Dorje crafting problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dorje crafting problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sarlax
09-01-07, 02:12 PM I'm hitting a problem with the rules for Crafting Dorjes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingDorjes) (XPH 181).
To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.
What is this "Alternatively" here for? It seems to be offering two ways of making dorjes. Consider a simple power like Crystal Shard. The cheapest (market price) Dorje of Crystal Shard is 750 GP (ML 1 * PL 1 * 750). What if I make it at manifester level 5?

The first method:
If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level.
This suggests I can pay for the dorje like so: PL 1 * ML 5 * 750 = 3750 GP. However,

In the second method:
Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want.
This would mean I'd pay for the dorje like this: PL 3 (+4 manifester levels, divided by 2, plus the original power level of 1) * ML 5 * 750 GP = 11250 GP.

Compare to wand creation. The cost of a wand is simply CL * SL * 750. A CL 1 wand of Shocking Grasp would cost 750 GP, but a CL 5 wand of Shocking Grasp would cost 3750 GP (1 * 5 * 750).

So which method is correct for the dorje?
Lathi
09-02-07, 03:49 AM I'm fairly certain the second formula is the only one for the higher-ML dorje (especially since it generally keeps the price/level in-line with that for wands). It seems that, for whatever reason, the second paragraph was constructed backwards. If you flip the first and second sentences around, it makes much more sense and doesn't suggest two formulas. Consider:

To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.

Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level.

Paragraph 1 sets out the pricing formula for a dorje created at base manifester level. Paragraph 2 describes the alternate cost formula for a dorje with a higher manifester level. It then goes on to detail how that higher manifester level affects a power that benefits from being augmented (each charge dumps that many more points into it).

I'm not entirely sure what the point of the double-scaling price structure is, though. Unless it's because there's usually an upper limit on how much an increased caster level can benefit a spell, but powers have no such limit. And that some can get a boost from having a higher manifester level even before being augmented.
hovnarr
09-04-07, 07:16 AM In the first method, no difference is made between increasing ML and augmenting the power to said ML. This is simpler, but not as accurate. Alternatively, you can make a distinction between the two (higher ML and augmentation).

According to this method, you could have a dorje of non-augmented Energy Missiles manifested at ML 9. You'd still get 3d6 missiles, but range and such parameters would be as for ML 9. This would cost 750*2*9. If you wanted fully augmented missiles, you're really paying for a 5th level power which means it'd cost 750*5*9 instead.
CrimsonDeath
09-04-07, 12:00 PM The rules, unfortunately, break down in three cases.

First: Augmenting a power by an odd number. According to the example in the XPH, you increase the power's effective level by one for every two manifester levels or fraction thereof by which it's augmented. Which means a ML 2 Dorje of Energy Ray has an effective power level of 2, and a ML 4 Dorje of Energy Ray has an effective power level of 3. A psion with ML 2 can't manifest a second level power, and a psion with ML 4 can't manifest a 3rd level power.

Second: A Lurk or Psychic Warrior could be creating the Dorje. Even using the rules as they were probably intended, consider a Dorje of Inertial Armor created by a Psychic Warrior. At ML 3, it has an effective power level of 2, and at ML 5, it has an effective power level of 3. A level 3 Psychic Warrior can't manifest a level 2 power, and a level 5 Psychic Warrior can't manifest a level 5 power.

Third: The power is 7th, 8th, or 9th level. The ML of a dorje is limited to 5 higher than the level of the power. A 7th, 8th, or 9th level power can be augmented such that, by the rules as written, it is treated as a 10th level power for the purposes of crafting a dorje. Since 10th level powers don't exist, I'm not certain whether this was intended. (In fact, 8th and 9th level powers can be augmented such that they're treated as 11th level powers when crafting dorjes of them...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarlax 09-01-07, 02:12 PM	I'm hitting a problem with the rules for Crafting Dorjes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingDorjes) (XPH 181). To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. What is this "Alternatively" here for? It seems to be offering two ways of making dorjes. Consider a simple power like Crystal Shard. The cheapest (market price) Dorje of Crystal Shard is 750 GP (ML 1 * PL 1 * 750). What if I make it at manifester level 5? The first method: If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. This suggests I can pay for the dorje like so: PL 1 * ML 5 * 750 = 3750 GP. However, In the second method: Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. This would mean I'd pay for the dorje like this: PL 3 (+4 manifester levels, divided by 2, plus the original power level of 1) * ML 5 * 750 GP = 11250 GP. Compare to wand creation. The cost of a wand is simply CL * SL * 750. A CL 1 wand of Shocking Grasp would cost 750 GP, but a CL 5 wand of Shocking Grasp would cost 3750 GP (1 * 5 * 750). So which method is correct for the dorje?
Lathi 09-02-07, 03:49 AM	I'm fairly certain the second formula is the only one for the higher-ML dorje (especially since it generally keeps the price/level in-line with that for wands). It seems that, for whatever reason, the second paragraph was constructed backwards. If you flip the first and second sentences around, it makes much more sense and doesn't suggest two formulas. Consider: To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power. If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Paragraph 1 sets out the pricing formula for a dorje created at base manifester level. Paragraph 2 describes the alternate cost formula for a dorje with a higher manifester level. It then goes on to detail how that higher manifester level affects a power that benefits from being augmented (each charge dumps that many more points into it). I'm not entirely sure what the point of the double-scaling price structure is, though. Unless it's because there's usually an upper limit on how much an increased caster level can benefit a spell, but powers have no such limit. And that some can get a boost from having a higher manifester level even before being augmented.
hovnarr 09-04-07, 07:16 AM	In the first method, no difference is made between increasing ML and augmenting the power to said ML. This is simpler, but not as accurate. Alternatively, you can make a distinction between the two (higher ML and augmentation). According to this method, you could have a dorje of non-augmented Energy Missiles manifested at ML 9. You'd still get 3d6 missiles, but range and such parameters would be as for ML 9. This would cost 75029. If you wanted fully augmented missiles, you're really paying for a 5th level power which means it'd cost 75059 instead.
CrimsonDeath 09-04-07, 12:00 PM	The rules, unfortunately, break down in three cases. First: Augmenting a power by an odd number. According to the example in the XPH, you increase the power's effective level by one for every two manifester levels or fraction thereof by which it's augmented. Which means a ML 2 Dorje of Energy Ray has an effective power level of 2, and a ML 4 Dorje of Energy Ray has an effective power level of 3. A psion with ML 2 can't manifest a second level power, and a psion with ML 4 can't manifest a 3rd level power. Second: A Lurk or Psychic Warrior could be creating the Dorje. Even using the rules as they were probably intended, consider a Dorje of Inertial Armor created by a Psychic Warrior. At ML 3, it has an effective power level of 2, and at ML 5, it has an effective power level of 3. A level 3 Psychic Warrior can't manifest a level 2 power, and a level 5 Psychic Warrior can't manifest a level 5 power. Third: The power is 7th, 8th, or 9th level. The ML of a dorje is limited to 5 higher than the level of the power. A 7th, 8th, or 9th level power can be augmented such that, by the rules as written, it is treated as a 10th level power for the purposes of crafting a dorje. Since 10th level powers don't exist, I'm not certain whether this was intended. (In fact, 8th and 9th level powers can be augmented such that they're treated as 11th level powers when crafting dorjes of them...)