Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amaril 09-12-07, 02:24 PM	I think we're close to a final version of this item. I'm pretty comfortable with the power list, granted ability, and aura power. If anyone has some serious and constructive criticisms, I'm interested in hearing and weighing them. Dragon Mantle Granted Ability: You gain a +2 bonus to concentration checks. Because of your dedicated studying of draconic powers and ideals, you are able to understand, speak, read and write draconic. In addition, once per day, you can expend your psionic focus as a swift action to unsettle foes with your mere presence similarly to a dragon's frightful presence ability. Creatures within a radius of 5 feet/class level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than you. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + Cha modifier) remains immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become frightened for 1d4 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 1d4 rounds. Dragons, as well as creatures with access to the dragon mantle, ignore the effects of this ability. This ability does not grant you immunity to a dragon's frightful presence ability. Divine Mind Aura Power: You and allies within your aura gain a +2 bonus on saves against attacks made or effects created by dragons or dragonblood creatures. This bonus increases by 1 for every six class levels you have. 1 Channel the Psychic Dragon A: Gain bonus on skill checks and resistance based on chosen gem dragon. 2 Amethyst Burst A: Deal 2d6 force damage in 20-ft.-radius spread. 3 Breath Barrier A: You create a quasi-real barrier that moves with you. 3 Exhalation of the Black Dragon A: Your acid breath deals 3d6 damage to a close target. 3 Exhalation of the Bronze Dragon A: Exhale a cone of gas that unsettles your enemies for 1d4 rounds. 4 Dragon Hearted A: You gain an energy immunity and vulnerability depending on your preference for red or white dragons. 4 Gemstone Breath A: Gain breath weapon usable each round based on chosen gem dragon. 5 Crystal Body: Your body becomes living crystal. 5 Sense of the Dragon, Psionic A: You gain dragonlike senses. 6 Breath of the Black Dragon A: Breathe acid for 11d6 damage. This is a very early first draft, so go easy on it. I'm primarily interested in the list of powers and what should be added or removed. The granted ability needs work; don't hesitate to offer ideas. Granted Ability: While psionically focused, you gain a draconic aura of your choice with a bonus of +1 (see the dragon shaman class presented in Player's Handbook II). This bonus increases by +1 at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level to a maximum of +5. If you already have a draconic aura, you may select an additional aura. Effects from multiple draconic auras do not stack but overlap. For lists of draconic auras, refer to Player's Handbook II or Dragon Magic. Aura Power: As the energy shield draconic aura (see Player's Handbook II). If a divine mind chooses energy shield as the dragon mantle's granted abilty, it's effects do not stack with the dragon mantle's psychic aura. Aura Power: You and your allies gain a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells, powers and effects originating from creatures of the dragon type or dragonblood subtype. This bonus increases by +2 at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level to a maximum of +10. Aura Power: You and your allies gain a +2 bonus to Will saving throws against a dragon's frightful presence ability. This bonus increases by +2 at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level to a maximum of +10. Cut astral caravan and astral traveler. I originally had them in there to associate with the gem dragons' ability and tendency to travel to the Astral and Inner Planes. Added the thicken skin power to the list. Inserted draconic aura as the granted ability. It's bonus scales as per the dragon shaman's progression. Also added the mantle aura for the divine mind. Added another consideration for the granted ability. Added a new divine mind aura power. Added a another consideration for the divine mind's aura power associated with the second version of the granted ability. Switched metaphysical claw for claws of the beast. Cut the previous two aura powers and replaced it with the +2 bonus to saves against dragon and dragonblooded attacks and effects. Deleted the granted ability that used draconic auras. For simplicity, I decided to remove powers not explicitly draconic in theme and have the list include powers from Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic that had dragon-themed names or powers (let me know if I missed any) and all powers from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic with the exception of evade breath, which had two different power levels. Cleaned up and reworded the granted ability to be more reflective of the dragon's frightful presence ability. Nerfed the granted ability to a 5-foot radius and only a shaken effect.
vahju 09-12-07, 02:45 PM	Maybe change the granted ability to 1 or 2 DR for so many rounds. Most of the spells are damaging so maybe change 1 and 3 level power to something damaging or somethign dealing with improving senses.
awaken_D_M_golem 09-12-07, 03:06 PM	Substitute Powers Considering the esoteric nature of mantles, different ardents may have the same mantle but have different powers available to them. A mantle can have no more than ten powers in it, and if it has fewer, add further powers to fill the gaps if that mantle has no powers of that level. The powers need to fit the theme of the mantle at the DM's discretion. Otherwise, you can substitute a power of equal or lesser level. For example, the sense danger* power could be added to the Fate mantle as a 3rd-level power since only seven powers and no 3rd-level powers are in it, or the faint memory* power could replace escape detection in the Deception mantle. That's the official take on mantle design, in regards to powers. Your Granted Ability strikes me as very powerful, and closer to an Energy Adaptation in terms of power. One of the mantles has a granted ability that provides energy resistance 5, if i remember correctly, and also 10 with expend. Mind's Eye also has 4 different Element-like Mantles. I'd say you are in a similar ballpark. Maybe key the damage type to the dragon type. Dragons cast spells as a Sorceror, so some Sorc only feats might be good granted abilities, and some Sorcy spells can work as psi-powers. Might think about Charm Dragon / Dominate Dragon / Thrall Dragon as thematic powers. You definitly need to add 7th, 8th, and 9th level powers. Game design is hard, but worth it. Have fun.
Sysane 09-12-07, 03:34 PM	The concept needs a bit of refinement, but good start. I agree that the granted mantle power is a little over powered. I like the idea of granting DR. Another option is to grant a power that mimics an effect similar to a dragon's frightful presence ability. I would also like to add that thicken skin would be an appropriate power to be included under the dragon mantle.
kyeudo 09-12-07, 03:42 PM	Granted Ability: You can expend your psionic focus to create a barrier that can absorb up to a maximum of 60 points of damage before dissipating. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Wis modifier. 60 points of damage is a bit much for just your psionic focus.
Amaril 09-12-07, 03:54 PM	60 points of damage is a bit much for just your psionic focus. Yeah, I ripped it from the energy mantle, and it definitely doesn't work. Like I said, that's not the granted ability I want it to have; it's just filler.
RavinRay 09-12-07, 08:25 PM	What about a saving throw bonus against sleep and paralysis for the granted power; or a bonus on Diplomacy checks on gem dragons?
Amaril 09-12-07, 09:23 PM	What about a saving throw bonus against sleep and paralysis for the granted power; or a bonus on Diplomacy checks on gem dragons? Maybe, but for races such as elves, the sleep paralysis idea isn't much help. The bonus on diplomacy checks on gem dragons is also limited in game play.
kyeudo 09-12-07, 09:34 PM	I suggest making them count as Dragonblood characters for the purposes of taking feats and entering prestige classes as the granted ability. Think of it as a Psychometabolism effect.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 09:50 PM	you could have the granted mantle power be a weak dragon breath attack. like...d4's. expend focus to use it, have a 1d4 round cooldown time. etc. perhaps have a custom power that grants the half dragon template (along the lines of the ones that grant half celestial and half fiend templates)
RavinRay 09-12-07, 10:22 PM	Kyeudo's suggestion is nice; the character can also use items meant only for dragons. I'm also thinking of choosing a gem dragon's psi-like ability, usable for a set number of times per day. I'll look at my Dragon mag that has an class acts article on four new dragon domains (chromatic, gem, lung, and metallic) for inspiration.
Amaril 09-12-07, 10:28 PM	I suggest making them count as Dragonblood characters for the purposes of taking feats and entering prestige classes as the granted ability. Think of it as a Psychometabolism effect. I want to stay away from racial traits altogether as I plan to use this in a homebrew campaign setting that also utilizes Races of the Dragon. Thusly, Dragoborn, spellscale, and kobold ardents or divine minds would be left in the cold. you could have the granted mantle power be a weak dragon breath attack. like...d4's. expend focus to use it, have a 1d4 round cooldown time. etc. perhaps have a custom power that grants the half dragon template (along the lines of the ones that grant half celestial and half fiend templates) That's a possibility. I'll have to think about that more. I might grant draconic aura +1 (Player's Handbook II and Dragon Magic) which might increase to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level and +5 at 20th level.. Selecting an aura grants a lot of flexibility to the character without being overpowering.
Amaril 09-12-07, 11:10 PM	Inserted draconic aura as the granted ability. It's bonus scales as per the dragon shaman's progression. I also added the mantle aura for the divine mind.
Sysane 09-13-07, 08:50 AM	Inserted draconic aura as the granted ability. It's bonus scales as per the dragon shaman's progression. I also added the mantle aura for the divine mind. Can't say I agree with mimicking the dragon shaman's aura ability. It doesn't smack of psionics goodness IMO. However, if you're set on having this as the mantle power I'd add the stipulation that it requires the character to be psionically focus.
Amaril 09-13-07, 08:59 AM	Can't say I agree with mimicking the dragon shaman's aura ability. It doesn't smack off psionics goodness IMO. However, if you're set on having this as the mantle power I'd add the stipulation that it requires the character to be psionically focus. I think the draconic aura is strikingly psionic, especially in regards to it being an aura and usually being associated with energy types (many psionic powers relate to energy). Remember that this is supposed to be associated with dragons, too, not just psionics. I'll take a gander at the other psionic mantles and their granted abilities and compare and contrast them with the draconic auras just to make sure. If you have any other suggestions for a different granted ability, let me know. I definitely agree with the psionic focus part. I completely forgot to include that.
Sysane 09-13-07, 10:13 AM	Here's my crack at a potential mantle ability: Once per day, you can expend your focus to cause enemies that have line of sight to you to become unsettled. Creatures within a radius of 5 feet x your class level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than you. Potentially affected creatures that succeed on a Will save (DC10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier) are uneffected. On failure, creatures are affected for a number of equal 1 + half your class level. Creatures with fewer than 3 HD become frightened, and creatures with 3 or more HD become shaken. Dragons and other creatures with access to the dragon mantle are immune to this ability. This power is a mind-affecting ability.
Amaril 09-13-07, 11:33 AM	Here's my crack at a potential mantle ability: That seems like Frightful Presence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#frightfulPresence), which isn't bad. I would make it have an area of 30 feet and last for a number of rounds equal to half your HD. I would also add a line "an opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours." Questions: What is the appropriate mantle aura for the divine mind class? Should the abilities of the mantle be based on character HD or class level?
Sysane 09-13-07, 11:40 AM	That seems like Frightful Presence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#frightfulPresence), which isn't bad. I would make it have an area of 30 feet and last for a number of rounds equal to half your HD. I would also add a line "an opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours." It is based on that ability. I was trying to keep the radius smaller and grow with the character much like a divine mind's aura. I could make the duration equal to half class level. The reason I didn't include the "24 hour line" was that the ability can only be used once per day so there's no risk of being exposed to it twice. Questions: What is the appropriate mantle aura for the divine mind class? Should the abilities of the mantle be based on character HD or class level? I'll have to work on a divine mind ability. Most abilities are tied to class level rather than HD or character level.
Amaril 09-13-07, 12:10 PM	It is based on that ability. I was trying to keep the radius smaller and grow with the character much like a divine mind's aura. I could make the duration equal to half class level. The reason I didn't include the "24 hour line" was that the ability can only be used once per day so there's no risk of being exposed to it twice.Yeah, I realized the 24-hour issue as I was adding it above. I also like the smaller radius, but I was also speculating that it might be good to keep the radius fixed for higher levels. Maybe I'm being overly cautious. Most abilities are tied to class level rather than HD or character level.I actually prefer class level myself. It discourages level-dipping and further emphasized the importance of the class itself. I also reduced the number of rounds to reflect cause fear and allow it to scale a bit more. I was thinking of another granted ability: rebuke dragon. It's an alternative class ability for clerics and paladins in Dragon Magic. That might be a bit odd though.
Sagetim 09-13-07, 01:14 PM	Yeah, I realized the 24-hour issue as I was adding it above. I also like the smaller radius, but I was also speculating that it might be good to keep the radius fixed for higher levels. Maybe I'm being overly cautious. I actually prefer class level myself. It discourages level-dipping and further emphasized the importance of the class itself. I also reduced the number of rounds to reflect cause fear and allow it to scale a bit more. I was thinking of another granted ability: rebuke dragon. It's an alternative class ability for clerics and paladins in Dragon Magic. That might be a bit odd though. hmmm, dragon rebuking....I'd find it quite funny actually. Especially if it worked. Even more so if you got it to work on an ancient dragon. 'you, go away now, go on...shoo!' '*whimper*' 'go now, git!'
Sysane 09-13-07, 01:27 PM	Yeah, I realized the 24-hour issue as I was adding it above. I also like the smaller radius, but I was also speculating that it might be good to keep the radius fixed for higher levels. Maybe I'm being overly cautious. It could be capped to 100 feet max at 20th level. Its either that, or change it to 10 feet + 5 at every odd numbered class level (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc...) to slow down the increase in radius. I actually prefer class level myself. It discourages level-dipping and further emphasized the importance of the class itself. Agreed. I was thinking of another granted ability: rebuke dragon. It's an alternative class ability for clerics and paladins in Dragon Magic. That might be a bit odd though. Thats a possibility. That or maybe a repel dragon like effect thats similar to a sanctuary spell but with a scaling Will save DC equal to 10 + key manifesting attribute + class level. Here 's what I came up with for divine mind aura ability: Psychic Aura Dragon: You and your allies gain a +2 saving throw bonus against spells and effects originating from creatures of the dragon type. This bonus increases by +2 for every five class levels you have, to a maximun of +10 at 20th level.
Sysane 09-13-07, 02:53 PM	I looked over the mantle's power list again and would like to suggest the following for the 6th-level power. Breath of the Black Dragon A: Breathe acid for 11d6 damage. You also gain a special option unavailable to other manifesters of this power. Special: Upon manifesting this power, you choose acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Thought that it added some nice draconic flavor to the mantle.
InkBlot 09-13-07, 02:54 PM	If you're going to put that in, then you should add exhalation of the black dragon too. I believe there is a power in Secrets Of Sarlona which gives you a draconic tail, and another that gives you draconic horns.
Amaril 09-13-07, 03:25 PM	...maybe a repel dragon like effect thats similar to a sanctuary spell but with a scaling Will save DC equal to 10 + key manifesting attribute + class level. I think I like the two possibilities for granted abilities, and I'd like to finalize it. Of the two proposed, which would be better suited to the flavor of the divine mind/ardent and draconic themes? Here 's what I came up with for divine mind aura abilityI'm thinking applying the saving throw to a dragon's fearful presence might be a better option. I looked the mantle's power list again and would like to suggest the following for the 6th-level power. Thought that it added some nice draconic flavor to the mantle. I think energy cone and gemstone breath handle that well enough. If you're going to put that in, then you should add exhalation of the black dragon too.Something has to be dropped then, and I'm not sure exhalation of the black dragon offers that much more variety. I believe there is a power in Secrets Of Sarlona which gives you a draconic tail, and another that gives you draconic horns.I'm going to leave out campaign setting books. As it is, the mechanics from Player's Handbook II, Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon don't involve any campaign supplements, and I'd like to keep it as such. So, which versions of the granted ability and aura power should we keep?
Sysane 09-13-07, 03:28 PM	If you're going to put that in, then you should add exhalation of the black dragon too. I believe there is a power in Secrets Of Sarlona which gives you a draconic tail, and another that gives you draconic horns. Good call. I'd suggest replacing energy cone with exhalation of the black dragon with the same special option I offered for breath of the black dragon.
Sysane 09-13-07, 03:47 PM	I'm thinking applying the saving throw to a dragon's fearful presence might be a better option. The only issue I have with that is that makes the aura ability's usefulness extremely limited. Not every dragon has fearful presence. With having it apply to a dragon or dragonbloodeds other saving throw based abilities it become much more useful. I think energy cone and gemstone breath handle that well enough. True enough. But if you went with the BotBD with the special option you could squeeze in other non-breath/non-energy powers onto the list. As it is, you have two (possibly 3 if you add EotBD) breath powers on the list. Something has to be dropped then, and I'm not sure exhalation of the black dragon offers that much more variety. Another suggestion reagrding the powers list. I'd switch out metaphysical claw for claws of the beast. Its much more draconic.
Amaril 09-13-07, 05:51 PM	The only issue I have with that is that makes the aura ability's usefulness extremely limited. Not every dragon has fearful presence. With having it apply to a dragon or dragonbloodeds other saving throw based abilities it become much more useful. Which dragons do not have frightful presence? True enough. But if you went with the BotBD with the special option you could squeeze in other non-breath/non-energy powers onto the list. As it is, you have two (possibly 3 if you add EotBD) breath powers on the list. I'm not keen on the special option idea. I'm not a big proponent of arbitrary exceptions and alterations to game mechanics. Another suggestion reagrding the powers list. I'd switch out metaphysical claw for claws of the beast. Its much more draconic.Agreed and done. Sooo... which granted ability should I go with? Personally, I like the idea of a psionic character having access to draconic auras, but that doesn't mean it's the better option.
kyeudo 09-13-07, 06:00 PM	Why isn't Exhalation of the Black Dragon on there as well as Breath of the Black Dragon?
awaken_D_M_golem 09-13-07, 06:21 PM	:uh-huh: You're doing this for a Divine Mind ?! Wow. Good night and good luck. Special: Upon manifesting this power, you choose acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic, or force. Hey. You're getting this special "augment" at the same time you get the power - 20th level. Not quite a 9th level power/spell. Divine Mind auras ... hmm. One of them gives Precognition to every one who enters the aura, but usable 1/day, and not upon re-entry if used already. That's a 1st level power, but self only - for everybody. Some of the others strike me as Share Power -types. Perhaps anything you could share with a Psicrystal could be Aura-able. Death goes further with a 2nd level spell, but just you only. Others are just a Feat, but for everybody. So: Psychic Aura Dragon: You and your allies gain a +2 saving throw bonus against spells and effects originating from creatures of the dragon type. This bonus increases by +2 for every five class levels you have, to a maximun of +10 at 20th level. Help out a Divine Mind, eh.
Amaril 09-13-07, 07:08 PM	Why isn't Exhalation of the Black Dragon on there as well as Breath of the Black Dragon? We already discussed this (scroll up). Basically, I'd have to remove something else, and I don't think it adds much more given the nature of gemstone breath. :uh-huh: You're doing this for a Divine Mind ?! Wow. Good night and good luck.Not exactly. I'm doing this for a dragon-themed setting in which psionics will be included. The setting uses the draconic pantheon (i.e. - Io, Bahamut, Tiamat, Chronepsis, et. al. as well as Sardior). Given that, I wanted to design a dragon mantle that could associated with the pantheon. In designing the mantle, I forgot about the divine mind's mantle aura, and so I'm trying to make sure this mantle accomodates that mechanic. Do you dislike the divine mind or something? Hey. You're getting this special "augment" at the same time you get the power - 20th level. Not quite a 9th level power/spell.If you're referring to the special option proposed in the post above, I'm not too keen on it myself. Divine Mind auras ... hmm. One of them gives Precognition to every one who enters the aura, but usable 1/day, and not upon re-entry if used already. That's a 1st level power, but self only - for everybody. Some of the others strike me as Share Power -types. Perhaps anything you could share with a Psicrystal could be Aura-able. Death goes further with a 2nd level spell, but just you only. Others are just a Feat, but for everybody.What's the implication? So: Help out a Divine Mind, eh.Still not getting your meaning in your edit. Could you be a bit more elaborate in your communication?
awaken_D_M_golem 09-13-07, 07:46 PM	-What's the implication? Auras ~might be about a 1st level power, if it affects everybody. Auras ~might be about a 2nd level power, if it affects just you. Maybe. There's no design suggestion. DM fiat for yay or nay. -Still not getting your meaning in your edit. Could you be a bit more elaborate in your communication? At Epic levels, there's no reason to cap something the Divine Mind can do that another class can't. The Divine Mind is not good broken, by any stretch.
Amaril 09-13-07, 08:40 PM	At Epic levels, there's no reason to cap something the Divine Mind can do that another class can't. The Divine Mind is not good broken, by any stretch. The limit is based on examples of other mantle aura powers that have similar limits. Speaking of which, I went through some of the mantle aura powers from the divine mind section in Complete Psionic for further inspiration. Looking at the Law, Mental Power and Chaos, I came up with this: You and allies within your aura gain a +2 bonus on saves against attacks made or effects created by dragons or dragonblooded creatures. This bonus increases by 1 for every six class levels you have. It's simple and elegant, and it scales just as well as the others. Note that the campaign setting in which this will be used is heavily populated with dragons and dragonblooded creatures including spawn of Tiamat.
Sysane 09-13-07, 10:09 PM	Which dragons do not have frightful presence? This is just off the top of my head: Dragon Turtle, pseudodragon, faerie dragon, elemental drakes, & half-dragons. I'm pretty sure there are many others. I'm not keen on the special option idea. I'm not a big proponent of arbitrary exceptions and alterations to game mechanics. This really isn't an exception to psionic mechanics though. Additional options for powers have already been introduced. Look at the Light & Darkness or Fate mantles in Complete Psionic. Control light under Light & Darkness has an additional augment option and Fate of One under Fate has an additional augment as well. If it makes you feel any better, change the special option to an additional augment option as follows: Augment: If you spend 3 additional power points, you can change the type of damage delivered by this power from acid to either cold, electricity, fire, or sonic.
Sysane 09-13-07, 10:11 PM	Speaking of which, I went through some of the mantle aura powers from the divine mind section in Complete Psionic for further inspiration. Looking at the Law, Mental Power and Chaos, I came up with this: You and allies within your aura gain a +2 bonus on saves against attacks made or effects created by dragons or dragonblooded creatures. This bonus increases by 1 for every six class levels you have. It's simple and elegant, and it scales just as well as the others. Note that the campaign setting in which this will be used is heavily populated with dragons and dragonblooded creatures including spawn of Tiamat. I can live with that. Its fitting.
Amaril 09-13-07, 10:39 PM	This is just off the top of my head: Dragon Turtle, pseudodragon, faerie dragon, elemental drakes, & half-dragons. I'm pretty sure there are many others. Oh, I was thinking of true, gem, and planar dragons. I can live with that. Its fitting.Cool. Now we just need to figure out the granted ability and finalize the list of powers. Stealing from chaos and law again: You can expend your psionic focus to deal additional damage to dragons or dragonblood creatures. You deal an additional 1d6 points of damage with a melee or ranged attack, or a spell or power that deals damage.
Sysane 09-13-07, 10:49 PM	Stealing from chaos and law again: You can expend your psionic focus to deal additional damage to dragons or dragonblood creatures. You deal an additional 1d6 points of damage with a melee or ranged attack, or a spell or power that deals damage. My issue with dealing additional points of damage to dragons as a granted ability is that mantles are suppose to represent philosophical concepts. I'd imagine that a philosophy based on the ideology of dragons wouldn't realistically bestow an ability to deal extra damage against them.
Amaril 09-13-07, 11:04 PM	My issue with dealing additional points of damage to dragons as a granted ability is that mantles are suppose to represent philosophical concepts. I'd imagine that a philosophy based on the ideology of dragons wouldn't realistically bestow an ability to deal extra damage against them. You beat me to it. I was going to edit the post in hindsight. one who reveres dragons wouldn't apply extra damage to them. I'm kind of sticking to the frightful presence concept. I like it.
Sysane 09-13-07, 11:13 PM	You beat me to it. I was going to edit the post in hindsight. one who reveres dragons wouldn't apply extra damage to them. I'm kind of sticking to the frightful presence concept. I like it. Fair enough. Lets work on refining that ability. I have one last pitch for an ability however. As mediocre as this may be, how about this. While psionically focused, you gain a bonus equal to twice your class level on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks made against dragons.
Amaril 09-13-07, 11:21 PM	Fair enough. Lets work on refining that ability. I have one last pitch for an ability however. As mediocre as this may be, how about this. None of those are class skills for divine minds and ardents except for diplomacy which is a class skill for ardents. but not divine minds.
Sysane 09-13-07, 11:30 PM	None of those are class skills for divine minds and ardents except for diplomacy which is a class skill for ardents. but not divine minds. It doesn't need to be. A ranger gets a +2 on Bluff & Sense Motive (which should also be included on the ability I just pitched) checks vs. their favored enemy and doesn't have either of them as class skills. This bonus scales with the divine mind and ardent every level, so spending points in those skills isn't even necessary if really you think about it.
kyeudo 09-14-07, 01:07 AM	The problem with abilities that give you bonuses to social skills is that with relative ease you can build a diplomancer to take advantage of it. Give me that ability and I'll have great wyrm gold dragons for pets with no trouble at all, and still have 9th level powers.
Amaril 09-14-07, 08:46 AM	If I did use the skill bonus, I would write it similarly to the others which offer +2 while focused, +5 when focus is expended.
Sysane 09-14-07, 08:59 AM	If I did use the skill bonus, I would write it similarly to the others which offer +2 while focused, +5 when focus is expended. Because its limited to a specific type of creature it should offer more of a bonus than just +2/+5.
Amaril 09-14-07, 09:08 AM	Because its limited to a specific type of creature it should offer more of a bonus than just +2/+5. +5 to Diplomacy seems to be a bit strong as is.
Sysane 09-14-07, 09:21 AM	+5 to Diplomacy seems to be a bit strong as is. What do the other abilities offer as a bonus? Is it a unnamed bonus? Is it useable against all creatures or only a specific creature type?
Amaril 09-14-07, 09:47 AM	What do the other abilities offer as a bonus? Is it a unnamed bonus? Is it useable against all creatures or only a specific creature type? Most seem to be +2 unnamed bonuses to one skill against any creature type. The communication mantle provides a +2 competence bonus to diplomacy. Others allow you to use a skill untrained with no bonus, but you can gain a +5 unnamed bonus when you expend your focus. The diplomacy concept is interesting, but it reflects too much of the communication mantle. I honestly prefer a granted ability that reflects an ability of a dragon, and something similar to frightful presence represents that.
Sysane 09-14-07, 09:53 AM	Most seem to be +2 unnamed bonuses to one skill against any creature type. The communication mantle provides a +2 competence bonus to diplomacy. Others allow you to use a skill untrained with no bonus, but you can gain a +5 unnamed bonus when you expend your focus. The diplomacy concept is interesting, but it reflects too much of the communication mantle. I honestly prefer a granted ability that reflects an ability of a dragon, and something similar to frightful presence represents that. Fair enough. I'll look over frightful presence again and see if we can refine that ability.
Sysane 09-14-07, 10:26 AM	I think the only thing that needs to be worked on for the frightful presence ability is the duration. 1d4 + class level may be a little over powered. What are your thoughts on reducing it to either 1d4 + 1/2 class level or 1d4 + Cha modifer?
Amaril 09-14-07, 10:55 AM	I think the only thing that needs to be worked on for the frightful presence ability is the duration. 1d4 + class level may be a little over powered. What are your thoughts on reducing it to either 1d4 + 1/2 class level or 1d4 + Cha modifer? We could just simplify the whole thing and just use cause fear, similarly to the death mantle's death knell ability. You can expend your psionic focus to strike fear into a creature, as the cause fear spell. Cause Fear Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Death 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One living creature with 5 or fewer HD Duration: 1d4 rounds or 1 round; see text Saving Throw: Will partial Spell Resistance: Yes The affected creature becomes frightened. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, it is shaken for 1 round. Creatures with 6 or more Hit Dice are immune to this effect. Cause fear counters and dispels remove fear. Alternatively, we could change it drastically and model it after the life mantle: If you expend your psionic focus as a swift action as you manifest a power from this mantle, your manifester level for that power is considered 1 higher (thus increasing the number of power points you can spend on manifesting the power, among other benefits). This latter option adds a lot more flexibility to the powers on the list.
Sysane 09-14-07, 11:23 AM	We could just simplify the whole thing and just use cause fear, similarly to the death mantle's death knell ability. You can expend your psionic focus to strike fear into a creature, as the cause fear spell. I'd agree with the cause fear effect if we had it that it affected all enemy creatures within 10 feet radius instead of just one target. Or up grade it to mimic the spell scare with the limitation that it can't effect creatures of the dragon type or with access to the Dragon Mantle. Alternatively, we could change it drastically and model it after the life mantle: If you expend your psionic focus as a swift action as you manifest a power from this mantle, your manifester level for that power is considered 1 higher (thus increasing the number of power points you can spend on manifesting the power, among other benefits). This latter option adds a lot more flexibility to the powers on the list. Not to big a fan of this ability. Seems kind of bland for this mantle. Another ability to ponder is one that allows the divine mind/ardent to sprout draconic wings that allow a fly speed for a limited amount of time.
vahju 09-15-07, 06:13 PM	How about change the granted ability to change one of your mantle powers to another element once per day or so many times based on primary ability. You must expend your psionic focus when using this ability. Elements that can be selected: fire, acid, cold, or lightning This would make exhilation of the blank dragon and other elemental powers very versitle.
Sysane 09-16-07, 12:30 AM	How about change the granted ability to change one of your mantle powers to another element once per day or so many times based on primary ability. You must expend your psionic focus when using this ability. Elements that can be selected: fire, acid, cold, or lightning This would make exhilation of the blank dragon and other elemental powers very versitle. Not a bad idea. The only problem I see is that it would only come into play at later levels. A mantle power should be useful from the get go at 1st-level. Speaking of powers, I've been looking over the mantles powers list again and came up with another set powers which I feel would better capture the ideals of dragons. This is just a suggestion so take it for what its worth: 1 Channel the Psychic Dragon 1 Claws of the Beast 1 Thicken Skin 2 Distracting Shout (emulates a dragon's roar) 3 Exhalation of the Bronze Dragon 4 Gemstone Breath 4 Metamorphsis (can assume form of creatures with the dragon type only) 5 Sense of the Dragon, Psionic 6 Breath of the Black Dragon Its pretty much in line with your original list with some minor changes. Let me know what you think.
Amaril 09-16-07, 01:26 AM	Its pretty much in line with your original list with some minor changes. Let me know what you think. I like the new list. I'll update it.
vahju 09-16-07, 10:11 AM	Not a bad idea. The only problem I see is that it would only come into play at later levels. A mantle power should be useful from the get go at 1st-level. There are only a handful of powers on that list that are breath weapon related and you don't get those right away so limiting the granted ability to breathe weapons may not make sense. Also could limit this to 1 time a day per (3 or 5) class levels. Another idea is to have the character choose the type of dragon when they pick this mantle (black, green, red, white, ...). Based on the dragon type all powers in that mantle are changed to the appropriate element of the dragon type picked permanently.
Sysane 09-16-07, 10:29 AM	There are only a handful of powers on that list that are breath weapon related and you don't get those right away so limiting the granted ability to breathe weapons may not make sense. Also could limit this to 1 time a day per (3 or 5) class levels Another idea is to have the character choose the type of dragon when they pick this mantle (black, green, red, white, ...). Based on the dragon type all powers in that mantle are changed to the appropriate element of the dragon type picked permanently. There's also only a handful of powers that actually deal energy damage on the list. Again, the mantle's power shouldn't be limited to a specific set of powers. It should be useful at all levels regardless of your power selection.
Amaril 09-16-07, 10:32 AM	I like the new list. I'll update it. Actually, I'm going to give these more thought when I return from out of town. I might have some other ideas for the list of powers.
Amaril 09-16-07, 09:50 PM	For simplicity, I decided to remove powers not explicitly draconic in theme and have the list include powers from Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psionic that had dragon-themed names or powers (let me know if I missed any) and all powers from Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic with the exception of evade breath, which had two different power levels.
Sysane 09-16-07, 10:05 PM	Simple yet in line with the flavor of the mantle. I can live with it.
Amaril 09-16-07, 10:48 PM	OK, I think we're close to a final version of this item. I'm pretty comfortable with the power list, granted ability, and aura power. If anyone has some serious and constructive criticisms, I'm interested in hearing and weighing them. I want to thank everyone, especially Sysane, for contributing to this idea. I think it's pretty respectable for it's purpose and context, which is a homebrew dragon-themed setting that will feature dragons and dragonblood creatures among traditional D&D creatures.
Sysane 09-17-07, 08:32 AM	I want to thank everyone, especially Sysane, for contributing to this idea. I think it's pretty respectable for it's purpose and context. Don't mention it. It's a welcome alternative to actually working. ;) Got a question for you. I'm not familiar with the powers crystal body & amethyst burst. What makes these draconic other than they're gem related and the fact that there are gem dragons?
Amaril 09-17-07, 09:16 AM	Got a question for you. I'm not familiar with the powers crystal body & amethyst burst. What makes these draconic other than they're gem related and the fact that there are gem dragons? In all honesty, not much except for the fact that they were presented in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic. I find them a bit odd for books with strong draconic themes, but since they are both being used heavily in this homebrew, I felt the powers presented in those two books should be associated with the dragon mantle. It makes it easy to create the list and also provides automatic integration of those powers within the setting.
Sysane 09-17-07, 09:24 AM	In all honesty, not much except for the fact that they were presented in either Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic. I find them a bit odd for books with strong draconic themes, but since they are both being used heavily in this homebrew, I felt the powers presented in those two books should be associated with the dragon mantle. It makes it easy to create the list and also provides automatic integration of those powers within the setting. Fair enough. Good job. Keep us posted on how this plays in your campaign. Especially the mantle and aura abilities.
Amaril 09-17-07, 09:33 AM	Fair enough. Good job. Keep us posted on how this plays in your campaign. Especially the mantle and aura abilities. Thanks. It'll be some time before I get the campaign setting up and running. Right now, I'm simply working on a campaign guide. In the meant time, though, I might drop this into Eyes of the Lich Queen, which has a heavy draconic theme to it; I'm changing some of the encounters around to include more spawn of Tiamat and might include an NPC divine mind with the dragon mantle as a playtest.
Sysane 09-18-07, 09:43 AM	I have a concern over the granted ability. Is it meant to be usable more than once per day? As written it appears that it can be used repeatedly so long as the character expends their focus. If that is the case the ability would be over powered. I'd suggest limiting it to 1 + your Cha modifer times per day.
Amaril 09-18-07, 03:49 PM	I have a concern over the granted ability. Is it meant to be usable more than once per day? As written it appears that it can be used repeatedly so long as the character expends their focus. If that is the case the ability would be over powered.I was trying to emulate the other mantles that allow for using the respective power by expending psionic focus, but when you compare this ability to the dread necromancer's fear aura ability. It is greatly overpowered. (Fear aura is a free action that affects a 5-ft. radius and only makes creatures become shaken upon the first use; subsequent uses change the condition to frightened and then panicked.) I think I'll just duplicate that ability verbatim, with the addition of requiring the expenditure of psionic focus. Thoughts?
Sysane 09-18-07, 03:56 PM	I was trying to emulate the other mantles that allow for using the respective power by expending psionic focus, but when you compare this ability to the dread necromancer's fear aura ability. It is greatly overpowered. (Fear aura is a free action that affects a 5-ft. radius and only makes creatures become shaken upon the first use; subsequent uses change the condition to frightened and then panicked.) I think I'll just duplicate that ability verbatim, with the addition of requiring the expenditure of psionic focus. Thoughts? I feel the ability you have is fine as it is. It just needs a set number of times it can be used within a 24 hour period. The fact that it requires focus to be expended, effects a limited amount of creatures types, effect those creatures only once per 24 hours, and usable a set number of times a day keeps it in balance.
Amaril 09-18-07, 04:49 PM	I feel the ability you have is fine as it is. It just needs a set number of times it can be used within a 24 hour period. The fact that it requires focus to be expended, effects a limited amount of creatures types, effect those creatures only once per 24 hours, and usable a set number of times a day keeps it in balance. Somewhat. Limiting the number of uses changes how mantles are supposed to function when they depend on psionic focus. Considering this is an effect that can be used at 1st level, I think the rewrite is more in balance with the dread necromancer's 5th-level fear aura ability. Addtionally, the scaling of the Will save by class level, stacking of fear effects and making it a swift action help keep it relatively powerful at higher levels, too.
Sysane 09-18-07, 10:06 PM	Somewhat. Limiting the number of uses changes how mantles are supposed to function when they depend on psionic focus. Considering this is an effect that can be used at 1st level, I think the rewrite is more in balance with the dread necromancer's 5th-level fear aura ability. Addtionally, the scaling of the Will save by class level, stacking of fear effects and making it a swift action help keep it relatively powerful at higher levels, too. The Fate & Time mantles' granted powers are only useable once per day and require psionic focus to be expended. You would be justified changing the Dragon mantle's power to be the same. If you were trying to create a Fear mantle I'd agree with your logic. However, I feel changing the power to mirror the dread necromancer's ability is straying from the draconic flavor of this mantle and the dragon's frightful presence ability that its trying to mimic .
Amaril 09-18-07, 10:25 PM	The Fate & Time mantles' granted powers are only useable once per day and require psionic focus to be expended. You would be justified changing the Dragon mantle's power to be the same. If you were trying to create a Fear mantle I'd agree with your logic. However, I feel changing the power to mirror the dread necromancer's ability is straying from the draconic flavor of this mantle and the dragon's frightful presence ability that its trying to mimic . That sound fair. I'll revert it and add in a one/day limitation.
Sysane 09-19-07, 08:44 AM	That sound fair. I'll revert it and add in a one/day limitation. Nice. I noticed that you also added that the mantle power offers a +2 bonus to concentration checks. What is your rationale behind that? If its because you don't think the mantle is offering much due to frightful presence being limited to once per day I can accept wanting to give a little bit more. I don't think giving a bump in concentration captures the draconic flavor of the mantle though. I'd suggest either granting draconic as a bonus language or a +2 competence bonus to Knowledge (arcana) checks pertaining to dragons.
Amaril 09-19-07, 09:04 AM	Nice. I noticed that you also added that the mantle power offers a +2 bonus to concentration checks. What is your rationale behind that? If its because you don't think the mantle is offering much due to frightful presence being limited to once per day I can accept wanting to give a little bit more. I don't think giving a bump in concentration captures the draconic flavor of the mantle though. I'd suggest either granting draconic as a bonus language or a +2 competence bonus to Knowledge (arcana) checks pertaining to dragons. Several reasons: All gem, chromatic, and metallic dragons have concentration as a class skill. Psionicists depend on concentration for a significant number of things The bonus helps with regaining psionic focus, which requires a concentration check. Knowledge (arcana) is nice, but then what about knowledge (psionics)? Gem dragons count as psionic monsters IMHO. As such, I figured concentration was a more common denominator.
Sysane 09-19-07, 09:38 AM	Knowledge (arcana) is nice, but then what about knowledge (psionics)? Gem dragons count as psionic monsters IMHO. As such, I figured concentration was a more common denominator. True enough, but is the point of the mantle meant to emulate the ideology of gem dragons only or of all dragons? I would think the later. While its true that Concentration is a class skill for dragons so is Use Magic Device and several others. None of them are really in line with the mantle IMO. All characters with mantles could benefit from a bonus to Concentration. I still feel that draconic as a bonus langauge or a Knowledge check bonus is the better route to go. However, you are free to do what you will with your mantle :)
Amaril 09-19-07, 11:51 AM	True enough, but is the point of the mantle meant to emulate the ideology of gem dragons only or of all dragons? I would think the later. While its true that Concentration is a class skill for dragons so is Use Magic Device and several others. None of them are really in line with the mantle IMO. All characters with mantles could benefit from a bonus to Concentration. I still feel that draconic as a bonus langauge or a Knowledge check bonus is the better route to go. However, you are free to do what you will with your mantle :) I don't think Concentration is necessarily an allusion to gem dragons only, and other skills such as Use Magic Device aren't as associative with psionics. Anyway, I just thought a little something would be useful, but I didn't want to overthink it. Consider that in a dragon-themed setting, enough races, classes, PrCs, etc. either require or grant draconic as a bonus or automatic language. In fact, most psionic races have draconic as a bonus language already.
Sysane 09-19-07, 12:06 PM	I don't think Concentration is necessarily an allusion to gem dragons only I was referring more to your mention of knowledge (psionics) in relation to gem dragons than I was to Concentration. Consider that in a dragon-themed setting, enough races, classes, PrCs, etc. either require or grant draconic as a bonus or automatic language. In fact, most psionic races have draconic as a bonus language already. Typo on my part. What I meant to imply was that they could gain draconic as a free language rather than one you could select due to a high Int modifier or purchase thru skill points. Seemed fitting regardless if being used in a dragon heavy campaign or not.
Sysane 09-19-07, 12:25 PM	Question. What are your thoughts about adding the stipulation of that the character needs to be attacking or manifesting a damaging power at the same time he uses this ability in addition to expending focus? This would capture the dragon's frightful presence mechanic of the ability taking effect automatically whenever they attack, charge, or fly overhead.
Amaril 09-19-07, 01:52 PM	Typo on my part. What I meant to imply was that they could gain draconic as a free language rather than one you could select due to a high Int modifier or purchase thru skill points. Seemed fitting regardless if being used in a dragon heavy campaign or not. I've been weighing that option since my previous post actually. I like what it represents. What are your thoughts about adding the stipulation of that the character needs to be attacking or manifesting a damaging power at the same time he uses this ability in addition to expending focus? This would capture the dragon's frightful presence mechanic of the ability taking effect automatically whenever they attack, charge, or fly overhead.I think it restricts the use. Remember, a dragon can use the ability just by flying overhead, and sometimes non-violently using frightening presence might be the preferred method of dealing with an encounter without causing actual harm.
Sysane 09-19-07, 03:50 PM	I've been weighing that option since my previous post actually. I like what it represents. Mul it over and let me know what you decide. I think it restricts the use. Remember, a dragon can use the ability just by flying overhead, and sometimes non-violently using frightening presence might be the preferred method of dealing with an encounter without causing actual harm. Fair enough. I just thought I'd throw it out there.
Amaril 09-20-07, 02:35 PM	Mul it over and let me know what you decide. I'm gonna change it.
Sysane 09-20-07, 09:57 PM	I'm gonna change it. Nice. Looks like you're pretty much done. Again, let me know how this play tests.