Detect Hostile Intent + Ray effect = true? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Detect Hostile Intent + Ray effect = true? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hovnarr
12-06-07, 12:40 PM While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location).

and

You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell.

So, scenario: BBEG is standing within 30' and he is invisble. You discern his direction and discharge a ray effect along the indicate line. 50% miss chance, but that's it right?

Now, let's say this is a [fire] Energy Ray, or something that provides any other visual effect like Entangling Ectoplasm. You just keep firing 1 PP effects until something schticks. Once it does, you should be able to pinpoint that target and hit it with targeted effects such as Dispel Psionics?

(Yes, yes, I know Touchsight and True Seeing is more convenient, but I'm trying to squeeze more use/juice out of 2nd level powers here).
CrimsonDeath
12-06-07, 02:27 PM I'm pretty sure you need to target a specific square with a ray.

A line or cone would do pretty well, though.
hovnarr
12-06-07, 02:34 PM Aw, no lines in level 2 powers I'm afraid. Might as well go with Touchsight then. Oh well. But isn't it strange, if you specify a square at a far point along that line, and there's an invisible creature/object blocking the path, wouldn't it risk getting hit (subject to attack roll and 50% miss chance)?
InkBlot
12-06-07, 02:55 PM Yes, that's how it should work. The rules don't always work how we think they should, but DMs sometimes do.

Even if you have to target a specific square, it's not so bad. There are only 6 squares the invisibaddie could be in, since you know he's no more than 30 feet away, and you know the direction he's in. You could just keep firing rays randomly into those 6 squares, and eventually you'll hit him.

But what I would do, is try to pin him down with grease. With each shot grease covers 2/6ths of the squares he could be in, and covers 2/12ths of the squares he could move into. Once you get him with grease you'll know it from the squeek, slip, thud noises you hear and the skidmarks in the ectoplasm on the floor.

If you have energy missle (also a 2nd level power), then you could hit 5/6ths of the invisobaddie's potential locations at once.
Bukowski
12-06-07, 03:05 PM If you have energy missle (also a 2nd level power), then you could hit 5/6ths of the invisobaddie's potential locations at once.

He'd need to be able to see the opponent to target energy missile, no?
InkBlot
12-06-07, 03:26 PM Not as I understand it. A missle that's targeting the wrong spot just fizzles out and does nothing important. A missle that's targeting the right spot should have a 50/50 chance of hitting.

I don't see any reason why you can't try target something that's not really there.
Bukowski
12-06-07, 03:32 PM I was kinda going off this reason:

Some powers have a target or targets. You manifest these powers on creatures or objects, as defined by the power itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. However, you do not have to select your target until you finish manifesting the power.

If you manifest a targeted power on the wrong type of target the power has no effect. If the target of a power is yourself (the power description has a line that reads “Target: You”), you do not receive a saving throw and power resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are omitted from such powers.

Some powers can be manifested only on willing targets. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are usually omitted from such powers, since only willing subjects can be targeted.

You can't use a targeted effect blindly on a square in the hopes of hitting something.
MnemonicSV
12-06-07, 04:00 PM Energy missile could only target (as objects) 4/6 of those squares (since each missile's target must be within 15 ft of any other). Of course, they would unerringly strike those squares, which means that you could never use this power to deduce a creature's location.

I might rule that the creature would "gasp" or make some other noise when the ground under their feet is targeted though. Maybe the resulting dust/flames/frost/sparks would outline the targets feet or something (perhaps a Spot check)?
SlanderPanic
12-06-07, 04:30 PM I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible. (When the flour touches the invisible character, it becomes an attended object and thus becomes invisible.) However, it'll make him leave footprints when he moves and he'll displace flour in the resulting cloud. I wouldn't say it completely negates his concealment, but I think reducing it to 20% would be fair.
CrimsonDeath
12-06-07, 06:13 PM I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible. (When the flour touches the invisible character, it becomes an attended object and thus becomes invisible.)

If he's using the invisibility spell, then objects he picks up after becoming invisible remain visible until he covers them up with something from his person that is already invisible.
InkBlot
12-06-07, 07:51 PM I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible.
See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. It will reveal the location of the invisible person, the flour will not turn invisible, and the DMG itself gives flour as an example of a way to foil invisibility.
Fafnir
12-07-07, 06:27 PM See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. It will reveal the location of the invisible person, the flour will not turn invisible, and the DMG itself gives flour as an example of a way to foil invisibility.

Also, from Dungeonscape p.32: a target covered in flour has only 20% miss chance. The flour pouch is a pretty cost efficient item for only 1sp.
Slagger the Chuul
12-07-07, 07:52 PM If he's fighting back, you could just ready to attack him when he attacks (you shoot at where the attack comes from). However, this does depend on him making an observable attack.
InkBlot
12-08-07, 02:42 AM See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. If you get hit with a melee or ranged attack then you know what direction the attack came from even if you couldn't see it. The only question is whether or not the attacker moved afterwards. If you ready an action to counter attack, then you don't have to worry about that. You'll still have the 50/50 miss chance of course, but you don't have to worry about aiming for the right square.

Unless the attacker has reach, then the above is rendered meaningless.

All this is paraphrased from the DMG.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 12-06-07, 12:40 PM	While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). and You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. So, scenario: BBEG is standing within 30' and he is invisble. You discern his direction and discharge a ray effect along the indicate line. 50% miss chance, but that's it right? Now, let's say this is a [fire] Energy Ray, or something that provides any other visual effect like Entangling Ectoplasm. You just keep firing 1 PP effects until something schticks. Once it does, you should be able to pinpoint that target and hit it with targeted effects such as Dispel Psionics? (Yes, yes, I know Touchsight and True Seeing is more convenient, but I'm trying to squeeze more use/juice out of 2nd level powers here).
CrimsonDeath 12-06-07, 02:27 PM	I'm pretty sure you need to target a specific square with a ray. A line or cone would do pretty well, though.
hovnarr 12-06-07, 02:34 PM	Aw, no lines in level 2 powers I'm afraid. Might as well go with Touchsight then. Oh well. But isn't it strange, if you specify a square at a far point along that line, and there's an invisible creature/object blocking the path, wouldn't it risk getting hit (subject to attack roll and 50% miss chance)?
InkBlot 12-06-07, 02:55 PM	Yes, that's how it should work. The rules don't always work how we think they should, but DMs sometimes do. Even if you have to target a specific square, it's not so bad. There are only 6 squares the invisibaddie could be in, since you know he's no more than 30 feet away, and you know the direction he's in. You could just keep firing rays randomly into those 6 squares, and eventually you'll hit him. But what I would do, is try to pin him down with grease. With each shot grease covers 2/6ths of the squares he could be in, and covers 2/12ths of the squares he could move into. Once you get him with grease you'll know it from the squeek, slip, thud noises you hear and the skidmarks in the ectoplasm on the floor. If you have energy missle (also a 2nd level power), then you could hit 5/6ths of the invisobaddie's potential locations at once.
Bukowski 12-06-07, 03:05 PM	If you have energy missle (also a 2nd level power), then you could hit 5/6ths of the invisobaddie's potential locations at once. He'd need to be able to see the opponent to target energy missile, no?
InkBlot 12-06-07, 03:26 PM	Not as I understand it. A missle that's targeting the wrong spot just fizzles out and does nothing important. A missle that's targeting the right spot should have a 50/50 chance of hitting. I don't see any reason why you can't try target something that's not really there.
Bukowski 12-06-07, 03:32 PM	I was kinda going off this reason: Some powers have a target or targets. You manifest these powers on creatures or objects, as defined by the power itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. However, you do not have to select your target until you finish manifesting the power. If you manifest a targeted power on the wrong type of target the power has no effect. If the target of a power is yourself (the power description has a line that reads “Target: You”), you do not receive a saving throw and power resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are omitted from such powers. Some powers can be manifested only on willing targets. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. The Saving Throw and Power Resistance lines are usually omitted from such powers, since only willing subjects can be targeted. You can't use a targeted effect blindly on a square in the hopes of hitting something.
MnemonicSV 12-06-07, 04:00 PM	Energy missile could only target (as objects) 4/6 of those squares (since each missile's target must be within 15 ft of any other). Of course, they would unerringly strike those squares, which means that you could never use this power to deduce a creature's location. I might rule that the creature would "gasp" or make some other noise when the ground under their feet is targeted though. Maybe the resulting dust/flames/frost/sparks would outline the targets feet or something (perhaps a Spot check)?
SlanderPanic 12-06-07, 04:30 PM	I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible. (When the flour touches the invisible character, it becomes an attended object and thus becomes invisible.) However, it'll make him leave footprints when he moves and he'll displace flour in the resulting cloud. I wouldn't say it completely negates his concealment, but I think reducing it to 20% would be fair.
CrimsonDeath 12-06-07, 06:13 PM	I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible. (When the flour touches the invisible character, it becomes an attended object and thus becomes invisible.) If he's using the invisibility spell, then objects he picks up after becoming invisible remain visible until he covers them up with something from his person that is already invisible.
InkBlot 12-06-07, 07:51 PM	I'd rather just toss a sack of flour. It won't make him visible. See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. It will reveal the location of the invisible person, the flour will not turn invisible, and the DMG itself gives flour as an example of a way to foil invisibility.
Fafnir 12-07-07, 06:27 PM	See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. It will reveal the location of the invisible person, the flour will not turn invisible, and the DMG itself gives flour as an example of a way to foil invisibility. Also, from Dungeonscape p.32: a target covered in flour has only 20% miss chance. The flour pouch is a pretty cost efficient item for only 1sp.
Slagger the Chuul 12-07-07, 07:52 PM	If he's fighting back, you could just ready to attack him when he attacks (you shoot at where the attack comes from). However, this does depend on him making an observable attack.
InkBlot 12-08-07, 02:42 AM	See page 294 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. If you get hit with a melee or ranged attack then you know what direction the attack came from even if you couldn't see it. The only question is whether or not the attacker moved afterwards. If you ready an action to counter attack, then you don't have to worry about that. You'll still have the 50/50 miss chance of course, but you don't have to worry about aiming for the right square. Unless the attacker has reach, then the above is rendered meaningless. All this is paraphrased from the DMG.