Deep Crystal Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Deep Crystal Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oregwath
08-20-07, 12:21 AM Okay, this is probably answered elsewhere and I missed it, but can weapons that only deal subdual damage be made of deep crystal? For that matter, if you enchant them and give them the psychokentic ability, is the extra damage still nonlethal?

Looking for weapons for a lurk who would rather knock the people out then kill them...

Anyway, thank you in advance.
Fireclave
08-20-07, 12:49 AM To answer your first question, Crystal and Deep Crystal can be used in place of metal when crafting weapon and armor. So if the item in question is normally made of metal, reguardless of whether it normally deal nonlethal damage or not, it can be made of deep crystal.

As for your second question, typically anytime you deal nonlethal damage, all of the damage is nonlethal. For example, if Fighty McFighter of 14'Strengthenstien decides to take the -4 penalty to hit to deal nonlethal damage with his +1 Flaming Greatsword, all 3d6+3 damage is nonlethal.

However, some DMs rule that extra damage from magical enhancements still deal lethal damage, so it's best ask your DM ahead of time.

For a Lurk who would rather KO than Kill, any weapon with the Merciful property is a great choice. Not only do you get to use your weapon of choice, but even if your DM rules that extra damage from magic/psionic properties still deal lethal damage, the Merciful property explicitly states that all damage done by your weapon is nonlethal, so there's no argument there.
Oregwath
08-20-07, 01:06 AM Sweet, thank you very much. Our current group is very good at killing things, however that means there is no one left alive to ask about WHY they are attacking us..... so I decided we needed someone who is interested in not snuffing out the light.
CrimsonDeath
08-20-07, 03:01 AM As for your second question, typically anytime you deal nonlethal damage, all of the damage is nonlethal. For example, if Fighty McFighter of 14'Strengthenstien decides to take the -4 penalty to hit to deal nonlethal damage with his +1 Flaming Greatsword, all 3d6+3 damage is nonlethal.
I'm pretty sure the 1d6 fire damage is still lethal. But you can turn that off.

Unfortunately, I can't think of any weapons that are made of metal but deal nonlethal damage. The sap and whip are made of leather, and the striking surface of a goad is made of stone.
Fireclave
08-20-07, 03:20 PM I'm pretty sure the 1d6 fire damage is still lethal.
Would you happen to have a rules quote to confirm this?
Deekin
08-20-07, 05:04 PM There is also a first level lurk power the breifly gives your weapon the Mercyfull property.
TheKeyofE
08-20-07, 05:28 PM The 1d6 is fire damage. Fire is always lethal. Only physical damage (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) can be made non-lethal by taking a -4 to hit. I don't have a rules quote for you because there is none. It's just common sense.

Making the 1d6 from Flaming property non-lethal would be like making a 10d6 fireball non-lethal. Only spells or powers that specifically state they can do non-lethal (the first that comes to mind is Concussion Blast) can do so.

There's also a 1st level Lurk power, Deaden Blow, that makes all your attacks deal non-lethal for rounds/level.
Deekin
08-20-07, 06:15 PM Subduel Subsitution Metamagic feat.

10d6 Subduel fire Damage.
Fireclave
08-20-07, 06:41 PM The 1d6 is fire damage. Fire is always lethal. Only physical damage (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) can be made non-lethal by taking a -4 to hit. I don't have a rules quote for you because there is none. It's just common sense.
The problem with using a common sense argument is that traditional common sense doesn't hold up very well in D&D. Far too many things in D&D ignore common sense for flavor reasons or mechanic simplicity. Common sense tells us that a 10d6 fireball that can melt lead and ignite combustibles should be able ignite the clothes, melt the armor off, and deal damage to a PC's equipment. Common sense also tells us that dragons are too heavy support their own weight, let alone fly, that acid isn't an energy, that alignment can be argued objectively or subjectively, that hit points simply don't work, that spells like lightning bolt should work differently underwater, etcetera and so on.

And while I can accept the argument that common sense tells us that additional flaming damage would probably deal lethal damage even when you attempt to do otherwise, I'm open minded enough to also accept the argument that it's possible to using a flaming weapon in such a way as to not deal lethal damage and that dealing nonlethal damage with the flaming aspect of your weapon is no harder than dealing nonlethal damage with the straight enhancement bonus.

But all this is besides the fact that the game mechanics say otherwise. Unless there's a rule I'm over looking, by the RAW, if your weapon deals non-lethal damage, all the damage it deals non-lethal damage. Of course, it is a reasonable houserule to say otherwise.

Making the 1d6 from Flaming property non-lethal would be like making a 10d6 fireball non-lethal. Only spells or powers that specifically state they can do non-lethal (the first that comes to mind is Concussion Blast) can do so.

Actually, I think there are rules in the Complete Arcane for arcane duels that allow you to deal nonlethal damage with spells. I don't have the CA, so I can't say for sure.
DrowBattlemind
08-21-07, 04:15 PM Take a deep crystal mace (light, heavy or war, it doesn't matter), give it the following abilities: Shocking burst, Psychokinetic Burst, and Merciful.

The deep-crystal (when charged with 2 pp)adds 2d6 to the mace's damage (assuming medium-sized, 1D6 for a light mace, 1D8 for heavy, or 1D12 for a Warmace, Comp. Warrior), +1D6/1D10 electrical damage from the shocking burst effect, 1D4/1D6 for the psychokinetic burst, and the Merciful quality renders ALL OF THAT DAMAGE AS NON-LETHAL.

You now have the ultimate magical/psionic taser.

Light mace: 4D6 +1d4 +str bonus nonlethal damage,, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal.
Heavy Mace: 1D8 +3D6 +1D4 +str bonus damage, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal.
War Mace: 1D12 +3D6 +str bonus damage, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal.
and that's not taking into account the normal crit (x2) base damage for each type of mace used. Sweet, isn't it?
Tedronai
08-21-07, 05:02 PM From the SRD:
'Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal. Because deep crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it.'

Though Deep crystal is considered to be metal for the purposes of armour, you can still make traditionally non-metal weapons out of it. It would even be possible to fashion a whip - a weapon traditionally made entirely of leather - with Deep Crystal.
I would conceive of these weapons as containing shards of the material at key points, enough to serve their purpose, but not so much as to interfere with the functioning of the weapon itself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oregwath 08-20-07, 12:21 AM	Okay, this is probably answered elsewhere and I missed it, but can weapons that only deal subdual damage be made of deep crystal? For that matter, if you enchant them and give them the psychokentic ability, is the extra damage still nonlethal? Looking for weapons for a lurk who would rather knock the people out then kill them... Anyway, thank you in advance.
Fireclave 08-20-07, 12:49 AM	To answer your first question, Crystal and Deep Crystal can be used in place of metal when crafting weapon and armor. So if the item in question is normally made of metal, reguardless of whether it normally deal nonlethal damage or not, it can be made of deep crystal. As for your second question, typically anytime you deal nonlethal damage, all of the damage is nonlethal. For example, if Fighty McFighter of 14'Strengthenstien decides to take the -4 penalty to hit to deal nonlethal damage with his +1 Flaming Greatsword, all 3d6+3 damage is nonlethal. However, some DMs rule that extra damage from magical enhancements still deal lethal damage, so it's best ask your DM ahead of time. For a Lurk who would rather KO than Kill, any weapon with the Merciful property is a great choice. Not only do you get to use your weapon of choice, but even if your DM rules that extra damage from magic/psionic properties still deal lethal damage, the Merciful property explicitly states that all damage done by your weapon is nonlethal, so there's no argument there.
Oregwath 08-20-07, 01:06 AM	Sweet, thank you very much. Our current group is very good at killing things, however that means there is no one left alive to ask about WHY they are attacking us..... so I decided we needed someone who is interested in not snuffing out the light.
CrimsonDeath 08-20-07, 03:01 AM	As for your second question, typically anytime you deal nonlethal damage, all of the damage is nonlethal. For example, if Fighty McFighter of 14'Strengthenstien decides to take the -4 penalty to hit to deal nonlethal damage with his +1 Flaming Greatsword, all 3d6+3 damage is nonlethal. I'm pretty sure the 1d6 fire damage is still lethal. But you can turn that off. Unfortunately, I can't think of any weapons that are made of metal but deal nonlethal damage. The sap and whip are made of leather, and the striking surface of a goad is made of stone.
Fireclave 08-20-07, 03:20 PM	I'm pretty sure the 1d6 fire damage is still lethal. Would you happen to have a rules quote to confirm this?
Deekin 08-20-07, 05:04 PM	There is also a first level lurk power the breifly gives your weapon the Mercyfull property.
TheKeyofE 08-20-07, 05:28 PM	The 1d6 is fire damage. Fire is always lethal. Only physical damage (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) can be made non-lethal by taking a -4 to hit. I don't have a rules quote for you because there is none. It's just common sense. Making the 1d6 from Flaming property non-lethal would be like making a 10d6 fireball non-lethal. Only spells or powers that specifically state they can do non-lethal (the first that comes to mind is Concussion Blast) can do so. There's also a 1st level Lurk power, Deaden Blow, that makes all your attacks deal non-lethal for rounds/level.
Deekin 08-20-07, 06:15 PM	Subduel Subsitution Metamagic feat. 10d6 Subduel fire Damage.
Fireclave 08-20-07, 06:41 PM	The 1d6 is fire damage. Fire is always lethal. Only physical damage (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) can be made non-lethal by taking a -4 to hit. I don't have a rules quote for you because there is none. It's just common sense. The problem with using a common sense argument is that traditional common sense doesn't hold up very well in D&D. Far too many things in D&D ignore common sense for flavor reasons or mechanic simplicity. Common sense tells us that a 10d6 fireball that can melt lead and ignite combustibles should be able ignite the clothes, melt the armor off, and deal damage to a PC's equipment. Common sense also tells us that dragons are too heavy support their own weight, let alone fly, that acid isn't an energy, that alignment can be argued objectively or subjectively, that hit points simply don't work, that spells like lightning bolt should work differently underwater, etcetera and so on. And while I can accept the argument that common sense tells us that additional flaming damage would probably deal lethal damage even when you attempt to do otherwise, I'm open minded enough to also accept the argument that it's possible to using a flaming weapon in such a way as to not deal lethal damage and that dealing nonlethal damage with the flaming aspect of your weapon is no harder than dealing nonlethal damage with the straight enhancement bonus. But all this is besides the fact that the game mechanics say otherwise. Unless there's a rule I'm over looking, by the RAW, if your weapon deals non-lethal damage, all the damage it deals non-lethal damage. Of course, it is a reasonable houserule to say otherwise. Making the 1d6 from Flaming property non-lethal would be like making a 10d6 fireball non-lethal. Only spells or powers that specifically state they can do non-lethal (the first that comes to mind is Concussion Blast) can do so. Actually, I think there are rules in the Complete Arcane for arcane duels that allow you to deal nonlethal damage with spells. I don't have the CA, so I can't say for sure.
DrowBattlemind 08-21-07, 04:15 PM	Take a deep crystal mace (light, heavy or war, it doesn't matter), give it the following abilities: Shocking burst, Psychokinetic Burst, and Merciful. The deep-crystal (when charged with 2 pp)adds 2d6 to the mace's damage (assuming medium-sized, 1D6 for a light mace, 1D8 for heavy, or 1D12 for a Warmace, Comp. Warrior), +1D6/1D10 electrical damage from the shocking burst effect, 1D4/1D6 for the psychokinetic burst, and the Merciful quality renders ALL OF THAT DAMAGE AS NON-LETHAL. You now have the ultimate magical/psionic taser. Light mace: 4D6 +1d4 +str bonus nonlethal damage,, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal. Heavy Mace: 1D8 +3D6 +1D4 +str bonus damage, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal. War Mace: 1D12 +3D6 +str bonus damage, +1D10 & 1D6 on a critical hit, all non-lethal. and that's not taking into account the normal crit (x2) base damage for each type of mace used. Sweet, isn't it?
Tedronai 08-21-07, 05:02 PM	From the SRD: 'Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal. Because deep crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it.' Though Deep crystal is considered to be metal for the purposes of armour, you can still make traditionally non-metal weapons out of it. It would even be possible to fashion a whip - a weapon traditionally made entirely of leather - with Deep Crystal. I would conceive of these weapons as containing shards of the material at key points, enough to serve their purpose, but not so much as to interfere with the functioning of the weapon itself.