Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dazzer 09-01-07, 03:34 AM	This is my follow-up to a post "DM won't allow psionics? Try This!" It is a new thread in which; essentially, I will describe why I personally don't allow psionics; but I don't actually have a problem with them at the same time. This may sound odd; but bear with me. First of all, I want people to realize, I have read the book, seen in action non-epic and epic psions, I understand how they work. Proof. Psionics are not weak. But neither are they over-powered. I realize this. Psionics are meant to be more versatile, because in general, psionic powers are weaker. In general. Some are more powerful. This is to be expected. A manifester may not spend more power points than his level, barring the Overchannel feat, which I personally believe is balanced. Not all psions have access to all powers, due to forced discipline choosing. Hence, without a feat, a non-nomad, will never get fly. Etc. Anyway, now that we're on the same page. I will now detail, my problem with psionics in my games. You will see it is a semi-valid point (people with express photo-graphic memories will realize why). I don't allow psionics in my games. Because the player will never see another psion, unless another player plays one. This is not because I don't know how to prepare a psion, this is not because I feel like they are weak encounters. This is not because of any "broken" feelings. Psionic encounters, are more work to prepare. Psionic powers, generally have more than one use, or they are augmentable, or they can be combined well with others. Essentially, I find preparing a standard sorcerer encounter easier simply because. Spells generally have one effect, spell levels make which spells a sorcerer will cast easy to determine; and in which order. All of my points in the last paragraph are mute. If the DM is willing to thumb through the psionics book during a psionics encounter; or has a very good memory. Personally, I prefer to not look a books during a session, and I prefer if possible, to not use my memory. My example is this. 1st level power, energy ray. 1st level spell, ray of enfeeblement, or shocking grasp. Power: This power has 4 possible outcomes, and is augmentable; lets also assume the psion has several feats which could be applied by spending power-points, that he can choose to over-channel. He is level 1, 5, and 15. Spells: For both spells, we will assume the same thing, 1, 5, 15. It is possible the sorcerer has feats he could apply on the fly. Power: First, choose an element, the power does more damage with fire/cold, less with sonic, and has some bonus to hit if electricity if foes are wearing metal. Not only this, it is augmentable, 1 point = 1 extra d6. (not broken I realize). This is supposed to be, a simple power. Without the book, I may forget what sonic or what electricity does. I may also forget sonic is an option, and think acid, since that's the norm. It is possible. Additionally, as the psion becomes able to over-channel, apply metapsionics, and potentially augment the hell out of it (and this is a 1st level power, there are more complicated powers). Ever had an encounter where a psion is using charm, psionic. Usually easy right? Unless the party is made up of, human, human, fey, outsider. In which case you have to remember how many power points it takes to effect the fey and the outsider (2 and 4?) Then you have to remember, that if it is augmented, the DC is effected in some way (+1 per 2?), These things can be prepared. Usually I brief myself on the powers in my notes...however, for complicated powers, it's annoying. Spells: Ray of enfeeblement. At 1st level, 1d6 strength penalty. At 5th level, 1d6 + 2 strength penalty. At 15th level, 1d6 + 5 penalty. Augmentable with feats, sure. Easy to determine on the fly what maximize, or empower would do....Allows SR etc... Shocking Grasp. 1d6, then 5d6, then 5d6. Touch attack. +3 to hit if metal armour. Not hard...pretty easy. Allows SR etc... Essentially, long story short. It takes me, maybe, 10 minutes to make a good 5th level sorcerer and have him ready to fight the party. It takes me slightly longer for the psionic counterpart. I could rush, but mistakes cost lives...PC's lives usually. Additionally, for higher level encounters. Remember this. A sorcerer or wizard, will quickly burn through his highest level spell slots. He then relies, on less powerful, less damaging spells. After 2-3 rounds, a wizard will have used all his highest level spell slots, and probably some lower ones with swift action spells if he is well designed. Then the DM simply crosses out the spell-level and moves down the list. Essentially, the wizard loses access to a bunch of spells and has to rely on the rest. A psion has all their spells available, for as long as power points remain. They actually have longer staying power in the average encounter. A 20th level psion, has 37 different options, usually all of them are good. Energy Ray (1st level power) can deal up to 20d6+20 damage to a single target with a ranged touch....that isn't bad when you think about it. Then you have to remember, it's a 1st level power...he has...36 more powers (all of them better in theory). So which will it be DM...which will it be? As you can see. I don't mind psionics from a players perspective. They are cool, neat, and allow versatility that a caster needs, while slightly nerfing power. From a DM's perspective...unless you are VERY well versed in psionics, it can be like eating a pine-cone.
Bacris 09-01-07, 08:44 AM	Why do the psionic characters have to fight psionic creatures to have psionics in your game? Why couldn't you introduce, say, a benevolent psionic organization which is quite small - i.e. no NPCs above 4th manifester level? There's no reason a non-psionic enemy could have, for example, a psychoactive skin. Or an NPC with just Wild Talent and Psionic Weapon. There's no rule forcing you to introduce a 20th level telepath / thrallherd with a horde of nomads, shapers, psychic warriors, soulknives, etc serving him. And really, I've played entire campaigns as a psionic character where the number of psionic items / enemies I faced or looted could be counted on one hand - didn't make the campaign any less fun.
Roxlimn 09-01-07, 09:39 AM	You will usually need no more than one or general "power-plans." These are tactics that the psion will prefer to use in the 5 or so rounds he has to manifest. No need to decide on a plan, the psion will simply move "according to script."
yrogerg 09-01-07, 02:14 PM	Psionic encounters, are more work to prepare. Psionic powers, generally have more than one use, or they are augmentable, or they can be combined well with others. Essentially, I find preparing a standard sorcerer encounter easier simply because. Spells generally have one effect, spell levels make which spells a sorcerer will cast easy to determine; and in which order. All of my points in the last paragraph are mute. If the DM is willing to thumb through the psionics book during a psionics encounter; or has a very good memory. Personally, I prefer to not look a books during a session, and I prefer if possible, to not use my memory. There are of course, *many* spells that have multiple effects or require a DM to bury their nose in a book or peruse the FAQ (or these boards) to adjudicate adequitely. Especially with spell interactions in mind: 1st Message: doesn't follow normal LoE rules Alarm: Multiple possible effects Protection from Evil, etc.: Multiple effects, some difficulty adjudicating spell interactions. Summon Monster X: Multiple effects, and then some. Color Spray: Multiple Effects Cause Fear: Difficult to adjudicate spell interactions 2nd Level: Resist Energy: Multiple Effects Glitterdust: Multiple effects Web: Multiple, complex effects, complicated effects on save. See Invisibility: Difficult to adjudicate interactions with some other spells Darkness: Just difficult. Gust of Wind: Multiple effects based on target size. Shatter: Multiple effects. Mirror Image: Very difficult to adjudicate: there are as many different interpretations of this spell as there are pages in the PHB. Alter Self: First in a long line of very complex, difficult to adjudicate spells. And that's only up to 2nd level. I'd argue this is much more of a general problem with spellcasting to begin with, that, at most, is marginally more of a problem with psionics. And by contrast, psionics (largely IMO here), tend to have much less of a problem with vagueness and difficult-to-adjudicate interactions. My example is this. 1st level power, energy ray. 1st level spell, ray of enfeeblement, or shocking grasp. Power: This power has 4 possible outcomes, and is augmentable; lets also assume the psion has several feats which could be applied by spending power-points, that he can choose to over-channel. He is level 1, 5, and 15. Spells: For both spells, we will assume the same thing, 1, 5, 15. It is possible the sorcerer has feats he could apply on the fly. Power: First, choose an element, the power does more damage with fire/cold, less with sonic, and has some bonus to hit if electricity if foes are wearing metal. Not only this, it is augmentable, 1 point = 1 extra d6. (not broken I realize). This is supposed to be, a simple power. Without the book, I may forget what sonic or what electricity does. I may also forget sonic is an option, and think acid, since that's the norm. It is possible. Additionally, as the psion becomes able to over-channel, apply metapsionics, and potentially augment the hell out of it (and this is a 1st level power, there are more complicated powers). Ever had an encounter where a psion is using charm, psionic. Usually easy right? Unless the party is made up of, human, human, fey, outsider. In which case you have to remember how many power points it takes to effect the fey and the outsider (2 and 4?) Then you have to remember, that if it is augmented, the DC is effected in some way (+1 per 2?), These things can be prepared. Usually I brief myself on the powers in my notes...however, for complicated powers, it's annoying. Energy powers aren't really that difficult: you just need to think of them as multiple different powers, and just pick them the way another spellcaster would pick energy types and save types: My manifestors would always use Lightning by default (highest saves and ML checks), and only use Fire against vulnerable creatures, cold against dex-based enemies, and sonic only when everything else failed. Also, they'd always augment up to their level or their level-1, as long as they had the PP, obviating the complexity of augments quite a bit. When it comes down to it, this is no different from deciding between scorching ray and shocking grasp, with the bonus of not having to pick between different types of targeting: in my experience targeting's effects on tactical decisions become a much bigger time-waster: can I *risk* getting close enough to use shocking grasp, or should I use a less-effective longer-range spell? Also, when talking about Sorc as a comparison group, it's worth pointing out that Sorcerers usually *favor* the more multiple-effect spells out there, making Shadow Evocation/Conjuration must-have, and causing them to often take feats that let them diversify damage types of their spells. Many very good psionic powers don't have multiple effects, whereas sorcerers are going to favor the multi-effect spells that exist on their list wherever they can. For the type based ones, yes, it's more complex, but this is really functional complexity: the Charm Person/Charm Monster paradigm leaves a great deal to be desired, and Psionic Charm does fill the gaps here. Of course, YMMV here, but if we're talking sorcerer examples, it's worth pointing out that most sorcerers drop Charm Person once they get Charm Monster, meaning now they're using a needlessly higher-level spell just to boost their save DCs and free up a lower-level slot. A Psion, by contrast, can use the right tool for the right job, which is somewhat more satisfying. <snip> A psion has all their spells available, for as long as power points remain. They actually have longer staying power in the average encounter. A 20th level psion, has 37 different options, usually all of them are good. Energy Ray (1st level power) can deal up to 20d6+20 damage to a single target with a ranged touch....that isn't bad when you think about it. Then you have to remember, it's a 1st level power...he has...36 more powers (all of them better in theory). So which will it be DM...which will it be? But how is this different from Arcane spellcasting, which relies on the level caps on some spells to deal with auto-scaling? Yes, you have options, but at 20 power points a pop, you're not fully-augmenting everything, meaning you're either using a few higher level powers and then jumping to lower-level stuff, or you're using a beevy of lower-level stuff, variously augmented. Technically, the only difference with a sorcerer is that using a 9th-level slot to cast a 1st-level spell is almost always a losing option.
johnkretzer 09-01-07, 02:19 PM	I actualy have a different opinion on running a NPC psionic in combat. I just find it simpler. But then again I just might have a better knowledge of psionics then you do or just prepare better by knowing what is in the party and how spells or powers will effect them. But why do you need psionics encounters if there is a psionic in game? Also try running just a wilder, they have less options.
PhaedrusXY 09-01-07, 04:30 PM	But why do you need psionics encounters if there is a psionic in game? You don't. I'm pretty sure this was also pointed out in the other thread the OP mentions.
johnkretzer 09-01-07, 05:21 PM	You don't. I'm pretty sure this was also pointed out in the other thread the OP mentions. I know. What I am trying to do figure out is why the OP thinks you do. The OP might have valid reasons for this belief.
Lokiyn 09-01-07, 10:12 PM	My guess would be the concept that if something is allowed it must also be as pervasive as the other material, it seems like a lot of people feel if they include say, incarnum, it must have always existed and used as commonly as say, bards. The great thing about this is it is false in the extreme, just a two quick resolutions to this you could pick say one of these options You are the first, a visionary exploring a previously untapped field of power it is included just not here In the latter case, the character could be shipwrecked, or teleport error, or even its a family secret passed down, or prehaps your parent was a traveller from far away and passed on his foreign skills before they died of sickness. anything is possible
Bacris 09-02-07, 02:51 AM	Lokiyn - all those are excellent explanations. Another? Everyone just thought the manifesters were sorcerors or wizards. And the manifesters didn't do anything to discourage this belief. That's how my psion was introduced in one campaign - everyone just thought he was a sorceror - and I didn't bother to correct them until later on.
johnkretzer 09-02-07, 12:02 PM	Or it could be that the percentage of people with adventuring classes aren't that high to start with that you just don't run into one with psionic ability. For instance I allow warlocks, but that doesn't mean every campaign I run will have warlocks in it.
Dazzer 09-03-07, 03:11 AM	Actually. The reason I would want to mix psions into a campaign where a player was playing a psion, is simply for the options. If I tell my players X-Book is allowed. I am telling them two things 1.) You can use this book however you like. 2.) I will use this book during the course of the campaign, for some reason, at some point. It may be as simple as a soul-knife, essentially a fighter-like class that gains class-features instead of feats. OR It could be a full-fledged psion being the main BBEG. Now, the real Can-O-Worms I was thinking about is this. Psionics in some ways, are unfair when you don't use the psionics book against the players. A psion who knows the book won't be used for the DM isn't very versed at psionics; has the advantage. He can hide almost every one of his powers; thus not allowing a spell-craft (or psi-craft) check to identify it, and he essentially becomes very powerful because nobody can really tell who is making the effects happen, meaning he can get away with alot of things. Now, if psions are common, this is harder to do. Feats, powers, and class-abilities can thwart the hiding of powers with a concentration check; people will realize what kind of magic X PC is using and enemies will come prepared. And finally... When a sorcerer in my games fights another sorcerer, I prepare the encounter in such a way that I know the PC cannot win in 3 rounds. That it will take almost every spell in his repertoire, thrice over to beat him down. Opening round disintegrate is met with absorption, countered with spell-turning, which is dispelled; I quicken a globe of invulnerability to stop enervation, he fires a polar ray, absorption eats most of it, some damage gets through, enemy sorcerer counters with a quickened enervation; followed by greater arcane fusion to hit the player with 2 more devasting spells, perhaps getting another buff spell upon himself during this; the player then casts arcane spell-surge.... Every spell gets used; I counter, they counter, they slightly effect, spells go wild and the fight is amazing.... Similarly, when a fighter fights another fight, or warrior type in single-combat, similar things happen. I trip, he resists; he re-trips, he succeeds gets a free attack, disarms; I take an immediate action using an item to get up and back away; round 1 for enemy over, round 1 for player begins.... Fighters in my games tend to be well-equipped with action-giving items (any I can find); and items that help resist typical fighter-tactics but not to the point of completely negating them. That way, the player finds it difficult, hard and it takes more than just 3 rounds. Also, just hitting for damage usually won't work; since healing items exist; as does fast-healing contingencies upon damage. To defeat an NPC fighter, you must DEFEAT him. Take his weapon, sunder his shield, murder his armour, grapple him and begin removing his rings; until he has so little left he can't fight back; once you find the items that are giving him the resistances, then damage begins to work well... So if a player plays a psion, I want to have a very similar thing going. I want the psion to simply, burn through his entire list of powers seeking to hurt this enemy; but find that he has to use multiple different variations to do it. Unfortunately, with all the possible augments; different power uses, one power being able to do so many different things; have different saving throws used; psionic focuses being expended and regained; Some DM's will be able to keep track; I eventually lose track and I slip up. I know psionics are relatively balanced when it comes to in-game use. However, I personally find them hard to moderate; so they are banned due to my failing as a DM. Despite the fact that psionics are limiting and versatile at the same time; all the pure sorcerers I've seen have had many outlets to a situation. Many psions I see are 4-5 trick ponies; or have vast combat ability, or self-buff ability, or are amazing with people. Throw them down a pit-trap, useless. Have a needle-strike them which sends a possessing demon into their brain to begin a mental war of will-save vs. Save DC.... They can save, but if they fail they are useless.... I find it hard to moderate challenges. I don't know what a psion can and cannot handle. I either over-kill, or under-kill them. They are balanced but some standard encounters are easy for a psion, and some are overwhelming; and I usually don't know which ones until they psion is dead. Maybe it's just my group, maybe it's just my style of DMing. They tend to go badly in my games, so I disallow them. As an example; a friend of mine played an egoist, and he essentially attempted to become better than the fighter using psionic powers. He wanted more damage; he wanted temporary hitpoints (or what he called temporary damage reduction). He boosted his armour class, his saving throws, his immunities..... When he got thrown against 2 creatures with 15ft reach in tight courters; where one of them simply readied it's action against the psion's powers.... He couldn't get through it. He had the rest of the party with him; the cleric was righteous mighting and divine mighting to take down the creatures, the fighter was running into melee with spring attack to avoid AoO's, the rogue was tumbling. The cleric used heightened sanctuary prior to the fight and got lucky with the creatures saves, so he was able to buff in peace. The psion, the only caster the creature could actually strike, got screwed. However, instead of having some backup plan, or contingency against not being able to use his powers. He simply said "well, I give up, you've made my character useless". It may have just been the player; but he's been with us for awhile and rarely does this kind of thing. It may have just been the situation, the time of night, wtv. I find that psionists niche themselves, and when they are out of their-niche, they can't do anything at all. The argument here is obviously, that they should diversify, which they can. I've tried to make a sapphire dragon (which gets free manifester levels); as diverse as possible. However, with the discipline trees; most of the "universal" powers are so bland; that they end up niched anyway. Sure, I made him be able to up his AC, hitpoints, he is a nomad so he can move like crazy in odd and unusual ways; but he can't charm, he can't have great self-buffs, and he can't use divination too well. Neither does he have major blasting spells, only minor ones. Hence, a sorcerer, generally is easier to make as an NPC, because you aren't limited to a pre-selected niche. Now I realize with feats and stuff, I could give the dragon charm, or dominate...I'd prefer to have multi-attack, and quicken power, but that's just me. The BBEG sorcerer could have any spell on the wiz/sorc list, which is a wonderful list. The psionic list is needlessly complicated (I do need the powers in front of me to use them to their most efficient way, which is annoying) As well as needlessly complicated in terms of actual placement. I realize, energy line (120ft line, same as energy ray). Allows a reflex save for half, the DC can be augmented, as can the damage. The type of energy used effects damage, save DC, ML, and WHICH save is used. This is annoying. Is it better to use reflex save for half when confronting the following line? Rogue, Wiz, Fighter Or is it better to use fort save for half? The wizard gets screwed either way. So really it's, do I like fighter or rogue more as a character? Which character does the psion feel is the most threatening? Replace wizard with barbarian...now I have 2 good forts, and 1 good reflex. However, I will have 100% chance of damaging all 3 with a fort save; but two will likely take half; as opposed to a good chance the fighter/barb will take full damage, but a good chance the rogue will get off scott free.....hmmm.... For a sorcerer, he either has fireball, or he has lightning bolt, or he has a similar spell (I call these the direct damage types) that allows a fort save for half. Rarely will he have all 3, he'll choose one, and move on to another TYPE of spell (such as mind-power, or divination, or stat-effect). Off-Hand, just as a counter-example to my point to show that I'm a good sport. Wiz/Sorc Spell, Defenestrating Sphere (level 4) Casting Time: 1 standard action Duration: 1 round/level SR: YES Save: See-Text.... You can move a defenestrating sphere up to 30ft as a free action once per round; guiding it mentally. If it enters a square of a creature it stops immediately... Make a touch attack, if succeed, roll 3d6 damage. If touch and damage successful, creature gets a fortitude save, if fail creature goes prone. If creature goes prone (or is already prone), make another fortitude save, if fail, creature goes 1d6 x 10ft into the air, in a random direction (roll 1d8, top square is 1, 2 is one right, etc...). And flies 1d4 squares in that direction. If there is a nearby window, he flies in that direction. If he has the height and distance, he goes through said window. If equal distance exists between two windows, roll 50% chance to see which one. So I realize, that wiz/sorc spells can be complicated. They can be time taking, and roll intensive. However, psionics are naturally bent towards complications. With the ability to augment, and the ability to choose difference types, and the fact that manifester level still counts towards effect, but augments can essentially add more oomph into that effect; it is naturally bent to be more time intensive (at least from a DM's viewpoint). Players tend to either full-blast, or minimum-blast. They rarely go for an in-between unless they KNOW that it's better. (they know the thing is maybe dead for 3d6, dead on average for 4d6, always dead on 5d6, and they can go up to 10d6...). Usually they do not know, so they deal 10d6, or 1d6. Simple.
Fireclave 09-03-07, 06:38 AM	When a sorcerer in my games fights another sorcerer, I prepare the encounter in such a way that I know the PC cannot win in 3 rounds. ... Similarly, when a fighter fights another fight, or warrior type in single-combat, similar things happen. ... So if a player plays a psion, I want to have a very similar thing going. I want the psion to simply, burn through his entire list of powers seeking to hurt this enemy; but find that he has to use multiple different variations to do it. Unfortunately, with all the possible augments; different power uses, one power being able to do so many different things; have different saving throws used; psionic focuses being expended and regained; Some DM's will be able to keep track; I eventually lose track and I slip up. If you really want to challenge a psion with a psion but don't want to actually run a psion yourself, throw another type of spellcaster at your players. Wizards and Sorcerers are similiar enough in power and abilities to seriously challenge a psion. I know psionics are relatively balanced when it comes to in-game use. However, I personally find them hard to moderate; so they are banned due to my failing as a DM. Despite the fact that psionics are limiting and versatile at the same time; all the pure sorcerers I've seen have had many outlets to a situation. Many psions I see are 4-5 trick ponies; or have vast combat ability, or self-buff ability, or are amazing with people. Throw them down a pit-trap, useless. Well psions are much like sorcerer in their capabilities. It's just as easy to trick-pony yourself with a sorcerer as it is to do with a psion. But ANY caster, psionic or no, that can't get themselves out of a pit deserves to die. I didn't think there was such a thing as a caster without the ability to fly, 'port, or levitate. All of which any psion can do btw. Have a needle-strike them which sends a possessing demon into their brain to begin a mental war of will-save vs. Save DC.... They can save, but if they fail they are useless.... That's not a fair example. Most creatures are pretty hosed if they fail vs a possessing demon. I find it hard to moderate challenges. I don't know what a psion can and cannot handle. I either over-kill, or under-kill them. They are balanced but some standard encounters are easy for a psion, and some are overwhelming; and I usually don't know which ones until they psion is dead. This is true for all classes. An undead encounter that's easy for the fighter and cleric will be difficult for the rogue. A social encounter that's a breeze for the bard will be difficult for the barbarian. Druid can end encounters with animals without even needing to find. Most members of the party find it hard to find invisible creatures without a wizard or cleric to make the visible again. A dragon of a decent age played up to its stats can potentially trump almost any party of his CR. What kind of encounters do you consider easy or overwhelming for psions, and why? The psion's list is pretty varied, so I can't imagine the psion not having some kind of tool that couldn't be force to fit into a given situation. As an example; a friend of mine played an egoist, and he essentially attempted to become better than the fighter using psionic powers. He wanted more damage; he wanted temporary hitpoints (or what he called temporary damage reduction). He boosted his armour class, his saving throws, his immunities..... Then he should have played a cleric :P [/joking] When he got thrown against 2 creatures with 15ft reach in tight courters; where one of them simply readied it's action against the psion's powers.... He couldn't get through it. He had the rest of the party with him; the cleric was righteous mighting and divine mighting to take down the creatures, the fighter was running into melee with spring attack to avoid AoO's, the rogue was tumbling. The cleric used heightened sanctuary prior to the fight and got lucky with the creatures saves, so he was able to buff in peace. The psion, the only caster the creature could actually strike, got screwed. However, instead of having some backup plan, or contingency against not being able to use his powers. He simply said "well, I give up, you've made my character useless". Any primary caster would be screwed in this situation. A wizard or sorcerer would have been equally screwed 1) against readied actions to disrupt them, 2) by being within easy reach of enemy, 3) by making himself the obvious target, 4) by attempting to out tank the fighter without the proper Bab, HD size, and weapon prowess, 5) by attempting to out tank the fighter without the aid of a polymorph effect (or buffing effect of similiar power), and 6) (assuming he had planed to out tank the fighter by using his powers) putting all of his primary resources (powers known and pp) into a single strategy. Quote the hedgehog, "That's no good." It may have just been the player; but he's been with us for awhile and rarely does this kind of thing. It may have just been the situation, the time of night, wtv. I find that psionists niche themselves, and when they are out of their-niche, they can't do anything at all. The player simply did not plan his psion very well. The psion has about as many powers known as the sorcerer has spells known. And both, being spontanous casters, are about equally subject to niching themselves into a corner. I realize, energy line (120ft line, same as energy ray). Allows a reflex save for half, the DC can be augmented, as can the damage. The type of energy used effects damage, save DC, ML, and WHICH save is used. This is annoying. Is it better to use reflex save for half when confronting the following line? Rogue, Wiz, Fighter Or is it better to use fort save for half? The wizard gets screwed either way. So really it's, do I like fighter or rogue more as a character? Which character does the psion feel is the most threatening? Replace wizard with barbarian...now I have 2 good forts, and 1 good reflex. However, I will have 100% chance of damaging all 3 with a fort save; but two will likely take half; as opposed to a good chance the fighter/barb will take full damage, but a good chance the rogue will get off scott free.....hmmm.... I think you're thinking about this damage a bit too hard. Not every action taken in combat has to be calculated at 100% strategical perfection. In the heat of battle when there's little time to think, sometimes you just do what seems to be the best idea at the time. And if you can't figure that out, you guess, toss some energy, and (have the fighter) sort it out later. But if 100% damage is what you really, the answer is obvious for the first scenario. Fort save the wizard till he's dead. The wizard must die. Always. The rouge has evasion, so you don't want to use reflex. When the wizard is dead, take care of who ever is closer/more of a threat. For the second scenario, the optimum action would probably be to target their fort saves. You'd probably do less overall damage, but rogue tend to have much fewer HP than fighters and barbarians, so he'll go down much faster. Kill off the rogue, and you've reduced the enemies' forces by 1/3, which have a much more positive impact on the encounter than simply maxing out the hp damage. But in general, if you can't decide which energy to use, roll a d%. Or better yet, either default to fire (can't go wrong with fire) or target them with power that either requires a will save or no save at all. For a sorcerer, he either has fireball, or he has lightning bolt, or he has a similar spell (I call these the direct damage types) that allows a fort save for half. Rarely will he have all 3, he'll choose one, and move on to another TYPE of spell (such as mind-power, or divination, or stat-effect). Assuming a sorcerer in the same situation does not have several multi-targeting energy spells of differing saves, the strategy will most likely stay the same. Kill the wizard with a fort spell if fort is available while targeting the rogue and fighter for collateral damage. Sort out the rest later. If all the sorcerer has access to is a reflex save spell like Fireball, use that instead, kill the wizzy, sort the rest later.
Fafnir 09-03-07, 08:31 AM	What he said. However... can't go wrong with lightning Fixed. +2 to DCs is just too good to pass. And fire is easily resisted.
Lokiyn 09-03-07, 10:43 AM	See, i wouldn't know about energy powers, since Call item and Call weapon serve as my two main generic powers (Hidden Talent[Call weapons]). Prehaps its just me but i enjoy pegging people balista bolts, Yes its in effecient, But few people argue with Balistas. Plus call item takes care of almost any problem, Ladders, poles, anything you can imagine you can pop up. Psions don't need any special challenges, the mistake is in assuming that every character needs special challenges that are tailored to them. Something as simple as a troll or as complicated as a ranger in the woods sniping the party is equally challenging. Dm's don't need to keep track of the fiddly bits, just the end results. In the end, d6/lev damage from a wizard isn't much different from d6/lev from a druid/sorc/favored soul/wu jen/cleric/psion if saves are a problem the don't care at all about damage type saves. Just a slight bump in hp takes care of all the problems. Simple as that and a simple monster becomes more challenging for all classes. Most of the Time the most difficult monsters aren't the ones that have all sorts of special abilities geared to counter a specific class, its just the ones with a enough resiliency to take anything the party can through at them and emerge from the firestorm still swinging. Just toss some extra hp on a kobold and you can scare the crap out of some low level adventurers. The problem isn't the psion, its the attempt to make extremly specific encounters to characters that are by thier nature flexible generalists. Its like planning a groundling monster to challenge a druid, it makes no sense. any competent druid will just fly out of reach as a bird of some sort and demolish it with some simple attack spells.
Milo HoBo 09-03-07, 01:56 PM	...Psions don't need any special challenges, the mistake is in assuming that every character needs special challenges that are tailored to them. Something as simple as a troll or as complicated as a ranger in the woods sniping the party is equally challenging. Dm's don't need to keep track of the fiddly bits, just the end results. In the end, d6/lev damage from a wizard isn't much different from d6/lev from a druid/sorc/favored soul/wu jen/cleric/psion... While I do agree with you Lokiyn, I think Dazzer really enjoys designing encounters that are tailored to his party. That is important, because he is a DM. If he can't have fun, then it becomes a job. He might have more fun sticking to his guns (sorcerers), but it isn't quite the same. However, every time one tries something new, it takes awhile to adjust. IMHO, I think that psionics is a better system, once the group gets used to it. As such, I hope that Dazzer and his group try psionics again, but enjoyment is more important than change.
TikiMan 09-03-07, 02:45 PM	When a sorcerer in my games fights another sorcerer, I prepare the encounter in such a way that I know the PC cannot win in 3 rounds. That it will take almost every spell in his repertoire, thrice over to beat him down. Opening round disintegrate is met with absorption, countered with spell-turning, which is dispelled; I quicken a globe of invulnerability to stop enervation, he fires a polar ray, absorption eats most of it, some damage gets through, enemy sorcerer counters with a quickened enervation; followed by greater arcane fusion to hit the player with 2 more devasting spells, perhaps getting another buff spell upon himself during this; the player then casts arcane spell-surge.... Every spell gets used; I counter, they counter, they slightly effect, spells go wild and the fight is amazing.... It sounds to me like this sorcerer would do equally well against the group psion, unless they're a melee monkey, in which case your example fighter would be called for. I think it's cool that you make such specific challenges for your characters, but I don't think you need to adhere to 'class X must fight class X' quite so strictly. Especially when it's apparent you have a deep understanding of core D&D, but a more casual understanding of psionics. He can hide almost every one of his powers; thus not allowing a spell-craft (or psi-craft) check to identify it, and he essentially becomes very powerful because nobody can really tell who is making the effects happen, meaning he can get away with alot of things. where one of them simply readied it's action against the psion's powers.... You kinda just contradicted yourself there. Your second interpretation is correct. Just because a manifester is hiding his displays doesn't mean nobody realized he's manifesting. He still provokes AoO and whatnot. Based on previous 'wizards hiding their casting' rules, hiding your displays should only result in a -10 penalty to identify the power being used, as well as opening up possible uses for bluff/hide/etc. Oh, and having a monster ready it's actions to attack any time someone casts/manifests, and then not allowing that character any way to get away from said monster, is effectively gimping their character. You took 1/2 of the combat and aimed it directly at foiling anything he could possibly do, which is probably what upset him so much (though actually, spending focus to take 15 on a Con check should have let him get at least 1 manifesting through, and if he had any Swift/Immediate powers it's arguable those couldn't be interrupted). It's no different then putting a wizard in an anti-magic room, or stripping a fighter of all his gear. You expected him to have a way out, he never expected you to so totally shut down his manifesting ability. Now, if psions are common, this is harder to do. Feats, powers, and class-abilities can thwart the hiding of powers with a concentration check; people will realize what kind of magic X PC is using and enemies will come prepared. Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, Scrying, Divination, Gather Info, and a host of similar abilities all work equally well against Psions. Better then against a wizard actually, given that the psion can't easily change his powers known. So I realize, that wiz/sorc spells can be complicated. They can be time taking, and roll intensive. However, psionics are naturally bent towards complications. With the ability to augment, and the ability to choose difference types, and the fact that manifester level still counts towards effect, but augments can essentially add more oomph into that effect; it is naturally bent to be more time intensive (at least from a DM's viewpoint). Have you noticed that most powers that augment in an annoying fashion tend to augment in the SAME annoying fashion? Yes, learning the different energy types can be a bother, but once you have it memorized (or written on a 3X5 card), you have it memorized for pretty much every energy power in the book. Same goes for powers affecting different creature types. The same augment gets used in lots of different powers, so once you understand one power you understand a dozen more. This is in contrast to complicated wizard spells, which are almost all unique in their quirky annoyances. All this being said, I think your problem comes down to your DM style. Don't get me wrong; it sounds like you do a really great job of challenging your players, even at high levels. But your style mandates an intimate and total understanding of the rules being used, and is therefore limited to how much material you as DM can memorize. This makes almost any non-core material not suitable for your game, be it psionics, ToB, or even Spell Compendium. That's your trade off; great personal challenges for a limited menu. You can either not allow material you haven't assimilated, or you can let those who use fringe systems know that you won't be able to challenge them the same way you can challenge the core classes. Most people who play fringe systems should be able to accept these terms though, and their enjoyment of playing what they wanted to play will more then make up for it. Edit: Oh, and a good reason for allowing players to use systems you don't fully understand is so you eventually can fully understand them. After playing with psionics for a few months you'll probably find augments easier to remember, given that the psion will be using the same augments time and time again.
Ra-Tiel 09-03-07, 03:14 PM	Why do the psionic characters have to fight psionic creatures to have psionics in your game? [...] Who said something about fight other psionic creatures? I can see the point of the OP. While being "the only one of a certain kind" may be fun for a while, it gets quickly old. Without at least some psionic influence in the campaign world, there won't be any psionic items in found treasures. There likely won't be other psions you could learn powers from, or who could help with the research. And there certainly aren't targets you could use some of your abilities on (like eg metaconcert). A rather silly analogy: while being the only man on a world full of women may be fun for some time, it becomes a living nightmare for you the moment you realize that there are no buddies with whom you could "check out" some chicks, watch football, go to the cinema, and talk about fast girls and naked cars (it was that combo, right? I always get those two confused. :thinks: :P ).
Bacris 09-03-07, 03:17 PM	Who said something about fight other psionic creatures? I can see the point of the OP. While being "the only one of a certain kind" may be fun for a while, it gets quickly old. Because the OP specifically said "design encounters". Psionic and magical traps really have no distinction. Implementing psionic items is just rolling a die on a different treasure chart. Psionic organizations that the PCs won't fight are pretty easy to implement. Psionic encounters are a very different beast. Anyway, the OP doesn't really want to hear the counter to his argument, he's set in his stance, and that's fine - it's his call to make. Me? I think it's a cop-out.
Nephlite 09-03-07, 03:24 PM	Who said something about fight other psionic creatures? I can see the point of the OP. While being "the only one of a certain kind" may be fun for a while, it gets quickly old. Without at least some psionic influence in the campaign world, there won't be any psionic items in found treasures. There likely won't be other psions you could learn powers from, or who could help with the research. And there certainly aren't targets you could use some of your abilities on (like eg metaconcert). Wait, you learn other people's powers? Do you mean like the Erudite? I never did as a Psion: I learnt my own. And I wasn't only psions in world... Plus,psionic characters rarely only use psionic items: mostly magic too Headband of Intellect, yes plz.
CrimsonDeath 09-03-07, 03:49 PM	When a sorcerer in my games fights another sorcerer, I prepare the encounter in such a way that I know the PC cannot win in 3 rounds. That it will take almost every spell in his repertoire, thrice over to beat him down. Opening round disintegrate is met with absorption, countered with spell-turning, which is dispelled; I quicken a globe of invulnerability to stop enervation, he fires a polar ray, absorption eats most of it, some damage gets through, enemy sorcerer counters with a quickened enervation; followed by greater arcane fusion to hit the player with 2 more devasting spells, perhaps getting another buff spell upon himself during this; the player then casts arcane spell-surge.... Every spell gets used; I counter, they counter, they slightly effect, spells go wild and the fight is amazing.... I'm not sure Absorbtion will work on rays, since Absorbtion negates targeted spells while rays create effects rather than having targets.
Ra-Tiel 09-03-07, 05:02 PM	[...] Anyway, the OP doesn't really want to hear the counter to his argument, he's set in his stance, and that's fine - it's his call to make. Me? I think it's a cop-out. Please don't take this personally, but when I read things like this, I'm so glad that psionics is not core. "It's there, you have to use it otherwise you s*ck!" Well, not exactly, but sort of in a similar tone. The OP has presented more than enough reasons as to why he doesn't allow psionics in his game. Why is it that most people from the psionics board just cannot accept that, and must go ahead and preach others how superior/easy/balanced/innovative/creative/lightwight/fun/clever/etc/pp psionics was compared to magic and try at all costs to convice (or should I say "convert"?) others of their opinion? What's wrong with saying "If it just doesn't work for your game, fine. Whatever floats your boat." and be done with it? I don't say it's wrong giving advice, but being overly excessive with it to the point of - almost - fantacism doesn't actually help at all. ;) Wait, you learn other people's powers? Do you mean like the Erudite? I never did as a Psion: I learnt my own. And I wasn't only psions in world... I was more thinking along the lines of psychic chirurgery, or somebody (I know this is a fluff point, but still) assisting you with researching a new power. Plus,psionic characters rarely only use psionic items: mostly magic too Headband of Intellect, yes plz. So, and where do all the little powerstones/dorjes/psicrowns/psychoactive skins come from? Does a pseudonatural stork drop them in your mailbox? :thinks: :P Of course, wasting feats and time on item creation to make those items that are useful to you because you'll never actually find them doesn't s*ck, does it? While Mr. Wizard is running happily around with his teleportation reserve feat and his found staff, and Mrs Cleric enjoys her new shiny Divine Metamagic while wielding her new scepter, you're sitting at home with your Craft Psicrown spending the next 3 weeks crafting your personal crown instead of actually doing something fun.
Lokiyn 09-03-07, 05:24 PM	Please don't take this personally, but when I read things like this, I'm so glad that psionics is not core. "It's there, you have to use it otherwise you s*ck!" Well, not exactly, but sort of in a similar tone. The OP has presented more than enough reasons as to why he doesn't allow psionics in his game. Why is it that most people from the psionics board just cannot accept that, and must go ahead and preach others how superior/easy/balanced/innovative/creative/lightwight/fun/clever/etc/pp psionics was compared to magic and try at all costs to convice (or should I say "convert"?) others of their opinion? What's wrong with saying "If it just doesn't work for your game, fine. Whatever floats your boat." and be done with it? I don't say it's wrong giving advice, but being overly excessive with it to the point of - almost - fantacism doesn't actually help at all. ;) I was more thinking along the lines of psychic chirurgery, or somebody (I know this is a fluff point, but still) assisting you with researching a new power. So, and where do all the little powerstones/dorjes/psicrowns/psychoactive skins come from? Does a pseudonatural stork drop them in your mailbox? :thinks: :P Of course, wasting feats and time on item creation to make those items that are useful to you because you'll never actually find them doesn't s*ck, does it? While Mr. Wizard is running happily around with his teleportation reserve feat and his found staff, and Mrs Cleric enjoys her new shiny Divine Metamagic while wielding her new scepter, you're sitting at home with your Craft Psicrown spending the next 3 weeks crafting your personal crown instead of actually doing something fun. Other way around in fact, The arguments are fueled by the concept that there is a legitamate reason to not allow psionics that is somehow more valid applied to psionics than to say wizards. If someone says, i don't like psionics, for no other reason than i don't like them, most of the time its one or two posts of a sort of "well you are missing out" then it starts to die. When the attempt is made to try and tout some sort of objective point than can be proven or disproven i.e. psionics is broken, psionics is sci-fi, psionics is complicated, psionics ate my baby, etc. then the arguments kick in. In this case the argument is two fold Psionics shouldn't be included, because i can't take the time to integrate psionics into the game worldas Shown, you don't need to Psionics are objectivly more difficult to design tailored encounters forAs stated the End result of psionics is almost functionally identical to the end result of magic, anything that challenges one will, for the most part, challenge the other equally
Bacris 09-03-07, 06:06 PM	Please don't take this personally, but when I read things like this, I'm so glad that psionics is not core. "It's there, you have to use it otherwise you s*ck!" Well, not exactly, but sort of in a similar tone. No offense taken - I don't let text-based conversation irk me, because the nuances so easily get lost that it's easy to mis-interpret a message. What's wrong with saying "If it just doesn't work for your game, fine. Whatever floats your boat." and be done with it? I don't say it's wrong giving advice, but being overly excessive with it to the point of - almost - fantacism doesn't actually help at all. ;) It's not fanatacism. His reason in the first post is that he finds designing psionic encounters to be too difficult. That's fine! I have no problem with that - for a DM who is comfortable with spells / spell-like abilities, and doesn't want to memorize psionics, I have no qualms - DMs already have more than enough work as it is. My point is that psionic encounters are not a must to incorporate psionics into a game. Using that as a reason, to me, is a cop-out, instead of saying "you know what? I just don't feel that psionics has a place in my campaign world. You're welcome to play something else, but in this campaign, not psionics." I've gamed with DMs that have said that. It usually doesn't last long, but I respect that stance and will game under it. The argument that psionic encounters are a must in order to have players using psionics, to me, is a cop-out. I'm sorry, that's just how I see it. Nobody is forcing you to have psionic enemies (at least, they shouldn't be... If a player is forcing you to have psionic enemies, perhaps the problem is the player). Throw a mind-flayer at the party - or a duergar fighter - or a soulknife - if you want to. I see no repercussions of not having manifesters as enemies. Introducing psionic organizations - if they're not antagonists - should be pretty easy. Hey, look, a merchant's store specializing in crystals! There you go. The player just encountered another psionic individual without requiring massive work & planning. The all-or-nothing philosophy is what bothers me - that argument is flawed in my view. It shouldn't have to be "every creature is psionic" or "no creatures are psionic" - a happy medium should be easy to reach. But, that's just my opinion :)
Nephlite 09-03-07, 06:18 PM	I was more thinking along the lines of psychic chirurgery, or somebody (I know this is a fluff point, but still) assisting you with researching a new power. That would be sa house rule to get assistance for research. It doesn't say thing that is allowed. So, and where do all the little powerstones/dorjes/psicrowns/psychoactive skins come from? Does a pseudonatural stork drop them in your mailbox? :thinks: :P Skins= craft universal, the best one: the magic version of wonderous. A good choice. Plus, you could make a killing in prices if you were only one. If not, go to store buy them. I meant not as treasure drops. You can still buy them. He said as treasure: nothing about not possible to buy.