dimesion swap question [Archive] - Wizards Community

dimesion swap question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
angryscrub
03-22-08, 08:49 PM i was looking at dimension swap in the srd. it says you can bring along objects, but doesn't seem to give any guidelines for doing so. what's the upper limit on the size of an object you can bring along? thoughts?
InkBlot
03-23-08, 01:44 AM The target is "you and one ally, or any two allies in range." Since objects can't ally themselves with anybody, you can only target creatures. The only objects this power could affect would be the targeted creatures' attended objects; things they're carrying or holding. Logically, the upper limit to what you could bring with you is your own carrying capacity.
CrimsonDeath
03-23-08, 04:25 AM That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it?
Slagger the Chuul
03-23-08, 07:06 AM That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it?

Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight?

I would suggest that the creature should actually be able to pick up the item and carry it around; basically as if it were part of itself.
angryscrub
03-23-08, 10:29 AM That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it?

heh. a better question in that case would be does the horse consider itself your ally? cause if not, he's prolly not going anywhere. but that does bring up another question for me. should it be assumed you have to be able to communicate with your ally for this to work? harmless, will negates, should mean that if it's not expected, the ally will try to make a save against. an ally in a silence effect, facing away from you, this prolly wouldn't work on, i'm guessing with some other way to communicate your intent besides verbal.

Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight?

I would suggest that the creature should actually be able to pick up the item and carry it around; basically as if it were part of itself.

but if you make it dependent on the subjects carrying capacity, that doesn't really make sense either. i can switch the half orc and halflings positions, unless the half orc gives the halfling his backpack?
CrimsonDeath
03-23-08, 02:30 PM Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight?
For the sake of argument, drag weight. I believe we've already determined that you can probably bring along your max load; dragging that around would be a largely trivial change in the scenario.

Note that I'm not asking, "Is he carrying it?" I'm asking, "Is it attended?"

heh. a better question in that case would be does the horse consider itself your ally?
Consider a horselike creature with humanlike Intelligence. An Awakened horse, perhaps. And let's assume that the manifester has some way of communicating telepathically, just to avoid further complications. I'm really only interested in exploring carrying capacity at the moment.
Slagger the Chuul
03-23-08, 04:42 PM Note that I'm not asking, "Is he carrying it?" I'm asking, "Is it attended?"

Checking the material (see the block, below), our options seem to include objects that are: grasped, held, touched, or worn. While this doesn't provide any definitive answer (since you could touch anything from a pebble to a mountain), the general bent seems to be towards things you can handle, and I can't really think of a better way to unequivocally assess that than with carrying capacity.

The 3.5 Player's Handbook provides the following noteworthy mentions of "attended items".

Page 167: "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus)."

Page 177: The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater.
angryscrub
03-23-08, 07:28 PM ok, so let's say your party, which includes an awakened horse, has just had its butt handed to it and is running away in fine fashion. the horse, who has been blinded and deafened by the foe, also happens to be pulling a cart loaded with a few hundred pounds of vermicious knid extract, which is needed to cure a plague that is devastating a nearby population center.

unfortunately, there is a large 20' wide and 200' deep ravine that is blocking the way, with the enemy just rounds behind.. the half orc ties a rope to the halfling and throws him across. you communicate with the horse, who is luckily telepathic, your intention to dimension swap him with the halfling. does the cart come?

the cart is quite clearly attended. heck, if we assume a telepathic centaur instead of a horse, it's entirely possible he hitched himself to it. i'd be inclined to say it comes, but i'm not sure at what point it starts to become ridiculous.

EDIT: duh, just checked teleport. the spell description actually specifies maximum load as the limit on how much material each subject of the spell can bring. seems reasonable to apply the same criteria to dimension swap, i guess.
InkBlot
03-25-08, 01:58 PM if you make it dependent on the subjects carrying capacity, that doesn't really make sense either. i can switch the half orc and halflings positions, unless the half orc gives the halfling his backpack?

The half-orc is strong enough to pull his 100lb backpack through the dimensional rift, but the halfling isn't. That makes sense to me.
CrimsonDeath
03-25-08, 04:38 PM I once played a Psion (Nomad) in a campaign with a Chaos Mage of a flavor that also specialized in movement (Traveller). Chaos magic movement effects are usually limited by weight, but psychoportation effects are generally limited by creature size and carrying capacity; frequently, my answer to "Can you teleport that?" was "If the half-ogre carries it." My friend who played the Chaos Mage mentioned that his character might someday ask how my character could teleport more or less depending on who was carrying it, and I actually thought about a plausible answer. Basically, the idea is that I'm not transporting a creature so much as the creature's idea of itself. A creature has an implicit idea of how much it can carry and, when carrying something comfortably, includes its gear in its concept of itself. (As a thought experiment to demonstrate the plausibility of this theory: Take a moment to imagine how you look. Got a good mental image? Okay... Were you naked?)
angryscrub
03-25-08, 10:43 PM I once played a Psion (Nomad) in a campaign with a Chaos Mage of a flavor that also specialized in movement (Traveller). Chaos magic movement effects are usually limited by weight, but psychoportation effects are generally limited by creature size and carrying capacity; frequently, my answer to "Can you teleport that?" was "If the half-ogre carries it." My friend who played the Chaos Mage mentioned that his character might someday ask how my character could teleport more or less depending on who was carrying it, and I actually thought about a plausible answer. Basically, the idea is that I'm not transporting a creature so much as the creature's idea of itself. A creature has an implicit idea of how much it can carry and, when carrying something comfortably, includes its gear in its concept of itself. (As a thought experiment to demonstrate the plausibility of this theory: Take a moment to imagine how you look. Got a good mental image? Okay... Were you naked?)

i actually like that idea, though if that were the mechanic for it to work, you'd have to be very careful about teleporting insane and/or tripping people. someone insane enough may literally believe that he is carrying the whole world. heh.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryscrub 03-22-08, 08:49 PM	i was looking at dimension swap in the srd. it says you can bring along objects, but doesn't seem to give any guidelines for doing so. what's the upper limit on the size of an object you can bring along? thoughts?
InkBlot 03-23-08, 01:44 AM	The target is "you and one ally, or any two allies in range." Since objects can't ally themselves with anybody, you can only target creatures. The only objects this power could affect would be the targeted creatures' attended objects; things they're carrying or holding. Logically, the upper limit to what you could bring with you is your own carrying capacity.
CrimsonDeath 03-23-08, 04:25 AM	That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it?
Slagger the Chuul 03-23-08, 07:06 AM	That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it? Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight? I would suggest that the creature should actually be able to pick up the item and carry it around; basically as if it were part of itself.
angryscrub 03-23-08, 10:29 AM	That's probably a reasonable interpretation, but just to play devil's advocate... Would a horse-drawn cart be considered to be "attended" by the horse pulling it? heh. a better question in that case would be does the horse consider itself your ally? cause if not, he's prolly not going anywhere. but that does bring up another question for me. should it be assumed you have to be able to communicate with your ally for this to work? harmless, will negates, should mean that if it's not expected, the ally will try to make a save against. an ally in a silence effect, facing away from you, this prolly wouldn't work on, i'm guessing with some other way to communicate your intent besides verbal. Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight? I would suggest that the creature should actually be able to pick up the item and carry it around; basically as if it were part of itself. but if you make it dependent on the subjects carrying capacity, that doesn't really make sense either. i can switch the half orc and halflings positions, unless the half orc gives the halfling his backpack?
CrimsonDeath 03-23-08, 02:30 PM	Good question. Is it within the scope of the horse's heavy carrying capacity, or only within its drag weight? For the sake of argument, drag weight. I believe we've already determined that you can probably bring along your max load; dragging that around would be a largely trivial change in the scenario. Note that I'm not asking, "Is he carrying it?" I'm asking, "Is it attended?" heh. a better question in that case would be does the horse consider itself your ally? Consider a horselike creature with humanlike Intelligence. An Awakened horse, perhaps. And let's assume that the manifester has some way of communicating telepathically, just to avoid further complications. I'm really only interested in exploring carrying capacity at the moment.
Slagger the Chuul 03-23-08, 04:42 PM	Note that I'm not asking, "Is he carrying it?" I'm asking, "Is it attended?" Checking the material (see the block, below), our options seem to include objects that are: grasped, held, touched, or worn. While this doesn't provide any definitive answer (since you could touch anything from a pebble to a mountain), the general bent seems to be towards things you can handle, and I can't really think of a better way to unequivocally assess that than with carrying capacity. The 3.5 Player's Handbook provides the following noteworthy mentions of "attended items". Page 167: "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus)." Page 177: The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater.
angryscrub 03-23-08, 07:28 PM	ok, so let's say your party, which includes an awakened horse, has just had its butt handed to it and is running away in fine fashion. the horse, who has been blinded and deafened by the foe, also happens to be pulling a cart loaded with a few hundred pounds of vermicious knid extract, which is needed to cure a plague that is devastating a nearby population center. unfortunately, there is a large 20' wide and 200' deep ravine that is blocking the way, with the enemy just rounds behind.. the half orc ties a rope to the halfling and throws him across. you communicate with the horse, who is luckily telepathic, your intention to dimension swap him with the halfling. does the cart come? the cart is quite clearly attended. heck, if we assume a telepathic centaur instead of a horse, it's entirely possible he hitched himself to it. i'd be inclined to say it comes, but i'm not sure at what point it starts to become ridiculous. EDIT: duh, just checked teleport. the spell description actually specifies maximum load as the limit on how much material each subject of the spell can bring. seems reasonable to apply the same criteria to dimension swap, i guess.
InkBlot 03-25-08, 01:58 PM	if you make it dependent on the subjects carrying capacity, that doesn't really make sense either. i can switch the half orc and halflings positions, unless the half orc gives the halfling his backpack? The half-orc is strong enough to pull his 100lb backpack through the dimensional rift, but the halfling isn't. That makes sense to me.
CrimsonDeath 03-25-08, 04:38 PM	I once played a Psion (Nomad) in a campaign with a Chaos Mage of a flavor that also specialized in movement (Traveller). Chaos magic movement effects are usually limited by weight, but psychoportation effects are generally limited by creature size and carrying capacity; frequently, my answer to "Can you teleport that?" was "If the half-ogre carries it." My friend who played the Chaos Mage mentioned that his character might someday ask how my character could teleport more or less depending on who was carrying it, and I actually thought about a plausible answer. Basically, the idea is that I'm not transporting a creature so much as the creature's idea of itself. A creature has an implicit idea of how much it can carry and, when carrying something comfortably, includes its gear in its concept of itself. (As a thought experiment to demonstrate the plausibility of this theory: Take a moment to imagine how you look. Got a good mental image? Okay... Were you naked?)
angryscrub 03-25-08, 10:43 PM	I once played a Psion (Nomad) in a campaign with a Chaos Mage of a flavor that also specialized in movement (Traveller). Chaos magic movement effects are usually limited by weight, but psychoportation effects are generally limited by creature size and carrying capacity; frequently, my answer to "Can you teleport that?" was "If the half-ogre carries it." My friend who played the Chaos Mage mentioned that his character might someday ask how my character could teleport more or less depending on who was carrying it, and I actually thought about a plausible answer. Basically, the idea is that I'm not transporting a creature so much as the creature's idea of itself. A creature has an implicit idea of how much it can carry and, when carrying something comfortably, includes its gear in its concept of itself. (As a thought experiment to demonstrate the plausibility of this theory: Take a moment to imagine how you look. Got a good mental image? Okay... Were you naked?) i actually like that idea, though if that were the mechanic for it to work, you'd have to be very careful about teleporting insane and/or tripping people. someone insane enough may literally believe that he is carrying the whole world. heh.