Dissipating/Dissolving Touch and grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dissipating/Dissolving Touch and grappling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orenmir
08-23-07, 11:52 AM While grappling, do you have to make a succesful touch attack to deal damage with Dissipating or Dissolving Touch?

RAW seems to imply you do; but, logic tells me that you're constantly touching your opponent while grappling. So, I would say you don't even need to win a grapple check to deal this damage. I would also say that it stacks with your normal grappling damage for the round. Well, that might be a bit overpowered.

What say you?
InkBlot
08-23-07, 12:08 PM According to Rules Of The Game: All About Grappling, you don't have to make another touch attack. You're already touching. Unfortunately, the DnD website is brokenated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) so I can't show you this.

If you don't go by Rules Of The Game, which isn't quite official even if it does come from WotC staff game designers, then you have to make a seperate touch attack. If you're delivering it with your hand, then you take a -4 penalty because it's a light weapon. If you're delivering it with your natural weapon, then I don't know what happens because the one time this came up in a game I just had the monster use it's hand anyway.
AntiDjinn
08-23-07, 12:53 PM It is conceivable that someone who is grappling you could have ahold of your wrists which could limit where you can put your hands, but the grappling rules don't really get into this level of detail and just assume the two opponents are clasped around each other with enough rolling and thrashing about that ranged attackers shooting at one have to determine randomly which one they actually hit. If your opponent manages to get you pinned then he can control your movement, which would imply he has your limbs under control. Being pinned, however, is also a status that can change from round to round.
Orenmir
08-23-07, 01:13 PM It is conceivable that someone who is grappling you could have ahold of your wrists which could limit where you can put your hands.

Good point; I didn't think of that.

I guess it would be reasonable to say that a successful grapple check to deal regular unarmed damage would also inflict the dissipating or acid damage.

Any disagreements? Since RAW is a little vague, this sounds like a houserule to me.
InkBlot
08-23-07, 01:19 PM You don't have to use your hands to do the touching. When you manifest a spell or power of touch range, you can use any body part you want (just like an unarmed strike).

In the Player's Handbook there is a bit of support for not having to make another attack roll. On page 141, under Holding The Charge it states "if you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." This is only stated (as far as I know) to work for holding the charge, but it makes sense to apply it to touch spells as you cast them too. Theoretically, you could ready an action to hit someone with a touch spell when they touch you.
Mindolin
08-23-07, 01:20 PM Does the touch spell necessarily come from your hands? All that is required is that you touch them intentionally, so the thing about them grabbing your wrists still requires a touch attack. Is there any reason a touch attack cannot be used with, say, a knee? Actually had a character in one game who was being grappled by a mind flayer, about to feast on her brains, when she decided to deliver an Inflict Critical Wounds spell with a knee to the groin.
AntiDjinn
08-23-07, 01:43 PM If you are delivering Dissolving Touch with your knee isn't your opponent going to get some cover from your pants? Or are you wearing a kilt? If you want the effect to originate from an item (clothing is an item, even has an entry section in MIC) then you need to be using Dissolving Weapon.

While it is conceivable that you could deliver a touch attack with your face, you probably do have to decide when you manifest how you are going to deliver the attacks. If the effect simply radiates from the entire surface area of your body then touching anything with any part (including a gnat landing on your shoulder) should discharge one use of the power. Dissolving Touch is psychometabolic which means you manipulate your biology to secrete acid or caustic enzymes from somewhere on your body. The actual text says: "Your touch, claw, or bite is corrosive, and sizzling moisture visibly oozes from your natural weapon or hand." It does not say any spot you choose becomes corrosive and you can move the spot from round to round.
Orenmir
08-23-07, 01:48 PM Does the touch spell necessarily come from your hands?

Well, the power isn't exactly a touch power. The affect happens to the manifester. But, you're right, the manifester's natural weapon can deliver the touch attack which deals the damage.

Hmmmm.... Now methinks even a grapple check isn't needed. Does anyone else think that may be overpowered?
AntiDjinn
08-23-07, 02:03 PM The way I would handle it is: If the opponent hasn't made the Spot check to note the acid dripping from your claws or mouth (or a Psicraft check to name the exact power) then the hit is more or less automatic during the grapple (hard for him to avoid the damage that he never saw coming). If you wind up on top during the grapple you could just allow the acid to drip down onto him by gravity (no, that is not using it at range since you are in the same space, it is still a melee touch attack. This is basically, what you do when you use a touch attack to deliver the acid without also delivering your claw or bite attack.) and there is not much he can do about that (other than have resistance already in place). Once he is aware of the attack, he should have whatever defense he would normally have against a natural weapon or touch attack while grappling. At that point he can try to pin you so that the source of the acid is down and away from him, but you will have the normal chance to avoid the pin or break it.

Bottom line being: Dissolving Touch is not Fire Shield or Let Go of Me or similar in which anyone touching or grabbing you automatically takes damage on their action. It is an attack that you need to make. Your opponent can do whatever he would normally to do ensure that attack misses.
Tedronai
08-24-07, 02:21 AM What about, however, a character that is currently swallowed whole?
They are surrounded on all sides by their target, it should be virtually impossible (regardless of how abysmal their attack modifier is) for them to miss. All they have to do is stick their hand out a few inches from their own body and they'll hit the stomach wall of their target (unless of course they're not alone, or the power can affect objects - like corpses - in which case the situation may become more complicated)
AntiDjinn
08-24-07, 04:00 AM Technically, it is not automatic, but the chance of a miss is pretty low. The AC of the interior of the monster is 10 + half its natural AC mod (if any) with no Dex or size mods. So it should be easy to hit. It is not correct to say that everything you touch will be monster because there is probably plenty more in the GI tract with you including whatever else it ate (like the rest of your party), and your own limbs and body (you are kinda squished while being digested). Monsters that swallow whole may also have a rock gizzard that takes the place of mechanical chewing. There may also be chunks of armor, plus the odd magic item or two kicking around in there. So most of what you hit will be monster, but not all. If you want to get realistic, you should also be suffocating, should take penalties for fighting blind and for taking continuous damage. Attacks vs. the wall of the stomach should trigger the enterogastric reflex (the wall of the stomach and intestines contract away from sharp things). This reflex, along with a tissue called the omentum, is why minor punctures in the GI tract can be closed (though IRL it can't do so after something has hacked its way to the outside). None of this is within the scope of the game, unless your DM gets into monster ecologies.

By the rules, you need a light cutting or piercing weapon, but supernatural effects should still work. The problem is they might not get you out. And manifesting may be a problem when you are taking continuous damage from being digested (a good time to expend to take 15). Triggering Ultrablast or other radial damage may kill the monster but still leave you trapped inside its corpse. Assimilate should get you out because it consumes the substance of the victim. Expansion to the same size as the monster should burst you out, but may not be so good for you. Time Hop may be your best bet overall; Hop the monster out from around you and run like hell before it pops back in.

For the powers at hand: Dissipating Touch should get you out; it isn't cutting or piercing, but it does teleport some of the target away. If you do enough to kill it, then you can assume you made a hole. Dissolving Touch might not be so impressive against the stomach wall because it is designed to deal with acid. If natural creatures have acid resistance anywhere, it is in their stomachs. Your own stomach contains an acid that could etch concrete, plus enzymes that denature proteins and carbohydrates. The lining of your stomach is coated with a mucus buffer and it also has defenses at the cellular level that protect it. If a monster can digest an unchewed human in armor, assume its digestive processes are even stronger. If you generate acid and thrash around in there you may even be helping it digest the rest of its meal.
Orenmir
08-24-07, 10:30 AM Boy, I had no idea this thread would go in this direction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orenmir 08-23-07, 11:52 AM	While grappling, do you have to make a succesful touch attack to deal damage with Dissipating or Dissolving Touch? RAW seems to imply you do; but, logic tells me that you're constantly touching your opponent while grappling. So, I would say you don't even need to win a grapple check to deal this damage. I would also say that it stacks with your normal grappling damage for the round. Well, that might be a bit overpowered. What say you?
InkBlot 08-23-07, 12:08 PM	According to Rules Of The Game: All About Grappling, you don't have to make another touch attack. You're already touching. Unfortunately, the DnD website is brokenated (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) so I can't show you this. If you don't go by Rules Of The Game, which isn't quite official even if it does come from WotC staff game designers, then you have to make a seperate touch attack. If you're delivering it with your hand, then you take a -4 penalty because it's a light weapon. If you're delivering it with your natural weapon, then I don't know what happens because the one time this came up in a game I just had the monster use it's hand anyway.
AntiDjinn 08-23-07, 12:53 PM	It is conceivable that someone who is grappling you could have ahold of your wrists which could limit where you can put your hands, but the grappling rules don't really get into this level of detail and just assume the two opponents are clasped around each other with enough rolling and thrashing about that ranged attackers shooting at one have to determine randomly which one they actually hit. If your opponent manages to get you pinned then he can control your movement, which would imply he has your limbs under control. Being pinned, however, is also a status that can change from round to round.
Orenmir 08-23-07, 01:13 PM	It is conceivable that someone who is grappling you could have ahold of your wrists which could limit where you can put your hands. Good point; I didn't think of that. I guess it would be reasonable to say that a successful grapple check to deal regular unarmed damage would also inflict the dissipating or acid damage. Any disagreements? Since RAW is a little vague, this sounds like a houserule to me.
InkBlot 08-23-07, 01:19 PM	You don't have to use your hands to do the touching. When you manifest a spell or power of touch range, you can use any body part you want (just like an unarmed strike). In the Player's Handbook there is a bit of support for not having to make another attack roll. On page 141, under Holding The Charge it states "if you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges." This is only stated (as far as I know) to work for holding the charge, but it makes sense to apply it to touch spells as you cast them too. Theoretically, you could ready an action to hit someone with a touch spell when they touch you.
Mindolin 08-23-07, 01:20 PM	Does the touch spell necessarily come from your hands? All that is required is that you touch them intentionally, so the thing about them grabbing your wrists still requires a touch attack. Is there any reason a touch attack cannot be used with, say, a knee? Actually had a character in one game who was being grappled by a mind flayer, about to feast on her brains, when she decided to deliver an Inflict Critical Wounds spell with a knee to the groin.
AntiDjinn 08-23-07, 01:43 PM	If you are delivering Dissolving Touch with your knee isn't your opponent going to get some cover from your pants? Or are you wearing a kilt? If you want the effect to originate from an item (clothing is an item, even has an entry section in MIC) then you need to be using Dissolving Weapon. While it is conceivable that you could deliver a touch attack with your face, you probably do have to decide when you manifest how you are going to deliver the attacks. If the effect simply radiates from the entire surface area of your body then touching anything with any part (including a gnat landing on your shoulder) should discharge one use of the power. Dissolving Touch is psychometabolic which means you manipulate your biology to secrete acid or caustic enzymes from somewhere on your body. The actual text says: "Your touch, claw, or bite is corrosive, and sizzling moisture visibly oozes from your natural weapon or hand." It does not say any spot you choose becomes corrosive and you can move the spot from round to round.
Orenmir 08-23-07, 01:48 PM	Does the touch spell necessarily come from your hands? Well, the power isn't exactly a touch power. The affect happens to the manifester. But, you're right, the manifester's natural weapon can deliver the touch attack which deals the damage. Hmmmm.... Now methinks even a grapple check isn't needed. Does anyone else think that may be overpowered?
AntiDjinn 08-23-07, 02:03 PM	The way I would handle it is: If the opponent hasn't made the Spot check to note the acid dripping from your claws or mouth (or a Psicraft check to name the exact power) then the hit is more or less automatic during the grapple (hard for him to avoid the damage that he never saw coming). If you wind up on top during the grapple you could just allow the acid to drip down onto him by gravity (no, that is not using it at range since you are in the same space, it is still a melee touch attack. This is basically, what you do when you use a touch attack to deliver the acid without also delivering your claw or bite attack.) and there is not much he can do about that (other than have resistance already in place). Once he is aware of the attack, he should have whatever defense he would normally have against a natural weapon or touch attack while grappling. At that point he can try to pin you so that the source of the acid is down and away from him, but you will have the normal chance to avoid the pin or break it. Bottom line being: Dissolving Touch is not Fire Shield or Let Go of Me or similar in which anyone touching or grabbing you automatically takes damage on their action. It is an attack that you need to make. Your opponent can do whatever he would normally to do ensure that attack misses.
Tedronai 08-24-07, 02:21 AM	What about, however, a character that is currently swallowed whole? They are surrounded on all sides by their target, it should be virtually impossible (regardless of how abysmal their attack modifier is) for them to miss. All they have to do is stick their hand out a few inches from their own body and they'll hit the stomach wall of their target (unless of course they're not alone, or the power can affect objects - like corpses - in which case the situation may become more complicated)
AntiDjinn 08-24-07, 04:00 AM	Technically, it is not automatic, but the chance of a miss is pretty low. The AC of the interior of the monster is 10 + half its natural AC mod (if any) with no Dex or size mods. So it should be easy to hit. It is not correct to say that everything you touch will be monster because there is probably plenty more in the GI tract with you including whatever else it ate (like the rest of your party), and your own limbs and body (you are kinda squished while being digested). Monsters that swallow whole may also have a rock gizzard that takes the place of mechanical chewing. There may also be chunks of armor, plus the odd magic item or two kicking around in there. So most of what you hit will be monster, but not all. If you want to get realistic, you should also be suffocating, should take penalties for fighting blind and for taking continuous damage. Attacks vs. the wall of the stomach should trigger the enterogastric reflex (the wall of the stomach and intestines contract away from sharp things). This reflex, along with a tissue called the omentum, is why minor punctures in the GI tract can be closed (though IRL it can't do so after something has hacked its way to the outside). None of this is within the scope of the game, unless your DM gets into monster ecologies. By the rules, you need a light cutting or piercing weapon, but supernatural effects should still work. The problem is they might not get you out. And manifesting may be a problem when you are taking continuous damage from being digested (a good time to expend to take 15). Triggering Ultrablast or other radial damage may kill the monster but still leave you trapped inside its corpse. Assimilate should get you out because it consumes the substance of the victim. Expansion to the same size as the monster should burst you out, but may not be so good for you. Time Hop may be your best bet overall; Hop the monster out from around you and run like hell before it pops back in. For the powers at hand: Dissipating Touch should get you out; it isn't cutting or piercing, but it does teleport some of the target away. If you do enough to kill it, then you can assume you made a hole. Dissolving Touch might not be so impressive against the stomach wall because it is designed to deal with acid. If natural creatures have acid resistance anywhere, it is in their stomachs. Your own stomach contains an acid that could etch concrete, plus enzymes that denature proteins and carbohydrates. The lining of your stomach is coated with a mucus buffer and it also has defenses at the cellular level that protect it. If a monster can digest an unchewed human in armor, assume its digestive processes are even stronger. If you generate acid and thrash around in there you may even be helping it digest the rest of its meal.
Orenmir 08-24-07, 10:30 AM	Boy, I had no idea this thread would go in this direction.