Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 06-10-07, 08:04 PM	Hey guys. The feat's entry doesn't really make this clear, so I am a bit confused. Would taking this feat increase my total of known powers to 18 at 8th level, or would I still only know 17 powers? If I still only know 17 powers do I need to leave a slot open when I am choosing my powers? Thanks in advance.
Khan the Destroyer 06-10-07, 08:16 PM	It allows you to transcend your powers known per level. You grab the feat to learn an extra power, and this power can be from any list. Expanded Knowledge [Psionic] You learn another power. Prerequisites Manifester level 3rd. Benefit Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. Special You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn one new power at any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest.
Tempest Stormwind 06-10-07, 08:16 PM	Yes, that's part of the whole point of the feat. It doesn't let you choose new powers with your existing powers-known slots, it gives you knowledge of one more power over and above what you've got. Compare this to independent research.
celestialkin 06-10-07, 08:37 PM	Yes, that's part of the whole point of the feat. It doesn't let you choose new powers with your existing powers-known slots, it gives you knowledge of one more power over and above what you've got. Compare this to independent research. Wait, independent research adds to my known powers as well? I've been told by my group that it needs to go with my level ups and the number of powers I'm allowed each level. Were we mistaken, and if so where can I verify this to show my DM and my group? We actually briefly talked about this earlier today. Oh, and thank you both for clearing up the Expanded Knowledge part.
Jaid 06-10-07, 08:50 PM	Wait, independent research adds to my known powers as well? I've been told by my group that it needs to go with my level ups and the number of powers I'm allowed each level. Were we mistaken, and if so where can I verify this to show my DM and my group? We actually briefly talked about this earlier today. Oh, and thank you both for clearing up the Expanded Knowledge part.no, research does not add. that's the comparison :P
Khan the Destroyer 06-10-07, 08:54 PM	Correct. Independent Research costs you time and XP, and does not grant you more powers than you can normally have. On the flip side, if your DM allows, you could research powers that mimic other powers in the book not normally allowed to your class list. In this way, you can get around the unnecessary restrictions put on your power list. It's a choice between spending a feat and having more powers known, or saving a feat but spending time and XP and having the same number of powers known. (Also, I don't remember off the top of my head if research costs you money or not.)
Tsuul 06-10-07, 08:54 PM	Compare Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.AndEXPANDED KNOWLEDGE [PSIONIC] You learn another power. Prerequisites: Manifester level 3rd. Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn one new power at any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest. The feats bumps your known powers up by one, adding a "slot". Research lets you create a new power (or duplicate one from another list) that you then use your existing "slots" to put it in.
Tyroki 06-10-07, 09:09 PM	Which makes research and Expanded Knowledge freaking awesome xD
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 12:19 PM	But not broken. See, you don't get many feats overall, you have to spend the ones you do get judiciously. Wizards don't have to spend feats to learn spells, and don't have to worry about extra feats for metamagic, either. Opportunity cost, y'know. (Just heading off the inevitable "EK is b0rk3n!" arguments.)
InkBlot 06-11-07, 12:41 PM	Not to mention that wizards do have their own version of Expanded Knowledge. Extra Spell, in Complete Arcane, adds another spell to an arcane caster's repetoire. Of course for a wizard this is nigh useless, since they can just pay some GP to get the spell in their spellbook. Its nice for a sorcerer or bard though.
Tempest Stormwind 06-11-07, 12:52 PM	Not to mention that wizards do have their own version of Expanded Knowledge. Extra Spell, in Complete Arcane, adds another spell to an arcane caster's repetoire. Of course for a wizard this is nigh useless, since they can just pay some GP to get the spell in their spellbook. Its nice for a sorcerer or bard though. Not quite. RAW, Extra Spell isn't bound by spell list. And there are far more "spells" than there are "powers" -- for instance, the entire Cleric list.
celestialkin 06-11-07, 02:32 PM	Not quite. RAW, Extra Spell isn't bound by spell list. And there are far more "spells" than there are "powers" -- for instance, the entire Cleric list. But with a little work and an understanding DM couldn't you theoretically copy any spell into a power with independent research? I thought that was what balanced out rarely getting any new powers in D&D material. In my current champaign my Wizard party member agreed to let me inside the arcane order if I continued helping the party (fluff and roleplaying reasons), so I figured that would be a very good thing for a psion.
InkBlot 06-11-07, 03:52 PM	You can do anything that the DM, and the other players, will allow into the game. That doesn't invalidate the rules (or lack of rules) that WotC publishes.
Tyroki 06-11-07, 04:42 PM	And if yer DM wants to stick to Official only, and will only allow original research, then no. So really, everything is theory, then broken down by the DM to reveal what they want to be truth. Either way, if the DM allows it, research can be your best friend. Of course, if you can't balance a power properly like me (Refer to the thread 'I need augment help'), then it's not likely you'll be researching much anyways xD My DM says that the other disciplines (Telepath, Shaper, etc) can't be researched into as they're unique. But that doesn't mean your DM will. ^^ (Or you if you're the DM)
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 08:29 PM	Yeah, not all DMs will allow power/spell transparency, even through research. I know one that has never read the XPH, thinks psionics is overpowered (because one of his players lies and cheats), and when you ask to make a power into a spell, it requires a +5 adjustment because, and I quote, "Psionics is that overpowered." And he didn't even look the power over. Of course, he thinks fighters are overpowered, but frenzied berzerkers are fine. :rolleyes:
Salla 06-11-07, 09:24 PM	Yeah, not all DMs will allow power/spell transparency, even through research. I know one that has never read the XPH, thinks psionics is overpowered (because one of his players lies and cheats), and when you ask to make a power into a spell, it requires a +5 adjustment because, and I quote, "Psionics is that overpowered." And he didn't even look the power over. Of course, he thinks fighters are overpowered, but frenzied berzerkers are fine. :rolleyes: So, how much stupid powder does this guy snort in a day?
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 09:34 PM	Enough, I'd wager. I've caught that same player making stuff up numerous times, but they keep believing him over me (when I've been right each time). He also makes dozens of house rules that *make* psionics overpowered, such as making immediate actions not cost swift actions for the next turn. He says they're core rules, and that he's not making them up, and thinks that psionics is overpowered as written. A few examples of his "official" house-rules: -Bonuses from the same source always stack (which makes Vigor overpowered, as multiple manifestations always stack; note that you can also carry two shields and have a ring of shielding and an animated shield, and you can wear three different suits of armor) -Polymorph (and by extension, metamorphosis) grants Su, Sp, and Ps abilities -Manifesters can spend all of their pp in one shot (and he refuses to listen to anyone refuting it; even if you can point at the text in the book, he refuses to read it) Also: -Frenzied berzerkers are "balanced" because they can turn on their companions Yeah, I've about given up on him.
Salla 06-11-07, 10:04 PM	Enough, I'd wager. I've caught that same player making stuff up numerous times, but they keep believing him over me (when I've been right each time). He also makes dozens of house rules that *make* psionics overpowered, such as making immediate actions not cost swift actions for the next turn. He says they're core rules, and that he's not making them up, and thinks that psionics is overpowered as written. A few examples of his "official" house-rules: -Bonuses from the same source always stack (which makes Vigor overpowered, as multiple manifestations always stack; note that you can also carry two shields and have a ring of shielding and an animated shield, and you can wear three different suits of armor) -Polymorph (and by extension, metamorphosis) grants Su, Sp, and Ps abilities -Manifesters can spend all of their pp in one shot (and he refuses to listen to anyone refuting it; even if you can point at the text in the book, he refuses to read it) Also: -Frenzied berzerkers are "balanced" because they can turn on their companions Yeah, I've about given up on him. Would you be horribly offended if I called this guy a moronic douchebag?
Tempest Stormwind 06-11-07, 10:57 PM	Bring a water spritzer. "It reads the book before it speaks or else it gets the hose again!" If it takes him longer than three spritzes to get the idea, nonchalantly draw an empty vodka bottle and a box of matches from your pocket, and remind him you never said it was full of water.
Tyroki 06-12-07, 07:58 AM	Even pointing him to the SRD failed miserably? Why don't you just call the guy an idiotic shlong sucker, and tell him to get his brain adjusted =D This is why I'm loving the SRD =D "Hey idiots. Suck on this (Link), (Link), (Link) and (Link). THERE! Psionics is not overpowered, that guy is a dipswitch. Oh, and not to mention (Link to the "Myth: Psionics is overpowered" thread). Try that on for size!" Honestly... What a pathetic DM if he's not willing to actually read and learn that his players just been playing him like an old fiddle. "Cleatus, get back in yooooo cAAAge, Cleatus! Don't make me get the hooooOOOse" xD Give both the DM and the player absolute psionic wrath. And hell, if they still won't listen, abuse their own rules farther than that player can =3 Teach them just how stupid they are, and absolutely screw up their campaigns =D Why should morons get to have fun? It's not like we don't have enough of them in this world -.-;