Does Save or Suck save PP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Does Save or Suck save PP? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Katash
10-06-07, 03:55 PM Just did the math and PP for a 20th level Psion is a little under 4 manifestations (unaugmented) of each level. However since powers don't have freescaling damage (unlike spells) are you alot better using save of suck powers (alot don't augment anyway) to preserve PP. Do they remain viable at higher levels (as opposed to augmented DD powers which at least increase thier DC's when augmented?
EvilVegan
10-06-07, 04:01 PM Just did the math and PP for a 20th level Psion is a little under 4 manifestations (unaugmented) of each level. However since powers don't have freescaling damage (unlike spells) are you alot better using save of suck powers (alot don't augment anyway) to preserve PP. Do they remain viable at higher levels (as opposed to augmented DD powers which at least increase thier DC's when augmented?

Save or Gimp are usually seen as better in almost every way.

You would need good insta-gibs at high levels to get cranked DCs for the unaugmentable ones.

I don't know enough save ors to give good suggestions, but what you're saying looks to be sound.
Lycanthromancer
10-06-07, 04:35 PM No-save-and-still-suck is better. Look at entangling ectoplasm. It doesn't matter if you're at level 1 or level 20, Medium enemies only cost 1 power point and a standard action to splat.

You've got a minimum of 343 manifestations per day, right there.

Find all the ones that don't have a saving throw to augment, and you're golden. Psionic grease is another one. And yes, I know it has a save, but most foes don't have ranks in Balance, so they suck regardless.

Do have fun. :)
AntiDjinn
10-06-07, 06:09 PM For a full manifester, a proven strategy for combat is:

1) Buffs and defenses before the fight starts, if possible. This almost goes without saying since you want defenses in place before you get hit. Getting yourself and your psicrystal focused also should be done before combat starts when you have that option.

Does this save power points? Yes, powers such as Energy Adaptation cost less when you manifest them as standard rather than immediate actions.

2) Open the fight with a debuff or hinderance. Such powers are defined as any that leave the subject with fewer options than it had previously. Some powers not only hurt the target, they defend you by limiting your foe's ability to shoot back. Mindwipe, for example, puts some major hurt on the target (the save penalties mean you will have an easier time doing it more harm) and also takes away some of its options for hurting you and your party (loss of higher level spells or powers). Consider how carefully you picked your most recent two to four powers and how good you have become at using them; figure your opponent did the same and Mind Wipe those away before he gets to show you what they were. Inflict Pain imposes a -2 penalty even on those who make the save (making it seldom worth your while to augment; it may take many points to inflict the -4 penalty, but for just 3 points you know you are going to get the -2. Total hoser debuffs like Fuse Flesh can basically end a fight, if you can pull them off. The more rounds your oppenent spends under the effects of a debuff, the more it suffers. So always debuff early.

Does this save points? Certainly, your party needs less healing when opponents can hit back or can't do as much damage. It is nice when you don't have to restore a disintegrated party member because you neutralized a caster early.

3) Battlefield control and tactical neutralization. After you are happy with your debuffs, lay down some powers that mess with your opponent's tactics and combos. A Wall of Ectoplasm in the right place can really limit their movement and ability assist each other. Time Hop is the workhorse power when it comes to breaking up combos. Enemy healer annoying you? Get rid of him while you dispatch his meatshields. Being charged by a mounted fighter? Time Hop the mount right out from under him. Control Sound can also mess with a group's tactics by making them hear different shouted orders than their leader intended.

Does it save points? Maybe, as item 2, above.

4) Close with damage, if your party melee types have not already mopped up the opposition. Damage only hurts the target without really helping you, unless you can kill or incapacitate outright with damage. So don't worry about blowing away your opponents hit points until you have taken steps to ensure that he is not doing the same to yours. Yes, it might seem vaguely unsatisfying to kill something after it has been rendered both helpless and harmless. Do it. You'll get over it.

Save points? No, not really. If you have done your job with the first steps you can probably just dispatch them with a dagger. But blasting them may still prove theraputic.

5) Detect Psionics, Object Reading, Identify, etc. to sort out the loot.

Save points? No, but you don't want to miss out on the best swag.
hovnarr
10-06-07, 07:24 PM and lets not forget...

0) Clairsentience and preparation. Prior planning prevents poor performance, as someone I know puts it. 3 pp for clairvoyance is cheap when it lets you sneak a peak of the opposition in the room beyond. In effect, it enables point 1) above, letting you select the optimal defense in advance and not waste PP on suboptimal defenses "just in case". Because you already know what the case is. And you have the luxury of picking out your offense in advance, before you're on an initiative clock. Of course, sending your psicrystal in under the door to have a look costs 0 pp, so that's even cheaper.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Katash 10-06-07, 03:55 PM	Just did the math and PP for a 20th level Psion is a little under 4 manifestations (unaugmented) of each level. However since powers don't have freescaling damage (unlike spells) are you alot better using save of suck powers (alot don't augment anyway) to preserve PP. Do they remain viable at higher levels (as opposed to augmented DD powers which at least increase thier DC's when augmented?
EvilVegan 10-06-07, 04:01 PM	Just did the math and PP for a 20th level Psion is a little under 4 manifestations (unaugmented) of each level. However since powers don't have freescaling damage (unlike spells) are you alot better using save of suck powers (alot don't augment anyway) to preserve PP. Do they remain viable at higher levels (as opposed to augmented DD powers which at least increase thier DC's when augmented? Save or Gimp are usually seen as better in almost every way. You would need good insta-gibs at high levels to get cranked DCs for the unaugmentable ones. I don't know enough save ors to give good suggestions, but what you're saying looks to be sound.
Lycanthromancer 10-06-07, 04:35 PM	No-save-and-still-suck is better. Look at entangling ectoplasm. It doesn't matter if you're at level 1 or level 20, Medium enemies only cost 1 power point and a standard action to splat. You've got a minimum of 343 manifestations per day, right there. Find all the ones that don't have a saving throw to augment, and you're golden. Psionic grease is another one. And yes, I know it has a save, but most foes don't have ranks in Balance, so they suck regardless. Do have fun. :)
AntiDjinn 10-06-07, 06:09 PM	For a full manifester, a proven strategy for combat is: 1) Buffs and defenses before the fight starts, if possible. This almost goes without saying since you want defenses in place before you get hit. Getting yourself and your psicrystal focused also should be done before combat starts when you have that option. Does this save power points? Yes, powers such as Energy Adaptation cost less when you manifest them as standard rather than immediate actions. 2) Open the fight with a debuff or hinderance. Such powers are defined as any that leave the subject with fewer options than it had previously. Some powers not only hurt the target, they defend you by limiting your foe's ability to shoot back. Mindwipe, for example, puts some major hurt on the target (the save penalties mean you will have an easier time doing it more harm) and also takes away some of its options for hurting you and your party (loss of higher level spells or powers). Consider how carefully you picked your most recent two to four powers and how good you have become at using them; figure your opponent did the same and Mind Wipe those away before he gets to show you what they were. Inflict Pain imposes a -2 penalty even on those who make the save (making it seldom worth your while to augment; it may take many points to inflict the -4 penalty, but for just 3 points you know you are going to get the -2. Total hoser debuffs like Fuse Flesh can basically end a fight, if you can pull them off. The more rounds your oppenent spends under the effects of a debuff, the more it suffers. So always debuff early. Does this save points? Certainly, your party needs less healing when opponents can hit back or can't do as much damage. It is nice when you don't have to restore a disintegrated party member because you neutralized a caster early. 3) Battlefield control and tactical neutralization. After you are happy with your debuffs, lay down some powers that mess with your opponent's tactics and combos. A Wall of Ectoplasm in the right place can really limit their movement and ability assist each other. Time Hop is the workhorse power when it comes to breaking up combos. Enemy healer annoying you? Get rid of him while you dispatch his meatshields. Being charged by a mounted fighter? Time Hop the mount right out from under him. Control Sound can also mess with a group's tactics by making them hear different shouted orders than their leader intended. Does it save points? Maybe, as item 2, above. 4) Close with damage, if your party melee types have not already mopped up the opposition. Damage only hurts the target without really helping you, unless you can kill or incapacitate outright with damage. So don't worry about blowing away your opponents hit points until you have taken steps to ensure that he is not doing the same to yours. Yes, it might seem vaguely unsatisfying to kill something after it has been rendered both helpless and harmless. Do it. You'll get over it. Save points? No, not really. If you have done your job with the first steps you can probably just dispatch them with a dagger. But blasting them may still prove theraputic. 5) Detect Psionics, Object Reading, Identify, etc. to sort out the loot. Save points? No, but you don't want to miss out on the best swag.
hovnarr 10-06-07, 07:24 PM	and lets not forget... 0) Clairsentience and preparation. Prior planning prevents poor performance, as someone I know puts it. 3 pp for clairvoyance is cheap when it lets you sneak a peak of the opposition in the room beyond. In effect, it enables point 1) above, letting you select the optimal defense in advance and not waste PP on suboptimal defenses "just in case". Because you already know what the case is. And you have the luxury of picking out your offense in advance, before you're on an initiative clock. Of course, sending your psicrystal in under the door to have a look costs 0 pp, so that's even cheaper.