Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StruckingFuggle 01-25-08, 11:48 PM	Did a quick search, and didn't seem to find this particular topic... So I'm running a gestalt game, and before just ruling one way or the other, I want to know what would / should happen if a player takes two Psionic classes. Do they take the larger Power Point Pool bonus, or do both sets of point-ups go into the same pool, or do they have a, say, Psion Power Point Pool and a Wilder Power Point Pool?
Ekko 01-25-08, 11:55 PM	Huh. I think the rules would make you take the highest of the two powerpoint gains (in this case, the psion's). Personally, I'd rule that you'd combine the two pools, but RAW, if I'm not mistaken, would say that you get the psion's PP and enjoy it.
The_Mess 01-26-08, 12:41 AM	Given that double-caster gestalts get spell slots from both classes, it would be horribly unbalanced not to give psionics the sum of both power point progressions.
Tiarn 01-26-08, 12:42 AM	Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately. I'd say your answer is right there. If spellcasters keep track of it separately, so do psionic characters. ...but RAW, if I'm not mistaken, would say that you get the psion's PP and enjoy it. Where did you get that idea? I'm curious. I didn't read anything that would lead to thinking that.
The_Mess 01-26-08, 01:06 AM	Well, BAB and Saves aren't added from all the classes, you just get the best progression. Power points feel more like any other numerical resource than they do spell-slots.
CrimsonDeath 01-26-08, 01:19 AM	Where did you get that idea? I'm curious. I didn't read anything that would lead to thinking that. Maybe this: If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. Normally multiclassed spellcasters keep track of their spell slots separately, and so do gestalted spellcasters. Normally multiclassed manifesters pool all their PP together, so presumably a gestalted manifester would do the same. However, the gestalt rules say that class features shared by two classes (such as Uncanny Dodge-- or, presumably, a PP reserve) "accrue at the rate of the faster class". Personally, I think it's probably best not to gestalt two manifesting classes, just so that you can sidestep this particular question entirely. I'm actually not sure whether a gestalt Psion//Wilder who sums the PP rather than just taking the best progression would be unbalanced compared to a gestalt Psion//Wizard.
StruckingFuggle 01-26-08, 09:59 AM	Given that double-caster gestalts get spell slots from both classes, it would be horribly unbalanced not to give psionics the sum of both power point progressions. You know, I never really thought of it that way; now that I've considered that in that context, I think that's how I'll run it. If it proves to be horribly broken, I'll come back and say so. :)
Lycanthromancer 01-26-08, 12:18 PM	Basically, it's another hole in the gestalt rules. Technically, they would stack, but this allows for some serious nova-abuse, and gives a manifester incredible stamina (just like a wizard, actually). So if you'd allow wizards in your gestalt game, you might as well allow this. ...See the magic is broken link in my sig. With a bit of thought, I could still outdo your manifester/manifester gestalt with a single-classed wizard 20. :) If that's the case, then a manifester x2 gestalt isn't at all broken. :D [edit] Actually, I think I'd rather gestalt a manifesting class with an incarnum class. Fun-fun. :P
Caterpillar 01-26-08, 12:24 PM	Why not keep track of the power points separately? If spellcasters keep track of spells separately do the same for the gestalt psionics.
Lycanthromancer 01-26-08, 12:27 PM	Except that psionic classes don't keep tabs on their power point pools separately. You could do that if you like, I suppose.
DracoPhoenix 01-26-08, 12:56 PM	I'm with the treat as casters opinion - x2 lots of pp, but as per RAW, they pool. (i.e. L20 psion/Ardent gets ~700pp) The fun bit is when you have different primary stats - you get the bonus pp for each :)
The_Mess 01-26-08, 11:58 PM	They should get bonus pp from each progression regardless. The casters get bonus spell slots from their stat, even if its the same for both classes.
StruckingFuggle 01-27-08, 12:39 AM	Basically, it's another hole in the gestalt rules. Technically, they would stack, but this allows for some serious nova-abuse, and gives a manifester incredible stamina (just like a wizard, actually). Just like a Wizard / Cleric or Wizard / Archivist or any sort of proper Caster / Caster gestalt build, actually. :)
hogarth 01-27-08, 01:23 AM	Why not keep track of the power points separately? If spellcasters keep track of spells separately do the same for the gestalt psionics. This is also what I would do.
Nifft 01-28-08, 01:14 AM	IMHO: the RAW say that you'd only get power points from the class with the most PP; per the "accrue at the rate" argument above. However: that's not particularly fair. What I'd do: allow power points from both base classes to stack, but only allow bonus power points from one (whichever would be higher), just like how multi-classing works now. But in conclusion: it's probably best to NOT stack two Psionic classes, when you could get so much more by choosing a complementary class for your other side. I'd think that a Psion // Warblade or Paladin // Wilder or Ardent // Swordsage could easily hand a Psion // Wilder his posterior. Cheers, -- N
DracoPhoenix 01-28-08, 02:55 AM	(To the "one lot" advocates) I hope you use the same rule with casters, because despite the position "it's just like BAB or saves", the mechanic is comparable to spells per day. The actual line that is used here is: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." Spells per day fall under this category just as easily. The fact that they can't be pooled doesn't matter. Both sides accumulate "spells per day" in the same way. But wait, we also have: "Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately." Now, given core / everything else normally ignores the existance of psionics, leaving the DM with the headache of replacing "Spell caster" with "Manifester" and "Spell" with "power" and so on, how does the above line now read?: "Gestalt characters with more than one manifesting class keep track of their power points separately." Now, the Psionic hand book is rather nice when it comes to multiple pp sources with : "If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have." Note it doesn't specify that the multiclassing must occur vertically.
The_Mess 01-28-08, 12:04 PM	Psychic Warrior/Swordsage. Sure, you're still stuck with the medium BAB and relatively low HP for a warrior, but oh the abuse!
Rageheart 01-28-08, 12:37 PM	I was trying out an Ardent//PsyWar for a while...... both use Wis.... Oh the Elanity!
DracoPhoenix 01-28-08, 05:35 PM	I was trying out an Ardent//PsyWar for a while...... both use Wis.... Oh the Elanity! I had fun with a Psion(Telepath) / Uncarnate 2 / Archmage // Ardent / Uncarnate 8 / Archmage (To balance the MLs) The ranged touch on Empathic Transfer, Hostile was a back up :)
StruckingFuggle 01-28-08, 07:37 PM	DracoPhoenix, while I agree broadly with your thesis, and am inclined to go with it; I don't think it's quite that simple - or at least, there's a sticky wicket in it. A, say, Sorceror / Favored Soul (no, I don't know why you'd play it, it's just a thought :p), can't use Sorceror spell/day to cast Favored Soul spells; but a Psion / PsyWar can use Psion "effective spell/day"s to manifest PsyWar powers.
TheKeyofE 01-28-08, 09:07 PM	Psychic Warrior/Swordsage. Sure, you're still stuck with the medium BAB and relatively low HP for a warrior, but oh the abuse! After level 5, drop Psywar and start taking Warmind. You can Sweeping Strike all your maneuvers. It will also raise your BAB. This is assuming your game allows gestalting prestige classes, which I think it's actually a good idea to disallow prcs in gestalt games.
StruckingFuggle 01-28-08, 10:17 PM	This is assuming your game allows gestalting prestige classes, which I think it's actually a good idea to disallow prcs in gestalt games. ...but... but... that shuts down so many options. :(
AntiDjinn 01-29-08, 12:13 AM	Psionic beings with a power pool always have a single power pool. Even the "two characters in one body" situation created with Schism results in a shared power pool. You don't want two pools because all points used to manifest a power must come from a single source; you don't want to face the situation of having 6 points in each of two pools and not being able to spend 12 points on a single manifestation. Psion/wilder is a bad gestalt choice. It may look good, but it is not. The two classes pick from the same general list (with the psion having access to a discipline list). The wilder's chance to enervate is based on his wilder level, and with a gestalt, every level of the combined class counts as a wilder level. If you are going to gestalt the psion, mix in something that picks from a different power list, or has full BAB and better hit points, or that casts spells, or that has multiple useful class abilities.
The_Mess 01-29-08, 01:14 AM	You only want a few levels of Wilder anyway.
StruckingFuggle 01-29-08, 02:27 AM	Which is why you swap the Wilder out for the PrC levels. You're right, it's rather sub-optimal, but with that many power points and powers known, it'd be fun.
DracoPhoenix 01-29-08, 02:59 AM	DracoPhoenix, while I agree broadly with your thesis, and am inclined to go with it; I don't think it's quite that simple - or at least, there's a sticky wicket in it. A, say, Sorceror / Favored Soul (no, I don't know why you'd play it, it's just a thought :p), can't use Sorceror spell/day to cast Favored Soul spells; but a Psion / PsyWar can use Psion "effective spell/day"s to manifest PsyWar powers. Consider: The rule on pooling pp is part of Core+. I.e. the rules on multi-classing. Nothing to do with the fact that s/he's gestalt. Magic transparency says 99% of the time, you can substitute "power" etc for "spell". The rules for gestalt state you track spells per day. While I agree you can't mix & match spells per day, it isn't Gestalt that's allowing it. If you were to compare the ability to pool pp to the other casting classes, you would have to compare the facts: 1) the cleric has access to every spell in his spell list every day (though he can only prepare so many) and 2) the wizard can learn all spells as they find them. Neither of which most psionic classes can do. Would you limit the cleric to a fixed list like the sorc? Or the number of spells per level the wizard could learn? The strength of the class is in it's flexibility to cast spells, not what spells it can cast or learn. Also, and I hate using RAW, but by RAW nothing in gestalt retracts the core+ rule. It may not be "fair" or "balanced" (compared to being able to access more than different ~20 spells / powers in your adventuring career) but that alone doesn't negate the rules. Only allows the DM to create a house rule.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-29-08, 09:25 AM	(To the "one lot" advocates) I hope you use the same rule with casters, because despite the position "it's just like BAB or saves", the mechanic is comparable to spells per day. The actual line that is used here is: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." Spells per day fall under this category just as easily. The fact that they can't be pooled doesn't matter. Both sides accumulate "spells per day" in the same way. But wait, we also have: "Gestalt characters with more than one spellcasting class keep track of their spells per day separately." Now, given core / everything else normally ignores the existance of psionics, leaving the DM with the headache of replacing "Spell caster" with "Manifester" and "Spell" with "power" and so on, how does the above line now read?: "Gestalt characters with more than one manifesting class keep track of their power points separately." Now, the Psionic hand book is rather nice when it comes to multiple pp sources with : "If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have." Note it doesn't specify that the multiclassing must occur vertically. This is the interpretation I'd have to go with. Any DM trying to give me only the bigger power point pool is going to face a very angry player . . . possibly with the ol' idiot-DM-bane hammergun. I can't say about its power. I wouldn't give bonus power points for both progressions. Heck, if it turns out too powerful, I'd give the full better one plus one-half the weaker one. Which would of course be a houserule. Mind you, I wouldn't go psion/wilder. Maybe lurk/psychic warrior. Or something else fun like that. Really nice would be an elan egoist//psychic warrior, supposing I have access to Untapped Potential and the elan egoist substitution level: essentially, whenever you spend power points to manifest that power, for one round you have "virtual power points" you can spend on elan racial abilities. Combine that with the elan racial feats in CPsi that give you more per power point spent, and you've got an interesting gish ahead of you. Mind you, what I'd most want to play would be a lurk/psychic warrior or a lurk/spellthief - supposing the campaign used the spell point system and spell points = power points transparency.
Sinfire Titan 01-30-08, 07:35 PM	Huh. I think the rules would make you take the highest of the two powerpoint gains (in this case, the psion's). Personally, I'd rule that you'd combine the two pools, but RAW, if I'm not mistaken, would say that you get the psion's PP and enjoy it. No. Just like Gestalting a Sorcerer/Wizard, you get the full amount of PP from each. And bonus PP. It makes Psionics slightly better than spellcasting. And as to Gestalt PrCs: It only gets seriously out of hand with Dual advancement PrCs and classes like Legacy Champion. Normal PrCs are usually allowed.
DracoPhoenix 01-31-08, 09:00 AM	And as to Gestalt PrCs: It only gets seriously out of hand with Dual advancement PrCs and classes like Legacy Champion. Normal PrCs are usually allowed. Side note, the Rules actually strongly discourraging, but stop short of banning combo classes. That and you're only allowed one PrC per character level. (And, side, side note: People are worried about gestalt braking games when Codzilla and Pun Pun don't need it? :looloo: )
Selgard 01-31-08, 09:37 AM	I would say that the special rule on Multiclassing doesn't apply here. It would only apply if you muticlassed psionic classes in the "same side" of the gestalt. With two classes you have two restrictions on PP and what powers you can use them on. You should be tracking two separate PP pools as well, one for the "left class" and one for the "right class". if you are Wiz//Sorc you don't use Sorc spell slots to power Wizard spells, or vice versa. this version also benefits any item that grants "more points" (rings of psionic/wizardry or whatnot that may exist in your campaign) just my .02
StruckingFuggle 01-31-08, 02:03 PM	if you are Wiz//Sorc you don't use Sorc spell slots to power Wizard spells, or vice versa. ... *scurries off, inspired* I've wondered what a PrC worth sacrificing both 'sides' of gestalt advancement might look like...
Vloorshad 01-31-08, 02:40 PM	I would say that the special rule on Multiclassing doesn't apply here. It would only apply if you muticlassed psionic classes in the "same side" of the gestalt. With two classes you have two restrictions on PP and what powers you can use them on. You should be tracking two separate PP pools as well, one for the "left class" and one for the "right class". if you are Wiz//Sorc you don't use Sorc spell slots to power Wizard spells, or vice versa. this version also benefits any item that grants "more points" (rings of psionic/wizardry or whatnot that may exist in your campaign) just my .02 Of course it's worth noting that the way Gestalt deals with a Wiz//Sorc is the same way multiclassing deals with a Wiz/Sorc. Allowing Psionics to pool their PPs just means that Psionics is better than Arcane/Divine at one thing. Heaven knows those two outweigh Psionics at about everything else, so a tip in our favor is nice every now and then.
CrimsonDeath 01-31-08, 03:39 PM	With two classes you have two restrictions on PP and what powers you can use them on. You should be tracking two separate PP pools as well, one for the "left class" and one for the "right class". The problem with that is, if your gestalt build actually multiclasses, it's possible to have one class switch from one "side" to the other, and it would be rather awkward for a Psion to only be able to access a fraction of his Psion PP for some powers and the balance of his PP for the others. Not to mention how confounding it would be to calculate the fractions in question.
CrimsonDeath 01-31-08, 03:40 PM	I've wondered what a PrC worth sacrificing both 'sides' of gestalt advancement might look like... Fochlucan Lyrist (because Gestalt is about the only way to qualify for the class with a remotely optimized build)