Do Elans and Elves Dream? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do Elans and Elves Dream? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MnemonicSV
07-23-07, 03:10 AM As a DM who is gearing up for a psionic campaign which makes heavy use of the Region of Dreams, I was pretty psyched to see the dreamfane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20070711a&page=1) monster (the timing couldn't be better).

The dreamfane's Dream Phase (Ex) ability raised some questions for me... namely, could an Elan or an Elf see one? Both races use a sleep-like meditative trance in order to rest for 4 hours... but it gets a little vague when it comes to actually dreaming (do they form a dreamscape in the Region of Dreams?). Elans are mum on the issue; Although it says Elves dream in the PHB, the flavour text implies they are really more "mental exercises" than typical dreams.

I have already come to my own ruling, but I am genuinely curious to know how others rule on this matter. Do Elans and/or Elves actually dream, and can they perceive a dreamfane?
Andramadus
07-23-07, 03:24 AM My personal opinion is a simple, NO

Because elves are immune to sleep and elans restore their minds with meditation, not sleeping, thus no dreaming. If you wanted you could just make it a imagination thing sinse dreams are all in your mind anyway.

Anyways I am no expert but I say NO.
MnemonicSV
07-23-07, 04:10 AM I eventually ruled "no" as well. I personally couldn't see how mental exercises or standard meditation would translate into dreaming.

For campaign purposes, I later added a new use of the Concentration skill (trained only): "enter dream state." This was just to allow non-sleeping races/creatures a chance to play in the Region of Dreams, but even then I still ruled they could not see a dreamfane.
BlaineTog
07-23-07, 04:26 AM Well, in the dream and nightmare spells, it seems to make a distinction between creatures that don't sleep and creatures that don't dream. So, the way I'd rule is that neither dreams normally, but if an elan is put to sleep, it will dream, and each race may be able to achieve what is in effect a dream-like state, such as through that concentration check.
Fafnir
07-23-07, 08:42 AM If I remember well, it is stated in Races of the Wild that elves actually dream during their trance, but it's something closer to a controlled stream of consciousness.

I'd rule both elves and elans as being able to dream, as dreaming is a phenomenon of some mechanical importance in-game and creatures unable to do so are explicitly marked as such. See the kalashtar entry in the ECS for an example.
Mathus
07-23-07, 01:22 PM I second the argument of Fafnir in that Elves and Elan can dream.

I would also rule that an Elan or Elf could avoid entering their dreamstate if they so chose but that they would have to tell me that they are not entering their deamstate in their trance.

Otherwise assume they are dreaming in their four hours of rest.
forsaken1111
07-23-07, 01:44 PM I agree with Fafnir as well. Creatures immune to dream type spells are specifically marked, such as the Kalashtar or the Dreamscarred races.
Mercurius
07-23-07, 10:38 PM Considering that there are a few spells that actually affect dreamers, and that they call out that elves cannot be affected by them, I would say elves don't dream.

This is fundamental to how elves fit into my campaign setting, actually, and is the impetus behind my prohibition of psionic powers to elves.
forsaken1111
07-23-07, 10:39 PM Considering that there are a few spells that actually affect dreamers, and that they call out that elves cannot be affected by them, I would say elves don't dream.

This is fundamental to how elves fit into my campaign setting, actually, and is the impetus behind my prohibition of psionic powers to elves.

But if an elf were somehow put to sleep despite their immunity, would they dream?

I assume that if an elan were magically put to sleep, he/she would indeed dream.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-24-07, 01:39 AM I'd say elves don't dream (and are treated as such by a dreamfane), due to trance. Elans have a very similar trance ability, and thus are also treated as creatures that don't dream by a dreamfane.

Yeah, this is one of those things with no real in-game effect that was overlooked in the various Psionics-related books that WotC has published. As a DM, you have to make these decisions consistently (treating elves and elans the same) or you make things way more complicated than they need to be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MnemonicSV 07-23-07, 03:10 AM	As a DM who is gearing up for a psionic campaign which makes heavy use of the Region of Dreams, I was pretty psyched to see the dreamfane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20070711a&page=1) monster (the timing couldn't be better). The dreamfane's Dream Phase (Ex) ability raised some questions for me... namely, could an Elan or an Elf see one? Both races use a sleep-like meditative trance in order to rest for 4 hours... but it gets a little vague when it comes to actually dreaming (do they form a dreamscape in the Region of Dreams?). Elans are mum on the issue; Although it says Elves dream in the PHB, the flavour text implies they are really more "mental exercises" than typical dreams. I have already come to my own ruling, but I am genuinely curious to know how others rule on this matter. Do Elans and/or Elves actually dream, and can they perceive a dreamfane?
Andramadus 07-23-07, 03:24 AM	My personal opinion is a simple, NO Because elves are immune to sleep and elans restore their minds with meditation, not sleeping, thus no dreaming. If you wanted you could just make it a imagination thing sinse dreams are all in your mind anyway. Anyways I am no expert but I say NO.
MnemonicSV 07-23-07, 04:10 AM	I eventually ruled "no" as well. I personally couldn't see how mental exercises or standard meditation would translate into dreaming. For campaign purposes, I later added a new use of the Concentration skill (trained only): "enter dream state." This was just to allow non-sleeping races/creatures a chance to play in the Region of Dreams, but even then I still ruled they could not see a dreamfane.
BlaineTog 07-23-07, 04:26 AM	Well, in the dream and nightmare spells, it seems to make a distinction between creatures that don't sleep and creatures that don't dream. So, the way I'd rule is that neither dreams normally, but if an elan is put to sleep, it will dream, and each race may be able to achieve what is in effect a dream-like state, such as through that concentration check.
Fafnir 07-23-07, 08:42 AM	If I remember well, it is stated in Races of the Wild that elves actually dream during their trance, but it's something closer to a controlled stream of consciousness. I'd rule both elves and elans as being able to dream, as dreaming is a phenomenon of some mechanical importance in-game and creatures unable to do so are explicitly marked as such. See the kalashtar entry in the ECS for an example.
Mathus 07-23-07, 01:22 PM	I second the argument of Fafnir in that Elves and Elan can dream. I would also rule that an Elan or Elf could avoid entering their dreamstate if they so chose but that they would have to tell me that they are not entering their deamstate in their trance. Otherwise assume they are dreaming in their four hours of rest.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 01:44 PM	I agree with Fafnir as well. Creatures immune to dream type spells are specifically marked, such as the Kalashtar or the Dreamscarred races.
Mercurius 07-23-07, 10:38 PM	Considering that there are a few spells that actually affect dreamers, and that they call out that elves cannot be affected by them, I would say elves don't dream. This is fundamental to how elves fit into my campaign setting, actually, and is the impetus behind my prohibition of psionic powers to elves.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 10:39 PM	Considering that there are a few spells that actually affect dreamers, and that they call out that elves cannot be affected by them, I would say elves don't dream. This is fundamental to how elves fit into my campaign setting, actually, and is the impetus behind my prohibition of psionic powers to elves. But if an elf were somehow put to sleep despite their immunity, would they dream? I assume that if an elan were magically put to sleep, he/she would indeed dream.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-24-07, 01:39 AM	I'd say elves don't dream (and are treated as such by a dreamfane), due to trance. Elans have a very similar trance ability, and thus are also treated as creatures that don't dream by a dreamfane. Yeah, this is one of those things with no real in-game effect that was overlooked in the various Psionics-related books that WotC has published. As a DM, you have to make these decisions consistently (treating elves and elans the same) or you make things way more complicated than they need to be.