Post/Author/DateTime	Post
teno_d 10-27-07, 04:31 PM	First off I've been a long time lurker on the forums (packed full of great info!). Thanks for all the effort some of you guys put into keeping up with the new info - it's invaluable! I've been playing my first Psion for a few games now (Telepath - focusing on Dominate + Illithid Heritage feats) and at 6th level I took my first level of Thrallherd. Well, now at 8th level the DM decided that the amount of believers etc. I get are interfering with the group/game (he did ok the prestige class originally /shrug) so I am having to redo my last 3 levels (6-8). I can also take away my Illithid Heritage feats if I need to ( I have 3 of them) since the whole idea behind my character is kind of getting trashed. Another issue I am having is he is jacking up everything's will saves to save against my save or suck spells. It's really frustrating me too. He plays a melee combat heavy campaign, and I'm generally always the lone spellcaster/manifester in my group. Basically the whole idea I had for my character is getting thrown out the window. So my questions are, since he won't allow my Thrallherd and is unfairly thwarting my mind control attempts at times, wtf should I be doing instead? Roll up a fighter? lol I have Crystal Shard & Ego Whip I can use when he does that - but if I wanted to play direct damage the whole game I would have just stuck with my last character (blaster sorcerer). My Dm doesn't like alot of dipping into other classes, so I'm really limited to base class + 1 I was thinking about just taking the 3 levels as more Psion levels to get my BAB up to +4 and then going into the Illithid Slayer PrC for the obvious benefits, but I'm not sure. Anyways sorry for my mini rant/ramblings but any suggestions would be appreciated! An annoyed psion
Grod_The_Giant 10-27-07, 04:46 PM	Well, speaking as a DM, sometimes a character that looked OK on paper turns out to be really powerful in-game. I have heard that Thrallherd is a really powerful PrC, so I can see his reasoning in denying you the class. And he is giving you the option to rebuild your character, so he's not being unreasonable. Pumping up the will saves...that's a valid reaction too. It's no fun as a DM when one player blows through all your encounters with little trouble. And...think of it this way: you spend half an hour or more creating a powerful 'boss' for a dungeon, working out all the attacks, spells, and stuff...then, at the table, it's dominated and enslaved in the first round. Wouldn't that be annoying? It seems to me that's the situation there would be. Anyway, I would recommend varying your power types a bit, so pumping up one save won't nullify you, and pick powers that support your party mates.
moebius00 10-27-07, 07:33 PM	1. If your DM is cheating by fudging Save rolls, find a new DM. 2. If you DM is upping the Will Saves of your opponents through official WotC equipment, he's being a good DM and making the game more challenging. If he's doing it in ways that are "questionable" (everyone you run into having great custom Will Save items, even if they have never met you), he is being a bad DM. 3. Have you thought about compromising with your DM? Saying the followers would stay "off-screen" (running your estate or whatever) and that you would only use the cohort? Because 20 summoned creatures getting to go every turn, every battle is a distraction, and hurts things for the other players.
teno_d 10-27-07, 08:45 PM	Thanks for the responses guys. Grod - I totally understand it from the DM point of view as well. I wouldn't say I am an experienced DM, but I have DM'd several games myself. As to your scenario, he would generally put us up against boss creatures I wouldn't be able to dominate anyways, unless I rolled a nat 20. However, after just our first play session where I successfully dominated a regular frost giant warrior - everything, including the fodder (orcs, gnolls, trolls etc) magically had bonuses to their will saves not accounted for by race, class feats or gear. I kind of have my powers set up for the scenario when I can't use my mind affecting powers. The problem is I dont even really get a chance to use them anymore (mind affecting, that is). Moebius- It's scenario 2, for the most part. Bonus to will saves that are unaccounted for. The only time I had the Thralls present with me on the field was when they were first encountered in the field (never had a chance to put them away anywhere!). He then set up an encounter where my party (4 other players) was ambushed by 6 gnolls with level 15 ranger templates, justifying the higher CR (our group CR average was around 9) was due to the 5 level one guys and my cohort standing around me. Even if they were level 15 ranger gnolls, their base save should have been +5, not +10 which is what he had them at. I was just a little miffed that 10 minutes after I got my first thrall/believers he killed them all out of what is seemingly spite. Sorry for the tangent! Anyways, I just said I would reroll the last 3 levels and remove Thrallherd, and possibly my Illithid heritage feats and redefine my character concept. The whole reason I made my psion was because in his campaign, he gives out big bonus melee weapons/armor like they are candy, making the melee fighters much more powerful then their level suggests. As such, I was playing the lone blaster sorcerer in our party (I was level 8 when I retired him) and I was still doing much, much, much less damage then every single person in the party (who were all melee types - fighter, rogue, zerker..etc) The way he hands out equipment to them made magic seem much weaker then it should be relative to the group. Now I know his mechanics are inherently flawed and unbalance the game, but this is really my only gaming group thus the only option I have. I really dont want to just give up and play a melee build because I always have and always will play the finger waggling types. My solution was to roll this save or die psion, since his handing out of gear always unbalances my damage compared to everyone else. I thought battlefield control was a great way to contribute more to the party. As you can see by my original post though, that didn't last too long. I just wanted to break free from the direct damage mediocrity i put forth as my blaster sorcerer compared to my overpowered chainsaw melee party, and now it seems like I am being forced RIGHT back into it. As my title suggests, now I am just trying to figure out which direction to take this telepath as my options seem rather limited to me at this point!
PhaedrusXY 10-27-07, 08:47 PM	Are you actually taking your followers into combat with you? As the previous poster said, I'd suggest using them for "off screen" things, like running businesses to make you money, taking over the government of small cities, etc. If I were a DM, I wouldn't want a Thrallherd who had a horde of people participating in combat, either. It just makes things to complicated, and isn't fair to the other players who have to sit there while you roll 30 attack rolls, or whatever. Edit: I see you replied at the same time as I posted. Your DM sounds annoying as hell. I really don't know what to suggest to you. I don't think I'd play under such a DM, if he's at all like you describe...
kyeudo 10-27-07, 10:59 PM	Your DM needs shot with a hammergun. I haven't ever needed to get one, or I'd loan you mine. Anyone got the new model?
CrimsonDeath 10-28-07, 03:55 AM	Does he realize that killing your believers is pointless because you just get new ones?
Echoes of Deception 10-28-07, 04:20 AM	Speaking from the game master's perspective, I can understand why your DM would want to make the game more challenging for you. I can also understand the temptation to create impromptu stats for creatures you come across. But he shouldn't be doing these things if he still wants to claim he's being fair. Unless, of course, you've been metagaming. But then, you've got fault all across the board. But you want things to do from here. So, I would suggest finding a compromise with your game master. Perhaps the two of you would be willing to line item veto some of the class traits. Or maybe you should consider working all of your thralls togerther as a swarm, if you have more than 20 of them and, if your game master is willing to swing that. On the other hand, if you've managed to put together so many thralls after such a short period of time, maybe you want to find a more experienced game master altogether. Otherwise, look to other people, who know these PrC thingies better than I do. Sorry I don't have something so relevant to your current needs.
Callix 10-28-07, 05:00 AM	I'm sorry. You took the Illithid Heritage feats and your DM thought you were too good? Thrallherd is nice, but it's not game-breaking unless you cheese it out. Your DM just wants everyone hacking and slashing, and there's not that much you can do to counteract that. Staying pure Psion is a pretty good option if you keep your character, and you can even hold on to the Illithid feats if you want and keep a similar theme. Re the gnolls: One Gnoll Ranger 15 is CR 16. Six gnolls are around EL 21. A party of four ECL 9's with a thrall (ECL 8) and twenty NPC-classed ECL 1 believers is roughly EL 14 (assuming 20 NPC-class 1's are roughly EL9, but the CR system broke down long ago here). That should've been a brutal slaughter for everyone, and the DM must've pulled his punches to get you out alive.
angellis_ater 10-28-07, 12:31 PM	Well, depending on what kind of Character you want, taking 1 level of Ranger and going for the Illithid Slayer would be kinda cool, especially if you DO retain you Heritage feats - atleast from a "coolness/flavor" perspective.
sijigs 10-28-07, 06:08 PM	1. If your DM is cheating by fudging Save rolls, find a new DM. 2. If you DM is upping the Will Saves of your opponents through official WotC equipment, he's ..... 3. Have you thought about compromising with your DM? Saying the followers would stay "off-screen" (running your estate or whatever) and that you would only use the cohort? Because 20 summoned creatures getting to go every turn, every battle is a distraction, and hurts things for the other players. I'd go with option 3. I think your DM approved something that looked okay at first glance and it may be getting out of his depth. Maybe it's his fault, maybe not but in any case you guys need to talk. Sounds like Marriage Counselling 101 (not that I'm married..) LOL
Sagetim 10-28-07, 06:41 PM	I'd go with option 3. I think your DM approved something that looked okay at first glance and it may be getting out of his depth. Maybe it's his fault, maybe not but in any case you guys need to talk. Sounds like Marriage Counselling 101 (not that I'm married..) LOL I think you should try and convince the dm that the thrallherd isn't broken. But the fact that he hands out magical weapons like candy is. Did your minions have magical weapons? yes? they shouldn't have had anything better than maybe some mundane stuff. At best some chainmail shield, and sword or something. remember: you have to fund gear for these minions. Now, maybe you should ask if you can have your first level minions be experts or similar classes only? each of them with a skill that they do really well (like blacksmiths, weapon smiths, sages, scribes, etc). If you don't have the level one's, then you shouldn't be able to really lag the battle down with a bunch of rolls for your minions. Also: what the (censored) is wrong with this DM? he sent level 15 gnolls at a level 8 party? was he trying to kill you? I mean think about it: how the HELL does 5...yes, 5! level 1 warriors add up to a 7 challenge rating bonus against you? What? were they outfitted with artifacts and divine ranks? I mean...what the hell? you have what? maybe ten or so minions. They're packmules. They won't stand a chance against anything. Not unless you load them up with the gear that he's been handing out like it's 1999. The only way that level 1 npc classed warriors can stand a chance against things that you would be fighting would be if they were a) buffed with spells like mass enlarge person and stone skin. b) if they had magical weapons and armor and items that brought their AC up to a high enough point that they wouldn't be hit often enough to have their low hp kill them c) If, for some unholy reason you used metaconcert to link up with them and make a super mind thing...which would require them to be psions, and thus exclude any level 1 minions from being able to do so (pretty sure there's a trade of 1 pc class = 2 levels of minion.) d) how do level 15 gnolls equal a fair challenge against 5 level 1 warriors, and a party of level 8's? wait...I've got it. He used the almighty power of fuzzy math. He counted each of your characters as CR 9. so that's cr 13 for a party of four (9+9 =11 9+9= 11 11+11= 13) Then he adjucated that the henchmen were somehow worth bumping it up 3 more challenge ratings... you could also say: if he's going to hand out magic weapons like candy and attack the party with creatures that are obscenely out of the challenge rating, you should be allowed to have a personal army to ensure your own survival.
TheKeyofE 10-28-07, 07:49 PM	I'd go with option 3. I think your DM approved something that looked okay at first glance and it may be getting out of his depth. Maybe it's his fault, maybe not but in any case you guys need to talk. Sounds like Marriage Counselling 101 (not that I'm married..) LOL As Sagetim also said, you really need to talk to the DM and find out what's up. It sounds like his ideas of balance are a little screwed up. But be sure to do this OUT OF GAME! Don't do this in game because not only will it mess up the other players' fun, but there is a higher chance of tempers flaring and Bad Things (tm) happening.
Sinfire Titan 10-28-07, 08:38 PM	Your DM needs shot with a hammergun. I haven't ever needed to get one, or I'd loan you mine. Anyone got the new model? I have the White Storm Charged Particle Cannon. Would that help?
Sagetim 10-29-07, 01:36 AM	oh right, and I would suggest redoing from level one as a soulknife and take prc levels of soulbow. Then kill things with MIND BULLETS. MMMMmmmmm Mind Bullets.
Callix 10-29-07, 05:01 AM	how do level 15 gnolls equal a fair challenge against 5 level 1 warriors, and a party of level 8's? wait...I've got it. He used the almighty power of fuzzy math. He counted each of your characters as CR 9. so that's cr 13 for a party of four (9+9 =11 9+9= 11 11+11= 13) Then he adjucated that the henchmen were somehow worth bumping it up 3 more challenge ratings... That would mean the party is suited to facing *one* CR 16 Gnoll. They faced *six*. See my earlier post for a full analysis of the "by-the-book" EL of the two sides. The Gnolls are *seven* ELs higher than the party, even with the mooks added in; twenty Warrior 1's "add up" to EL 9, which, when added to the 5-man party (including the thrall) makes 2.5 doublings, for +5 EL => about 14 or 15. They were then pitted against an ECL 16 enemy party. *They* should've been an easy encounter for the *gnolls*.
kyeudo 10-29-07, 11:55 AM	I have the White Storm Charged Particle Cannon. Would that help? Depends. Is it possible to survive a shot from said Cannon?
Lycanthromancer 10-29-07, 05:12 PM	That's nothing. A friend of mine made a 16th level paladin that did more than 2000 damage regularly against evil outsiders when he critical'd. He took out a demigod by himself twice in a single battle with a well-timed critical hit and a subsequent use of a Ring of Three Wishes. He took it out in a single hit. The demigod in question had a contingencied true resurrection, AND WE HAD TO KILL HIM AGAIN. Luckily, the player's next action was to make a wish: "I wish my next strike were as potent as my last." Yes, the DM sent us after a demigod, and yes, we won (but only because of that). That particular DM was E.V.I.L. All the moreso when you remember that he handed out greater artifacts like candy to his favorite players, and the rest of us were lucky if we got a masterwork runcible spoon (to split amongst us, no less). [edit] Not to mention that I could take virtually any creature in 3.5 out with a single 15th level wizard using core-only spells, so long as I got initiative on him. 1,008,000d6 points of damage with two mid-level spells. I had to come up with combos like this to survive in that particular campaign. Also, check the How is magic not broken, again? link in my signature for more details. Yeah, that DM was a bastard.
teshen 10-30-07, 03:19 AM	Well, teno d... your DM is a tool... And the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) articles have a few really good prcs. I'm fond of the idea of combining the Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c)and the Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d)... although I've never gotten to play that combination in a game.
Wizard Random 10-30-07, 03:10 PM	If you're looking for something nice in a melee heavy game don't go Slayer as you won't be as good as everyone else and just die in combat. Try using Powers (even with a regular psion) that can split the enemy, like Ectoplasmic wall. It doesn't matter how much damage you do as you are not bringing it down, if you want to stay a Telepath try loosing you're 5th level feat and take the Telepathy variant from minds Eye, then take Mind Sight. Might prove useful If you want some good damage use Telekinetic powers and throw things at creatures, you can do a lot of D6 damage that they can't stop. Astral Constructs? Be a Uneelie Fey with the Winter Choice, as everything within 10ft of you (20 if you take dilute aura) takes -1 to ALL saves per point of CHA bonus. if you got a 30 Charisma then thats -10 Mr. 15th level ranger. Or maybe a Paladin of Tyranny + Blackguard thats a soild -4 all the time. (take leadership and get a cohort) Mind Fog also gives -10 to will saves and wisdom based checks, just UMD a wand of it. Ectoplasmic Cocoon is a great power to use if they fail their Ref save. Also remember Vigor + Share Pain (on psicrystal) is a wonderful combo to keep you alive. King of Smack? These are just a few ideas, but I am sure other could expound on them
EonEdge 10-30-07, 06:37 PM	don't know if it's posted in here but find some psionic characters to use metaconcert with(use diplomacy to convince them then dominate them with it and keep them dominated). Metaconcert with 9 other psionic characters adds +10 to save dcs. My thrallherd at tenth level if all goes as planned will have save dc of 34 for dominate: 10 + 6(20 int plus headband of int +2) + 10(metaconcert with believers) + 5(dominate augmented) + 1(born leader feat from Arcana Evoloved adds 1 to save dcs for compulsion) + 2(greater psionic endowment) at tenth level). If you're not a thrallherd you can do it at 9th(substitute the illthid feat that adds to compulsion dcs for born leader). This also works for other save powers too. Your DM has to really do some back breaking acrobatics to make a reasonable explanation why no one can fail these saves. I know finding the psions could be hard without thrallherd but hirelings could always work, or dominate every level 1 psion you come accross
Sinfire Titan 10-30-07, 06:49 PM	Depends. Is it possible to survive a shot from said Cannon? Not unless you press A! Jump fool! What are you doing hitting select? You don't got time to make a profile! Press A!
okpokalypse 10-31-07, 04:20 PM	I think you have a few options... The simplest is to keep your Psion (Telepath) and just make sure to take a few good energy powers to be a "Blaster" until you reach discipline maturity. IE. Mind Switch, True. At that point you can do whatever you want by finding a good host body with great stats / attacks / Ex abilities and go from there. Of course, that's L17 - and a loooong way of from L8. Another fairly simple option is to just take an alternate discipline that fits into what you want to do... You can go with a Shaper and have a beefy Astral Construct acting as your Melee proxy while you blast energy spells or buff it. You can just go Kineticist and be a blaster. Or you can combine a bit of everything... Stay Telepath and at L3 take the feat to gain an extra power (Astral Construct) so you have your own personal "tank" and at L6 do the same thing with Energy Missile so you've got a potent "Blasting" power on hand. * Where prestige classes are concerned, it's rough. There's not many great ones for a Psion out there. I've written a few custom ones myself for various Disciplines if you'd like some to see if your DM might allow it. They're all full manifester progression and some discipline-style bonuses in the progression. Nothing spectacular. They're mostly modelled off of other PrCs. Like the Augur which is an extension of the Seer Discipline and modelled off the Divine Oracle. If those don't float your boat and you feel compelled to fall into the melee archetype, I'd highly suggest Psychic Warrior. They are by far the most potent Melee base class because of battlefield control - and at the high end, they get great save-or-suck abilities. A basic series of Power's a Psychic Warrior will learn are: - (L1) [L1] Expansion - (L1) [L2] Precognition, Defensive - (L1) [L3] Precognition, Offensive - (L2) [L4] Psionic Lion's Charge - (L2) [L5] Hustle - (L3) [L7] Empathic Transfer, Hostile - (L4) [L10] Dimension Door - (L5) [L13] Perfect Riposte - (L6) [L16] Blackstone Hammer By L13 you have the BattleField Control Combo that will leave your DM wishing he'd have let you just play the Save Or Suck / Thrallherder. Hustle (Swift Power - Gives an Extra Move Action). Dimension Door (Augmented to Manifest as a Move Action - Taking along 4 Additional Creatures). You still have a Full Attack action, as do all your allies that came through with you. Screw having to cut through stuff to get to your target. Go right to it and end it with 5 Melee'rs going Full Attack on it. You can also use the extra power concept from above to gain powers like "Schism" "Anticipatory Strike" and "Metamorphosis" to supplement your already great power-base. Hell, add in a save-or-suck just for spite ;).
PhaedrusXY 10-31-07, 04:22 PM	You don't need True Mind Switch. You can get the same results from Astral Seed + normal Mind Switch. Of course, since he's a Telepath instead of Shaper, that still requires 18th level...
okpokalypse 10-31-07, 04:54 PM	You don't need True Mind Switch. You can get the same results from Astral Seed + normal Mind Switch. Of course, since he's a Telepath instead of Shaper, that still requires 18th level... There's Pro's and Con's to that. The Pro is that you can take the Shaper path and eventually get Genesis - which is normally offlimits to a Telepath. The Con is that you're completely exposed to DM intervention as your new self is forming after you first Mind Switched, Manifested the Seed and then presumably killed yourself (and your mind-switch victim). Even beyond that, Astral Seed forces you to lose a level. Mind Switch, True makes you lose 10K XP and only makes you lose a level if the object of the switch dies. But that it quite easily avoidable through a number of means. So it's just a bit more cost-effective in terms of penalties to acquire.
Sagetim 10-31-07, 06:59 PM	There's Pro's and Con's to that. The Pro is that you can take the Shaper path and eventually get Genesis - which is normally offlimits to a Telepath. The Con is that you're completely exposed to DM intervention as your new self is forming after you first Mind Switched, Manifested the Seed and then presumably killed yourself (and your mind-switch victim). Even beyond that, Astral Seed forces you to lose a level. Mind Switch, True makes you lose 10K XP and only makes you lose a level if the object of the switch dies. But that it quite easily avoidable through a number of means. So it's just a bit more cost-effective in terms of penalties to acquire. yes, you put the victim into a vat of quintessence. mmmm mmm quintessence. Preserving anything since the dawn of time.
teno_d 11-01-07, 12:28 AM	Thanks for all your suggestions guys, they have all been really helpful! Well, since the DM absolutely wanted me to drop Thrallherd, I told him ok. I just traded my last 3 levels of TH for more Psion levels. I liked the Mindsight suggestion (as I had already picked up the 5th level minds eye Telepathy class feature to control my Thrall/Believers) so I will definitely pick up that feat. I don't really want to go the blaster route since my last character I gave up to start this one was a blaster, although I do see the necessity of having at least one energy based power in addition to Crystal Shard.. I also liked the Mind Switch stuff, I can see the fun in that! I still might take the Slayer PrC seeing as I'd only lose one manifesting level, gain double the HP (etc. etc.) and as a previous poster mentioned - it woulbe kinda cool if I keep the Illithid Heritage feats as flavor for that purpose too =D (unless there's a pretty strong argument as to why I shouldn't!) Anyways...thanks again everyone ~
Lokiyn 11-01-07, 02:45 AM	Try the Body Leech (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a) After all if you can't eat the brains draining them of life is a viable option as well.
okpokalypse 11-01-07, 10:49 AM	I also liked the Mind Switch stuff, I can see the fun in that! My personal favorite Mind Switch is the following: Lilitu Demon. You get a 17 Str, 26 Dex, 18 Con. You get the non-(Su) typed abilities of the creature, which includes: - Immunity to Electricity & Poison - Resistance (10) to Acid, Cold and Fire - Telepathy - SR 9 + HD You get a 40' Move, 60' DarkVision and DR 10 / Cold Iron or Good. And Last, but Certainly Not Least... You get all the (Ex) Abilities of the form: Item Use: You can use any magic device as if you had successfully used the Use Magic Device skill. [That's right, Always Pass UMD] Mock Divinity: You cast spells as a 9th Level Cleric except that you use Charisma to determine Bonus spells & Save DC. You have access to the Demonic and Trickery Domains. You cannot spontaneously cast cure / inflict spells or turn / rebuke undead. So... Now you're a Full Progression Psion with a L9 Cleric Progression, infinite UMD, Innate SR, DR and Immunities / Resistances - as well as Permanent Telepathy. If you want to, you can use CoDzilla spells and be a melee beast. What's even better is that with Schism, you can manifest two powers, or cast & manifest in the same round. A Quicken Rod means you can Mainfest + Cast + Full Attack each Round :). You'll want to key-word contingency a full-buffed Precognition, Offensive as well... So before any item buffs, after 1 round of prepping, you could get off Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Expansion (Augmented) and trigger Precognition, Offensive via Contingency. That's... +2 Size Categories (15' Reach) +Fighter BAB +10 Str (+6 Enhance Bonus, +4 Size Bonus) +3 Attack & Damage; +Extra Attack at Max BAB (Morale Bonus) +7 Attack (Insight Bonus) That's Round 1. At L17 that would be... +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 and have +11 On Damage from Str (27) & RWotF - before Item Bonuses. More if it's a 2-Handed Weapon. It's pretty mean all told... And if you go an alternate round of Astral Seed + Mind Switch to gain the Lilitu Powers, you could take the path to get Metamorphosis, Greater and a Feat to inheret one (Su) power from your form. Then you change into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and take Dual Actions. Now you have two Full Round Actions (Two Minds) + 2 Schisms (2 more Standard Actions - one for each mind). By the 2nd Round you could be taking a Move Action + Quickened Spell + Power/Spell as a Full Round Action; Manifesting two Powers via Schism; and still have a Full Round Action left over. Or you could just have two full sets of Full Attack Actions and still do two Schism'd Manifestations and a Quickened Spell. Hmmm, how wrong is it to effectively cast 3 spells and take 10 Attacks in a round? :D