Post/Author/DateTime	Post
m o n k 01-06-08, 05:57 PM	As an example, let's say you're being sneaky and trying to overhear what the corrupt noble is discussing with the advisor who pulled him away from the dinner table. If you manifest Forced Sense Link and the slippery noble makes his save, does he realize someone has just tried to mess with his mind? I'm looking for advice on how a DM could decide the reaction of the target. Suggestions are great; Guidelines from rulebooks are even better. Thanks!
deadkoo 01-06-08, 06:20 PM	Good question... I have no idea what the proper answer is, but what I do is that if target of the power(or spell) passes the check by 5 or more(ie DC is 16 and they get a 21 total) then they are aware of something odd. If 10 or more then they know something is attempting to target their mind.
kyeudo 01-06-08, 06:28 PM	Yes. In fact, that's the only way they know they made a save at all, other than by feeling the results of a failed save. Just check the Magic section of the Phb, under saving throw, IIRC.
m o n k 01-06-08, 07:24 PM	Found it. Thanks!
InkBlot 01-06-08, 08:02 PM	Just covering the other question that's bound to pop up eventually: The act of concentrating to manifest a power is quite visible, even if the display is hidden. The psion stops for a moment, and gives the target an intense stare. If someone was giving you a weird stare for two-four seconds, how would you react? How would other people react to the guy giving you that stare of death? It might not always be a stare exactly, but the act of concentrating to manifest a power isn't something that looks normal.
AntiDjinn 01-06-08, 11:07 PM	If you make a saving throw you know you resisted something out of the ordinary, but you don't automatically know what unless circumstance and Spellcraft/Psicraft tell you otherwise. If you use evasion + a successful Reflex save to avoid fireball damage, you know you dodged a fire effect of some sort; Reflex saves are generally vs. obvious effects and you always know if you have been forced to dive for cover. If you make a Will save to resist a Psionic Blast, you know you resisted some type of mental attack. If the rest of your party failed the save and dropped, you might from the targeting pattern deduce it was a cone effect and maybe have a clue about the origin point (assuming the manifester is hiding his display). It would take a psicraft roll to name the specific power. On the other hand, if you fail a Will save you might conclude you made it so just because your DM tells you that you succeeded does not mean that is the case. This is because when you fail a Will save vs. a mind-affecting effect you don't know you have been affected. Example: A wizard is casting Charm Person on you. You have made a Spellcraft roll so you can name the exact spell that is targeting you. You fail the Will save, so you do not know you have been affected. Conclusion: You believe you resisted, not that you believe no spell was cast (your Spellcraft already told you otherwise). So you wind up with something like: "My buddy just cast Charm Person at me. I resisted, not that it matters since I like him so much that he didn't need the spell in the first place. He must just have wanted our bond to be stronger. What a good friend."
JulesCARV 01-06-08, 11:26 PM	On the other hand, if you fail a Will save you might conclude you made it so just because your DM tells you that you succeeded does not mean that is the case. This is because when you fail a Will save vs. a mind-affecting effect you don't know you have been affected. Example: A wizard is casting Charm Person on you. You have made a Spellcraft roll so you can name the exact spell that is targeting you. You fail the Will save, so you do not know you have been affected. Conclusion: You believe you resisted, not that you believe no spell was cast (your Spellcraft already told you otherwise). So you wind up with something like: "My buddy just cast Charm Person at me. I resisted, not that it matters since I like him so much that he didn't need the spell in the first place. He must just have wanted our bond to be stronger. What a good friend." Possibly. Certainly, targets who make successful will saves are aware, but that doesn't mean people who fail aren't. Maybe it goes a bit more like this: Charmed guy: Excuse me, but a while ago, you cast charm person on me from a scroll, right? Enchanter: What? Charmed guy: I've gotten pretty good at identifying spells. Anyway, usually those scrolls only last an hour, and I think you charmed me about forty-five minutes ago. Do you think you could charm me again pretty soon? I'd hate to start thinking poorly of you just because of a short-duration scroll. Enchanter: Uhm.... well, I've already gotten access... Charmed guy (reaches into his pockets): Look, I've got... uh, nine gold, five silver. If you could chip in about sixteen more gold, maybe we could find somewhere where we could buy another scroll for you to cast? Enchanter: The thing is, I don't really need you to still like me in fifteen minutes. Charmed guy: But... if this charm runs out, I'm probably going to start thinking you suck for no good reason! Argh... that would be so stupid. Look, you wouldn't happen to have a more powerful charm in reserve, like charm monster or anything? I don't mean to whine here, but it's just been on my mind for the past few minutes, and it seems like neither of us have any idea of how to keep our friendship from falling apart fourteen minutes from now, so I just feel kind of pressed here, and was hoping we could find some way to... Enchanter: *runs away*
Sergikins 01-06-08, 11:31 PM	I find that knowing you have undergone a will save for certain spells sometimes dampens or twists the effect. for example, if you are in a tense negotiation and decide to cast a silent and still charm person to help your side out (lets assume you aren't the negotiator, but rather, a wizard or psion on the side) things can get really ugly if the target passes its save. If you know you underwent a magical effect, it might not just defeat the purpose of the spell, it might turn it backward. As a result, I have instituted a house rule that goes like this 1) You are aware of will saving throws when you pass the DC by more than 5 or if the result is something easily observed (such as damage when mind thrust is used) 2) If you are aware of the will saving throw, you gain a +2 to resist the same spell when cast again by the same person in the same time you are near them. you do not gain this bonus the first time the spell is cast, but everytime after is is cast. for example, if you beat a DC 14 charm with a Will saving throw of 20, for the rest of the time you are near this person, you gain a +2 on resisting it. Even if it has verbal and somatic components, and you are aware that he is casting charm person, you do not gain this competence bonus the first time.) 3) You are always aware of the will saving throw if you observe a spell being cast or power being manifested. Psions manifesting a power with some sort of display makes you aware that something will happen, therefore, as long as you know its being cast, you can associate the spell with something interfering with your mind. 4) Powers or spells with no verbal or somatic components (or likewise obvious "I'm casting a spell" displays) can be spotted when being cast or manifested with a spot check (DC = concentration check made by the caster.) if spotted, follow rule 3
AntiDjinn 01-07-08, 12:02 AM	From the XPH p.62: "Failing a Saving Throw against Mind-Affecting powers: If you fail your saving throw, you are unaware that you have been affected by a power." So, exactly as it says, if the effect has the mind-affecting descriptor and calls for a Will save, and you blow it, then you don't know you have been affected by a power. Taken literally, it means that no one who has ever been affected by Mind-Thrust (by definition) is aware they have been affected by a power. It means that no one who has succumbed to Mind Switch is aware they have been affected by a power. So anyone who has failed a save vs. Mind Thrust thinks their new hit point total is their norm? That it is no problem that they are suddenly bleeding from their ears? Those who fail vs. Mind Switch don't notice the new body? The way I read it: You may automatically know something has happened (you took damage, you wind up in new body, you just tried to kill yourself) but you don't automatically know it is a power. Your mind might come up with some other explanation, or you might figure out it was a power or psi-like ability with a Psicraft check (it is Psicraft that gives you the 411, not the failed save).
Zek 01-07-08, 08:39 AM	Don't forget that most (not all, but 90%+) powers have some kind of display. A loud chime rings in my head, but that's okay I just ignore it??:confused: I rule that if there was a display even if they failed the save they can Psicraft to determine a power was used. The victim just can't tell they were effected.
AntiDjinn 01-07-08, 11:11 AM	Even without a display they are entitled to a roll if the power has an effect they can witness or experience. If your companion suddenly shows an irrational attraction to an area off the battle map, then you are witnessing an effect and should get a Psicraft roll to recognize Attraction, even if it was manifest sans display. If you have been affected by Attraction you may or may not get this roll; you are supposed to seek the object to the exclusion of all else. Even if you make the roll you are still attracted. Since you failed a Will save vs. a mind-affecting effect you don't automatically know you are under a power effect; you think this sudden irrational attraction is your own idea. And even if you do figure it out and can name the power affecting you, you are still affected by the compulsion.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-07-08, 12:04 PM	Don't forget that most (not all, but 90%+) powers have some kind of display. A loud chime rings in my head, but that's okay I just ignore it??:confused: I rule that if there was a display even if they failed the save they can Psicraft to determine a power was used. The victim just can't tell they were effected. It's a DC 15+Power level Concentration check to manifest a power without the display. That's a DC 16 Concentration check for Psionic Charm. That's not very hard, ever for a 1st level psion.
InkBlot 01-07-08, 03:48 PM	Even if you make the roll you are still attracted. Since you failed a Will save vs. a mind-affecting effect you don't automatically know you are under a power effect; you think this sudden irrational attraction is your own idea. And even if you do figure it out and can name the power affecting you, you are still affected by the compulsion. For a full description of what this is like, read anything by Philip K. Dick. I suggest The Three Stigmata Of Palmer Eldritch.
CrimsonDeath 01-07-08, 04:57 PM	For a full description of what this is like, read anything by Philip K. Dick. I suggest The Three Stigmata Of Palmer Eldritch. Eh... I already know what it's like, more or less. Note that if you see someone manifest a power, identify it as Charm, and then fail your save against it, you may know that a power was manifested, but you don't necessarily know that you were the target. So, you'd know somebody was Charmed, just not that it was you.
Zek 01-08-08, 12:38 PM	It's a DC 15+Power level Concentration check to manifest a power without the display. That's a DC 16 Concentration check for Psionic Charm. That's not very hard, ever for a 1st level psion. Yes, but in my campaigns you would be suprised how many of my players don't bother to manifest without the display. Having said that, my resident telepath does attempt to be subtle, I just think she forgets sometimes that she can supress the display. This has caused a few embarrasing moments.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-08-08, 12:55 PM	Yes, but in my campaigns you would be suprised how many of my players don't bother to manifest without the display. Having said that, my resident telepath does attempt to be subtle, I just think she forgets sometimes that she can supress the display. This has caused a few embarrasing moments. Well, the telepath is the only one that has any real incentive to be discreet. A kineticist can suppress the display, but I think people are going to notice the explosion of energy. Just a hunch. ;)