR / SR and are not subject to damage reduction?
Lokiyn 11-06-07, 10:52 PM	Step 1)Take a rubber ball Step 2)Throw it at a brick wall Step 3)Be amazed at how little it did Repeat, now however, instead of throwing the ball, accelerate it to the speed of sound or more, be amazed at how much more damage it does. Crystal shard's penetration comes from its speed, not its nature or composition.
Jaid 11-07-07, 07:44 PM	if you're going to discuss the lack of logic when it comes to crystal shard being nonmagical yet bypasses immunity, i have a few questions for you: 1) where the heck does the nonmagical sound formed into an orb come from for a sonic orb? 2) where does the nonmagical cold formed into an orb come from for an orb of cold? bear in mind, cold weather doesn't do anywhere near the kind of damage an orb of cold can, no matter how cold... 3) where the heck do you find a nonmagical orb of force??? 4) how do you get an orb of pure, nonmagical fire? 5) assuming you can somehow locate an orb of these things (note that they are not actually substances) how the heck do you *keep* them in orb form? (short version: there's other stuff that is way less logical than crystal shard. you're playing D&D, not physics classroom puzzles)
TheKeyofE 11-07-07, 07:44 PM	Tiny projectile launched at impossible speed so it ignores armor? It's a railgun.
Lycanthromancer 11-07-07, 08:36 PM	My mini-uzi can ignore pretty much any armor you care to name. :) (Well, except for bullet-proof armor, but still...)
The_Ditto 11-07-07, 08:43 PM	My mini-uzi can ignore pretty much any armor you care to name. :) (Well, except for bullet-proof armor, but still...) uh, spectral anti-mini-uzi adamantine armor +1 of heavy fortification? :P (don't ask me what spectral does - it just seemed like I needed it to help out ... :confused: )
Lycanthromancer 11-07-07, 08:45 PM	It's frikken mind-bullets. They kill yaks, with or without armor. :)
Subtle Knife 11-07-07, 08:55 PM	I thought the point of the DR ruling in CPsi makes sense - Crystal Shard might launch its' projectile at Railgun-like speeds, but launching such a weapon against a steel wall is going to do less damage than it would against soft, squishy flesh. While they are traveling very fast, these projectiles are crystal, of a consistency slightly greater than glass, not as physically resilient as adamantine. Besides, game-play wise you need to provide some form of defense against such a power! Otherwise, players are going to to get all squirelly and annoyed when you turn such a weapon against them! SK
Lycanthromancer 11-07-07, 08:58 PM	Your defense is your AC. It's hit-or-miss, and let's face it; most anyone with a brain would rather use a save-or-die power than hit-or-miss direct damage anyway.
sijigs 11-07-07, 09:04 PM	Your defense is your AC. It's hit-or-miss, and let's face it; most anyone with a brain would rather use a save-or-die power than hit-or-miss direct damage anyway. I agree - exception was last session (see above). Mini-uzirailgun with mind bullets was in full effect...
Lycanthromancer 11-07-07, 09:06 PM	Oh, and uzis can even take out the OMGZORS KATANA! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_TFIQ-7TxMw) :P
Subtle Knife 11-07-07, 09:15 PM	Your defense is your AC. It's hit-or-miss, and let's face it; most anyone with a brain would rather use a save-or-die power than hit-or-miss direct damage anyway. Best be careful with your generalizations, there! You never know what individual with a brain will take umbrage with your comment! Lets face it. AC defense against Crystal Shard is useless - it is a Ranged Touch Attack, allowing it to effectively bypass the greater breadth of armor modifiers used by most individuals and making it potentially dangerous even in the hands of a BAB-poor class like a psion. I cannot remember where I saw it (I'll post it if I find it), but a breakdown of general trends in saves, armor class modifiers, power and spell resistance, indicated that touch AC tends to progress on a much more gradual slope with respect to level/CR, such that attacks that target the touch AC tend to retain their effectiveness at higher levels to a greater degree than those dependent on overcome the other factors. DR at least provides some respite against such an attack for those who fortunate enough to have it! SK
Lycanthromancer 11-07-07, 09:26 PM	When you stop to consider that crystal shard is hit-or-miss, AND you don't have the luxury of it being a save-or-die, I'd rather go with a hit-and-die, rather than just hit-and-damage. Psionic disintegrate is an example of a power that is much better suited to this role (and yes, I wholly realize that it's several levels higher than crystal shard is). Unless you're specialized at using rays and don't have disintegrate yet, OR you have nothing else to do for the round (not usually likely unless you're a one-trick-pony), there's almost ALWAYS a better fallback than crystal shard. I'd rather use entangling ectoplasm or ectoplasmic cocoon.
sijigs 11-07-07, 09:39 PM	Lets face it. AC defense against Crystal Shard is useless - it is a Ranged Touch Attack... SK Same with most Orb spells.. so? And CS ain't that great at high levels.. I only use it in a few situations.
sijigs 11-07-07, 09:40 PM	Oh, and uzis can even take out the OMGZORS KATANA! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_TFIQ-7TxMw) :P HAHAHAHA
Nephlite 11-07-07, 09:54 PM	I thought the point of the DR ruling in CPsi makes sense - Crystal Shard might launch its' projectile at Railgun-like speeds, but launching such a weapon against a steel wall is going to do less damage than it would against soft, squishy flesh. While they are traveling very fast, these projectiles are crystal, of a consistency slightly greater than glass, not as physically resilient as adamantine. Besides, game-play wise you need to provide some form of defense against such a power! Otherwise, players are going to to get all squirelly and annoyed when you turn such a weapon against them! SK Maybe you are confused: Hardness is not DR. DR does not stop Falling damage: Hardness does. Hardness also applies versus the Orb spells. Hardness apllies to Crystal Shard. So yes, it does less to a steel wall: Humans don't have hardness.
Lokathor 11-07-07, 10:32 PM	DR does not stop Falling damage: Hardness does. Don't both apply unless it's DR/Bludgeoning?
CrimsonDeath 11-07-07, 10:33 PM	Don't both apply unless it's DR/Bludgeoning? Material-based DR might be penetrated if you fall onto the appropriate material.
Nephlite 11-07-07, 10:36 PM	Don't both apply unless it's DR/Bludgeoning? DR only applies to weapon (natural weapons are included) damage according to the DMG. Spells need to be weapon-like to count against DR (and some spells are ruled they are).
Lokathor 11-07-07, 10:38 PM	Interesting.... and is damage from a Swarm weaponlike? There's no attack roll involved.
CrimsonDeath 11-08-07, 03:31 AM	DR only applies to weapon (natural weapons are included) damage according to the DMG. Spells need to be weapon-like to count against DR (and some spells are ruled they are). Weapon-like? You mean, like, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, or Flame Blade? Those are "weapon-like" according to the definition of the term presented in Complete Arcane.
Dead_Weasel 11-08-07, 04:13 AM	Weapon-like? You mean, like, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, or Flame Blade? Those are "weapon-like" according to the definition of the term presented in Complete Arcane.Yes, but those examples only deal energy damage, which is never subject to DR.
CrimsonDeath 11-08-07, 11:39 AM	Yes, but those examples only deal energy damage, which is never subject to DR. So, being weaponlike isn't sufficient to determine whether DR affects the spell.
Subtle Knife 11-08-07, 12:28 PM	I found the link that describes the statistical progression of total and touch AC, saves, etc. with progression of CR: here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8968092&postcount=10) SK
Lokathor 11-08-07, 12:32 PM	Weapon-like? You mean, like, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, or Flame Blade? Those are "weapon-like" according to the definition of the term presented in Complete Arcane. But they're all also energy damage, and DR does not apply against energy damage.
CrimsonDeath 11-08-07, 03:31 PM	But they're all also energy damage, and DR does not apply against energy damage. Yeah, that was my point, and we covered that already anyway.
Lycanthromancer 11-08-07, 03:33 PM	Hardness, however, does. :P
Nephlite 11-08-07, 03:36 PM	Weapon-like? You mean, like, Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray, or Flame Blade? Those are "weapon-like" according to the definition of the term presented in Complete Arcane. I don't get the ruling either that some spells count: I'm just trying to understand why. Remember energy damage always bypass DR so none of those spells are worth discussing.
Lycanthromancer 11-08-07, 03:45 PM	Black blade of disaster?
Dead_Weasel 11-08-07, 05:11 PM	Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, *snip* All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons,Since DR does not apply to damage dealt by "normal" spells, it does not apply to weaponlike spells either... I think?
Lokathor 11-08-07, 06:12 PM	Yeah, that was my point, and we covered that already anyway. Sorry, missed page 2. Seems thats correct Dead_Weasel. CPsi is definitely in the wrong.
sijigs 11-08-07, 06:20 PM	Dead Weasel - you da man. CPsi.. never ceases to amaze me. LOL
Dead_Weasel 11-08-07, 07:36 PM	Look, the basic stance of the boards is this: ignore everything CP addresses that appears, in any form, anywhere else, regardless of chronology. If there are multiple sources, CP is wrong, even if it says the exact same thing as every other source. If CP introduces something, and no other source has reprinted or addressed it, CP might be right. ...probably not, though. I cannot, for the life of me, begin to understand how they found the time to nerf psionics when polymorph has been broken since 2nd Ed. It just boggles my mind. My mind is boggled! Ze goggles! Zey do nasing!
sijigs 11-08-07, 08:19 PM	ZEeee pplaannee, master!!!!
Scion of Coldshard 11-08-07, 08:29 PM	Crystal shard is nice but not really all that tough. Adding in reduction to its damage from DR reduces its effectiveness possibly below the threshold of use. d6 damage per level to a single target at close range with a chance for no damage is not really something most d4 hd classes are going to want to be using. Against those with lesser hp, such as themselves, most likely the foe will have a decent touch AC, miss chance, and possibly other effects as well. Against those with greater hp it'll take several shots just to have a chance of taking them out anyway. It is decently reliable damage but the amount just isnt all that impressive and the restrictions are rough, before adding DR to the mix.
Fafnir 11-09-07, 09:03 AM	Look, the basic stance of the boards is this: ignore everything CP addresses that appears, in any form, anywhere else, regardless of chronology. If there are multiple sources, CP is wrong, even if it says the exact same thing as every other source. If CP introduces something, and no other source has reprinted or addressed it, CP might be right. ...probably not, though. This is going straight into my sig. :D
Dead_Weasel 11-10-07, 01:14 AM	Crystal shard is nice but not really all that tough. Adding in reduction to its damage from DR reduces its effectiveness possibly below the threshold of use. d6 damage per level to a single target at close range with a chance for no damage is not really something most d4 hd classes are going to want to be using. Against those with lesser hp, such as themselves, most likely the foe will have a decent touch AC, miss chance, and possibly other effects as well. Against those with greater hp it'll take several shots just to have a chance of taking them out anyway. It is decently reliable damage but the amount just isnt all that impressive and the restrictions are rough, before adding DR to the mix.That is why the change is ridiculous; it is both unnecessary and internally inconsistent with the rules already in place.This is going straight into my sig. :DIt loses some of its effect without my emphases. C'est la vie. Has anyone thought about converting the Force Missile Mage PrC to focusing on the crystal X spells? That could be interesting.[/random thought]
Zathress 11-10-07, 08:15 PM	"Any damage-dealing metacreativity power that specifies piercing, slashing or bludgeoning damge does not automatically overcome a creatures damage reduction" The crystal powers aren't the only ones effected by DR. The druid spell splinterbolt (conjuration (creation)) is subject to DR and counts as magic and piercing for overcoming damage reduction. Before you jump up and down screaming splinterbolt is not subject to DR go read the spell compendium it is. The power of say crystal shard creates the crystals then hurls them towards the target. The crystals themselves are not magical. You could say stand outside an anti-psionics field and fire crystal spells at a target inside and they'd find there mark. Just as you can hit target inside antimagic fields with spells that are conjuration(creation) and have instantaneous durations (such as orb spells). As long as you cast the spell outside of it. The same thing that makes them able to bypass SR makes them vulnerable to DR if they have a damage type.
Scion of Coldshard 11-10-07, 11:59 PM	If one is going to bother applying it to psionics at all then it should definately also be applied to other forms of magic. Unfortunately the general rule for magic stayed the same while CPsi tried to add in an extra nerf for psionics. Applying bad to only one side doesnt seem terribly fair. Add that to it also being unnecessary for balance and you have a recipe for unhappy people.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-23-07, 05:52 PM	I've a question for you, about Crystal shard. Does Crystal shard bypass (minor) globe of invulnerability too? Thank you
Tedronai 12-24-07, 01:37 AM	Assuming the spell you're referring to blocks 1st level spells (don't recall the specifics of a MINOR globe of invulnerability), and psionics-magic transparency is being used, then Crystal Shard will be blocked as well, regardless of how many PPs you pump into it.
Sinfire Titan 12-24-07, 04:31 AM	if you're going to discuss the lack of logic when it comes to crystal shard being nonmagical yet bypasses immunity, i have a few questions for you: 1) where the heck does the nonmagical sound formed into an orb come from for a sonic orb? 2) where does the nonmagical cold formed into an orb come from for an orb of cold? bear in mind, cold weather doesn't do anywhere near the kind of damage an orb of cold can, no matter how cold... 3) where the heck do you find a nonmagical orb of force??? 4) how do you get an orb of pure, nonmagical fire? 5) assuming you can somehow locate an orb of these things (note that they are not actually substances) how the heck do you *keep* them in orb form? (short version: there's other stuff that is way less logical than crystal shard. you're playing D&D, not physics classroom puzzles) By that same logic, how the Nine Hells do you throw an Orb of Acid that just appeared in your hand?
Nabuchadnezzar 12-24-07, 05:53 AM	Assuming the spell you're referring to blocks 1st level spells (don't recall the specifics of a MINOR globe of invulnerability), and psionics-magic transparency is being used, then Crystal Shard will be blocked as well, regardless of how many PPs you pump into it. (Minor) Globe of invulnerability blocks spells of (3rd) 4th level or less, but magic involved in crystal shard is already gone, when you throw the non magical shard (created by magic). I supposed it worked like "create water" above the globe of invulnerability: water is not magical and sao would rain into the globe. Does this really not apply to Crystal shard?
SkipSandwich 12-24-07, 10:50 AM	the ruling that metacreativity powers that deal physical damage don't bypass DR has been around since the XPH, its not something new to CP, its in the SRD even.
Bacris 12-24-07, 11:23 AM	the ruling that metacreativity powers that deal physical damage don't bypass DR has been around since the XPH, its not something new to CP, its in the SRD even. I would love to see a quote and/or page number to back this claim up.
Slagger the Chuul 12-24-07, 11:41 AM	(Minor) Globe of invulnerability blocks spells of (3rd) 4th level or less, but magic involved in crystal shard is already gone, when you throw the non magical shard (created by magic). I supposed it worked like "create water" above the globe of invulnerability: water is not magical and sao would rain into the globe. Does this really not apply to Crystal shard? Technically speaking, crystal shard is a ray, and as such is incapable of firing into an area of suppressed psionics, such as an null psionics field. It's not that the item created is a problem, it's just that as part of a power the ray can't extend into the field, so you can't hit anything with it. While null psionics field in particular does state that "Creation powers with instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result.", this doesn't apply to crystal shard because the power is still in effect (as an instantaneous ray) when it's passing through the field. It's not explained how this works (although you could compare it to an ionized path, I guess), and you could pick up a leftover crystal and physically throw it into the area, but the power itself is incapable of firing into a suppressed area.
Zathress 12-24-07, 12:14 PM	From SRD on Null's Psionic Field "Creation powers with [/b]instantaneous durations[b] and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result." From SRD Antimagic Field "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." You are incorrect, any conjuration(creation) spell with an instantaneous duration is capable of entering a anti-magic field as long as its cast form the outside. For example an orb of fire spell will pass right through an antimagic field and strike the target inside, as long you cast it form the outside. Crystal Shard is Metacreativity (Creation) which is equivalent to conjuration(creation). NO mention is made that rays are exempt from the rule above. IF they were exempt it would say so. The line "except rays would be included in both null's psionic field and antimagic field. It doesn't matter that Crystal Shard is a ray it will pass right through a null's psionic field and strike the target just like an orb of fire would pass through an antimagic field. You can house rule it all you want but as RAW. ANY spell/power that is conjuration(creation) or metacreativity(creation) with an instantaneous effect WILL pass through an antimagic/null's psionic field. EFFECT means NOTHING, its duration, Blast of Flame a 4th level conjuration(creation) with 60ft cone. But as its duration is instantaneous it will pass through antimagic fields. As it is an instantaneous conjuration(creation) power. HOWEVER, globe of Invulnerability doesn't say how it functions it doesn't reference antimagic fields or that spells not subject to spell resistance pass through it. So if you treat a globe of invulnerability as a limited antimagic/psionics field then YES a crystal shard will pass right through it, and it is also reasonable to go along those lines. But one could argue that as they make no mention of antimagic fields at all in globe of invulnerability then No it wouldn't pass through.
Slagger the Chuul 12-24-07, 08:13 PM	From SRD on Null's Psionic Field "Creation powers with [/b]instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result." From SRD Antimagic Field "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." You are incorrect, any conjuration(creation) spell with an instantaneous duration is capable of entering a anti-magic field as long as its cast form the outside. For example an orb of fire spell will pass right through an antimagic field and strike the target inside, as long you cast it form the outside. Crystal Shard is Metacreativity (Creation) which is equivalent to conjuration(creation). The detail you're not paying attention to there is that instantaneous creations are only unaffected because the creative force is no longer in effect, only its result, which doesn't apply if the creation [B]is still in effect. In other words, the effect can still be subject to a suppressing field during the instant of its creation. If the attack also happens to occur during that time, it's potentially subject to interruption. It's similar to saying that "I can't get into my house because the door is locked". There is a particular condition that prevents the action. If the condition does not apply, the action is not prevented (I can enter the house if the door isn't locked). NO mention is made that rays are exempt from the rule above. IF they were exempt it would say so. The line "except rays would be included in both null's psionic field and antimagic field. Rays are not a specific exclusion, they can just be blocked because they happen to overlap the suppressing field during that instantaneous duration. Any similar effect that overlaps the field would be affected, ray or not. For example, even orb of acid, which does not use a ray, can be blocked because the attack occurs within the instantaneous duration of the spell (when the conjuration itself is still in effect). Shall I also discuss the part about having to fire crystal shard along the ground? :D
Zathress 12-24-07, 09:45 PM	So basically your saying the ENTIRE RULE. "Creation powers with instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result." Is invalid, it sounds like thats what your saying. An Orb of Fire cast outside an antimagic field WILL pass through it and strike the target. Conjuration(creation)/Metacreativity(creation) spells/powers ignore spell resistance BECAUSE the creative force is no longer in effect. If the creative force was still in effect Crystal Shard and the Orb spells would be subject to spell resistance. But there NOT because the magical force behind there creation is already gone. Think of it like this when you cast crystal shard the magic creates the shard and fires it like a bullet. The magic in its creation is gone before it strikes the target. NOTHING you say defeats the RAW. BY RAW ANY AND ALL spells and powers that are conjuration/metacreativity(creation) and a duration of instantaneous are not effected by an antimagic field if cast outside of it. EVEN if it does involve you hurling balls of fire from your hand or shooting shards of crystal from your finger tips. P.S Anything RAW that can nerf a spell that should have been restricted to artifacts is a good thing.
Slagger the Chuul 12-25-07, 07:21 AM	So basically your saying the ENTIRE RULE. "Creation powers with instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result." Is invalid, it sounds like thats what your saying. Just invalid for a power that attempts to fire an object into an null psionics field during the same instant it is created. During that instant, the power is still in effect. An Orb of Fire cast outside an antimagic field WILL pass through it and strike the target. Conjuration(creation)/Metacreativity(creation) spells/powers ignore spell resistance BECAUSE the creative force is no longer in effect. If the creative force was still in effect Crystal Shard and the Orb spells would be subject to spell resistance. But there NOT because the magical force behind there creation is already gone. Think of it like this when you cast crystal shard the magic creates the shard and fires it like a bullet. The magic in its creation is gone before it strikes the target. If the chunk of crystal is nonpsionic, why does it still use a touch attack? What if we go a step further and apply Burrowing Power? How does this chunk of mundane crystal jaunt through the Astral Plane? How does it pick exactly the right moment to dodge barriers? Was the psion attacking from a book depository? :)
Jaid 12-25-07, 01:24 PM	i might ask all the same questions about a supposedly nonmagical orb of force, slagger. if magic was treated the same way as a general rule, then i assure you there would be a lot less complaining about the nerf. but since i could make a magic spell identical to crystal shard (except that it would scale for free and probably cap at 5d6 or something) and it would bypass damage reduction, it's really hard to accept that somehow making it a psionic power changes the situation in any way.
Slagger the Chuul 12-25-07, 08:20 PM	i might ask all the same questions about a supposedly nonmagical orb of force, slagger. If you mean the bit about orb spells in general ignoring spell resistance, that's reasonably straightforward; the spell might simply create the substance, then use further power to apply it to the target in ways impossible without magic. A created substance (which is not subject to spell resistance any more than a common rock) is thrown at the target by using magical energies. I agree that the idea of using force in this way is kind of stupid, especially since as an instantaneous creation, the nice blue orb of force will hang around until someone disintegrates it, unless you originally fired it into an antimagic field, in which case it can potentially be blocked. if magic was treated the same way as a general rule, then i assure you there would be a lot less complaining about the nerf. but since i could make a magic spell identical to crystal shard (except that it would scale for free and probably cap at 5d6 or something) and it would bypass damage reduction, it's really hard to accept that somehow making it a psionic power changes the situation in any way. On that topic I have a basic houserule that physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) is subject to damage reduction (depending on type of course). This is regardless of its source; even damage from hitting the ground can be reduced (it's just another physical blow, like a club). I occasionally suppress it if the way the damage is applied would obviously bypass the damage reduction, like a spell that grows piercing needles inside a target wearing adamantine armour.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-25-07, 08:38 PM	Is nerfed Crystal shard (CPsi) still worth having over, say, Energy ray? Energy ray does better damage overall (1d6+1/pp if you choose cold or fire, or you have a +3 bonus if the enemy is wearing metal armor and you choose electricity), you can choose damage and is amazing in disrupting objects, but it's PR: YES Crystal shard is PR: NO but DR: YES and deal 1d6/pp Also, empowered energy ray >> empowered crystal shard due to that +1 damage per dice
Scion of Coldshard 12-25-07, 08:45 PM	While I find that letting DR work makes sense it does nerf the power in a way that I feel it shouldnt. I think that something should be added on to compensate for it in some way if it is used.
CrimsonDeath 12-25-07, 11:43 PM	I agree that the idea of using force in this way is kind of stupid, especially since as an instantaneous creation, the nice blue orb of force will hang around until someone disintegrates it, unless you originally fired it into an antimagic field, in which case it can potentially be blocked. As I understand, there is no "unless" there. A mage standing outside an AMF or NPF can fire Orbs (including those of Force) at people inside. And they don't do bludgeoning damage, either.
Slagger the Chuul 12-26-07, 03:42 AM	As I understand, there is no "unless" there. A mage standing outside an AMF or NPF can fire Orbs (including those of Force) at people inside. And they don't do bludgeoning damage, either. I'm not talking about the damage reduction (or what damage type); I mean completely blocked by virtue of reaching into an antimagic field or null psionics field within the instantaneous duration of the spell. Instantaneous conjurations are only said to be unaffected by antimagic field because the conjuration itself is already complete, leaving only its result. By making an attack within its own "Instantaneous" duration, the orb spells can still be suppressed. This potential to interrupt helps to prevent situations like Burrowing Power with crystal shard in a null psionics field.
hovnarr 12-26-07, 06:15 AM	The Crystal X powers are back-up alternatives. Their effect is completely unimpressive if weighed against other powers. About the only time you'd spend an action on them is when you're dealing with a) A high SR/PR target and Ectoplasmic Coccoon or using Astral Construct/Metamorphosis is not efficient for some reason b) An AMF/NPF a) almost never comes up. When it does, you're probably in epic and have access to Tornado Blast instead, which is much more efficient. In epic, rays (crystal shard) and anything with saves (cocoon) are pretty much out. b) What manner of creature has significant DR and uses AMF/NPF? Perhaps a dragon? Still, it seems like it would hurt the dragon even more, and for what - reducing the effectiveness of the psion by a tad? Even DR 15 << damage potential of a high level crystal shard. As you can see, allowing or not allowing DR for the crystal powers is pretty irrelevant.
CrimsonDeath 12-26-07, 06:39 PM	What if we go a step further and apply Burrowing Power? How does this chunk of mundane crystal jaunt through the Astral Plane? How does it pick exactly the right moment to dodge barriers? The metapsionic feat is what forces the chunk of mundane crystal through the astral plane, and the Psion chooses the exact right moment to dodge the barrier (by making a Psicraft check). I understand that feats (including metapsionic feats) are extraordinary abilities unless stated otherwise, and metapsionic feats (including Burrowing Power) don't state otherwise. So, it should work fine in an AMF/NPF, assuming the power itself operates there. I'm not talking about the damage reduction (or what damage type); I mean completely blocked by virtue of reaching into an antimagic field or null psionics field within the instantaneous duration of the spell. Instantaneous conjurations are only said to be unaffected by antimagic field because the conjuration itself is already complete, leaving only its result. By making an attack within its own "Instantaneous" duration, the orb spells can still be suppressed. This potential to interrupt helps to prevent situations like Burrowing Power with crystal shard in a null psionics field. Unless conjurations (or metacreations) can create not only matter, but also energy. Suppose, for example, that the "instantaneous" duration doesn't actually mean that its duration is zero, but simply less than one round (perhaps up to three seconds, about the time required to perform a standard action). In that case, the crystal shards themselves are created in the manifester's space, and at that point are imbued with mechanical energy and therefor momentum. It is this now nonmagical momentum that carries the nonmagical objects to their destination-- the target. Note that this is basically the way CustServ has stated that the Orbs work. Also, my comment about bludgeoning damage was to point out that Lesser Orb of Force is actually superior to the hypothetical spell that Jaid proposed, on the grounds that it ignores DR and invariably strikes incorporeal creatures. And what does Burrowing Power have to do with NPF? How often does someone inside an NPF and behind cover pose a threat? Also, hovnarr, it should be noted that, as a Dragon's DR is Supernatural, it would be suppressed in an AMF anyway.
hovnarr 12-26-07, 06:53 PM	Also, hovnarr, it should be noted that, as a Dragon's DR is Supernatural, it would be suppressed in an AMF anyway. Thanks! Well, there you go! In that case, I'd like to hear A SINGLE REALISTIC EXAMPLE (doesn't have to come up often) where the DR of a Crystal X power would come into play, given that a psion who knows the power most likely has 2-3 other powers to damage opponents to choose from, one of them being physical damage (construct, metamorphosis, animated stuff, TK thrown objects), one energy (most likely an area effect) and possibly one force effect (concussion blast or something TK). NOT TO MENTION that causing damage in itself is probably number 3-4 on the list of what you're hoping to accomplish as a psion in combat. If no such example presents itself, I will conclude that the DR nerf of the Crystal powers was as unnecessary as it was irrelevant. They might as well have erratad that the shard, in fact, has a blueish tinge to it.
Sinfire Titan 12-26-07, 09:31 PM	b) What manner of creature has significant DR and uses AMF/NPF? Perhaps a dragon? Still, it seems like it would hurt the dragon even more, and for what - reducing the effectiveness of the psion by a tad? Even DR 15 << damage potential of a high level crystal shard. As you can see, allowing or not allowing DR for the crystal powers is pretty irrelevant. Vampires, for one, Lycans for two. Then anything with Regen stopped by fire damage. You need alchemy or a torch to stop it, as Regen is Ex. Dragon's DR is supernatural in origin, suppressed in AMF.
Slagger the Chuul 12-26-07, 09:39 PM	Unless conjurations (or metacreations) can create not only matter, but also energy. Suppose, for example, that the "instantaneous" duration doesn't actually mean that its duration is zero, but simply less than one round (perhaps up to three seconds, about the time required to perform a standard action). In that case, the crystal shards themselves are created in the manifester's space, and at that point are imbued with mechanical energy and therefor momentum. It is this now nonmagical momentum that carries the nonmagical objects to their destination-- the target. Note that this is basically the way CustServ has stated that the Orbs work. If they're really nonmagical, they wouldn't still be attacking as a spell. What they're offering as an explanation describes the violent thrust option of telekinesis (or telekinetic thrust), not how orbs (or crystal shard) work. And what does Burrowing Power have to do with NPF? How often does someone inside an NPF and behind cover pose a threat? They aren't, usually, unless they're just ducking behind a corner. Burrowing Power simply demonstrates the silliness of the standard approach, because the standard assumption that crystal shard (and orbs) can be fired into suppressing fields supports a scenario where a completely suppressed chunk of crystal goes plane-hopping. The alternative (that the attacks of orbs and shards cannot penetrate a suppressing field) is potentially valid considering the way the rules are described and doesn't have the same problems. All it requires is the assumption that either the effect creates the item and guides/propels it to its intended target, or that the item is still being pulled together as it is launched. They might as well have erratad that the shard, in fact, has a blueish tinge to it. But, but, but, it's not related to Incarnum. :)
Nirid 12-26-07, 11:56 PM	If they're really nonmagical, they wouldn't still be attacking as a spell. What they're offering as an explanation describes the violent thrust option of telekinesis (or telekinetic thrust), not how orbs (or crystal shard) work. Ok so these spells and powers include a small amount of TK thrust to hurl them as part of the spell. The only reason you say they are "attacking like a spell" is that they require touch attacks rather then full on attack rolls against full AC. It's always been my opinion that the major reason for spells favoring touch attacks is that most casters are 1/2 BAB or 3/4 at best. They are consuming a limited resource to do something that most physical characters can do better and more often. They also can't add +hit as easily. If they had to roll against full AC the spells would probably never hit at all. Imagine a powerful level 20 wizard wants to Polar Ray a red dragon. 10 BAB and let's say a conservative +5 from Dex means that to hit a CR 20 red he would have to roll an 18 or better. Most physical classes would be threatening crits off that. If he didn't manage to roll an 18 he's effectively wasted a very limited commodity. Heck even if he did hit (he would beat SR easily) he'd still only do 105 damage on average. That's with an elemental attack he's vunerable against. If it were untyped damage it would only be 70. I'm certain a fighter can manage 70 damage in a turn, even if DR were a factor. I'm not saying Crystal Shard makes sense logically speaking since it bypasses DR, is a touch attack, and is PR no; but it makes about as much sense as the fact that I can form crystals to hurl at you with my mind in the first place.
hovnarr 12-27-07, 06:47 AM	Vampires, for one, Lycans for two. Then anything with Regen stopped by fire damage. You need alchemy or a torch to stop it, as Regen is Ex. Dragon's DR is supernatural in origin, suppressed in AMF. You're suggesting that a vampire spellcaster use AMF in combat against a party? While perhaps an unlikely opponent, it is possible, but is it beneficial? Look here: Damage Reduction (Su) A vampire has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Again, DR is irrelevant, as the (Su) ability is surpressed. Fast Healing (Ex) normally keeps it alive since it's immune to damage in gaseous form, only: Gaseous Form (Su) As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. Assuming gaseous form is also (Su)! So what happens when a vampire reaches 0 hp in an AMF? I suppose it's up to DM interpretation. At any rate, all the scary vampire abilities are (Su), so it would pretty much be a waste of a template to put it in an AMF. Either way, I don't see the DR errata affecting the encounter at all.
Solstysse 12-27-07, 12:51 PM	We have to remember who's using crystal shard. Psions are, hopefully, intelligent beings...knowing that using a power that has to overcome armor would be less effect than one that bypasses it. (And don't discount all the bonuses that DO apply to touch ac guys...they're out there) As long as the ray hits them the shard cannot fail...just think of it as the ray engulfing the victim and the shard materializing within the the beam and striking true. As for no saving throw...how are you going to save against something that's already engulfed you? You can slide out of the way or will it not to hit you...it's already established that it's nailed you. Most powers have power resistance....this is just one that doesn't. Something you'll have to live with...some spells don't allow spell resistance. It happens. I've heard a similar argument about Mind Thrust being overpowered...but then I remind people that I just got through playing a 10 month long game in karrnath...undead everywhere = mind thrust not happening...ever. So there are things that balance it out. One last thing...shame shame DM and other players for patrolling the boards and getting upset at players for posting something. A player can post any question they like...and get an answer based on what they get gave us to go off of. If they didn't represent the situation appropriately the answer they got back probably won't be a good one for them to base their arguments on later. Besides the eternal struggle between player and dm is half the fun of the game...believe me...I'm a psion 3/wizard 3/cerembromancer 9 (oh the wrath...my whole group thinks psionics is broken but no one complains when I save their lives (i'm an egoist) or put their arms back on and I'm married to my dm...and I live to get my way and argue rules) so I know all about argueing with the dm. There are certain things in psionics that balance it out...and apparently one a psion sees them. LoL.
Slagger the Chuul 12-27-07, 01:09 PM	I'm not saying Crystal Shard makes sense logically speaking since it bypasses DR, is a touch attack, and is PR no; but it makes about as much sense as the fact that I can form crystals to hurl at you with my mind in the first place. It does make sense logically, at least if you accept the idea that it can't penetrate a suppressing field (if only because its attack is still a power).
Sinfire Titan 12-27-07, 02:17 PM	You're suggesting that a vampire spellcaster use AMF in combat against a party? While perhaps an unlikely opponent, it is possible, but is it beneficial? Look here: Again, DR is irrelevant, as the (Su) ability is surpressed. Fast Healing (Ex) normally keeps it alive since it's immune to damage in gaseous form, only: Assuming gaseous form is also (Su)! So what happens when a vampire reaches 0 hp in an AMF? I suppose it's up to DM interpretation. At any rate, all the scary vampire abilities are (Su), so it would pretty much be a waste of a template to put it in an AMF. Either way, I don't see the DR errata affecting the encounter at all. My bad on the Vamps, I forgot about the (and Magic) part of the DR.
CrimsonDeath 12-27-07, 08:05 PM	Thanks! Well, there you go! In that case, I'd like to hear A SINGLE REALISTIC EXAMPLE (doesn't have to come up often) where the DR of a Crystal X power would come into play Raptoran Cleric lich archer in an AMF. DR/magic and bludgeoning. DR/magic goes away in the AMF, but DR/bludgeoning stays. (At least, I'm pretty sure the two types of DR are checked separately for suppression. They're listed together as (su), but the MM glossary states that DR/bludgeoning is Extraordinary, so I'm pretty sure it's listed under (su) because of the DR/magic.)
Nabuchadnezzar 12-27-07, 09:21 PM	or a simple skeleton in an AMF created by an evil cleric who dominates the skelly
CrimsonDeath 12-28-07, 02:21 AM	Or a golem in an AMF. DR/adamantine is (Ex).
hovnarr 12-28-07, 04:36 AM	I'm thinking a raptoran lich archer is in pretty dire straits in an AMF. Seeing as most of the cool stuff (from cleric and lich) are off the menu. Also, the skeleton couldn't be actively controlled in an AMF. An AMF golem DOES seem like something a DM could come up with however. Perhaps there are already AMF golems statted up in some supplement? It's not a stretch for the already magic immune golem, after all. I concede that the DR errata would have an actual game effect in this case. However, by the time a DM puts you up against an AMF golem, I assume everyone in the party will have a means of flight. That means you're safe from harm, and if that's the case, it doesn't really matter if you attack is a bit less efficient than normal.
moebius00 12-29-07, 09:30 AM	The Crystal X powers are back-up alternatives. Their effect is completely unimpressive if weighed against other powers. About the only time you'd spend an action on them is when you're dealing with a) A high SR/PR target and Ectoplasmic Coccoon or using Astral Construct/Metamorphosis is not efficient for some reason b) An AMF/NPF Crystal Shard is not instantaneous and, as such, is blocked by an AMF. Which is stupid. I actually use the shard quite a bit: 1) against Golems, who tend to be immune to everything else I can do; 2) against high SR "named" NPCs, who tend to have few HP but high saves/energy resistance. I agree I could probably find better things to do for #2.
Jaid 12-29-07, 11:41 AM	Crystal Shard is not instantaneous [snip] Crystal Shard Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Psion/wilder 1 Display: Auditory and material Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Ray Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 you're sure about that, are you?
moebius00 12-29-07, 05:59 PM	you're sure about that, are you? Oops...fwiw I believe you are right: Anti-Magic Field (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) So Orbs and Shards fired into an AMF both work, as they are Instantaneous Conjurations. Also, friendly advice: you could tone down the attitude and make an argument if you think someone's point is off.
Jaid 12-29-07, 06:54 PM	friendly advice: assume that whenever you can't hear tone of voice, (for example, when on a message board) the person is speaking in the least offensive manner the given sentence could be delivered in were the tone of voice different. this will generally prevent you from responding incorrectly to facetiousness, sarcasm, and other similar concepts that are largely indicated via tone of voice. now then, that being said, i would have to say i did fairly well in terms of 'not having an attitude' even if you do assume i was trying to. i provided my argument in the form of quoting the rules twice (once to indicate which argument i was refuting, and one so that it could be seen that i wasn't just making things up), and then expressed my opinion that you were wrong. i did not resort to name-calling, i didn't drag it out longer than necessary... what exactly is your problem with the response? even when interpreted in the least courteous manner possible, it really isn't particularly insulting or offensive.
Lycanthromancer 12-30-07, 02:32 PM	I read Jaid's post with a :P behind it. :D
Slagger the Chuul 12-30-07, 07:02 PM	So Orbs and Shards fired into an AMF both work, as they are Instantaneous Conjurations. By making delivering an attack while the spell/power is still in effect (during its instantaneous duration), they can both be blocked. Anyone who still thinks they can penetrate a suppressing field is going to have to answer issues like the burrowing crystal shard. I have mentioned a lot, but it's a perfect example of how much the spells/powers are still in effect.
Scion of Coldshard 12-30-07, 07:22 PM	Anyone who still thinks they can penetrate a suppressing field is going to have to answer issues like the burrowing crystal shard. I have mentioned a lot, but it's a perfect example of how much the spells/powers are still in effect. Since crystal shard isnt a targetted power and burrowing power is only useful on powers that target it is unlikely to come up as an issue. ;)
Jaid 12-30-07, 08:16 PM	By making delivering an attack while the spell/power is still in effect (during its instantaneous duration), they can both be blocked. nonsense. there are plenty of nonmagical attacks that are based on touch attack rolls. a touch attack is just a type of attack roll. there's nothing magical about it.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-30-07, 08:42 PM	The area inside a (lesser) globe of invulnerability is interdicted. The globe blocks line of effect, so the ray cannot pass through the globe. Crystal shard would fail because the effect (ray) may not include the area of (lesser) globe of invulnerability. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. But Crystal shard will work through an antimagic field, if you manifest the power outside the field.
Slagger the Chuul 12-31-07, 05:00 AM	nonsense. there are plenty of nonmagical attacks that are based on touch attack rolls. a touch attack is just a type of attack roll. there's nothing magical about it. It's not really the point, but how many of them are made of pointy bits of crystal? If the suppressing field is preventing psionics, why is a crystal shard a touch attack when a crystal-tipped arrow is a normal attack? Of course, there's more to it than just touch attacks. Since crystal shard isnt a targetted power and burrowing power is only useful on powers that target it is unlikely to come up as an issue. Don't like Burrowing Power? We've also got Transdimensional Power, so we can have an allegedly mundane crystal that can hit targets on adjacent planes of reality. Powers aren't alone, though; our friendly orb spells have transdimensional potential as well, along with things like Chain Spell and Energy Admixture (I'd throw in Chain Power if there was an energy power equivalent to the orb spells). How about a ball of nonmagical acid that plays hopscotch with up to 20 additional targets, or a nonmagical sphere that simultaneously consists of intense cold and heat without negating itself on the way to its target? The area inside a (lesser) globe of invulnerability is interdicted. The globe blocks line of effect, so the ray cannot pass through the globe. Crystal shard would fail because the effect (ray) may not include the area of (lesser) globe of invulnerability. But Crystal shard will work through an antimagic field, if you manifest the power outside the field. It won't work in a suppressing field because its status as an instantaneous creation power doesn't render it immune unless the power is complete. Here's the relevant line from null psionics field with the important part highlighted. "Creation powers with instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result." In other words, if the power is still in effect (as crystal shard and the orb spells are when the attack occurs), then they can be blocked. The creation of the substance and the attack both occur within the duration of the power.
CrimsonDeath 12-31-07, 04:05 PM	Don't like Burrowing Power? We've also got Transdimensional Power, so we can have an allegedly mundane crystal that can hit targets on adjacent planes of reality. Transdimensional Spell simply puts the material on a coexistent plane of reality. It can be completely nonmagical once it gets there.
Verenal 12-31-07, 05:53 PM	Metapsionic feats are invalid examples of crystal shard's interaction with an AMF or a NPF, because they are extraordinary abilities.
Slagger the Chuul 12-31-07, 11:11 PM	Transdimensional Spell simply puts the material on a coexistent plane of reality. It can be completely nonmagical once it gets there. That would be true if you simply picked a coexistent plane, but a transdimensional power/spell can simultaneously strike targets on separate coexistent planes (like an ethereal traveler and a creature inside a rope trick). Otherwise, you would be correct. Metapsionic feats are invalid examples of crystal shard's interaction with an AMF or a NPF, because they are extraordinary abilities. That's exactly the point. Although the feats themselves are technically extraordinary, the affected power or spell behaves in ways that are so blatantly non-mundane that penetrating a suppressing field is ridiculous. The spell or power is clearly still in effect on the object entering the suppressing field.