Post/Author/DateTime	Post
highinquisitorlord 12-03-07, 07:24 PM	So in my local gaming group, we have a psionic character who loves to use death urge. The problem is, the power not only has the potential to do significant damage considering the NPC has to do a full round attack action against itself that counts as a critical hit, but also they can't do anything else for the round since they were attacking themselves. I love to see my player succeed, but the other members of my group complain that death urge is too powerful for the level when compared to other spells/abilities of similar levels. So what do you all think? Have you had problems with this before. Thanks for your help HIL
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 07:41 PM	Well, it's Mind-Affecting, so plenty of things are immune to it (undead, constructs, plants, and vermin, for instance). Also note that for level 2 spells, Clerics get Hold Person and Wizards get Tasha's Hideous Laughter. They don't do any damage, but they can take an opponent out of combat for multiple rounds.
Patrikc 12-03-07, 08:13 PM	My DM also found it too powerful, and ruled to interpret the phrase "the subject attacks itself as a full-round action" as a single attack that takes a full-round action. As an argument he gave that the power has a pretty good synergy; creatures that lack a good Will save often have good melee capabilities. I myself don't think it's too powerful, just really nice in certain situations. Oh, and I can't wait to get Psychic Crush (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicCrush.htm) ;).
highinquisitorlord 12-03-07, 08:36 PM	In my opinion, it is not the fact that the power is a full round attack action that counts as a critical hit, or that it is a full round action. My issue is the power not only acts like a hold person, not allowing the NPC/PC to do anything that round but attack itself. Not to mention when they do attack them self it can be for horrific damage because attack is an automatic hit that is considered a critical. It is a double whammy. As a DM though, I don't like to take anything a way from my players unless it is truly unbalancing. Although I must say, two of my players think that power is out of balance because they can't find any other spells or powers of equivalent power at that level. The other side of the coin is the player who plays the psion thinks it is not a problem at all, who loves the power. So I am hoping to get some solid feedback from other players and DMs so I can make an educated decision. Thanks HIL
hogarth 12-03-07, 08:46 PM	It doesn't seem any worse than Confusion (also takes opponents out of action, causing them to harm each other, but works vs. multiple creatures for multiple rounds) or Charm Monster (takes an opponent out of action for multiple rounds, might even help you, has non-combat uses). I have to admit that I'm a little biased against it though; the psion in one of my groups has tried it a few times, but we usually fight big groups of bruisers -- one enemy hurting itself seems like a drop in the bucket.
The_Wild_King 12-03-07, 09:05 PM	If the other players think it's overpowered, throw them against a group of undead and let them shine
CrimsonDeath 12-03-07, 09:22 PM	Although I must say, two of my players think that power is out of balance because they can't find any other spells or powers of equivalent power at that level. Phantasmal Killer is a level 4 Sor/Wiz spell can kill the target. Is that close enough?
highinquisitorlord 12-03-07, 09:36 PM	Phantasmal Killer is a level 4 Sor/Wiz spell can kill the target. Is that close enough? We looked at that, but characters get two different saves: a will save and a fort save before the character dies. That is not the case with Death Urge. Not to mention, NPC/PC are probably going to have either a good fort and weak will, or vise versa, which in our opinion a PC or NPC is most likely to make one of those two saves. So we generally agree that spell is weaker, in our opinion. HIL
JimProfit 12-03-07, 09:44 PM	Let's compare it to the save or die spell of that level. Phantasmal Killer vs Death Urge. Powerpoints generaly are more costly then spells-per-day, 7pp will set you back, especialy if they don't manage to kill themself within the first turn, you you might want to invest in augmentation (+4pp per round) to insure it. Phantasmal Killer, if they succeed at will saving throw, they have to then make a fortitude saving throw or immideatly die. No questions. Even if they succeed, they take 3d6 damage. Another cheap level 4 spell is envervation. Death by negative levels.
sijigs 12-03-07, 09:54 PM	I think this is the first time I've seen this being mention as overpowered. It's save or suck so you're taking chances and as pointed out there are a lot of creatures immune to it. IMO it's more a fun power. :D I'd rather fire out Crystal Shard.. 7d6, touch attack, no save for half, no resistance. FTW.
PhaedrusXY 12-04-07, 12:59 AM	Mind Affecting, allows a save, and is not a guaranteed death effect, but instead inflicts damage and takes them out of the fight for a round. Sounds about right for 4th level, since full-fledged "save or dies" start at 5th level (Slay Living). I really don't see how this could be overpowered.
MindFlayerZoidberg 12-04-07, 01:04 AM	I think it is powerful. The Psion in my campaign uses it and it has been very effective. But even though it is more powerful than other save or suck/die spells of similar levels because you can augment it, you can't till level 9 (with overchannel). And at that point you have better powers, like Cranial Deluge at 5th level that is a (18d6) save of die/head exploding awesomeness that augments at 2 PP instead of 4. However Wizards get Dominate Person at 5th, which is much more powerful than a save or die. Overall, I think Death Urge is an slightly overpowered spell for Psions at lvl 7-8. Just like how Mind Thrust is overpowered at level 3-4 (though some may disagree with me), but loses its effectiveness in later levels.
Sagetim 12-04-07, 02:27 AM	In my opinion, it is not the fact that the power is a full round attack action that counts as a critical hit, or that it is a full round action. My issue is the power not only acts like a hold person, not allowing the NPC/PC to do anything that round but attack itself. Not to mention when they do attack them self it can be for horrific damage because attack is an automatic hit that is considered a critical. It is a double whammy. As a DM though, I don't like to take anything a way from my players unless it is truly unbalancing. Although I must say, two of my players think that power is out of balance because they can't find any other spells or powers of equivalent power at that level. The other side of the coin is the player who plays the psion thinks it is not a problem at all, who loves the power. So I am hoping to get some solid feedback from other players and DMs so I can make an educated decision. Thanks HIL well, you could always point out that a hold person spell allows the party rogue to get automatic sneaks on the person affected, which can add up to far more than a single critical hit. Also, the wording of the power implies that it's ONE attack. Along the lines of lining up your sword and stabbing it into your gut or face. Thus, a full round action to critcial hit oneself. NOT a full attack action, in which it would be multiple attacks. The power can be amped. But I find it doubtful that every foe your party meets would have a will save low enough to be hit by death urge. As well, at best, it takes one opponent out of combat for one round. If your players are fighting more than one opponent, you'll be fine. Especially if you have them facing two or three foes. The psion can target maybe one person, if they boom out that power every round for the max they can, they'll burn out of thier pp's pretty fast. Then your problem has solved itself, for the psion will be an easy target in combat once they are out of or near out of pp.
SlanderPanic 12-04-07, 12:49 PM	I wouldn't say death urge is overpowered. It is, however, just plain mean. It's one of those powers you have to be kind of a jerk to use, like decerebrate and baleful teleport. It's the psionic equivalent of the middle finger.
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 12:54 PM	I wouldn't say death urge is overpowered. It is, however, just plain mean. It's one of those powers you have to be kind of a jerk to use, like decerebrate and baleful teleport. It's the psionic equivalent of the middle finger. Better than suffering the arcane equivalent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm).
SlanderPanic 12-04-07, 01:07 PM	Certainly. Needless to say, death urge is one of my favorite powers.
Sysane 12-04-07, 02:21 PM	Note, a creature attacking itself doesn't equate it to being totally helpless. Meaning, that the creature doesn't lose its Dex or the like just because its attacking itself. The DM also has the option of making the creature subject itself to a leathal hazard instead of attacking itself. Clever DMs could actually use this to better the creature's situation and screw the PCs if played correctly.
PhaedrusXY 12-04-07, 02:37 PM	well, you could always point out that a hold person spell allows the party rogue to get automatic sneaks on the person affectedActually, it is alot worse than that. It lets you Coup De Grace them. Hold Person is potentially alot more powerful against a humanoid than Death Urge, and it is 2 levels lower. You just need an ally with a heavy pick and power attack to deliver the Coup De Grace (or a rogue). :P
Scion of Coldshard 12-04-07, 02:43 PM	I would say that black tentacles, confusion, and enervation are all significantly more powerful than death urge ;) Even sound burst is a simple 'save or be out of the fight for long enough to potentially kill you and you drop your weapon'.
AntiDjinn 12-04-07, 04:52 PM	Death Urge is situationally very powerful (if the subject just happens to be standing next to a pool of lava, then what could be more obvious as the quickest method to end its life?), but given its limitations, it is likely just at the upper end of the bell curve for 4th level powers rather than overpowered. If I were to make any change, it would be to make it Telepath 4 instead of Psion/Wilder 4. One strength not mentioned so far: Even if it doesn't kill your target outright, it gives you a preview of what that creature's single best shot is (at least in regard to the creature's own defenses). Alternately, if the subject uses something from the area (throws itself into a fire, etc.) it gives you an idea of what type of damage the creature regards as most dangerous. One major weakness: You don't pick the method, the subject does. This can be open to interpretation, and is dependent on the subject's perception of what the most dangerous means at hand might be. An auto-attack is not a given, it is only cited as an example. If the subject decides that the quickest way to off itself is to shove its wand of fireballs up a nostril and shoot, and you are in the same small room, then you won't be very happy. Note: Noting in the power says the subject seeks to prevent others from being harmed by its suicide attempts. Nothing says they don't still want to take you with them. If you feel the power is being abused then one way to teach the player caution and restraint is Redopsi. A given psion probably has more means to end his own life in a single round than your average melee type does. Aside: The absolute best use of this power: Target someone who has the Body Fuel feat. What could possibly be a quicker way to go than zeroing your Con (all 3 physical stats, actually) as a free action?
PhaedrusXY 12-04-07, 06:35 PM	Nothing in the power says the subject seeks to prevent others from being harmed by its suicide attempts. Nothing says they don't still want to take you with them.LOL, that is awesome. Now I have an image of an NPC Archmage breaking his Staff of the Magi over his knee and leaving a smoking crater where the party once was. :D
CrimsonDeath 12-04-07, 07:33 PM	If you feel the power is being abused then one way to teach the player caution and restraint is Redopsi. A given psion probably has more means to end his own life in a single round than your average melee type does. In fact, some Nova builds rely on it...
Sysane 12-04-07, 07:45 PM	The creature may very well set off a trap that it knows of in the area which may also effect the PCs in turn. As far as it causing the target to use items, spells/powers, or feats to end its own life. By the RAW of Death Urge, it would not use them as a method to kill itself. The power makes the creature attack itself if armed. If without a weapon, the creature attempts to give up an AoO. If without a weapon or no creature is near by to give an AoO to, it stands and does nothing for the round. If a lethal hazard along the lines of a cliff or a blazing fire is near it would seek to use it as an alternate means of death.
hovnarr 12-05-07, 10:39 AM	Compare it with Dominate. Would you rather have one enemy taken care of for one round and deal damage to itself, or convert one enemy to an ally for as long as you wish to pay for? Same save, [mind-affecting] etc. Basically, if you rely on the target failing a will save anyway, why bother with Death Urge when there is Dominate? Or even Charm? Or Ego Whip? Death Urge is pretty far from being too powerful. Compare it to Energy Stun for example.
Breetai 12-05-07, 10:58 AM	So in my local gaming group, we have a psionic character who loves to use death urge. The problem is, the power not only has the potential to do significant damage considering the NPC has to do a full round attack action against itself that counts as a critical hit, but also they can't do anything else for the round since they were attacking themselves. I love to see my player succeed, but the other members of my group complain that death urge is too powerful for the level when compared to other spells/abilities of similar levels. So what do you all think? Have you had problems with this before. Thanks for your help HIL Inquistitor. The Problem is that the psionic system has always, and always will be, a broken over powered system for pure hardcore power gamers who like to ignore game balance. Always has been the case and always will be. They like to lie to themselves and others about it being balanced but that's it's no different than arguing it was balanced in the other systems.
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 11:25 AM	Um...no. Have you even READ the core magic system? Seriously, have you? (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D10768110%23post1076 8110\) I mean, really. In the interest of brevity and of stamping out a troll right away, I suggest that Breetai's posts be ignored on this forum from this point forth (including this thread). Bye-bye, Breetai.
Lokiyn 12-05-07, 11:25 AM	Inquistitor. The Problem is that the psionic system has always, and always will be, a broken over powered system for pure hardcore power gamers who like to ignore game balance. Always has been the case and always will be. They like to lie to themselves and others about it being balanced but that's it's no different than arguing it was balanced in the other systems. even though i know where this will lead, Why? What Objective measurement are you using to determine this, time and time again the system has be shown to be mechanically weaker that even core only magic. Now if Subjectively you feel that psionics is overpowered then you can go sit in the corner with the flat earth theorists and wait for your common sense to kick in.
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 11:26 AM	LOKIYN! NOOOOOOOO!
Bacris 12-05-07, 11:43 AM	The Problem is that the magic system has always, and always will be, a broken over powered system for pure hardcore power gamers who like to ignore game balance. Always has been the case and always will be. They like to lie to themselves and others about it being balanced by houserules but that's it's no different than arguing it was balanced in the other systems. Fixed that for ya.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 12-05-07, 11:48 AM	LOKYIN! Please! Think of the childrens! And the bag of kitties I got there...
Breetai 12-05-07, 12:07 PM	even though i know where this will lead, Why? What Objective measurement are you using to determine this, time and time again the system has be shown to be mechanically weaker that even core only magic. Now if Subjectively you feel that psionics is overpowered then you can go sit in the corner with the flat earth theorists and wait for your common sense to kick in. There's nothing subjective about it. The arguments that it's balanced are being made by the same crowd who were arguing 1st and 2nd editiion Psionics were balanced back in the day. Which explains the demand for a point system and inability of current Psion players to be honest and look at the system objectively. No matter how over powered it is arguments from Psionic players will flow in that it's not.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 12:08 PM	No offense, and you can call me a Troll too if you must, but I find the Psion overpowered as well. You can yell at me, and tell me I'm crazy, but it doesn't change an informed opinion. I am not looking to argue, hell I don't even feel like backing up my opinion to make it an argument, I simply think that what it's always going to boil down to is personal opinion and preference. I don't hate the Psion, and I don't hate the concept. I am not telling anyone not to play one, but I think that for those who take the time to say WHY they feel as they do one way or the other, those listening should be respectful, and mature enough not to bash the poster simply because they prefer the Psionic system to the core one. -RW p.s. Psion players will always say the system is balanced or even underpowered, and will always point out that only one or two people complain about the system here, but this is the Psionics board. Generally you come here because you like Psionics, not because you wish to bash it.
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 12:17 PM	I don't hate the Psion, and I don't hate the concept. I am not telling anyone not to play one, but I think that for those who take the time to say WHY they feel as they do one way or the other, those listening should be respectful, and mature enough not to bash the poster simply because they prefer the Psionic system to the core one. Note that only very, very rarely does anyone put a well reasoned arguement out for why they feel that psionics is overpowered and the vast majority of those are either forgetting a rule or are focusing on one or two problem powers or are simply ignoring opportunity cost with respect to one side of their equation which gives odd results. Breetai does not deserve a respectful listening to based on his first post in this thread. It was seemingly designed simply to cause strife and be incredibly rude while doing so.
Bacris 12-05-07, 12:19 PM	No offense, and you can call me a Troll too if you must, but I find the Psion overpowered as well. You can yell at me, and tell me I'm crazy, but it doesn't change an informed opinion. I am not looking to argue, hell I don't even feel like backing up my opinion to make it an argument, I simply think that what it's always going to boil down to is personal opinion and preference. -RW You have a point, except I can argue the same for the wizard, cleric, and druid, and back up my arguments. The problem is the players, not the system. Core magic is just as "broken/overpowered", if not more so, than psionics. The problem is people accept magic as being broken, but psionics gets treated like it's some fundamentally new thing, there being loopholes, items for abuse, or unforeseen side effects, when in fact, it's been a problem as long as there have been systems. I've played a psionic character in enough campaigns that if I tell any of my DMs I want to play one, they have no concerns, because, plain and simple, I'm not going to try to break the game. I may overcome challenges they don't expect me to, but I've done that with core classes, too, so psionics is hardly unusual in that regard.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 12:31 PM	You have a point, except I can argue the same for the wizard, cleric, and druid, and back up my arguments. As I can make the same argument for a Sorcerer, or a fighter. I can see where areas of trouble lie, and where areas of weakness are. We should still all feel welcome to share our opinions, without fear of verbal assault, even when it might be deserving. Note, that I will myself tear a person apart from time to time, but only in the face of blind ignorance, or obvious intent to anger others. ;) :) The problem is the players, not the system. I agree wholeheartedly. CO boards speak leagues for how many players are out there with intent to break ALL the systems. Core magic is just as "broken/overpowered", if not more so, than psionics. The problem is people accept magic as being broken, but psionics gets treated like it's some fundamentally new thing, there being loopholes, items for abuse, or unforeseen side effects, when in fact, it's been a problem as long as there have been systems. I Agree that magic can be "Broken" when intent is there. My qualms often come from the same defense being used against the Wizard or Sorcerer, when many different arguments often crop up for the Psion. I often find that when one person say's "I feel/ think that ______ Ability is broken" Most Psionic fans will leap to the defense of the rules as a whole, suddenly citing such silly examples as the "Shrunken rocks in a box" theory. I think it is fair to say by this time that nearly all can see that such a combination is overpowered. However, my qualms with the Psion often arise in that accidentally powers can be selected individually, that tend to unbalance the game mechanics. It is much harder IMO to accidentally pick a spell that might be broken for someone new to the game, than for a Psionic manifest. I've played a psionic character in enough campaigns that if I tell any of my DMs I want to play one, they have no concerns, because, plain and simple, I'm not going to try to break the game. I may overcome challenges they don't expect me to, but I've done that with core classes, too, so psionics is hardly unusual in that regard. And in this sense I agree still. I don't play DnD like is is meant to be a game for winning. I play for the story, and the flavour of the Character, even if that means making it weaker than others of its class. -RW p.s. Still not trying to engage in any arguments, just sparking friendly convo off to the side here. :) ;)
Favored Enemy 12-05-07, 12:58 PM	As I can make the same argument for a Sorcerer, or a fighter. That I would like to see! Note that he said he could back up his arguement.
Psionx 12-05-07, 01:21 PM	To the OP: Phantasmal Killer Sor/Wiz Lvl 4 You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage. If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack. Death Urge Psion Lvl 4 You plant a hidden death-urge impulse in the subject’s unconscious. On the subject’s next turn, it looks for the quickest method to end its life and attempts to do so. The subject takes no other action on its turn except attempting to harm itself. If armed, the subject attacks itself as a full-round action. The attack automatically succeeds and deals damage as a critical hit. If unarmed, the subject moves adjacent to the nearest enemy and provokes an attack of opportunity, offering its opponent an opening, which the opponent may or may not choose to take advantage of. If the subject is unarmed and no enemy is nearby, the subject simply does nothing at all. A subject close to an immediate and lethal hazard such as a cliff or a fire might hurl itself off the cliff or into the fire instead of striking itself with a weapon. To the trolls: In response to Kineticist VS Evoker I sent Lycan-my main man a PM as follows (not sure if he remembered it or still has it, but now I get a chance to bring it to light) Remember YIDM? I think the best way to have proven to him and to prove to people like him is to simply tally up their power points. Basically what I or you should have done was say: "Ok, your character isn't just a good psion, he's a cheap psion who gets all his powers at half price (rounded down)! Temporal Acceleration: 11 power points (minimum cost)" etc... then: Realizing I cast 4 (or however many spells) spells out of X amount while you just burned 3/4 of your power points: Priceless. There's somethings psionics can't do, for everything it can't and more there's magic. Good point. Psionic motivator? Does this explain why psionics does not compare to magic on the level of brokenness? I think you're confusing our avid love for psionics with attempts to justify brokenness which it does not have. The only broken thing I'd say exists in psionics is limitless PP which can also be done with magic as well I believe (and might even be available at lower levels). Both of which can easily be house ruled out. lycanthromancer already linked to it, but just in case Kineticist VS Evoker (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=10768110#post10768110\) http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=74250#
Bacris 12-05-07, 01:34 PM	As I can make the same argument for a Sorcerer, or a fighter. I can see where areas of trouble lie, and where areas of weakness are. We should still all feel welcome to share our opinions, without fear of verbal assault, even when it might be deserving. -RW p.s. Still not trying to engage in any arguments, just sparking friendly convo off to the side here. :) ;) I think the problem is so often, people just come in and say "psionics is broken" as if the core system is perfect, and then wonder why the psionics crowd is offended by this. Yes, psionics overall has areas that are not perfect. I don't think Death Urge is such an example, but there are items that need to be clarified, removed entirely, or altered so as to not introduce problems in a game. I will never say psionics is perfect and I will never say that item X being a problem is superceded by the system as a whole. The XPH and the 3.5 psionics ruleset as a whole are, in my experience, far more balanced than core magic. That is not to say it is perfect. Hell, I even point out in the Myth thread some of the problem areas. But to simply come in and say that psionics is overpowered and broken (which you didn't do, but since that's what sparked all this) and then turn a blind eye to just how many problems core magic has is not only insulting, it is hypocritical. That is the problem most of the psionics fans have. And hey, this is all friendly convo :) I haven't let messageboards get me worked up in years - especially messageboards about a game. It's a bloody game, nothing to get feral over!
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 01:53 PM	That I would like to see! Note that he said he could back up his arguement. What would you like to see? Why I am agreeing with him? -RW
Psionx 12-05-07, 01:59 PM	You know what we need? A battle between a lvl 20 psion and a lvl 20 druid/wizard/cleric whatever The rules would be: The psionic character isn't allowed to use any magic items The magic user isn't allowed to use any psionic items Standard wealth and XP Other rules like no leaving the arena... etc. We then need to refer to that in a sticky and post it at the top of the forum. Wouldn't stop the trolls but it'd be fun to look at.
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 02:09 PM	You know what we need? A battle between a lvl 20 psion and a lvl 20 druid/wizard/cleric whatever Probably not a good idea.. anything that the psion can do better will be used as proof that the psion is overpowered, anything that the other guy could do better will be deemed unimportant and likely dismissed because everyone knows that the other classes are overpowered anyway...
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 02:09 PM	And hey, this is all friendly convo :) I haven't let messageboards get me worked up in years - especially messageboards about a game. It's a bloody game, nothing to get feral over! I'm glad to see it remain as such. And don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to say that core doesn't have it's own issues. Generally I ignore them, and play the game realistically, avoiding things that seem to break it unnecessarily. That said, I'll admit I do at times bring up comments such as "I think this is broken", but often only in response to comments coming the opposite way first. I hate when someone tries to defend their position by pointing out the flaws of the opposition. Sometimes you just need to take things in stride, defend where you can, admit whats broken is broken where you can't, and THEN move along to inspect the opposition in a similar manner. I think such an approach is friendlier, when both sides accept that flaws are there, and then together they can reflect with fresh eyes on one another's opinions. Granted you're going to get the old member set in their ways, or the new member feeling they have made some glorious breakthrough, But treating one different from the other simply because of time known does get silly. I'm sure you or any other would not be as quick to jump down the throat of a fellow long time poster for questioning the rules, as I would not belittle a long time poster on the realms boards if they brought something to light, that perhaps had already been covered before. But, we might both be quick to judge someone newly arrived, even if perhaps some of what they say was right. It's a courtesy thing more than anything I suppose, one which on occasion people seem happy to overlook. -RW
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 02:15 PM	Probably not a good idea.. anything that the psion can do better will be used as proof that the psion is overpowered, anything that the other guy could do better will be deemed unimportant and likely dismissed because everyone knows that the other classes are overpowered anyway... This is the attitude I think hurts the Psionic position. Isn't it just as likely that what goes one way, will go both. As Psionic players, you'll most likely see what the wizard does and say "Ha, see it's more broken" and the Arcane players will say similarly in reverse. Your comment seems to be made solely from the side of the opposition, but if a few words are changed, it works for your side as well. ...anything that the Wizard can do better will be used as proof that the Wizard is overpowered, anything that the other guy could do better will be deemed unimportant and likely dismissed because everyone knows that the class is overpowered anyway... See. That could easily have been said by them to you. And in both instances, I'm sure it would be for the most part incorrect. -RW
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 02:21 PM	There's nothing subjective about it. The arguments that it's balanced are being made by the same crowd who were arguing 1st and 2nd editiion Psionics were balanced back in the day. Not strictly true. My only 2nd Ed character was a (non-psionic) Ranger, who got played for a grand total of about twenty minutes. It's my personal opinion that Psionics is less powerful than Arcane or Divine magic. I'll accept that Psionics is broken if the person making the claim admits that magic is more broken. Also, I have seen many proponents of the psionics system set forth in the XPH say that the 2nd Ed Psionics system was stupidly powerful. What would you like to see? Why I am agreeing with him? -RW Considering what he quoted, he most likely would like to see your argument that the Sorcerer and Fighter are overpowered. And honestly, if the Fighter is overpowered, nobody is overpowered.
Psionx 12-05-07, 02:23 PM	This is the attitude I think hurts the Psionic position. Isn't it just as likely that what goes one way, will go both. As Psionic players, you'll most likely see what the wizard does and say "Ha, see it's more broken" and the Arcane players will say similarly in reverse. Your comment seems to be made solely from the side of the opposition, but if a few words are changed, it works for your side as well. See. That could easily have been said by them to you. And in both instances, I'm sure it would be for the most part incorrect. -RW But you see, as long as the wizard doesn't pull out infinite spells, and bestow power is banned... the wizard will just hole up in a prismatic sphere (wall of stone inside and dimensional anchor as well I believe) while using a gate spell to bring out a celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan, who will gate in another celestial titan... who will gate in another celestial titan. After which...? Basically there are a few ways for the psion to get around the sphere: Burrowing Power, Reality Revision, Time Hop (but I don't know about this one), and timeless body. All of which have lower level counters.
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 02:28 PM	This is the attitude I think hurts the Psionic position. I have seen it go just the way I have said for psionics many, many times and I've seen the same thing in a number of other cases where a comparison is made when done on this board and others. It isnt like my arguement is solely for what would happen in a psionics debate, it is simply what has happened in them before and the same thing has happened many times in other places as well. It may be a sad reality but it is the reality of the boards. In order to agree on whether or not something is over/underpowered the people in the debate must agree on what is balanced so that something can be compared to it. If people think that X is too strong then the only reference point gained is that anything at X or higher is too strong. Many people feel that clerics and druids are too powerful/overpowered. As such, if they are compared to then anything used in the comparison which does better is likely to be viewed as too powerful/overpowered while anything that is under their ability has gained no real information. It becomes even trickier when dealing with sliding scales where being good at one thing and bad at something else can be balanced against another that is bad at the first and good at the second. This means that whether or not something is better or worse at one thing doesnt even tell us the whole story, so that many different tests must be made each of which will have the issue of people not agreeing on where the balance point is compounded by people not agreeing on how to compare the data compounded by people not agreeing on the overall combined levels. Since I have been a part of many such debates I feel confident in saying it is likely best not to try since the people who feel it is overpowered will not be convinced or will take selected parts, potentially out of context, to support their points and the reverse can easily be true as well. If people wish to go through the work to make it so that people will accept it that is one thing, but that is a huge undertaking... and at this point simply refering people to the plethora of information in the stickies that already exist likely gives a much better overall feel anyway if someone feels like digging through it.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 02:36 PM	My comment to the Sorcerer and Fighter were a tip of the hat in the direction of "Yes things can be and are broken outside of Psionics". That said I think personally that the Sorcerer in a one on one combat with the wizard will win nearly every time, so from my POV it is also broken. Also, a fighter with an Anti-magic object is nigh impossible to stop. But neither is the point. I really don't want to argue how and why things are/ can be broken. -RW
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 02:41 PM	Scion, setting a relative "Fairness" level is indeed nigh impossible. When comparing people will let personal preference dictate how they argue, and what they choose to see. Both the offense and defense in the arguments here do this, so pointing fingers in either direction isn't needed. Ultimately knowing this doesn't seem to change anything, and the arguments continue. Yet if everyone realises it, why keep letting it happen. Maybe if everyone said, ok they're all powerful, and thus all equal such things would blow over. Or, alternatively, and agree to disagree is called, and the matter is dropped. Instead, people opt to bash, belittle, and drag out a thread until often the OP gives up and goes away. This isn't proving anything, it just prolongs the animosity between personal preferences. -RW
Bacris 12-05-07, 02:41 PM	Duels are really bad ways to gauge power level, sorry to say.
Psionx 12-05-07, 02:50 PM	I guess, funny but true. Let's just say that magic user's in general have a power level thats over 9000?
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 02:50 PM	I am not sure why you basically just repeated what I said red wizard but at least I take it to mean you agree with what I said ;) Still though, the arguements will continue forever.. if a persons experience tells them that something is too powerful/too weak because of someone cheating/not knowing the rules/poor playing they are likely not going to listen to reason. Generally the people around here know quite a bit about the psionics system. Coming in and saying it is overpowered when compared to the magic system simply shows that they person is either focusing on a very specific case and ignoring everything else or has been exposed in a negative fashion somehow or simply doesnt know what they are talking about.
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 02:52 PM	I guess, funny but true. Let's just say that magic user's in general have a power level thats over 9000? How about, 'everything in the game can be cranked all the way up to 11 if you try hard enough'?
Nephlite 12-05-07, 02:55 PM	Red Wizard that is the point. Magic is overpowerd but overlooked bbecaue it is Core. So Psionics is treated differently because it came second in 3.5 (thoughit was in every edition: 1st was okay, second broken and 3.0 over and underpowered at same time). Isn't it just as likely that what goes one way, will go both. As Psionic players, you'll most likely see what the wizard does and say "Ha, see it's more broken" and the Arcane players will say similarly in reverse. But as Arcane has more broken magic: + more supplements; we would have to limit to Core versus XPH. Or Complete Arcane versus XPH (+ not Complete because of nerfs)
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 02:56 PM	That works. And I didn't realize I was repeating. Started typing half thinking, and I suppose it wound up paraphrased. ;) Ah well.:P -RW
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 03:00 PM	Red Wizard that is the point. Magic is overpowerd but overlooked bbecaue it is Core. So Psionics is treated differently because it came second in 3.5 (thoughit was in every edition: 1st was okay, second broken and 3.0 over and underpowered at same time). But as Arcane has more broken magic: + more supplements; we would have to limit to Core versus XPH. Or Complete Arcane versus XPH (+ not Complete because of nerfs) I don't think it's overlooked though. I am not saying Magic is underpowered, or even entirely balanced. I just don't think Psionics should be babied simply because some feel it recieves unfair treatment. -RW
Bukowski 12-05-07, 03:12 PM	I will never say psionics is perfect and I will never say that item X being a problem is superceded by the system as a whole. The XPH and the 3.5 psionics ruleset as a whole are, in my experience, far more balanced than core magic. Quoted for emphasis. Any ruleset is breakable, simply by the nature of being a constructed framework of rules... anyone with intellect, ambition, and/or spare time can take a set of rules and optimize the heck out of them. Not only can you break arcane/divine casting in more ways than the XPH psionics, you can do so on a significantly larger scale. From what I've seen, newer players have an easier time optimizing characters with the psionic rules (which may lead to a more frequent appearance of effective manifesters than spellcasters among casual players) but that is a side-effect of the PSP system being more intuitive and easier to learn than the Vancian dinosaur. I don't want to derail this thread any more than necessary, but I needed to speak my peace after Breetai's offensive trolling. Spouting out a derogatory blanket statement about the brokenness of psionics followed by a lumping of anyone who likes the system into a cluster of diehard 1st/2nd ed psionics fanboys is extremely insulting. I for one couldn't stomach psionics in DnD until 3rd edition. As for the OP, death urge is far from overpowered for reasons already mentioned by others. Anyone immune or resistant to enchantments/compulsions/mind-affecting effects is going to shrug off the power, and that's a large percentage of opponents. Even if they fail their save, at most they're going to critically hit themselves and lose an action... this is a far cry from instadeath or even 1 round of helplessness. If armed, the subject attacks itself as a full-round action. The attack automatically succeeds and deals damage as a critical hit. Emphasis mine. RAW, this does not say you take a full attack action, which is a particular type of full-round action. It says you attack yourself as a full-round action. It then goes on to speak of the attack in non-plural (i.e., a single attack) terms. You can make an argument for the opposite, but this is a valid enough point for a DM to operate death urge this way without calling it a house rule. All in all, I could easily list multiple powers and spells of 4th level or lower that are numerically superior to death urge if the mechanical game effect is the only concern. Making someone hit themselves with this power is much cooler than it is overly effective/game breaking.
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 03:38 PM	My comment to the Sorcerer and Fighter were a tip of the hat in the direction of "Yes things can be and are broken outside of Psionics". You can nod all you like. You claimed (indirectly) that you could back up your statement. Thus far, you have failed to do so. That said I think personally that the Sorcerer in a one on one combat with the wizard will win nearly every time, so from my POV it is also broken. But can you prove it? Because telling us your opinion won't get anything more than a smile and a nod without some evidence. Also, a fighter with an Anti-magic object is nigh impossible to stop. How about a Conjurer with Fly and Wind Wall? What's the Fighter going to do about that? The Conjurer can just throw Orb spells at him. (And a Psion could do something similar with Psionic Fly, Energy Wall (Sonic), and Crystal Shard.) And as long as I'm here, what book was the Antimagic Torc in? I see it mentioned a lot by people claiming that Fighters are powerful.
Psionx 12-05-07, 03:46 PM	You can nod all you like. You claimed (indirectly) that you could back up your statement. Thus far, you have failed to do so. But can you prove it? Because telling us your opinion won't get anything more than a smile and a nod without some evidence. How about a Conjurer with Fly and Wind Wall? What's the Fighter going to do about that? The Conjurer can just throw Orb spells at him. (And a Psion could do something similar with Psionic Fly, Energy Wall (Sonic), and Crystal Shard.) And as long as I'm here, what book was the Antimagic Torc in? I see it mentioned a lot by people claiming that Fighters are powerful. I think we should be nice to him, but at the same time, my answer to almost any fighter is a lotta rocks+shrink item+telekinesis
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 03:50 PM	I think we should be nice to him, but at the same time, my answer to almost any fighter is a lotta rocks+shrink item+telekinesisYes, we should be nice to him; after all, he's been very diplomatic, and hasn't spouted a bunch of trash at us (unlike most, unfortunately). *Pats Red_Wizard.* Good boy. :D
PhaedrusXY 12-05-07, 04:11 PM	And as long as I'm here, what book was the Antimagic Torc in? I see it mentioned a lot by people claiming that Fighters are powerful.Underdark, I think.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 04:29 PM	You can nod all you like. You claimed (indirectly) that you could back up your statement. Thus far, you have failed to do so. How can I fail at something I wasn't trying to do? Why would I back up an argument I was not trying to make? I said IMO, not "I think you should agree". But can you prove it? Because telling us your opinion won't get anything more than a smile and a nod without some evidence. Funnily enough I have had this debate with friends recently. However, again It isn't my intention to here. I was simply agreeing that not only the Psion in my opinion was/ is overpowered. *Shrugs* How about a Conjurer with Fly and Wind Wall? What's the Fighter going to do about that? The Conjurer can just throw Orb spells at him. (And a Psion could do something similar with Psionic Fly, Energy Wall (Sonic), and Crystal Shard.) And if the fighter wins initiative? Gets the jump on the caster? Attacks the caster inside? As I recall I didn't say nothing could stop him. Nor did I say there weren't things he was still vulnerable to. And as long as I'm here, what book was the Antimagic Torc in? I see it mentioned a lot by people claiming that Fighters are powerful. Unfortunately I don't recall off the top of my head, sorry. Though for a high enough level fighter, it should be a fairly "simple" thing to have made for him. And by Simple, I don't mean he puts a quarter into a candy machine, and outcomes and antimagic belt. ;)
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 04:32 PM	I think we should be nice to him, but at the same time, my answer to almost any fighter is a lotta rocks+shrink item+telekinesis Yes, we should be nice to him; after all, he's been very diplomatic, and hasn't spouted a bunch of trash at us (unlike most, unfortunately). *Pats Red_Wizard.* Good boy. :D Hurrah, acceptance. :P Though I'll admit I'm not enamored of the head patting. Ah well, start small and work to the top, then we'll see who pats who's head. *Maniacal laughter* Ahem -RW
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 04:42 PM	And if the fighter wins initiative? Gets the jump on the caster? Attacks the caster inside?With the right spell selection this is LITERALLY impossible. See the Spell Compendium for details. With psions, not so much.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 04:48 PM	With the right spell selection this is LITERALLY impossible. See the Spell Compendium for details. With psions, not so much. Again though, right spell selection would be key. Ultimately, I think it will simply lead in circles, as I don't want to prove or disprove anyone here in regards to under/ over powered. Maybe sometime I'll have the urge to make a few builds to fight one another, but at the moment me and time don't get along very well, so posting quick and short is what I'm left with. ;) -RW
Lycanthromancer 12-05-07, 04:51 PM	Again though, right spell selection would be key. Ultimately, I think it will simply lead in circles, as I don't want to prove or disprove anyone here in regards to under/ over powered. Maybe sometime I'll have the urge to make a few builds to fight one another, but at the moment me and time don't get along very well, so posting quick and short is what I'm left with. ;) -RWThe kicker though is that a wizard, especially, can have access to any and all effects at the same time. Judicious spell selection + scrolls + wands = serious uberosity. Anyway, that's pretty well that.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 04:58 PM	As there are many magic items that a wizard would garner no benifit from, that another might find stockpile for absurdity. ;) It's all in how the character is built as said before. If someone wants to make something broken, then they will find a way to. :) -RW
Scion of Coldshard 12-05-07, 05:03 PM	With the right spell selection this is LITERALLY impossible. See the Spell Compendium for details. With psions, not so much. I just did a look through of the spell compendium searching for the word 'initiative'.. no luck though, do you know the name of the spells in question?
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 05:04 PM	How can I fail at something I wasn't trying to do? Technically, you fail to do most things you don't try to do. But I suppose it would have been more accurate to say that you have declined to do so. Why would I back up an argument I was not trying to make? You claimed that you could back up the argument, and then someone said he would like to see that. If you didn't want to support your argument, I'm not sure what the point was in claiming that you could. I said IMO, not "I think you should agree". Then I suppose it's just as well that I don't. Funnily enough I have had this debate with friends recently. Which... dosn't really tell us anything. However, again It isn't my intention to here. I was simply agreeing that not only the Psion in my opinion was/ is overpowered. *Shrugs* And as evidence, you cited that the Fighter-- probably one of the five weakest PC classes in the game-- was overpowered. So, if everyone is overpowered, is anyone really overpowered? And if the fighter wins initiative? Gets the jump on the caster? Attacks the caster inside? Wizards still have options. (Perhaps a particular Wizard won't, but a particular Fighter won't necessarily have an Antimagic Torc.) I believe there's a level 8 spell Invoke Magic that allows a character to cast a spell from inside an Antimagic Field. (An option that Psions don't have, I might add.) Then there's also the facts that Wizards have better options for stealth, detecting opponents, and maximizing initiative than Fighters do. As I recall I didn't say nothing could stop him. Nor did I say there weren't things he was still vulnerable to. In that case, I mistook your intentions. I thought you were attempting to start a war of escalation, which happens extremely frequently in this sort of conversation.
PhaedrusXY 12-05-07, 05:14 PM	I just did a look through of the spell compendium searching for the word 'initiative'.. no luck though, do you know the name of the spells in question?I'm not sure, but I'd guess he's talking about (Greater) Celerity. Combine it with a way to never be flat-footed (shapechange into a minotaur, one of the Dragonmarks, etc), and you can literally take an action whenever you want to. And with a good wizard build, one is all you need to assure victory.
archangel_arcanis_07 12-05-07, 05:38 PM	CD i understand your frustration but would you try to at least be a bit more diplomatic in your rebutles as you seem to be coming off in a mean spirited manner. I disagree with Red Wizard but at least he has been very kind and courteous in his disagreement, unlike most people who wind up over here to bash psionics because it isn't magic in that fact makes it inherently broken to them. Here is where stand on all of this: Death Urge- good but not great. Yes you can make your opponent potentially attack himself but this won't happen most of the time and it really isn't even lethal to your opponent unless it is a glass cannon, which most monsters aren't so that just leaves enemy NPCs which most DMs are too lazy to make up. The reason i say it won't happen most of the time is DCs just don't get high enough as you level, unless you have tons of ability increasing items on you most of the time a monster with close to your lvl in cr will laugh at most saves or have such a high pr/sr that you can barely make that dc if you can at all. Psionic vs Magic- Magic is by large more powerful to anyone who takes the time to look though the books. In the PHB there are about 2.5 times the number of spells as there are powers in the XPH in every supplement put out there are normally another at least 20 but normally 50-100 spells added while maybe 5-20 powers if any are included. Though sheer volume spellcasters have the advantage of always having the spell that can do the job and since most have access to their entire list either automatically, divine, or for purchase, wizard, it really comes down to if the spellcaster can see whats coming for the next 24 hrs or less depending on the spell caster. Oh by the way all spellcasters have some way of seeing what they will be facing on that sort of time frame. This is on top of almost every PrC is written for spellcasters, even the warrior ones that allow the spellcasters to negate their only weaknesses that they might have, though some don't need PrC's to be crazy. Now with that all said if you have a mature group of players and a decent DM none of this should be an issue. The players won't be playing pun-pun, cheater of mystra, and a clone bomber; and the DM will be throwing varied enemies at the party where all should have a decent chance to have their 15 minutes of fame in the game. While it shouldn't have to be it is clearly stated in the PHB, maybe the DMG, that the game is about having fun there is no other way to win. If i kill all of your monsters because i'm playing something that is unstoppable i'm going to get bored really quick and if i can't even get my first round of action because the DM decided to see how a 1st lvl party would deal with 3 titans then no one wins. For those who have taken the time to read my musings/rant thank you. for the others well you didn't read the rest of the post so i figure you won't read this either.:D
Jaid 12-05-07, 05:39 PM	[snip]I often find that when one person say's "I feel/ think that ______ Ability is broken" Most Psionic fans will leap to the defense of the rules as a whole, suddenly citing such silly examples as the "Shrunken rocks in a box" theory. I think it is fair to say by this time that nearly all can see that such a combination is overpowered. However, my qualms with the Psion often arise in that accidentally powers can be selected individually, that tend to unbalance the game mechanics. It is much harder IMO to accidentally pick a spell that might be broken for someone new to the game, than for a Psionic manifest. [snip] have you looked at polymorph? how about gate? how about any of the holy word type spells with a CL boost? how about all of the save-or-you're-screwed spells? how about the ones that don't even allow you to make a save and you're still screwed? don't get me wrong, there's broken stuff in psionics, but a claim like that i just cannot agree with. most of the stuff in psionics that's going to ruin a game either needs to be deliberately chosen to combo in an unbalanced way (affinity field + any number of things, for example), or else it ruins the game by trying to brain lock anyone who tries to figure out how the heck it works (i'm looking at you, metaconcert), or else it copies directly a non-psionic rule (metamorphosis being one of those). while there is some stuff that is probably a little bit strong on it's own, and maybe even a few things that are just horribly broken, i have a hard time accepting that there are more individually made choices in psionics that will be overpowered when compared to what you can do with arcane or divine magic...
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 05:43 PM	CD i understand your frustration but would you try to at least be a bit more diplomatic in your rebutles as you seem to be coming off in a mean spirited manner. I didn't realize I was coming off as mean-spirited.
archangel_arcanis_07 12-05-07, 05:54 PM	I didn't realize I was coming off as mean-spirited. It seemed that way to me at least, and i'm sure it isn't what you had intended, since i lurk here all the time and have never seen you as a mean spirited person. I think it is just that so many psionics fans are tired of people dropping in to kick our dog for no reason that we get a bit touchy about it.
Red_Wizard 12-05-07, 06:14 PM	I didn't realize I was coming off as mean-spirited. It seemed that way to me at least, and i'm sure it isn't what you had intended, since i lurk here all the time and have never seen you as a mean spirited person. I think it is just that so many psionics fans are tired of people dropping in to kick our dog for no reason that we get a bit touchy about it. I took it in stride, as I am well aware how I may appear coming recently to the DnD boards. Being a long time member of the Realms forums, both with and before this name, I know what it's like to have people come in and start bashing something you enjoy. For me it's the Realms in general that suffer, even amongst some who have been around longer, and I know it irks me to see close minded comments. One of the main reasons I continue to avoid the confrontation I felt CD was trying to spark, is -- aside from time constraints -- due to my dislike of personal opinion jading responses. I have come to view the boards as a place to acquire help on a topic, or discuss aspects of game and lore that could use tweaking. Often this breaks down into "This sucks because I hate it" or "This is broken because I don't play it" too which I want no part. I don't hope to change opinions on the Psion, nor would I want to. I just think that the boards as a whole should step back for a moment, take a breath, and come back with a clear head. :) -RW
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 06:41 PM	That's a very healthy attitude, and I wish more people had it. Now that I realize where you're coming from, I'm happy to have you around. In case you were wondering, I thought you were swooping in trying to pick a fight, and when that happens, I tend to revert to an impersonal, logic-driven, and apparently brusque tone specifically to avoid being-- or appearing-- angry. In other words, I wasn't trying to start a fight. I thought it had already started and had put on my battle face.
Lokiyn 12-05-07, 06:51 PM	huh..... well i guess i win the Pandora award for today [Self note draw/find a picture of a panda opening a box of some sort], whoops. Should have thought that one through before i left the house. Anyway one of the problems here is that is, in many ways similar to someone going, "I think books are dumb" "err what?" "yeah all this crap about rabbits and candy and stuff" "dude thats like three books.... in the children's section" "Yeah but look at these books if these are like that then all books must be like that, i'm gonna go watch tv for something intelligent" "...." The biggest problem with is that most of the time broken gets tossed around with no support, or if supported it is done so with the equivalent of using a splinter to prove the existents of treants. I would be willing to lay money that if someone took the time to have the magic + CO board go through the XPH and list the Broken (game breaking) material from the XPH, then have the Psionics+Co boards go through the PHB and List all the broken material (single spells and combo's as with the psionics) even exluding the Items from the DMG the Base Arcane/Divine systems would list out anywhere from 2 to 5 times as many items of ill repute. Off the top of my head i can think of half a dozen or more items that can shatter a game from core Gate Simulacrum Illusory Script Shrink Item Mnemonic Enhancer Planar Binding Magic Jar Disjunction Polymorph Polymorph any object Shapechange and perhaps some more i can't think of off the top of my head thats just single spells, most of these don't even seem powerful until you poke around a pry loose their full potential. For example for a druid the absolute single most powerful core combination (outside of Autumn) is Control Weather + Control Winds producing Tornado+ Force winds, which pretty much destroys everything, a single druid could simply delete a section of terrain with a diameter of 1/5th of a mile with a 5th level spell. Psionics just can't compare. Which isn't to say that psionics doesn't have some incredible powerful stuff, just much of it isn't game breaking. Off the top of my head i can list Metaconcert Metamorphosis Metamorphic Transfer Psychic Reformation Energy Missle Affinity field Whatever i'm forgetting Most of these as with the above magic list are not game breakers unless in the hands of a clever player the problem is that off the top of my head i can list considerably more items used to break a game from the phb than i can from the xph and i spend free time specifically looking for these things and putting them in notes for games (as both a player and a dm). In addition most psionic overpowered items are combinations of powers rather than single powers, for example metaconcert isn't overpowered untill you combine it with powers that use exp to ramp up the end power result with little cost individually (for example you can reality revision epic items into existence starting around level 11ish or so if you work with others.) If i expanded the list to include situationally overpowered things psionics still contains less than magic Part of this is that psionics as a whole has less material than magic, even in a straight Phb vs Xph comparison, the other part of this is that many things that magic has that makes it overpowered was not converted into a psionic power. To be fair there are items on each list that i personally don't view as overpowered because i know how to deal with them even without changing the rules but for completeness i tossed in the most contentious spells/feats that i could think of off the top of my head that continuously crop up in these arguments. All that being said, its hardly fair in the terms of a rational conversation to make such a broad claim with no support whatsoever, claiming say the belief that death urge is overpowered is one thing, thats specific enough to at least reasonably debate, however claiming an entire system to be broken without anything other than the claim itself is fairly weak from a rational standpoint. its like claiming "i hate the french culture" "why?" "because i do." "No other reason?" "No" "Thats silly"
hovnarr 12-05-07, 07:07 PM	Bah, what does broken even mean? That the DM can't continue the game? That the player who plays a halfling Bard3/Barbarian4 doesn't feel as powerful as the human wizard 7? Arcane, divine and psionic are all sufficiently rich and complete systems to completely dominate any game, compared to 95% of straight physical tactics that do not use these effects. What exactly is the problem with that? Why is it even an issue if the arcane shlong is half an inch shorter or longer than the psionic one? They are both humongous compared to the warrior's tools... And that's only a problem if you have a stupid DM or stupid players. And even in that case, special effects STILL aren't the problem. The problem is - you guessed it - stupidity.
sijigs 12-05-07, 08:44 PM	I didn't realize I was coming off as mean-spirited. I think it's the horns... no? How about the jagged teeth?
CrimsonDeath 12-05-07, 08:52 PM	I think it's the horns... no? How about the jagged teeth? Give me a break! It's not like my name is "CrimsonLife"...
sijigs 12-05-07, 09:13 PM	Give me a break! It's not like my name is "CrimsonLife"... Well.. it *IS* rather intimidating!!! Ever consider something more PC... say.. CrimsonJelly or CrimsonPancakes?
highinquisitorlord 12-05-07, 09:16 PM	Well after reading everyone's posts I have come to the decision that I am going to let the power stand as is in my game. I think I would do more damage to the game (as the DM) to modify or take the power away from my player than to let it stand. Honestly the more I look at it, I think it is up to me as a DM to come up with other situations for my players that feel "lesser" when compared to the psion, to shine. In other words, I need to create some encounters where they have the opportunity to excel. Thank you everyone for your time. HIL
Zathress 12-08-07, 01:46 PM	I once used death urge while the creature was standing next to a cliff. "Wendy I can fly!" Down he went with a splat 20d6 damage.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 12-08-07, 03:45 PM	http://a817.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/79/l_d749a5e51d57d5dd35976ed8d64a7c70.jpg Pure win.