Discipline [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Discipline [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voran_Illezou
05-02-07, 09:14 PM What, i nyour opinion, is the most useful Discipline for the Psion class?
Cala, Legend Reborn
05-02-07, 09:16 PM If it's just a straight opinion that you want, as opposed to an analysis/comparison, my pick is the telepathy discipline.
JulesCARV
05-02-07, 09:25 PM I think the most broadly held view is that telepathy, psychometabolism, and metacreativity are the "stronger" disciplines, and psychokinesis, clairsentience, and psychoportation are the "weaker" disciplines. (not sure about clairsentience)
InkBlot
05-02-07, 09:45 PM It entirely depends on what role you need to fulfill in your party. However, generaly, it seems that the disciplines could be ranked as such for overall usefullness (from most to least useful):

Telepath - everything is under your control, except the undead and constructs
Shaper - always have the right tool for the job
Egoist - always be the right tool for the job
Seer - always know what the the job is
Nomad - always be able to get to the job
Kineticist - singe the job and make it angry at you

Of course this is situational. In a party without a true tank, an egoist or shaper is better. In an adventure involving lots of travel, terrain obstacles, and planehopping a nomad is best. In a game with lots of political intrigue, or just a recurring enemy that keeps giving you the slip, a seer will always have an edge. If there's a spellcaster in the party, you may want to be a kineticist so the caster doesn't have to waste slots blasting (which psionics is better at anyway).
BloodSpill
05-03-07, 08:26 AM If there's a spellcaster in the party, you may want to be a kineticist so the caster doesn't have to waste slots blasting (which psionics is better at anyway).

Since when?
InkBlot
05-03-07, 01:51 PM Since you can choose which energy type you want to use on the fly, and without having to learn a new power for each type. That ball of fire bounced right off the monster? Try a ball of electricity! Cone of cold catching your allies too? Try a line of cold!

Since fire and cold powers deal +1 point of damage per die. If one wizard had a fireball that did 10d8 damage, and another wizard had a fireball that did 10d6 damage, which one would you rather learn fireball from?

Since electricity damage gives you a +2 to the save DC, +2 to hit, and +2 to ML checks to overcome power resistance. Most enemies carry metal on them.

Since sonic resistance is very rare.

Since psionics has instantaneous creation powers which deal damage with no save and no power resistance.

Since you can use energy conversion + a campfire to turn your psicrystal into a raygun.

Since Burrowing Power (a feat which there still isn't an arcane version of, AFAIK) lets you kill creatures safely from behind a wall.

The only thing that spellcasting has over psionics, as far as blasting goes, is stamina and metafeats. Stamina won't make the baddies go away faster, and the metafeats are only an advantage if you're planning on making your DM cry.
Archangel_Arcanis
05-03-07, 02:10 PM there is still two more things that casters have over manifesters in the direct damage market:1)auto scaling of to caster level at NO EXTRA COST, 2) in general the spells are better for the spell level this is not an absolute but you give up something to chose which element.

edit: not counting meta for spells is one sided since you did include one meta for psi, i know they are harder to use than with casters but still.
InkBlot
05-03-07, 02:28 PM Auto scalling is what I was refering to with stamina. Because of autoscalling, their lower cost spells area as good as their highest cost spells. On average they deal more damage per virtual power point spent, but that's misleading.

10d6+10 is 10 points more damage than just 10d6 wether it costs more or not. Psions output damage faster - they kill the badguys faster.

And there are a couple psionic power which deal direct damage and autoscale like a spell would. Telekinetic Thrust, for example, moves your enemy 10 feet per manifester level. Hurl the enemy straight up, and that's 1d6 falling damage per manifester level. Of course, this isn't such a good example since it only works well outdoors, but it's the only one I could remember off the top of my head.

Also, compare energy missle (2nd level) to scorching ray (2nd level). At 11th level scorching ray can target up to 3 creatures 50 feet away for 4d6 fire damage each. At 4th level, energy missle can target up to 5 creatures 140 feet away for 4d6 + 4 fire damage each.

The only direct damage power which jumps out at me as being delayed in power as compared the equivilant spell is energy ball. Energy ball can be learned only one level later than fireball. Until then, you have to make due with energy missle (which only slightly worse than energy ball in range and the max number of enemies it can hit -- the damage is the same).
Boondoggle
05-04-07, 12:19 AM While psions may not be able to match the raw damage output of a suitably optimized arcane caster, versatility is what defeats enemies and overcomes obstacles, not just a bigger stick. This is why psionics tends to work better for the role of a blaster.
Lina_Inverse
05-04-07, 01:19 AM Why are we even discussing blasting at all? It's still utterly worthless for arcanists and psionists.

Telepaths are the worst.
Followed by kinetics.
The rest i don't know how to rank.
InkBlot
05-04-07, 02:01 AM We were discussing blasting in the context of a hypothetical situation in which you want to play a psion, but there's already a wizard or cleric in the party. Since psions are marginally better at blasting than a wizard or cleric, and since wizards and clerics are better at everything else, a psion in the hypothetical situation might want to take up the role of a blaster.
Rusher
05-04-07, 03:42 AM Since psionics has instantaneous creation powers which deal damage with no save and no power resistance.

I am not going to debate this whole issue. There are links at the top of the page that cover all this, and more.

But the info quoted above is a weakness of Psionics over Spellcasting. Metacreativity powers are exactly like the Orb spells of casters.
Except they don't cut thru DR like orbs do.

Just wanted to point that out.
InkBlot
05-04-07, 11:33 AM Orbs ignore DR. Crystal powers ignore Energy Resistance. Orbs effect a single target. Most of the Crystal powers effect an area. I think the Crystal powers are at least even with the Orb spells.

edit: Feel free to ignore me if you don't want a debate. Honestly, I thought psionic's slight advantage in blasting was self evident, so I would never of talked so much about it if I hadn't been asked to explain my viewpoint.
periscope
05-04-07, 11:51 AM the crystal powers arent affected by DR. They are powers, they are just described as piercing. Thats why crystal shard is a great investment. The only thing you have to worry about with it is SR/PR and a high touch ac.
InkBlot
05-04-07, 11:58 AM the crystal powers arent affected by DR. They are powers, they are just described as piercing. Thats why crystal shard is a great investment. The only thing you have to worry about with it is SR/PR and a high touch ac.

Crystal powers are affected by DR according to Complete Psionics. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming that this ruling was one of the few things CPsi got right. Either way, it still gets around energy resistance and spell resistance.

Crystal shard ignores power resistance and spell resistance. It's power resistance line reads "Power Resistance: No."
Lazigothi
05-04-07, 12:37 PM The wording of the question with "usefulness" is interesting. It's not which type is "stronger." All of the variations have their setbacks, so it's my opinion that they're all equally useful. As DM, it's my job to create an interesting story for players, and I could make all variations work equally. I always ask players what they want for the campaigns, what motivates the characters, and how they see themselves in the party in the campaign.

As a player, I've had absolute fun playing all the variations. I've likewise had some wonderful campaigns to be in where I was allowed to participate in the story and provide an effective asset to the party.
PhaedrusXY
05-04-07, 02:22 PM Shapers, Telepaths, and Egoists. Not necessarily in that order. :D The order really depends on what you want your character to do, but I do feel that those are definitely the most powerful and useful disciplines overall.

With Expanded Knowledge, anyone can easily access a power from any other list without DM fiat, except the 9th level powers. The only difference is when they can access it. So in order to compare which is "best", I think you should look at powers that are a) so good that you don't want to wait an extra 2-3 levels to get them, b) exceptionally good 9th level powers, and c) things that you get from the discipline besides their power lists.

The Shaper gets Use Psionic Device as a class skill, which is easily the best non-power based "perk" of any discipline, especially if you have a psicrystal (and who doesn't?). The Egoist gets Fusion, which can be incredible when used wisely, and Metamorphosis, which is so good you may not want to delay getting it for 2 levels. The telepath has several good powers at all levels, and is the "archtypical" psionicist.
InkBlot
05-04-07, 03:25 PM The telepath has several good powers at all levels, and is the "archtypical" psionicist.
For me, the archtypal psychic is the seer. Like the telepath, the seer also has too many good powers to get them all with Expanded Knowledge. However, I could easily see myself playing a seer with EK (read thoughts). I can't realy imagine playing a telepath with EK (sensitivity to psychic impressions).
periscope
05-04-07, 06:54 PM Crystal powers are affected by DR according to Complete Psionics. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming that this ruling was one of the few things CPsi got right. Either way, it still gets around energy resistance and spell resistance.

Crystal shard ignores power resistance and spell resistance. It's power resistance line reads "Power Resistance: No."

We dont use Comp Psi we've heard you'd keep it in the bathroom, but not for reading.

I was wrong on the PR/SR Im sorry.

I think its seer, you know whats coming. Clairvoyant sense is incredibly useful especially if you need a "whats on the other side of that door or around the corner" view.
Boondoggle
05-06-07, 02:46 AM Yeah, the CPsi ruling about metacrativity & DR is about on par with the nerf to astral construct: both changes are needless nerfs and contradict how everything similar is handled (magic damage bypasses DR, period).

Oh, and clairvoyant sense at will is only a 24,000 gp Thrid Eye: Sense away. Not a power I would advise taking without the option for a later reformation.
Eikre
05-06-07, 03:33 AM (magic damage bypasses DR, period).

The question is, I believe, is it magic damage? Or, in other words, are you creating a series of magical crystals to barrage your opponent, or are you magically creating a series of crystals to barrage him? The rationale behind DR to Crystals applies if we presume that, while magical in origin, the crystals themselves are not much more remarkable than glittering shrapnel.

Mechanically, we wonder if the Slashing damage template can only apply to Physical Damage. If that's a given, then the crystals are physical by default; no notice has been given to the contrary.

And last, of course: If DR doesn't apply... Then why the hell even bother? There's nothing else in the game that's affected, for better or worse, by Slashing damage. At least in this case; I mean, it's not like you can make the crystals out of Blue Ice.

Balance-wise, I think it's fine to leave the crystals as they are. But... What the hell?
ShaRd2000
05-06-07, 07:12 AM Seer is for tracking people down to kill/acquire something from, and various other information gathering tools/powers. They can turn any situation to your favor just out of the strategy of knowing what's going to happen, and how to defeat it.

But seriously, metafaculty is insane. No save, can defeat all divination obscuring effects, (except epic ones) and you find out just about everything tied to the subject in question.

I can just imagine a 17th-20th level seer at the head of an assassin's guild. Metafac/remote view target, send cronies. Dead. Profit.
Jaid
05-06-07, 10:50 AM The question is, I believe, is it magic damage? Or, in other words, are you creating a series of magical crystals to barrage your opponent, or are you magically creating a series of crystals to barrage him? The rationale behind DR to Crystals applies if we presume that, while magical in origin, the crystals themselves are not much more remarkable than glittering shrapnel.

Mechanically, we wonder if the Slashing damage template can only apply to Physical Damage. If that's a given, then the crystals are physical by default; no notice has been given to the contrary.

And last, of course: If DR doesn't apply... Then why the hell even bother? There's nothing else in the game that's affected, for better or worse, by Slashing damage. At least in this case; I mean, it's not like you can make the crystals out of Blue Ice.

Balance-wise, I think it's fine to leave the crystals as they are. But... What the hell?
actually, there is an explicit ruling that magic spells bypass DR, period. it's in the online FAQ. it was completely contradicted by complete psionic's ruling that psionic powers can be effected by DR, and is quite upsetting when you consider no similar restriction was placed on magic.
AntiDjinn
05-06-07, 11:53 AM What, i nyour opinion, is the most useful Discipline for the Psion class?
Have to ask: Did you mean discipline (seer, shaper, telepath, egoist,...) or discipline (telepathy, metacreativity, psychoportation,...)?

If by "useful" you mean "utility" not raw power then it is complex. Metacreativity in general (and the shaper specifically) provides the most utility. The shaper travels light because he can make what he (and the rest of the party) needs on the spot. Other disciplines have their utility powers as well, but one centered on metacreativity will generally prove useful to the party as a whole.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voran_Illezou 05-02-07, 09:14 PM	What, i nyour opinion, is the most useful Discipline for the Psion class?
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-02-07, 09:16 PM	If it's just a straight opinion that you want, as opposed to an analysis/comparison, my pick is the telepathy discipline.
JulesCARV 05-02-07, 09:25 PM	I think the most broadly held view is that telepathy, psychometabolism, and metacreativity are the "stronger" disciplines, and psychokinesis, clairsentience, and psychoportation are the "weaker" disciplines. (not sure about clairsentience)
InkBlot 05-02-07, 09:45 PM	It entirely depends on what role you need to fulfill in your party. However, generaly, it seems that the disciplines could be ranked as such for overall usefullness (from most to least useful): Telepath - everything is under your control, except the undead and constructs Shaper - always have the right tool for the job Egoist - always be the right tool for the job Seer - always know what the the job is Nomad - always be able to get to the job Kineticist - singe the job and make it angry at you Of course this is situational. In a party without a true tank, an egoist or shaper is better. In an adventure involving lots of travel, terrain obstacles, and planehopping a nomad is best. In a game with lots of political intrigue, or just a recurring enemy that keeps giving you the slip, a seer will always have an edge. If there's a spellcaster in the party, you may want to be a kineticist so the caster doesn't have to waste slots blasting (which psionics is better at anyway).
BloodSpill 05-03-07, 08:26 AM	If there's a spellcaster in the party, you may want to be a kineticist so the caster doesn't have to waste slots blasting (which psionics is better at anyway). Since when?
InkBlot 05-03-07, 01:51 PM	Since you can choose which energy type you want to use on the fly, and without having to learn a new power for each type. That ball of fire bounced right off the monster? Try a ball of electricity! Cone of cold catching your allies too? Try a line of cold! Since fire and cold powers deal +1 point of damage per die. If one wizard had a fireball that did 10d8 damage, and another wizard had a fireball that did 10d6 damage, which one would you rather learn fireball from? Since electricity damage gives you a +2 to the save DC, +2 to hit, and +2 to ML checks to overcome power resistance. Most enemies carry metal on them. Since sonic resistance is very rare. Since psionics has instantaneous creation powers which deal damage with no save and no power resistance. Since you can use energy conversion + a campfire to turn your psicrystal into a raygun. Since Burrowing Power (a feat which there still isn't an arcane version of, AFAIK) lets you kill creatures safely from behind a wall. The only thing that spellcasting has over psionics, as far as blasting goes, is stamina and metafeats. Stamina won't make the baddies go away faster, and the metafeats are only an advantage if you're planning on making your DM cry.
Archangel_Arcanis 05-03-07, 02:10 PM	there is still two more things that casters have over manifesters in the direct damage market:1)auto scaling of to caster level at NO EXTRA COST, 2) in general the spells are better for the spell level this is not an absolute but you give up something to chose which element. edit: not counting meta for spells is one sided since you did include one meta for psi, i know they are harder to use than with casters but still.
InkBlot 05-03-07, 02:28 PM	Auto scalling is what I was refering to with stamina. Because of autoscalling, their lower cost spells area as good as their highest cost spells. On average they deal more damage per virtual power point spent, but that's misleading. 10d6+10 is 10 points more damage than just 10d6 wether it costs more or not. Psions output damage faster - they kill the badguys faster. And there are a couple psionic power which deal direct damage and autoscale like a spell would. Telekinetic Thrust, for example, moves your enemy 10 feet per manifester level. Hurl the enemy straight up, and that's 1d6 falling damage per manifester level. Of course, this isn't such a good example since it only works well outdoors, but it's the only one I could remember off the top of my head. Also, compare energy missle (2nd level) to scorching ray (2nd level). At 11th level scorching ray can target up to 3 creatures 50 feet away for 4d6 fire damage each. At 4th level, energy missle can target up to 5 creatures 140 feet away for 4d6 + 4 fire damage each. The only direct damage power which jumps out at me as being delayed in power as compared the equivilant spell is energy ball. Energy ball can be learned only one level later than fireball. Until then, you have to make due with energy missle (which only slightly worse than energy ball in range and the max number of enemies it can hit -- the damage is the same).
Boondoggle 05-04-07, 12:19 AM	While psions may not be able to match the raw damage output of a suitably optimized arcane caster, versatility is what defeats enemies and overcomes obstacles, not just a bigger stick. This is why psionics tends to work better for the role of a blaster.
Lina_Inverse 05-04-07, 01:19 AM	Why are we even discussing blasting at all? It's still utterly worthless for arcanists and psionists. Telepaths are the worst. Followed by kinetics. The rest i don't know how to rank.
InkBlot 05-04-07, 02:01 AM	We were discussing blasting in the context of a hypothetical situation in which you want to play a psion, but there's already a wizard or cleric in the party. Since psions are marginally better at blasting than a wizard or cleric, and since wizards and clerics are better at everything else, a psion in the hypothetical situation might want to take up the role of a blaster.
Rusher 05-04-07, 03:42 AM	Since psionics has instantaneous creation powers which deal damage with no save and no power resistance. I am not going to debate this whole issue. There are links at the top of the page that cover all this, and more. But the info quoted above is a weakness of Psionics over Spellcasting. Metacreativity powers are exactly like the Orb spells of casters. Except they don't cut thru DR like orbs do. Just wanted to point that out.
InkBlot 05-04-07, 11:33 AM	Orbs ignore DR. Crystal powers ignore Energy Resistance. Orbs effect a single target. Most of the Crystal powers effect an area. I think the Crystal powers are at least even with the Orb spells. edit: Feel free to ignore me if you don't want a debate. Honestly, I thought psionic's slight advantage in blasting was self evident, so I would never of talked so much about it if I hadn't been asked to explain my viewpoint.
periscope 05-04-07, 11:51 AM	the crystal powers arent affected by DR. They are powers, they are just described as piercing. Thats why crystal shard is a great investment. The only thing you have to worry about with it is SR/PR and a high touch ac.
InkBlot 05-04-07, 11:58 AM	the crystal powers arent affected by DR. They are powers, they are just described as piercing. Thats why crystal shard is a great investment. The only thing you have to worry about with it is SR/PR and a high touch ac. Crystal powers are affected by DR according to Complete Psionics. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming that this ruling was one of the few things CPsi got right. Either way, it still gets around energy resistance and spell resistance. Crystal shard ignores power resistance and spell resistance. It's power resistance line reads "Power Resistance: No."
Lazigothi 05-04-07, 12:37 PM	The wording of the question with "usefulness" is interesting. It's not which type is "stronger." All of the variations have their setbacks, so it's my opinion that they're all equally useful. As DM, it's my job to create an interesting story for players, and I could make all variations work equally. I always ask players what they want for the campaigns, what motivates the characters, and how they see themselves in the party in the campaign. As a player, I've had absolute fun playing all the variations. I've likewise had some wonderful campaigns to be in where I was allowed to participate in the story and provide an effective asset to the party.
PhaedrusXY 05-04-07, 02:22 PM	Shapers, Telepaths, and Egoists. Not necessarily in that order. :D The order really depends on what you want your character to do, but I do feel that those are definitely the most powerful and useful disciplines overall. With Expanded Knowledge, anyone can easily access a power from any other list without DM fiat, except the 9th level powers. The only difference is when they can access it. So in order to compare which is "best", I think you should look at powers that are a) so good that you don't want to wait an extra 2-3 levels to get them, b) exceptionally good 9th level powers, and c) things that you get from the discipline besides their power lists. The Shaper gets Use Psionic Device as a class skill, which is easily the best non-power based "perk" of any discipline, especially if you have a psicrystal (and who doesn't?). The Egoist gets Fusion, which can be incredible when used wisely, and Metamorphosis, which is so good you may not want to delay getting it for 2 levels. The telepath has several good powers at all levels, and is the "archtypical" psionicist.
InkBlot 05-04-07, 03:25 PM	The telepath has several good powers at all levels, and is the "archtypical" psionicist. For me, the archtypal psychic is the seer. Like the telepath, the seer also has too many good powers to get them all with Expanded Knowledge. However, I could easily see myself playing a seer with EK (read thoughts). I can't realy imagine playing a telepath with EK (sensitivity to psychic impressions).
periscope 05-04-07, 06:54 PM	Crystal powers are affected by DR according to Complete Psionics. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm assuming that this ruling was one of the few things CPsi got right. Either way, it still gets around energy resistance and spell resistance. Crystal shard ignores power resistance and spell resistance. It's power resistance line reads "Power Resistance: No." We dont use Comp Psi we've heard you'd keep it in the bathroom, but not for reading. I was wrong on the PR/SR Im sorry. I think its seer, you know whats coming. Clairvoyant sense is incredibly useful especially if you need a "whats on the other side of that door or around the corner" view.
Boondoggle 05-06-07, 02:46 AM	Yeah, the CPsi ruling about metacrativity & DR is about on par with the nerf to astral construct: both changes are needless nerfs and contradict how everything similar is handled (magic damage bypasses DR, period). Oh, and clairvoyant sense at will is only a 24,000 gp Thrid Eye: Sense away. Not a power I would advise taking without the option for a later reformation.
Eikre 05-06-07, 03:33 AM	(magic damage bypasses DR, period). The question is, I believe, is it magic damage? Or, in other words, are you creating a series of magical crystals to barrage your opponent, or are you magically creating a series of crystals to barrage him? The rationale behind DR to Crystals applies if we presume that, while magical in origin, the crystals themselves are not much more remarkable than glittering shrapnel. Mechanically, we wonder if the Slashing damage template can only apply to Physical Damage. If that's a given, then the crystals are physical by default; no notice has been given to the contrary. And last, of course: If DR doesn't apply... Then why the hell even bother? There's nothing else in the game that's affected, for better or worse, by Slashing damage. At least in this case; I mean, it's not like you can make the crystals out of Blue Ice. Balance-wise, I think it's fine to leave the crystals as they are. But... What the hell?
ShaRd2000 05-06-07, 07:12 AM	Seer is for tracking people down to kill/acquire something from, and various other information gathering tools/powers. They can turn any situation to your favor just out of the strategy of knowing what's going to happen, and how to defeat it. But seriously, metafaculty is insane. No save, can defeat all divination obscuring effects, (except epic ones) and you find out just about everything tied to the subject in question. I can just imagine a 17th-20th level seer at the head of an assassin's guild. Metafac/remote view target, send cronies. Dead. Profit.
Jaid 05-06-07, 10:50 AM	The question is, I believe, is it magic damage? Or, in other words, are you creating a series of magical crystals to barrage your opponent, or are you magically creating a series of crystals to barrage him? The rationale behind DR to Crystals applies if we presume that, while magical in origin, the crystals themselves are not much more remarkable than glittering shrapnel. Mechanically, we wonder if the Slashing damage template can only apply to Physical Damage. If that's a given, then the crystals are physical by default; no notice has been given to the contrary. And last, of course: If DR doesn't apply... Then why the hell even bother? There's nothing else in the game that's affected, for better or worse, by Slashing damage. At least in this case; I mean, it's not like you can make the crystals out of Blue Ice. Balance-wise, I think it's fine to leave the crystals as they are. But... What the hell? actually, there is an explicit ruling that magic spells bypass DR, period. it's in the online FAQ. it was completely contradicted by complete psionic's ruling that psionic powers can be effected by DR, and is quite upsetting when you consider no similar restriction was placed on magic.
AntiDjinn 05-06-07, 11:53 AM	What, i nyour opinion, is the most useful Discipline for the Psion class? Have to ask: Did you mean discipline (seer, shaper, telepath, egoist,...) or discipline (telepathy, metacreativity, psychoportation,...)? If by "useful" you mean "utility" not raw power then it is complex. Metacreativity in general (and the shaper specifically) provides the most utility. The shaper travels light because he can make what he (and the rest of the party) needs on the spot. Other disciplines have their utility powers as well, but one centered on metacreativity will generally prove useful to the party as a whole.