Disrupting Manifesting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disrupting Manifesting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koda77
05-18-07, 03:06 AM Recently my DM made a ruling that manifesting could not ber eady against as there was nothing to show and thus take an action. Im all for psionics but this one just irks me the wrong way. has anyone else run across this?

or how could i give a valid arguement in my defense?
Millenia
05-18-07, 04:29 AM Psionic Displays (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display) provide telltale signs of manifesting, though from the description they only occur when the manifesting is finished.

One can also argue that manifesters look constipated or really focusing their attention on something (like staring at that guy whose head is about to explode...), thus revealing that they are manifesting.
calronmoonflower
05-18-07, 04:46 AM Recently my DM made a ruling that manifesting could not ber eady against as there was nothing to show and thus take an action. Im all for psionics but this one just irks me the wrong way. has anyone else run across this?

or how could i give a valid arguement in my defense?

Page 58 of the Expanded Psionics handbook under display in the fourth paragraph says that manifesting a power even when it doesn't have a display provokes and attack of opportunity.
munin
05-18-07, 11:14 AM A readied action is only triggered when you notice the triggering event. An attack of opportunity occurs, not because your enemy noticed the display, but because an opportunity becomes available to attempt an additional attack due to you being distracted from your defense.

The game mechanism of actions simulates the important events in a battle, but implied is that there is a constant dodging and parrying which only has real results when an action takes place. An attack of opportunity occurs when you take an action that lessens your ability to dodge and parry, thus allowing an additional attack to get through.

When you manifest a power, your enemy gets an AOO, not because he's noticed "oh, he's manifesting a power", but because your dodging and parrying has become weaker while you are concentrating on manifesting. You can make a Concentration check to manifest defensively (ie. concentrate on dodging and parrying at the same time that you manifest a power), which removes the opportunity.

So that's why manifesting a power without a display still invokes an AOO (unless manifested defensively). But you can't ready an action against something you can't notice. Manifesting a power is a purely mental action, like concentrating on a math problem. You can't ready an action for "when he does addition in his head".
InkBlot
05-18-07, 11:39 AM A readied action is only triggered when you notice the triggering event. An attack of opportunity occurs, not because an enemy noticed an opportunity, but because an opportunity becomes available.
No, you do need to notice that the opportunity is available. That's why you can't take attacks of opportunity on things you can't see clearly (anything with concealment).

A person readying to attack when the enemy manifests a power will have to guess wether or not that far-away gaze is from concentrating on a power, or concentrating on some other ability. You might accidently attack when the enemy is only refocusing her mind.

Page 58 of The Expanded Psionics Handbook makes it clear that you can discern, visualy, when a psionicist is concentrating on manifesting even if she dispenses with the displays.
munin
05-18-07, 01:29 PM ...you can't take attacks of opportunity on things you can't see clearly (anything with concealment).

That only applies to total concealment (you can't see them at all). If you can't see your opponent, you're not dodging and parrying, you're thrashing "blindly".
Lycanthromancer
05-18-07, 01:36 PM Which makes Greater Concealing Amorpha an incredible deal. Can't take AoOs, can't be targeted by anything but ray and AoE effects...Wow.
Matthew77
05-18-07, 01:49 PM When you manifest a power, your enemy gets an AOO, not because he's noticed "oh, he's manifesting a power", but because your dodging and parrying has become weaker while you are concentrating on manifesting.
So you can't notice that someone's "dodging and parrying has become weaker" ?

"hmm.. last time that guy stopped jumping around, Bob's head exploded. Maybe I should whack him next time he holds still for a couple seconds."

You can make a Concentration check to manifest defensively (ie. concentrate on dodging and parrying at the same time that you manifest a power), which removes the opportunity.

"This guy's still ducking my blows, but he's not swinging back at me anymore, and he's got that funny look on his face again, I better whack him just to make sure, 'cause I'd hate to get brains all over the inside of my best helmet."

I think that fluff-wise, it should be obvious when someone is concentrating enough to manifest a power, even if the only clues are the fact that he's not doing anything else (like moving or attacking).

Game mechanics-wise, it also seems best not to remove one of the few remaining anti-manifester tactics (the readied action).
munin
05-18-07, 03:56 PM So you can't notice that someone's "dodging and parrying has become weaker" ?

You can notice it, and probably do, but that's not the reason you get an AOO. You get an AOO because there's diminished defense, not because you notice there's diminished defense. I admit it's a slight difference.

...I better whack him just to make sure...

You're continually whacking at him (seriously, try whacking something only once every six seconds). The effect of all those whacks are approximated by a single attack roll (for BAB < +6), but a distracted defense allows an additional attack roll (which is different than saying an additional whack).

I think that fluff-wise, it should be obvious when someone is concentrating enough to manifest a power, even if the only clues are the fact that he's not doing anything else (like moving or attacking).

A manifester doesn't stop doing everything else, he's just somewhat distracted, the same way you can keep dodging even while you drink a potion (after all, you don't lose your Dex bonus to AC). I can do math problems in my head while I'm driving, but I'm probably not driving as well as I could (I don't have heroic ranks in Concentration to do both well simultaneously).

It's possible we have different role-playing interpretations of what happens when you manifest a power. We don't disagree on the mechanics of AOOs, just the observability of manifestations and its implications for readied actions. I think manifestations are a purely mental action which are not observable, though they do distract the manifester enough to reduce his defenses unless he manifests defensively.

Suppose you've taken a psionicist prisoner and you're guarding him, and you've been told to stick him if he manifests (you've readied an action), so you're watching for the "vacant stare". What if he closes his eyes and lies perfectly still? (yes, can't target, etc., but can do other things, like teleport himself, and might have some other sense allowing him to target) How would you know he's manifesting and not doing addition in his head? If you can't tell the difference, you can't ready an action that depends on you being able to differentiate between a triggering event and a non-triggering event. Same thing in combat... until the manifestation goes off, you can't tell if he's manifesting, doing addition, or praying, and thus you can't ready an action that depends on being able to differentiate between the possibilities.

You can ready an action against a spell casting, because casting a spell is a very blatant action involving speech, hand gestures, pinches of sulfur, etc. It's usually pretty obvious. But manifesting powers is not, because they're "purely mental" actions.
AntiDjinn
05-18-07, 05:03 PM Attacks of opportunity can occur when you threaten a target's position, you are capable of making the attack (have not used all your AoO's for the turn, and are not otherwise prevented from making attacks) and the target does something that triggers an AoO. The fact that it stops bobbing and weaving is not important because there is no requirement for it to have been bobbing and weaving beforehand.

Example: You approach a guard. He orders you to halt and identify yourself and draws his weapon so that he threatens you but does not attack. You attempt to manifest Charm (which you should have done before you were in the area he threatens). He gets an attack of opportunity. This is not because you stopped bobbing and weaving (you weren't even in combat) but because you took an action (concentrating, not on the defensive) which entitles him to one. He does not know you were trying to manifest Charm, he does not even know you were trying to manifest a power at all. He just knows you did something unusual and it was an opening to try to take your head off. Note: He is not required to take the attack of opportunity; it really depends on how spooked or belligerent he is. But even if he doesn't avail himself of the free swing it was there and he is aware of it because he made a choice not to take it. Moral here: Avoid threatened areas when possible. AoOs are not even an issue if you are not in a threatened area.

Example: You have tripped someone and are standing over him with a weapon drawn. Rather than attack, you simply order him to stay down. He is not bobbing and weaving (he is prone). You are not attacking, so he is not dodging anything, though he is threatened. If he stands up in your threatened area you get an AoO because that action triggers one. It has nothing to do with an attack that might have missed connecting instead because no attacks were occurring before your foe took that specific action.
Zankue
05-18-07, 05:08 PM Actually the manifester them self just concentrate with a distant look in their eye. The displays such as auditory is what gives it away, but it also says that you can get rid of the display, concentration DC 15 + power lvl I think...
CrimsonDeath
05-18-07, 05:19 PM If you're guarding a prisoner, it's unlikely that you can ready an action, since you can only ready actions in combat. (If you are in combat, you probably have something better to do than ready an action against your prisoner.)

And how about casting spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components? (They exist, thanks to Metamagic feats. Silent Blur, for example.) Can you not ready attacks against that either?
Lycanthromancer
05-18-07, 05:48 PM You can ready an action outside of combat.

For instance, you're guarding a door, and you've readied an action to fire a crossbow at the first thing that enters the door.

See?
Zankue
05-18-07, 06:00 PM If you're guarding a prisoner, it's unlikely that you can ready an action, since you can only ready actions in combat. (If you are in combat, you probably have something better to do than ready an action against your prisoner.)

And how about casting spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components? (They exist, thanks to Metamagic feats. Silent Blur, for example.) Can you not ready attacks against that either?

um... this is psionics... they never use somatic, verbal, or material. Psionics uses displays Material, olfactory, auditory, and several others. As a second thought they do use material... lol not the way spell casters do though.

For example material shoots ectoplasm in a 10 ft radius that disipates almost instantly
auditory makes a humming noise while you manifest u can control the sound to be as loud as several people cheering or so quite that it requires a listen check DC... 10 for every one in a 10 ft radius. As explained earlier the manifester just has a strange far away look away look in their eyes as they manifest and that is what gives the AoA.
munin
05-18-07, 10:45 PM So if I'm lying there completely still with my eyes closed and I manifest a power and dispense with the displays, how does the guard know I've manifested a power? From a role-playing perspective I mean.
IceFractal
05-18-07, 11:05 PM Interesting point - I'd say that manifesting a power while doing something (talking, dodging in combat, juggling) would be noticable, but manifesting a power while already sitting still wouldn't (if you hide the display, obviously).

Now if you really wanted to manifest a power in combat I'd rule that you could concentrate for no reason (provoking an AoO), which would be indistinguishable from actually manifesting one, so readied actions would go off then, after which you could manifest the real power. Of course, you get hit twice, but that's what Vigor is for.
CrimsonDeath
05-20-07, 12:33 AM um... this is psionics... they never use somatic, verbal, or material.
I know that this is the "Psionics" board. But I was, for that one paragraph, talking about spellcasting, which does include somatic, verbal, and material components. Presumably, a power with no displays should (from the perspective of an observer) be indistinguishable from a spell with no components. If a character could detect and react to one event, he could detect and react to the other event. For that matter, spell-like abilities have no components or displays. Is it possible to detect and react to a spell-like ability that is used defensively?

In short, the purpose of my post was to describe the can of worms that the ruling in question was opening. I was perfectly aware the entire time that psionic powers (which I wasn't even talking about) don't have verbal, somatic, or material components.

You can ready an action outside of combat.

For instance, you're guarding a door, and you've readied an action to fire a crossbow at the first thing that enters the door.

See?
Combat is the only situation in which you are explicitly allowed to ready an action. "Ready" is part of the "Special Initiative Actions" section of the "Combat" chapter of the PHB. The "Special Initiative Actions" section claims to present two ways to alter your place in initiative; those two ways are "Delay" and "Ready". Outside combat, there's no initiative order to change your place within, so by RAW, there's no way to ready an action. If your group is happy readying actions outside combat, though, I suppose you can go right on doing so (although I wouldn't be surprised if the DM tried it once in a while).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koda77 05-18-07, 03:06 AM	Recently my DM made a ruling that manifesting could not ber eady against as there was nothing to show and thus take an action. Im all for psionics but this one just irks me the wrong way. has anyone else run across this? or how could i give a valid arguement in my defense?
Millenia 05-18-07, 04:29 AM	Psionic Displays (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display) provide telltale signs of manifesting, though from the description they only occur when the manifesting is finished. One can also argue that manifesters look constipated or really focusing their attention on something (like staring at that guy whose head is about to explode...), thus revealing that they are manifesting.
calronmoonflower 05-18-07, 04:46 AM	Recently my DM made a ruling that manifesting could not ber eady against as there was nothing to show and thus take an action. Im all for psionics but this one just irks me the wrong way. has anyone else run across this? or how could i give a valid arguement in my defense? Page 58 of the Expanded Psionics handbook under display in the fourth paragraph says that manifesting a power even when it doesn't have a display provokes and attack of opportunity.
munin 05-18-07, 11:14 AM	A readied action is only triggered when you notice the triggering event. An attack of opportunity occurs, not because your enemy noticed the display, but because an opportunity becomes available to attempt an additional attack due to you being distracted from your defense. The game mechanism of actions simulates the important events in a battle, but implied is that there is a constant dodging and parrying which only has real results when an action takes place. An attack of opportunity occurs when you take an action that lessens your ability to dodge and parry, thus allowing an additional attack to get through. When you manifest a power, your enemy gets an AOO, not because he's noticed "oh, he's manifesting a power", but because your dodging and parrying has become weaker while you are concentrating on manifesting. You can make a Concentration check to manifest defensively (ie. concentrate on dodging and parrying at the same time that you manifest a power), which removes the opportunity. So that's why manifesting a power without a display still invokes an AOO (unless manifested defensively). But you can't ready an action against something you can't notice. Manifesting a power is a purely mental action, like concentrating on a math problem. You can't ready an action for "when he does addition in his head".
InkBlot 05-18-07, 11:39 AM	A readied action is only triggered when you notice the triggering event. An attack of opportunity occurs, not because an enemy noticed an opportunity, but because an opportunity becomes available. No, you do need to notice that the opportunity is available. That's why you can't take attacks of opportunity on things you can't see clearly (anything with concealment). A person readying to attack when the enemy manifests a power will have to guess wether or not that far-away gaze is from concentrating on a power, or concentrating on some other ability. You might accidently attack when the enemy is only refocusing her mind. Page 58 of The Expanded Psionics Handbook makes it clear that you can discern, visualy, when a psionicist is concentrating on manifesting even if she dispenses with the displays.
munin 05-18-07, 01:29 PM	...you can't take attacks of opportunity on things you can't see clearly (anything with concealment). That only applies to total concealment (you can't see them at all). If you can't see your opponent, you're not dodging and parrying, you're thrashing "blindly".
Lycanthromancer 05-18-07, 01:36 PM	Which makes Greater Concealing Amorpha an incredible deal. Can't take AoOs, can't be targeted by anything but ray and AoE effects...Wow.
Matthew77 05-18-07, 01:49 PM	When you manifest a power, your enemy gets an AOO, not because he's noticed "oh, he's manifesting a power", but because your dodging and parrying has become weaker while you are concentrating on manifesting. So you can't notice that someone's "dodging and parrying has become weaker" ? "hmm.. last time that guy stopped jumping around, Bob's head exploded. Maybe I should whack him next time he holds still for a couple seconds." You can make a Concentration check to manifest defensively (ie. concentrate on dodging and parrying at the same time that you manifest a power), which removes the opportunity. "This guy's still ducking my blows, but he's not swinging back at me anymore, and he's got that funny look on his face again, I better whack him just to make sure, 'cause I'd hate to get brains all over the inside of my best helmet." I think that fluff-wise, it should be obvious when someone is concentrating enough to manifest a power, even if the only clues are the fact that he's not doing anything else (like moving or attacking). Game mechanics-wise, it also seems best not to remove one of the few remaining anti-manifester tactics (the readied action).
munin 05-18-07, 03:56 PM	So you can't notice that someone's "dodging and parrying has become weaker" ? You can notice it, and probably do, but that's not the reason you get an AOO. You get an AOO because there's diminished defense, not because you notice there's diminished defense. I admit it's a slight difference. ...I better whack him just to make sure... You're continually whacking at him (seriously, try whacking something only once every six seconds). The effect of all those whacks are approximated by a single attack roll (for BAB < +6), but a distracted defense allows an additional attack roll (which is different than saying an additional whack). I think that fluff-wise, it should be obvious when someone is concentrating enough to manifest a power, even if the only clues are the fact that he's not doing anything else (like moving or attacking). A manifester doesn't stop doing everything else, he's just somewhat distracted, the same way you can keep dodging even while you drink a potion (after all, you don't lose your Dex bonus to AC). I can do math problems in my head while I'm driving, but I'm probably not driving as well as I could (I don't have heroic ranks in Concentration to do both well simultaneously). It's possible we have different role-playing interpretations of what happens when you manifest a power. We don't disagree on the mechanics of AOOs, just the observability of manifestations and its implications for readied actions. I think manifestations are a purely mental action which are not observable, though they do distract the manifester enough to reduce his defenses unless he manifests defensively. Suppose you've taken a psionicist prisoner and you're guarding him, and you've been told to stick him if he manifests (you've readied an action), so you're watching for the "vacant stare". What if he closes his eyes and lies perfectly still? (yes, can't target, etc., but can do other things, like teleport himself, and might have some other sense allowing him to target) How would you know he's manifesting and not doing addition in his head? If you can't tell the difference, you can't ready an action that depends on you being able to differentiate between a triggering event and a non-triggering event. Same thing in combat... until the manifestation goes off, you can't tell if he's manifesting, doing addition, or praying, and thus you can't ready an action that depends on being able to differentiate between the possibilities. You can ready an action against a spell casting, because casting a spell is a very blatant action involving speech, hand gestures, pinches of sulfur, etc. It's usually pretty obvious. But manifesting powers is not, because they're "purely mental" actions.
AntiDjinn 05-18-07, 05:03 PM	Attacks of opportunity can occur when you threaten a target's position, you are capable of making the attack (have not used all your AoO's for the turn, and are not otherwise prevented from making attacks) and the target does something that triggers an AoO. The fact that it stops bobbing and weaving is not important because there is no requirement for it to have been bobbing and weaving beforehand. Example: You approach a guard. He orders you to halt and identify yourself and draws his weapon so that he threatens you but does not attack. You attempt to manifest Charm (which you should have done before you were in the area he threatens). He gets an attack of opportunity. This is not because you stopped bobbing and weaving (you weren't even in combat) but because you took an action (concentrating, not on the defensive) which entitles him to one. He does not know you were trying to manifest Charm, he does not even know you were trying to manifest a power at all. He just knows you did something unusual and it was an opening to try to take your head off. Note: He is not required to take the attack of opportunity; it really depends on how spooked or belligerent he is. But even if he doesn't avail himself of the free swing it was there and he is aware of it because he made a choice not to take it. Moral here: Avoid threatened areas when possible. AoOs are not even an issue if you are not in a threatened area. Example: You have tripped someone and are standing over him with a weapon drawn. Rather than attack, you simply order him to stay down. He is not bobbing and weaving (he is prone). You are not attacking, so he is not dodging anything, though he is threatened. If he stands up in your threatened area you get an AoO because that action triggers one. It has nothing to do with an attack that might have missed connecting instead because no attacks were occurring before your foe took that specific action.
Zankue 05-18-07, 05:08 PM	Actually the manifester them self just concentrate with a distant look in their eye. The displays such as auditory is what gives it away, but it also says that you can get rid of the display, concentration DC 15 + power lvl I think...
CrimsonDeath 05-18-07, 05:19 PM	If you're guarding a prisoner, it's unlikely that you can ready an action, since you can only ready actions in combat. (If you are in combat, you probably have something better to do than ready an action against your prisoner.) And how about casting spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components? (They exist, thanks to Metamagic feats. Silent Blur, for example.) Can you not ready attacks against that either?
Lycanthromancer 05-18-07, 05:48 PM	You can ready an action outside of combat. For instance, you're guarding a door, and you've readied an action to fire a crossbow at the first thing that enters the door. See?
Zankue 05-18-07, 06:00 PM	If you're guarding a prisoner, it's unlikely that you can ready an action, since you can only ready actions in combat. (If you are in combat, you probably have something better to do than ready an action against your prisoner.) And how about casting spells with no verbal, somatic, or material components? (They exist, thanks to Metamagic feats. Silent Blur, for example.) Can you not ready attacks against that either? um... this is psionics... they never use somatic, verbal, or material. Psionics uses displays Material, olfactory, auditory, and several others. As a second thought they do use material... lol not the way spell casters do though. For example material shoots ectoplasm in a 10 ft radius that disipates almost instantly auditory makes a humming noise while you manifest u can control the sound to be as loud as several people cheering or so quite that it requires a listen check DC... 10 for every one in a 10 ft radius. As explained earlier the manifester just has a strange far away look away look in their eyes as they manifest and that is what gives the AoA.
munin 05-18-07, 10:45 PM	So if I'm lying there completely still with my eyes closed and I manifest a power and dispense with the displays, how does the guard know I've manifested a power? From a role-playing perspective I mean.
IceFractal 05-18-07, 11:05 PM	Interesting point - I'd say that manifesting a power while doing something (talking, dodging in combat, juggling) would be noticable, but manifesting a power while already sitting still wouldn't (if you hide the display, obviously). Now if you really wanted to manifest a power in combat I'd rule that you could concentrate for no reason (provoking an AoO), which would be indistinguishable from actually manifesting one, so readied actions would go off then, after which you could manifest the real power. Of course, you get hit twice, but that's what Vigor is for.
CrimsonDeath 05-20-07, 12:33 AM	um... this is psionics... they never use somatic, verbal, or material. I know that this is the "Psionics" board. But I was, for that one paragraph, talking about spellcasting, which does include somatic, verbal, and material components. Presumably, a power with no displays should (from the perspective of an observer) be indistinguishable from a spell with no components. If a character could detect and react to one event, he could detect and react to the other event. For that matter, spell-like abilities have no components or displays. Is it possible to detect and react to a spell-like ability that is used defensively? In short, the purpose of my post was to describe the can of worms that the ruling in question was opening. I was perfectly aware the entire time that psionic powers (which I wasn't even talking about) don't have verbal, somatic, or material components. You can ready an action outside of combat. For instance, you're guarding a door, and you've readied an action to fire a crossbow at the first thing that enters the door. See? Combat is the only situation in which you are explicitly allowed to ready an action. "Ready" is part of the "Special Initiative Actions" section of the "Combat" chapter of the PHB. The "Special Initiative Actions" section claims to present two ways to alter your place in initiative; those two ways are "Delay" and "Ready". Outside combat, there's no initiative order to change your place within, so by RAW, there's no way to ready an action. If your group is happy readying actions outside combat, though, I suppose you can go right on doing so (although I wouldn't be surprised if the DM tried it once in a while).