Digging into Burrowing Power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Digging into Burrowing Power [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AntiDjinn
08-30-07, 02:23 PM Since a discussion of the application of Burrowing Power came up in another thread, I thought this might be a good time to re-open discussion of this feat. As far as I know, this meta is unique to psionics and it is a favorite of many groups. It does, however, have some issues that have never been address or errataed.

First issue: The Psicraft check to make the power skip out to the astral plane and then return to its native plane after the appropriate distance. The text tells you how to determine the DC, but does not state what happens if you fail the roll. Normally, if you fail a Psicraft check to fail to identify a psionic effect, but that does not seem to be applicable here. So what happens? It seems the possibilities are:

1) The power fails. This probably the easiest for the DM: You blew the roll, you blew the power. The power + metapsionic functions as a unit and therefore fizzles as a unit. The problem with this answer is that normally a power only fails to manifest on a failed Concentration check, not a Psicraft check.

2) The power works normally, but fails to burrow (the added points are still paid, but the blown Psicraft roll means the power is not a Burrowing Power). This option could be highly dangerous because it would mean the power would hit the barrier and go off. For example, a psion is in a 5 X 5 room and wants to fire a Burrowing Energy Ball through a 10 foot wall and into the 10 X 10 foot chamber beyond. If you rule that missing the Psicraft means the power goes off but fails to burrow then it goes off in the room with him. Shades of 2E! We could have psions blowing themselves up. If you are the manifester, you would probably rather your powers fail than that they misperform.

3) The power skips out to the astral plane, but fails to skip back in. Basically, the same as #1 except for the chance to blow something up on the astral plane. With this option the feat can function as Transdimensional Power (Astral only) if you deliberately fail the Psicraft check.

4) Partial effect based on how badly you failed the roll. The barrier you want to bypass is a 10 feet thick wall of stone. The DC of the Psicraft check is 28 (10 (base) + 8 (hardness) + 10 (distance bypassed)). If your total roll is 27 then the power crosses back from the astral plane 1 foot earlier than intended (It has 12 inches of wall to blow through, but if you roll well on a burrowing attack power it could happen). If you blow the roll by 10 then it goes off on your side of the wall. The disadvantage of this answer is that it is a lot of work and has no actual rules support; there is nothing in the book about partial results on the check for Burrowing Power.

5) Other. Suggestions?
InkBlot
08-30-07, 03:02 PM Option #2 doesn't seem so bad. Not many powers blow up like that if they hit a barrier. A failed burrowing energy push would just damage and dent the wall. A failed burrowing mind thrust would fizzle, because there's no longer a valid target within LOS/LOE.

Because it's a skill check, you don't fail on a natural 1. A psion with a +15 psicraft modifier will never fail to shoot an energy ball through a one-foot-thick wooden wall. Unless you have a jerk DM who won't let your character estimate the thickness and hardness of things, you'll know whether or not it's safe to manifest burrowing energy ball.

And of course, you could just back up 20 feet before manifesting, protect yourself with energy adaptation (or any source of cover!), or just manifest something else.
AntiDjinn
08-30-07, 03:18 PM If it were mine to re-write I would just get rid of the skill roll entirely. Other metapsionics don't make you roll to see if they harmonize with the power to which they are appended. Balance in psionics is achieved by sticking to the principle of getting what you paid for. Instead of +2 points and a roll to see if it functions, I would prefer a scalable metapsionic cost based on distance and hardness of barrier bypassed. If you pay enough then the power functions exactly as intended, if not, then not.
carnivore
08-30-07, 04:51 PM this is great .... will add this to the Psion Build guide with a Quote

nice work AntiDjinn

:D
Lokiyn
08-30-07, 05:01 PM Rather than than adding to the metapsionic cost i would prefer if the feat (if you had to remove the skill, something i don't personally feal is entirely necessary) created a secondary drain on pp.

In other words you manifest the power with the metapsionic cost of a focus and pp, then you are made aware of how much extra pp the power will take to "punch" through the barrier. Say some formulaic PP to distance cost. then you can choose to pay that cost or let the power fizzle.
sijigs
08-30-07, 06:42 PM Anyone of those except #4. LOL. Partial effects and consequences bog the game down.

If I was DMing, I would probably vote #2 as well.
AntiDjinn
08-30-07, 06:44 PM Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark?

Is it the player? "I fire my Burrowing Energy Ball through this wall. I want it to skip out at the wall then return to phase 10 feet later." In this case, the player sets the parameters of the metafeat. If he makes the roll and if the wall actually is 10 feet or less in thickness then the power works. The player may never know the wall was only 5 feet thick because he still manages to toast his opponents in the next room. I generally favor game methodology in which players make active decisions and make their own rolls.

Or does the player simply state that he intends to bypass a given barrier and does not need to guesstimate how much astral distance is involved? If the DM uses this method, if he knows the barrier is metal and 15 feet thick then he knows the DC to bypass it. The DM makes the roll and then determines if the power worked or not. The player knows only if he has some means to do so (using Clairvoyant Sense, or he walks to the next room to see the aftermath of his power) and does not learn the nature and dimensions of the barrier he bypassed.

The problem with the second approach it that is not the way most skill checks work in D&D. Example:

Player: "I try to Bluff the halfling."
DM: "OK, what do you want to convince him of? How big a lie are you trying to sell?"
Player: "Why don't you just make the roll and and his Sense Motive and from the result we determine how far I can stretch the truth?"
DM: "It doesn't work that way. You need to set the parameter of your skill attempt, in this case how improbable a yarn to spin and whether or not you are asking him to take potentially harmful action as a result. These parameters modify the DC of his Sense Motive check. You can't simply make your roll the based on the result decide how big a lie you were shooting for; that method presupposes success with the roll just determining how big a success you get."

Or, somewhere between the two above: The DM determines the DC, but doesn't tell the player. The player makes his roll and is told whether or not the power penetrated (he is told whether or not to roll damage or apply whatever effect). This method supposes that manifested powers provide some feedback (not unreasonable, they are an extension of your Will.). After a few successes or failures, the character might be able to guess the DC he was rolling against ("there must be more to this simple stone wall than I can see because it bounced all but one of my Burrowing Power attempts as though it has a hardness of Force").
AntiDjinn
08-30-07, 07:00 PM Option #2 doesn't seem so bad. Not many powers blow up like that if they hit a barrier. A failed burrowing energy push would just damage and dent the wall. A failed burrowing mind thrust would fizzle, because there's no longer a valid target within LOS/LOE.

Those powers are relatively unlikely to be manifest burrowing because you need to take some effort to be able to target them. On the other hand, area powers such as Energy Ball and Ectoplasmic Shambler let you affect anyone in the area on the other side of the barrier. Area powers are effects you can fire through a wall without having to peek first.

Then again, the fact that the combo of Burrowing Power + area damage or area debuff is so effective may be an indication that there should be some inherent risk.
sijigs
08-30-07, 07:24 PM Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark?

I think the PC should determine how much he wants to bypass and make the DC. He would have to have another power to figure out it his energy ball toasted the orcs beyond.

In our game, my Elan decides how much PPs he drops on his resilience before the DM gives out the damage. Similar principle.

Either that or:

"Meh.. that fireball is only going to do 8 points of damage."
Jaid
08-30-07, 10:23 PM Those powers are relatively unlikely to be manifest burrowing because you need to take some effort to be able to target them. On the other hand, area powers such as Energy Ball and Ectoplasmic Shambler let you affect anyone in the area on the other side of the barrier. Area powers are effects you can fire through a wall without having to peek first.

Then again, the fact that the combo of Burrowing Power + area damage or area debuff is so effective may be an indication that there should be some inherent risk.

i would tend to think that those who invest in burrowing power tend to also invest in methods to target powers that they burrow.
AntiDjinn
08-30-07, 11:08 PM In general, yes, especially if you want to do anything fancy like Retrieve a weapon from the hands of someone in the next room or a locked door murder with Burrowing Death Urge. But certain powers lend themselves to use with the feat alone. Since it is unlikely you pick up all parts of a combo at the same level (barring Reformation), the feat should pay for its upkeep before you can add the powers or levels (for Psicrystal sight link) to be able to do individual targeting.
MnemonicSV
08-31-07, 02:00 AM 5) Does the amount of distance skipped through the astral plane count toward the range limit? Theoretically, the distance skipped physically through the astral plane would be 0-feet, even though it's X-feet in the prime material, as per a teleportation effect (since the astral is coterminous with the material plane, not coexistant).

Can you use burrowing power to bypass a tower shield? On one hand, it's an item attended by the character. On the other, it's effectively "barrier" that gives you cover.
Jaid
08-31-07, 02:08 AM Can you use burrowing power to bypass a tower shield? On one hand, it's an item attended by the character. On the other, it's effectively "barrier" that gives you cover.

personally, i would rule no. or rather, i would rule no if i could find a situation that made me actually care in the slightest by actually having a game effect.

or, to put it another way... find me a ranged power that requires a non-touch ranged attack roll, and i will consider the possibility of caring one way or another.
MnemonicSV
08-31-07, 02:19 AM personally, i would rule no. or rather, i would rule no if i could find a situation that made me actually care in the slightest by actually having a game effect.

or, to put it another way... find me a ranged power that requires a non-touch ranged attack roll, and i will consider the possibility of caring one way or another.

For example, manifesting a burst power. It would be much more effective behind the tower shield (where the foe is) as opposed to in front of the tower shield (where the foe has total cover).

Nothing says you can only use burrowing power for powers which require an attack roll, or powers which have a "target" entry.
AntiDjinn
08-31-07, 03:13 AM If you are going to apply Burrowing Power to area effects then you are going to have to come up with some way to determine the DC for each object. The standard formula is for a linear effect (no dimensions other than length) going from you to your target site (bursts target a point at the intersections of spaces on the battle map). After the effect has gone off you can draw an infinite number of lines through the origin point passing through points on a subject's target shield. So while the Psicraft DC was 10 + Hardness + linear distance, you will have X + Hardness + cross-sectional area of the volume of the effect to be tunneled through the astral plane + distance.

If you want to deal with target shield and don't want a DC and a roll for each and every such object then what you really need is a feat that simply converts a burst or emanation into a spread. An energy ball this is handled as a spread will bypass a target shield by enveloping it and its wielder. A Touchsight that has been converted to a spread will detect someone hiding behind full cover if they are in the area, as long as there is a line of effect somewhere within the area.
AntiDjinn
08-31-07, 03:27 AM Example:

Enveloping Power [Metapsionic]

Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. This feat may only be applied to a power with an area effect defined as a burst or emanation or a personal range power that creates such a defined effect. The effect becomes a spread over its normal area. Creatures with cover in the area loose the benefit of cover if there is a line of effect to them from any point within the area. The power still has a center of effect, but is considered to originate from all points within the area. Cost: +3 points.

It won't go through solid walls the way Burrowng Power does, but it doesn't require a roll and for multiple subjects with cover it will get the job done better.
Jaid
08-31-07, 05:18 PM For example, manifesting a burst power. It would be much more effective behind the tower shield (where the foe is) as opposed to in front of the tower shield (where the foe has total cover).

Nothing says you can only use burrowing power for powers which require an attack roll, or powers which have a "target" entry.

hmmm... yeah, i still probably wouldn't allow it... just kill all his buddies and let the moron sit behind his tower shield forfeiting the most important resource he has.

or just target his shield, destroy it with damage, and let that continue on to him (if you're using sonic ball, for example) =P
MnemonicSV
08-31-07, 11:56 PM Example:

Enveloping Power [Metapsionic]

Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. This feat may only be applied to a power with an area effect defined as a burst or emanation or a personal range power that creates such a defined effect. The effect becomes a spread over its normal area. Creatures with cover in the area loose the benefit of cover if there is a line of effect to them from any point within the area. The power still has a center of effect, but is considered to originate from all points within the area. Cost: +3 points.

It won't go through solid walls the way Burrowng Power does, but it doesn't require a roll and for multiple subjects with cover it will get the job done better.

Nice. I like it.
InkBlot
09-01-07, 12:24 AM Enveloping Power [Metapsionic]
...
Cost: +3 points.
Why the odd cost? I would probably put this feat at +2 points. And it's a good feat. I like it.
AntiDjinn
09-01-07, 10:22 AM I figured 1 point more than Burrowing Power to dispense with the skill roll plus is explicitly affects the area of Touchsight and similar while Burrowing Power only affects targeting of powers. Metamagic needs to keep its costs to multiples of 1 level because of spell slots. Metapsionics does not face this restriction; if an advantage equates to 1&1/2 levels then the cost is +3 points. Augmentations can be odd point costs, so there is no reason metapsionics can't be too. Anyway, the odd cost assigned prevents some thieving mage from easily converting it to a metamagic.
InkBlot
09-01-07, 10:39 AM Even with the dispensation of Burrowing Power's skill roll, Enveloping Power isn't that strong. You can't use Enveloping Power with energy push to spill King Kiaus's morning coffee all over his lap from the relative safety of the royal sewers under the castle. +2pp should be fine.
Slagger the Chuul
09-01-07, 09:39 PM Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark?

It also raises the important question of why it matters how hard a barrier is when you're skipping powers past it through the Astral Plane. The question of mechanical balance aside, the issue of hardness suggests that the burrowing power interacts with the barrier it is trying to bypass, probably in order to determine how to travel past it.

My guess is that the Psicraft check represents an understanding of the physical thickness of the barrier through brief contact, and the translation of that understanding into an appropriate amount of astral wobble. The hardness of a barrier on the Material Plane won't make any difference to a power traveling on the Astral Plane, but it could make a difference to the psion trying to momentarily sense the barrier's thickness in order to bypass it.

Or, somewhere between the two above: The DM determines the DC, but doesn't tell the player. The player makes his roll and is told whether or not the power penetrated (he is told whether or not to roll damage or apply whatever effect). This method supposes that manifested powers provide some feedback (not unreasonable, they are an extension of your Will.).

The idea of a spellcaster/manifester having a sense that their burrowing power has failed is similar to the standard of being aware that a creature has saved against a spell/power. There's precedent for feedback on failed effects.
hovnarr
09-04-07, 06:27 AM I draw a pretty sharp line between player and character decisions. I simply give the full info needed for my players to make tactical decisions. The rationale for the action the character ends up taking can be something else entirely like a "hunch" or "adventuring experience" or whatever. Maybe the psion gets a feel for how difficult the barrier would be to penetrate, enough for him to use Burrowing Power? Doesn't mean he knows its exact thickness though, that's just for the game mechanic (and only relevant for the player).

I love Burrowing Power. It enables you to manifest an Astral Construct or other threat to kill the baddies while your party is protected behind a wall of ectoplasm or (at higher levels) TK sphere.
Slagger the Chuul
09-04-07, 06:34 AM I love Burrowing Power. It enables you to manifest an Astral Construct or other threat to kill the baddies while your party is protected behind a wall of ectoplasm or (at higher levels) TK sphere.

Using just about anything from inside the safety of a psionic telekinetic sphere is fun; floating over the battlefield picking off enemies with psionic disintegrate was a personal highlight, especially after whisking a veritable army of hostages into the future with mass time hop.
AntiDjinn
09-04-07, 02:35 PM In the case of a Wall of Ectoplasm or Telekinetic Sphere that you created yourself, there is no question that you know the exact DC you need to beat because you are aware of all the parameters of your own barrier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AntiDjinn 08-30-07, 02:23 PM	Since a discussion of the application of Burrowing Power came up in another thread, I thought this might be a good time to re-open discussion of this feat. As far as I know, this meta is unique to psionics and it is a favorite of many groups. It does, however, have some issues that have never been address or errataed. First issue: The Psicraft check to make the power skip out to the astral plane and then return to its native plane after the appropriate distance. The text tells you how to determine the DC, but does not state what happens if you fail the roll. Normally, if you fail a Psicraft check to fail to identify a psionic effect, but that does not seem to be applicable here. So what happens? It seems the possibilities are: 1) The power fails. This probably the easiest for the DM: You blew the roll, you blew the power. The power + metapsionic functions as a unit and therefore fizzles as a unit. The problem with this answer is that normally a power only fails to manifest on a failed Concentration check, not a Psicraft check. 2) The power works normally, but fails to burrow (the added points are still paid, but the blown Psicraft roll means the power is not a Burrowing Power). This option could be highly dangerous because it would mean the power would hit the barrier and go off. For example, a psion is in a 5 X 5 room and wants to fire a Burrowing Energy Ball through a 10 foot wall and into the 10 X 10 foot chamber beyond. If you rule that missing the Psicraft means the power goes off but fails to burrow then it goes off in the room with him. Shades of 2E! We could have psions blowing themselves up. If you are the manifester, you would probably rather your powers fail than that they misperform. 3) The power skips out to the astral plane, but fails to skip back in. Basically, the same as #1 except for the chance to blow something up on the astral plane. With this option the feat can function as Transdimensional Power (Astral only) if you deliberately fail the Psicraft check. 4) Partial effect based on how badly you failed the roll. The barrier you want to bypass is a 10 feet thick wall of stone. The DC of the Psicraft check is 28 (10 (base) + 8 (hardness) + 10 (distance bypassed)). If your total roll is 27 then the power crosses back from the astral plane 1 foot earlier than intended (It has 12 inches of wall to blow through, but if you roll well on a burrowing attack power it could happen). If you blow the roll by 10 then it goes off on your side of the wall. The disadvantage of this answer is that it is a lot of work and has no actual rules support; there is nothing in the book about partial results on the check for Burrowing Power. 5) Other. Suggestions?
InkBlot 08-30-07, 03:02 PM	Option #2 doesn't seem so bad. Not many powers blow up like that if they hit a barrier. A failed burrowing energy push would just damage and dent the wall. A failed burrowing mind thrust would fizzle, because there's no longer a valid target within LOS/LOE. Because it's a skill check, you don't fail on a natural 1. A psion with a +15 psicraft modifier will never fail to shoot an energy ball through a one-foot-thick wooden wall. Unless you have a jerk DM who won't let your character estimate the thickness and hardness of things, you'll know whether or not it's safe to manifest burrowing energy ball. And of course, you could just back up 20 feet before manifesting, protect yourself with energy adaptation (or any source of cover!), or just manifest something else.
AntiDjinn 08-30-07, 03:18 PM	If it were mine to re-write I would just get rid of the skill roll entirely. Other metapsionics don't make you roll to see if they harmonize with the power to which they are appended. Balance in psionics is achieved by sticking to the principle of getting what you paid for. Instead of +2 points and a roll to see if it functions, I would prefer a scalable metapsionic cost based on distance and hardness of barrier bypassed. If you pay enough then the power functions exactly as intended, if not, then not.
carnivore 08-30-07, 04:51 PM	this is great .... will add this to the Psion Build guide with a Quote nice work AntiDjinn :D
Lokiyn 08-30-07, 05:01 PM	Rather than than adding to the metapsionic cost i would prefer if the feat (if you had to remove the skill, something i don't personally feal is entirely necessary) created a secondary drain on pp. In other words you manifest the power with the metapsionic cost of a focus and pp, then you are made aware of how much extra pp the power will take to "punch" through the barrier. Say some formulaic PP to distance cost. then you can choose to pay that cost or let the power fizzle.
sijigs 08-30-07, 06:42 PM	Anyone of those except #4. LOL. Partial effects and consequences bog the game down. If I was DMing, I would probably vote #2 as well.
AntiDjinn 08-30-07, 06:44 PM	Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark? Is it the player? "I fire my Burrowing Energy Ball through this wall. I want it to skip out at the wall then return to phase 10 feet later." In this case, the player sets the parameters of the metafeat. If he makes the roll and if the wall actually is 10 feet or less in thickness then the power works. The player may never know the wall was only 5 feet thick because he still manages to toast his opponents in the next room. I generally favor game methodology in which players make active decisions and make their own rolls. Or does the player simply state that he intends to bypass a given barrier and does not need to guesstimate how much astral distance is involved? If the DM uses this method, if he knows the barrier is metal and 15 feet thick then he knows the DC to bypass it. The DM makes the roll and then determines if the power worked or not. The player knows only if he has some means to do so (using Clairvoyant Sense, or he walks to the next room to see the aftermath of his power) and does not learn the nature and dimensions of the barrier he bypassed. The problem with the second approach it that is not the way most skill checks work in D&D. Example: Player: "I try to Bluff the halfling." DM: "OK, what do you want to convince him of? How big a lie are you trying to sell?" Player: "Why don't you just make the roll and and his Sense Motive and from the result we determine how far I can stretch the truth?" DM: "It doesn't work that way. You need to set the parameter of your skill attempt, in this case how improbable a yarn to spin and whether or not you are asking him to take potentially harmful action as a result. These parameters modify the DC of his Sense Motive check. You can't simply make your roll the based on the result decide how big a lie you were shooting for; that method presupposes success with the roll just determining how big a success you get." Or, somewhere between the two above: The DM determines the DC, but doesn't tell the player. The player makes his roll and is told whether or not the power penetrated (he is told whether or not to roll damage or apply whatever effect). This method supposes that manifested powers provide some feedback (not unreasonable, they are an extension of your Will.). After a few successes or failures, the character might be able to guess the DC he was rolling against ("there must be more to this simple stone wall than I can see because it bounced all but one of my Burrowing Power attempts as though it has a hardness of Force").
AntiDjinn 08-30-07, 07:00 PM	Option #2 doesn't seem so bad. Not many powers blow up like that if they hit a barrier. A failed burrowing energy push would just damage and dent the wall. A failed burrowing mind thrust would fizzle, because there's no longer a valid target within LOS/LOE. Those powers are relatively unlikely to be manifest burrowing because you need to take some effort to be able to target them. On the other hand, area powers such as Energy Ball and Ectoplasmic Shambler let you affect anyone in the area on the other side of the barrier. Area powers are effects you can fire through a wall without having to peek first. Then again, the fact that the combo of Burrowing Power + area damage or area debuff is so effective may be an indication that there should be some inherent risk.
sijigs 08-30-07, 07:24 PM	Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark? I think the PC should determine how much he wants to bypass and make the DC. He would have to have another power to figure out it his energy ball toasted the orcs beyond. In our game, my Elan decides how much PPs he drops on his resilience before the DM gives out the damage. Similar principle. Either that or: "Meh.. that fireball is only going to do 8 points of damage."
Jaid 08-30-07, 10:23 PM	Those powers are relatively unlikely to be manifest burrowing because you need to take some effort to be able to target them. On the other hand, area powers such as Energy Ball and Ectoplasmic Shambler let you affect anyone in the area on the other side of the barrier. Area powers are effects you can fire through a wall without having to peek first. Then again, the fact that the combo of Burrowing Power + area damage or area debuff is so effective may be an indication that there should be some inherent risk. i would tend to think that those who invest in burrowing power tend to also invest in methods to target powers that they burrow.
AntiDjinn 08-30-07, 11:08 PM	In general, yes, especially if you want to do anything fancy like Retrieve a weapon from the hands of someone in the next room or a locked door murder with Burrowing Death Urge. But certain powers lend themselves to use with the feat alone. Since it is unlikely you pick up all parts of a combo at the same level (barring Reformation), the feat should pay for its upkeep before you can add the powers or levels (for Psicrystal sight link) to be able to do individual targeting.
MnemonicSV 08-31-07, 02:00 AM	5) Does the amount of distance skipped through the astral plane count toward the range limit? Theoretically, the distance skipped physically through the astral plane would be 0-feet, even though it's X-feet in the prime material, as per a teleportation effect (since the astral is coterminous with the material plane, not coexistant). Can you use burrowing power to bypass a tower shield? On one hand, it's an item attended by the character. On the other, it's effectively "barrier" that gives you cover.
Jaid 08-31-07, 02:08 AM	Can you use burrowing power to bypass a tower shield? On one hand, it's an item attended by the character. On the other, it's effectively "barrier" that gives you cover. personally, i would rule no. or rather, i would rule no if i could find a situation that made me actually care in the slightest by actually having a game effect. or, to put it another way... find me a ranged power that requires a non-touch ranged attack roll, and i will consider the possibility of caring one way or another.
MnemonicSV 08-31-07, 02:19 AM	personally, i would rule no. or rather, i would rule no if i could find a situation that made me actually care in the slightest by actually having a game effect. or, to put it another way... find me a ranged power that requires a non-touch ranged attack roll, and i will consider the possibility of caring one way or another. For example, manifesting a burst power. It would be much more effective behind the tower shield (where the foe is) as opposed to in front of the tower shield (where the foe has total cover). Nothing says you can only use burrowing power for powers which require an attack roll, or powers which have a "target" entry.
AntiDjinn 08-31-07, 03:13 AM	If you are going to apply Burrowing Power to area effects then you are going to have to come up with some way to determine the DC for each object. The standard formula is for a linear effect (no dimensions other than length) going from you to your target site (bursts target a point at the intersections of spaces on the battle map). After the effect has gone off you can draw an infinite number of lines through the origin point passing through points on a subject's target shield. So while the Psicraft DC was 10 + Hardness + linear distance, you will have X + Hardness + cross-sectional area of the volume of the effect to be tunneled through the astral plane + distance. If you want to deal with target shield and don't want a DC and a roll for each and every such object then what you really need is a feat that simply converts a burst or emanation into a spread. An energy ball this is handled as a spread will bypass a target shield by enveloping it and its wielder. A Touchsight that has been converted to a spread will detect someone hiding behind full cover if they are in the area, as long as there is a line of effect somewhere within the area.
AntiDjinn 08-31-07, 03:27 AM	Example: Enveloping Power [Metapsionic] Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. This feat may only be applied to a power with an area effect defined as a burst or emanation or a personal range power that creates such a defined effect. The effect becomes a spread over its normal area. Creatures with cover in the area loose the benefit of cover if there is a line of effect to them from any point within the area. The power still has a center of effect, but is considered to originate from all points within the area. Cost: +3 points. It won't go through solid walls the way Burrowng Power does, but it doesn't require a roll and for multiple subjects with cover it will get the job done better.
Jaid 08-31-07, 05:18 PM	For example, manifesting a burst power. It would be much more effective behind the tower shield (where the foe is) as opposed to in front of the tower shield (where the foe has total cover). Nothing says you can only use burrowing power for powers which require an attack roll, or powers which have a "target" entry. hmmm... yeah, i still probably wouldn't allow it... just kill all his buddies and let the moron sit behind his tower shield forfeiting the most important resource he has. or just target his shield, destroy it with damage, and let that continue on to him (if you're using sonic ball, for example) =P
MnemonicSV 08-31-07, 11:56 PM	Example: Enveloping Power [Metapsionic] Benefit: To use this feat you must expend your psionic focus. This feat may only be applied to a power with an area effect defined as a burst or emanation or a personal range power that creates such a defined effect. The effect becomes a spread over its normal area. Creatures with cover in the area loose the benefit of cover if there is a line of effect to them from any point within the area. The power still has a center of effect, but is considered to originate from all points within the area. Cost: +3 points. It won't go through solid walls the way Burrowng Power does, but it doesn't require a roll and for multiple subjects with cover it will get the job done better. Nice. I like it.
InkBlot 09-01-07, 12:24 AM	Enveloping Power [Metapsionic] ... Cost: +3 points. Why the odd cost? I would probably put this feat at +2 points. And it's a good feat. I like it.
AntiDjinn 09-01-07, 10:22 AM	I figured 1 point more than Burrowing Power to dispense with the skill roll plus is explicitly affects the area of Touchsight and similar while Burrowing Power only affects targeting of powers. Metamagic needs to keep its costs to multiples of 1 level because of spell slots. Metapsionics does not face this restriction; if an advantage equates to 1&1/2 levels then the cost is +3 points. Augmentations can be odd point costs, so there is no reason metapsionics can't be too. Anyway, the odd cost assigned prevents some thieving mage from easily converting it to a metamagic.
InkBlot 09-01-07, 10:39 AM	Even with the dispensation of Burrowing Power's skill roll, Enveloping Power isn't that strong. You can't use Enveloping Power with energy push to spill King Kiaus's morning coffee all over his lap from the relative safety of the royal sewers under the castle. +2pp should be fine.
Slagger the Chuul 09-01-07, 09:39 PM	Being made aware of how much space or material hardness to breach raises another point: The feat doesn't say it tells you how thick or tough the barrier is, so how do people handle the DC and who determines the benchmark? It also raises the important question of why it matters how hard a barrier is when you're skipping powers past it through the Astral Plane. The question of mechanical balance aside, the issue of hardness suggests that the burrowing power interacts with the barrier it is trying to bypass, probably in order to determine how to travel past it. My guess is that the Psicraft check represents an understanding of the physical thickness of the barrier through brief contact, and the translation of that understanding into an appropriate amount of astral wobble. The hardness of a barrier on the Material Plane won't make any difference to a power traveling on the Astral Plane, but it could make a difference to the psion trying to momentarily sense the barrier's thickness in order to bypass it. Or, somewhere between the two above: The DM determines the DC, but doesn't tell the player. The player makes his roll and is told whether or not the power penetrated (he is told whether or not to roll damage or apply whatever effect). This method supposes that manifested powers provide some feedback (not unreasonable, they are an extension of your Will.). The idea of a spellcaster/manifester having a sense that their burrowing power has failed is similar to the standard of being aware that a creature has saved against a spell/power. There's precedent for feedback on failed effects.
hovnarr 09-04-07, 06:27 AM	I draw a pretty sharp line between player and character decisions. I simply give the full info needed for my players to make tactical decisions. The rationale for the action the character ends up taking can be something else entirely like a "hunch" or "adventuring experience" or whatever. Maybe the psion gets a feel for how difficult the barrier would be to penetrate, enough for him to use Burrowing Power? Doesn't mean he knows its exact thickness though, that's just for the game mechanic (and only relevant for the player). I love Burrowing Power. It enables you to manifest an Astral Construct or other threat to kill the baddies while your party is protected behind a wall of ectoplasm or (at higher levels) TK sphere.
Slagger the Chuul 09-04-07, 06:34 AM	I love Burrowing Power. It enables you to manifest an Astral Construct or other threat to kill the baddies while your party is protected behind a wall of ectoplasm or (at higher levels) TK sphere. Using just about anything from inside the safety of a psionic telekinetic sphere is fun; floating over the battlefield picking off enemies with psionic disintegrate was a personal highlight, especially after whisking a veritable army of hostages into the future with mass time hop.
AntiDjinn 09-04-07, 02:35 PM	In the case of a Wall of Ectoplasm or Telekinetic Sphere that you created yourself, there is no question that you know the exact DC you need to beat because you are aware of all the parameters of your own barrier.