Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Madsamurai 07-18-07, 12:34 AM	Hi everyone, Im about to play our group's first ever psion and while picking powers I noticed Demoralize http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#demoralize I'll cut to the chase. If I cast demorilize twice and the same creature fails its save, is it still just shaken or does it become frightened and run away? If the spell's effects stack like this it seems that it could be very powerful at low levels, considering that it only costs 1 power point.
runestar 07-18-07, 12:37 AM	Fear effects stack. So 2 shakens become frightened. And so on and so forth.:)
Madsamurai 07-18-07, 12:39 AM	Thanks for the quick reply. But, I thought that bonuses (and penalties) from the same source do not stack but overide, so wouldent you need a different spell or ability to make the target shaken before he flees?
BlaineTog 07-18-07, 01:11 AM	Thanks for the quick reply. But, I thought that bonuses (and penalties) from the same source do not stack but overide, so wouldent you need a different spell or ability to make the target shaken before he flees?Fear isn't a bonus or penalty. It's a state. Think of it like ability damage.
Madsamurai 07-18-07, 01:21 AM	Fear isn't a bonus or penalty. It's a state. Think of it like ability damage. Thanks.
runestar 07-18-07, 01:21 AM	There is the relevant quote from the PHB. Fear Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked. Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
unusualsuspect 07-18-07, 01:39 AM	Arguably, this SPECIFIC power wouldn't stack with itself, unless two separate psions were manifesting this effect... and even then, it might not fly. Find another method of creating a fear effect, of course, and you can stack effects... since the power doesn't specific that it doesn't stack with other fear effects (like another 1st level power, if memory serves), it would stack as normal.
Nom 07-18-07, 03:36 AM	It wouldn't stack with itself (where "itself" is any other demoralize power). It has a duration, and thus applies an effect. Same effect twice = same effect, even with scaling rules for fear and fatigue. Of course, if you can find another source of fear, you're golden. Intimidate, cause fear, fear will all work nicely.
Slagger the Chuul 07-18-07, 06:12 AM	Of course, if you can find another source of fear, you're golden. Intimidate, cause fear, fear will all work nicely. I agree.
ratarang 07-18-07, 07:16 AM	Specific rules trump general rules, that's why dodge bonuses stack. Which part of "A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened" is unclear? I can't find a rule for manifesting the exact same power to satisfy extreme rules-lawyers, but "Same Effect with Differing Results The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. " explains that manifesting the same power doesn't remove the first one. If your GM is being difficult and demanding mindless obedience to RAW, just manifest one of the powers at a different augmentation.
runestar 07-18-07, 07:46 AM	Just curious, if 2 dragons used their frightful presence on you, would both stack then? Or does one just overlap the other? To be frank, I am still not entirely convinced that multiple fear effects from the same source do not stack, but I realize that there appears to be quite a lot of evidence against my stance, so I am re-evaluating some of the earlier points.:)
The_Ditto 07-18-07, 08:34 AM	Umm, funny that this quote was used already .. but only part of it was highlighted .. Stacking Effects: Powers that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different powers, or one from a power and one from a spell. You use whichever bonus gives you the better result. Different Bonus Types: The bonuses or penalties from two different powers, or a power and a spell, stack if the effects are of different types. A bonus that isn’t named (just a “+2 bonus” rather than a “+2 insight bonus”) stacks with any bonus. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired). Same Effect with Differing Results: The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell power in the series lasts. One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, a power can render another power irrelevant. Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes psionic or magical effects that establish mental control render one another irrelevant. Mental controls that don’t remove the recipient’s ability to act usually do not interfere with one another, though one may modify another. If a creature is under the control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys. I've highlighted what I think are the relevant areas for this ... That being said ... I'm not entirely sure it helps clear the matter up ... :D It's probably another case of the rules not perfectly covering this situation ... For my opinion: because it's a first level power, I'd be tempted to avoid the stacking ... but again, that's just my opinion ... :tiphat: Seems a little strong for a 1st level power if you can generate ever increasing levels of fear with multiple manifestations ...
Mercurius 07-18-07, 10:07 AM	Personally, while Demoralize is handy, my 1st level Psion lived and died on Disable. I managed to get our party out of an encounter with four ogres while we were 2nd level, just by using disable on several of them and effectively rendering them inoperable for a while. Not sure why the DM didn't have the "disabled" ogres retreat, but it was a very handy ability for removing low Will opponents from an encounter for a while. Demoralize can be handy, though. A wilder in my last campaign managed to hit a Vrock with it and screw up its attacks pretty well. Helped the party a bit.
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 03:55 PM	Personally, while Demoralize is handy, my 1st level Psion lived and died on Disable. I managed to get our party out of an encounter with four ogres while we were 2nd level, just by using disable on several of them and effectively rendering them inoperable for a while. Not sure why the DM didn't have the "disabled" ogres retreat, but it was a very handy ability for removing low Will opponents from an encounter for a while. That wouldn't work in one of the campaigns I've been playing in. In that one, enemies who actually are disabled will typically take one last swing and fall down.
The_Ditto 07-18-07, 05:58 PM	That wouldn't work in one of the campaigns I've been playing in. In that one, enemies who actually are disabled will typically take one last swing and fall down. That's very ... "heroic" of them .. ;) The power specifies that usually the creatures retreat .. unless they are a special villain or something ... oh well ... to each their own I suppose .. :tiphat:
DisposableHero_ 07-18-07, 06:12 PM	Lets not forget the Shaken status applies a -2 penalty to saving throws making it an excellent lead for a more powerful save based effect, even if that secondary effect is not fear.
Azzy 07-18-07, 08:33 PM	That being said ... I'm not entirely sure it helps clear the matter up ... :D Right, sure it does... depending on how you read it. ;) For my opinion: because it's a first level power, I'd be tempted to avoid the stacking ... but again, that's just my opinion ... :tiphat: I'm on the fence, myself. While it's only a first level power, it still requires additional manifesting time, more PP and for the targets to fail their Will saves again before the effects start to stack. While sleep is more limited in scope (area of effect, targets affected), it does cause the targets to become helpless as opposed to the panicked condition caused by a successful maxed-out triple threat of demoralize.
unusualsuspect 07-18-07, 08:53 PM	Waaaaait a minute... When one manifests Demoralize, does one get this effect - nonallies must make a will save or be shaken for the duration - stay with the psion for the entirety of the duration, or is the spread occur once when manifested and the only thing that keeps working is the shaken effect on those that failed that initial will save? In other words... If a 3rd level manifester manifested Demoralize, would any non-ally who moved within 30 feet of him during the next 3 minutes have to make a will save or be shaken?
Nom 07-19-07, 12:04 AM	It's a spread, not an emanation. Like most such effects, it's fire once and attach itself to targets. After this point, range, spread and the like are irrelevant.