Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Varl 09-10-07, 11:16 AM	Does a psionic power's duration, unless it's instantaneous, burn up power points on a round by round basis? If not, why not? Do you think psionic powers should require maintenance costs instead of a simple one-time cost? I prefer the idea of using maintenance costs vs. durations, and I've discovered that durations and a maintenance costs cannot co-exist side-by-side. Maintenance costs becomes the duration of the power by default. The number of power points you have dictates the duration of powers you manifest. I'm curious what others think of this idea. Thanks.
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 11:19 AM	No, it doesn't. Do a mage's spells have a maintenance cost in spell slots? Most of a psionic character's duration-based powers require concentration. That's the only 'maintenance cost' that they incur. If you want higher durations to cost more, make them augments. Go from 1 round/lvl to 1 min/lvl to 10 min/lvl to 1 hour/lvl for spending more power points. I'm already doing this for many powers in my XPH Powers Revision.
AntiDjinn 09-10-07, 11:52 AM	Yes, what could possibly enhance the enjoyment of a heroic fantasy game more than round-to-round bookkeeping? DM: "The monster hits you for...." Player: "Wait, my AC is 24!" DM: "Did you remember to pay for Inertial Armor and Force Screen this round?" Player: "Damn!" Good times, good times. Accountancy is, indeed, the soul of roleplaying. When he uses a power with a duration of Concentration, your character is maintaining the effect by spending a character resource (his action). When he enjoys the benefit of Inertial Armor, your character probably is maintaining the effect with his continued attention, though the cost and the possible Concentration check are only made once. There is seriously no need to make the player do this drudge-work. Do you suppose the DM wants to do this with every psionic monster or NPC? The mechanics at the table should be streamlined and simplified, even if you imagine that much more is going on in the game world. Seriously, do you make players of mages bring bat poop to the table to simulate the supposition that their characters are carrying it? Do you require players of clerics to speak in tongues and bring a thermos of holy water to the game? No? Then don't inflict clunky mechanics on psionic players when it is just as easy to assume that their characters are keeping effects going though they are fire-and-forget at the gaming table.
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 12:08 PM	If you want something like this, try Magic of Incarnum. That'd be right up your alley. It's easy, simple, and has somewhat of a 'maintenance cost' involved. You don't expend resources, but rather allocate them as you desire.
Varl 09-10-07, 02:28 PM	Yes, what could possibly enhance the enjoyment of a heroic fantasy game more than round-to-round bookkeeping? DM: "The monster hits you for...." Player: "Wait, my AC is 24!" DM: "Did you remember to pay for Inertial Armor and Force Screen this round?" Player: "Damn!" Good times, good times. Accountancy is, indeed, the soul of roleplaying. Actually, the system I'm working on is more intangible than what you're making it out to be here. If the player hasn't let me know that he's attempting to manifest something new other than the Inertial Armor or Force Screen he already has up, he's automatically still paying their maintenance costs until he decides to cancel them. There is seriously no need to make the player do this drudge-work. Do you suppose the DM wants to do this with every psionic monster or NPC? The mechanics at the table should be streamlined and simplified, even if you imagine that much more is going on in the game world. Drudge work? You mean, like the tracking of damage to a character's physical body requires players to undergo the unfortunate drudge work of keeping track of their hit points? That kind of drudge work? Give me a break. Seriously, do you make players of mages bring bat poop to the table to simulate the supposition that their characters are carrying it? Do you require players of clerics to speak in tongues and bring a thermos of holy water to the game? No? Then don't inflict clunky mechanics on psionic players when it is just as easy to assume that their characters are keeping effects going though they are fire-and-forget at the gaming table. Clunky mechanics. Right, because the tracking of hps, save modifiers, modifiers to skills, level adjustments, racial modifiers, magical modifiers, and a myriad of other things players have to track in the game are any less clunky. Don't get me started on ability score changes! And I can't believe you mentioned the tracking of reagents or that ridiculous religious question are anywhere on the same level as to what I'm working on. You should be ashamed of yourself. :ahem: BTW, thank you Lycanthromancer, for the tip and the advice sans attitude. I'll check out Incarnum. :)
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 02:37 PM	Oh, I have plenty of attitude. I just bottle it up and direct it elsewhere. Incarnum is some pretty good stuff; it has some pretty bits, but unfortunately it's rather underpowered, and not that versatile (unfortunately).
Bacris 09-10-07, 02:39 PM	Sorry, but you're severely penalizing psionic characters here. Manifesters - before about 15th level, that is - have to hoard their power points like a miser with his gold. By making him hemmorrage power points every round to keep effects going, you're doubly penalizing him. Do you make a wizard pay a spell slot every round for haste or other long-term spells that have a duration of Concentration? If not, don't do it to the manifesters - it's unfair and will make the manifesters unbalanced, unless you increase their power point pool, thereby making imbalance in another way.
CrimsonDeath 09-10-07, 03:52 PM	Actually, the system I'm working on is more intangible than what you're making it out to be here. If the player hasn't let me know that he's attempting to manifest something new other than the Inertial Armor or Force Screen he already has up, he's automatically still paying their maintenance costs until he decides to cancel them. Do you know the duration of Inertial Armor? One hour per level. And you want to make the psion pay an upkeep on it by the round? Three things automatically scale for spellcasters as they increase in level: Range, duration, and damage. Damage does not automatically scale for manifesters; they have to pay for it. Now you want to make them pay for duration, too? And on a per-round basis? Also, from your latest comment, it appears as though a manifester would only be able to have one power active at a time. So you can't have a high AC (inertial armor), energy resistance (energy adaptation), protection from mind-affecting effect (mind blank), and an attack power (energy wall) all up at the same time. You'd have to choose, round by round, how your opponent is best able to kill you, or decide to be completely vulnerable and try to contribute toward ending the encounter. Furthermore, even if you know a power that can help an ally (of which there are a few), you can't help more than one ally at a time, nor an ally and yourself at the same time. Meanwhile, let's not forget the action cost of manifesting a power. There are only three actions a psion can use to manifest a power: Standard, Move, or Swift. Many builds, both casters and manifesters, have five or six buffs running all day. In other words, what you're describing, if I understand it correctly, would require a complete overhaul of the psionics system in order to produce a character that's capable of functioning in a normal D&D party.
sijigs 09-10-07, 07:05 PM	Do you know the duration of Inertial Armor? One hour per level. And you want to make the psion pay an upkeep on it by the round? 1 round = 6 seconds 10 rounds = 60 seconds/1 minute 60 minutes x 10 rounds = 600 rounds So a 5 hour inertial armor costs you 3,000 points Yeah.. that's easy. :rolleyes:
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 07:07 PM	Yeah, I can see that being a psion is going to be REALLY popular in that group...
Varl 09-10-07, 07:22 PM	Do you know the duration of Inertial Armor? One hour per level. And you want to make the psion pay an upkeep on it by the round? No, that's not it would work. There wouldn't be a finite duration; the "duration" of the power would be how long the psionicist decides to keep it active, be that for a round, a minute, or an hour or more. PSPs would be the only restriction on how long he could maintain it. Three things automatically scale for spellcasters as they increase in level: Range, duration, and damage. Damage does not automatically scale for manifesters; they have to pay for it. Now you want to make them pay for duration, too? And on a per-round basis? Yes and no. See above. Also, from your latest comment, it appears as though a manifester would only be able to have one power active at a time. They'll be able to manifest as many powers as their heart desires, based strictly on how many PSPs they have. It's as simple as that. Meanwhile, let's not forget the action cost of manifesting a power. There are only three actions a psion can use to manifest a power: Standard, Move, or Swift. Not applicable for my system. In other words, what you're describing, if I understand it correctly, would require a complete overhaul of the psionics system in order to produce a character that's capable of functioning in a normal D&D party. Well, that part is correct to be sure. And to be fair to AntiDjinn and the rest of you, I probably shouldn't have posted the original question here. Why? My system is a hybrid between 2e and 3.5, so this is probably why we're not seeing eye to eye on a lot of things. I apologize for that. But in the end, I've been around 2e psionics for 27 years, and 3.5 psionics for considerably less time, but even so, I know that using the 3.5 psionics system as a base for the system I want to run under 2e can be created. I've got more work to do on it before I get it where I want it to be. Anyway, thanks for the comments and critiques thus far. It all helps me get my 2.3.5e psionics system the way want it to be. :D
Varl 09-10-07, 07:34 PM	1 round = 6 seconds 10 rounds = 60 seconds/1 minute 60 minutes x 10 rounds = 600 rounds So a 5 hour inertial armor costs you 3,000 points Yeah.. that's easy. :rolleyes: Try thinking this way instead: Imagine if Inertial Armor came with a maintenance cost of 1 PSP per hour, or even 1 PSP per hour per level.
sijigs 09-10-07, 07:53 PM	But in the end, I've been around 2e psionics for 27 years, and 3.5 psionics for considerably less time, but even so, I know that using the 3.5 psionics system as a base for the system I want to run under 2e can be created. 27 years, really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think 2e didn't exist in 1980... :eek:
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 07:56 PM	27 years, really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think 2e didn't exist in 1980... :eek:I don't not think no double-entendres don't not work that way.
Psionx 09-10-07, 08:10 PM	Try thinking this way instead: Imagine if Inertial Armor came with a maintenance cost of 1 PSP per hour, or even 1 PSP per hour per level. You know what, if the coin flips both ways... its all good. Magic duration spells have to sacrifice spell slots (albeit small ones) to maintain duration effects. This will make it fair for everyone. Alternatively I gotta say, this is one hell of a way to make fighters alot more appealing... Essentially he's saying: repeat cost of the power for another duration increment: if it costs 1 pp for a minute/level then every minute it costs 1 pp to keep it up. NOTE: If I ever played in your group: fission+affinity field+affinity field on clone+bestow power You'd better believe I'd do it.
sijigs 09-10-07, 08:27 PM	I don't not think no double-entendres don't not work that way. Hahaha. Good spotting.
Varl 09-10-07, 08:34 PM	27 years, really? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think 2e didn't exist in 1980... :eek: Ooops. That shoulda been 1e. 27 years for both 1e & 2e.
CrimsonDeath 09-10-07, 10:16 PM	Well, that part is correct to be sure. And to be fair to AntiDjinn and the rest of you, I probably shouldn't have posted the original question here. Why? My system is a hybrid between 2e and 3.5, so this is probably why we're not seeing eye to eye on a lot of things. I believe the reason "we're not seeing eye to eye" is because you didn't explain that you were developing an entire system. From what you said, it appeared that you simply wanted to take 3.5 psionics as-is and add a per-round upkeep cost. I'm sure there are plenty of people around who wouldn't mind seeing a variant system. We've seen plenty of recharge-based and per-encounter systems, so this might be an interesting look in the opposite direction.
AntiDjinn 09-11-07, 01:47 AM	Try thinking this way instead: Imagine if Inertial Armor came with a maintenance cost of 1 PSP per hour, or even 1 PSP per hour per level. So I might have 1 power active that I pay for every round, another that is every minute, and another that is every hour? That isn't sounding very simple or streamlined, if the cost interval won't be unified. It does sound very 2E. As 3.5 stands the principle rule by which balance is achieved is the manifester cap: You can't spend more points manifesting a power than your manifester level. Whether an 11th level manifester spends 11 points to manifest a 6th level power at base, or to manifest a 3rd level power with augmentations and metapsionics, he is producing two roughly equivalent effects. If cost of a power becomes cost to manifest plus cost to maintain (in effect, points spent on a power becomes an open-ended total) then DM is going to need some new way of determining what is a reasonable number of encounters per day. It probably won't be the standard 4 to 5 per day and current point totals may not last a day when your Mind Blank could bleed you dry to keep it up all day (while costing the wizard no more than a fire and forget casting) or you may have to manifest it multiple times in one day because you stopped paying maint. Is 11 points spent on one power manifestation going to be equivalent in effect to spending 5 points to manifest a different power, followed by 6 points spent on maint? Also as 3.5 stands your character is maintaining his power effects even if you are not asked to check off boxes every round. For example, Telekinetic Maneuver: The character spends a standard action to manifest (resource), then grapples and pins an opponent. Round to round he is concentrating, spending actions, and risking attacks of opportunity (risk, another cost). He also has to limit his movement so that he maintains line of effect to his target (a tactical cost, as there may be better places to be). He is probably putting up a heroic mental struggle, but there is no need for another layer of mechanics to be put on the player to simulate this. Anyway, do you seriously want to completely rebuild a system from the ground up on the eve of 4.0? The next gen of psionics may be exactly what you are looking for.
munin 09-11-07, 09:46 AM	You may want to look at GURPS Magic (a non-D&D system) which uses a maintenance mechanic. Each spell has an energy cost to cast, and typically half that to maintain (but full cost for some spells). Spending maintenance energy is a free action. Energy replenishes itself at a rate measured in minutes (typically 10 minutes to 3 hours for full replenishment), so it's really a per-encounter system. Different spells have different maintenance durations, from 1 "round" (GURPS uses 1-second rounds) to 1 hour or more. It's going to be tricky to balance maintenance costs in d20 psionics because their durations currently scale with manifester level. Assuming you gave each power a maintenance duration equal to the amount of time its duration is measured in (e.g. 1 hour maintenance time for inertial armor), then a 1st-level psion wouldn't need any more power points than usual, but a 20th-level psion would need about 10-11 times as many power points to get the same durations (assuming half-cost to maintain). If inertial armor costs 1 PSP per hour per level (or in general, 1 PSP per RAW-duration), then I think it's just "manifest the power as usual, but at the end of the duration you can spend again to keep it going rather then remanifest". That is a non-insignificant difference from the normal mechanic, since you don't have to give the targets additional saves, etc. (if you did allow additional saves, etc., then you might as well just make them remanifest). That would be fine and wouldn't require playing with power point amounts. I think the advantage of being able to renew the duration rather than remanifesting is probably worth a feat (definitely if maintenance is half-cost). At 1 PSP per RAW-duration, you wouldn't have to renew too often in combat, so making it require an expenditure of psionic focus might be okay (and an occasional "interesting choice"). Or you could make it a skill trick instead of a feat, requiring a Concentration check to renew, but then it could only be used once per encounter (per skill trick rules).
Varl 09-11-07, 11:37 AM	So I might have 1 power active that I pay for every round, another that is every minute, and another that is every hour? That isn't sounding very simple or streamlined, if the cost interval won't be unified. It does sound very 2E. That's exactly how it would be. Don't forget; my new system is indeed from the ground up, but it also is going to be aimed for 2nd edition, which if you remember your 2e, maintenance has been there since Day 1 (p.14 CPHB), so it's not like I'm completely reinventing the wheel here. What I'm attempting to do is take what I feel are the best improvements 3.5 gave psionics and merge them with the "feel" of 2nd edition that I like. It's really as simple as that. I really like how 3 and 3.5 streamlined psionic powers into level groups, instead of the chaotic mishmash 2e had them grouped under, but at the same time, I really like maintenance instead of duration because it takes psionics further away from the "feel" of spells, which I think d20 psionic power stat blocks really feel spell-like to me. In fact, they feel so spell-like, they even take spells and attempt to directly turn them into psionics (and this is done many times in d20 psionics books): Charm, Psionic Telepathy (Charm) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Telepath 1 Display: Mental Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Will negates Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 1 As the charm person spell, except as noted here. I mean, come on. Psionics should be something more than just arcane spell duplicates. This is one of the main reasons for my desire to create a system for psionics I can stomach that's different from magic in both form and function. Both 2e and 3.x are close, but for me, they fail in certain areas. And I'm also not opposed to the idea of a different way of doing things is what defines why psionics are the way they are. That to me is a very important feature of any psionics system I end up using in my game, particularly if it segregates itself from magic in any way. If cost of a power becomes cost to manifest plus cost to maintain (in effect, points spent on a power becomes an open-ended total) then DM is going to need some new way of determining what is a reasonable number of encounters per day. What? A reasonable number of encounters per day? What's that? Are you talking scripting encounters and adventures to match what the psionicist has available to him each day? :eek: It probably won't be the standard 4 to 5 per day You lost me again. Who set the standard to 4-5 per day, and more importantly, why? and current point totals may not last a day when your Mind Blank could bleed you dry to keep it up all day (while costing the wizard no more than a fire and forget casting) or you may have to manifest it multiple times in one day because you stopped paying maint. Yes. I do think they should have to manifest a power multiple times in one day, and not manifest it once and forget about it, knowing it'll last the whole day through without having to spend another point on it. Isn't that the point of duration in the first place? I mean, sure you can cancel it at any time, but you can do that with maintained powers as well. In the end, at the heart of the matter, whether you spend PSPs on a power and cancel it before you run out (or when the encounter ends), or you manifest a power with X duration and you cancel it before its duration elapses (or when the encounter ends), it's the same thing. Is 11 points spent on one power manifestation going to be equivalent in effect to spending 5 points to manifest a different power, followed by 6 points spent on maint? Now that's a good question! If I knew the answer to that one, I'd be much closer to the system I want. But, as above, if Power A has a duration of 2 rounds and costs you 11 PSPs, while Power B costs 5 to manifest the first round and 6 to maintain for one round, again, it's the same thing. They both last 2 rounds and cost 11. ;) I know what you're thinking: if they're both the same thing, why remove duration, right? Again, it's to help get away from the d20 "magical" feel of psionics. They're not magic. Anyway, do you seriously want to completely rebuild a system from the ground up on the eve of 4.0? The next gen of psionics may be exactly what you are looking for. I do. I've been working on this for a while now, and it's close to where I want it to be. I'll check out 4.0 psionics and see what they have to offer too. All my work may have been in vain, but I highly doubt they'll release a "HS! That's the perfect system I want!" system. We'll see. :)
Bacris 09-11-07, 11:59 AM	I dunno, man, it just seems like you're making the DM and psion accountants, rather than gamers. "Ok, 1 round has passed" "Ok, I pay maintenance on x" "Ok, another round has passed" "Ok, that's one minute, so I pay maintenance on x and on y" That's pretty tedious to me...
CrimsonDeath 09-11-07, 12:10 PM	What? A reasonable number of encounters per day? What's that? Are you talking scripting encounters and adventures to match what the psionicist has available to him each day? :eek: Well, D&D is a game, and games tend to be fair. Even a survival-horror game theoretically gives you enough resources to survive, if you budget your resources wisely and perhaps with a little luck. You lost me again. Who set the standard to 4-5 per day, and more importantly, why? Wizards of the Coast, because that's the principle they used to balance the CR system in the first place. (Don't tell me you're planning to revamp the CR system, too...) I do. I've been working on this for a while now, and it's close to where I want it to be. I'll check out 4.0 psionics and see what they have to offer too. All my work may have been in vain, but I highly doubt they'll release a "HS! That's the perfect system I want!" system. We'll see. :) Well, if you want to go ahead and post what you've got, there are probably some people who wouldn't mind offering suggestions.
Varl 09-11-07, 02:50 PM	Well, D&D is a game, and games tend to be fair. Even a survival-horror game theoretically gives you enough resources to survive, if you budget your resources wisely and perhaps with a little luck. Fairness is one thing; what the psionicist chooses to do with what he has available to him is his business, not mine. I'm merely the pinsetter in his game of bowling, and my job isn't to set up the pins so every shot he makes is easy, impossible, or somewhere in between. Wizards of the Coast, because that's the principle they used to balance the CR system in the first place. (Don't tell me you're planning to revamp the CR system, too...) Revamp? No. I don't use CR. Years of experience is my guide. Well, if you want to go ahead and post what you've got, there are probably some people who wouldn't mind offering suggestions. It's not ready yet.
InkBlot 09-11-07, 03:05 PM	Varl, the only problem I see with maintenance is that it's easy to step around. If a player doesn't want to have to worry about figuring out how much he's spending on maintaining a power, then he's going to just decide ahead of time how long he's going to maintain the power for and mark off that many power points when he manifests it. E.g., Bob is playing a psion. Bob just got home from college an hour ago and is a bit burnt out mentally. When his psion manifests inertial armor, Bob marks off 1 power point. He doesn't want to forget about maintenance, so he just marks off 8 hours worth of power points then and there. This is something to watch out for. It's why, I suspect, that they did away with maintenance costs after 2e. If people would rather take the above shortcut, then it's functionally the same to make longer-duration powers cost more power points. Good luck with your new system.
CrimsonDeath 09-11-07, 03:27 PM	Fairness is one thing; what the psionicist chooses to do with what he has available to him is his business, not mine. I'm merely the pinsetter in his game of bowling, and my job isn't to set up the pins so every shot he makes is easy, impossible, or somewhere in between. But it is your responsibility to design the system such that the resources available to a psionicist leave him capable of making beneficial choices. If all you give him is a hammer and nails, you shouldn't be surprised that he can't weld. Revamp? No. I don't use CR. Years of experience is my guide. But other people do use CR. If you suspect anyone else in the world might want to use your system, you may want to balance it so that it matches up with encounters and adventures prepared with the CR system in mind. It's not ready yet. I wasn't suggesting that it might be ready to use yet. I was simply saying that you might be able to get some help getting it ready for use. If you don't want any help, that's fine.
Varl 09-11-07, 07:19 PM	Varl, the only problem I see with maintenance is that it's easy to step around. If a player doesn't want to have to worry about figuring out how much he's spending on maintaining a power, then he's going to just decide ahead of time how long he's going to maintain the power for and mark off that many power points when he manifests it. Cool. If that's how the player wants to spend his PSPs, I'm okay with that. It's entirely his choice. The price he pays for using PSPs in advance like that is the loss of any PSPs he's placed into a power should he later decide to end it early for some reason or if it is brought down somehow by an outside party. Good luck with your new system. Thank you!
Scion of Coldshard 09-12-07, 12:11 PM	I've said it before but I would really like to see an alternate version of psionics based on skills and feats. As such, one could set a skill check at a certain DC with a modifier for increasing base duration, plus an extra check to continue the power that got harder with each iteration of the base duration. That would mean you could have a stronger effect with a shorter duration so it needed to be checked on more often or a weaker effect with a longer duration so that it would need to be checked less often. That would get around the whole needing a pp pile into the lower atmosphere just to do reasonable things ;)
Tempest Stormwind 09-12-07, 12:40 PM	I've said it before but I would really like to see an alternate version of psionics based on skills and feats. As such, one could set a skill check at a certain DC with a modifier for increasing base duration, plus an extra check to continue the power that got harder with each iteration of the base duration. That would mean you could have a stronger effect with a shorter duration so it needed to be checked on more often or a weaker effect with a longer duration so that it would need to be checked less often. That would get around the whole needing a pp pile into the lower atmosphere just to do reasonable things ;) Ever seen Star Wars: Saga Edition? All it needs is a duration ruling, since Force powers are either instantaneous or "maintained," which is Saga's equivalent of concentration (if an effect has a duration, it's usually "until the end of your turn" or "until the end of your opponent's turn"; the only exceptions are Sever Force (lasts for hours or days) and the augmented form of Dark Rage (end of encounter).) A simple example of that ruling, added to pertinent powers, would be "If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, you get [simple duration ruling]. You can choose to trigger a lower DC than your check would otherwise indicate." This means that if you rolled a 26, you could choose to get the DC 25 effect or the extended DC 20 effect.
Scion of Coldshard 09-12-07, 01:26 PM	Ever seen Star Wars: Saga Edition? Not much of it, but I have heard interesting things. I might have to look it over and read the part you are talking about. I have been playing a bit of L5R lately and while the system is very crude overall (as compared to d&d) it has a pretty interesting spell casting system. It has durations (which can be improved through 'raises' to make it harder to pull off) and 3 levels of concentration similar to d&d's levels of concentration. Getting spell slots back is a fairly simple process as well.
Bacris 09-12-07, 02:02 PM	Didn't Green Ronin do a psionics as skills & feats system? I've heard mixed about it, but mostly positive.
Slagger the Chuul 09-12-07, 07:40 PM	I would suggest that pinching some ideas from the old 3.0 power point reserve (used to maintain certain feats) might be the way to go. Essentially, you have certain psionic effects that you can maintain constantly, as long as you have a certain number of power points up your sleeve. Unlike the 3.0 reserves, you would need to cover the total cost of all maintained powers, but you can even include augmentation in this mix, increasing the number of power points required to maintain the power. These are typically effects like inertial armour and whatnot; they can be dispelled, but you can remanifest them, provided that you have enough power points in reserve. In addition to the maintained powers, you have a number of powers that actually drain your power points for the day (typically instantaneous or very short duration effects, like crystal shard). They essentially remain standard 3.5 powers. This variant would essentially consist of allocating the appropriate 3.5 powers as maintained powers (rather than normally manifested powers), and determining appropriate costs to maintain and augment them. The benefit is to effectively have maintenance of appropriate powers without the need to make continual power point reductions. It's also relatively easy to implement, since a large selection of powers require no adjustment at all. The tricky part is determining the appropriate power point costs for the maintained powers, and the appropriate adjustment to the normal total of power points available to a psionic character.
Varl 09-13-07, 12:34 AM	I would suggest that pinching some ideas from the old 3.0 power point reserve (used to maintain certain feats) might be the way to go. I'll look into this. Thanks. The benefit is to effectively have maintenance of appropriate powers without the need to make continual power point reductions. It's also relatively easy to implement, since a large selection of powers require no adjustment at all. The tricky part is determining the appropriate power point costs for the maintained powers, and the appropriate adjustment to the normal total of power points available to a psionic character. You've hit on one of the main issues I still have to address. PSP maintenance costs vs. a character's PSP totals, as well as overall PSP usage. And seeing how I've decided I really like 3.x's placement of psionic powers in their own level groups from 1-9, one of my hardest tasks yet to do is to determine a good consistent ratio of powers used to PSPs spent across all 9 levels. I think I've just had an epiphany on exactly how I want my system to perform. I still want the powers to be constrained by levels (1-9) like they are in 3.x, but I don't want rigid, definitive numbers of powers usable per day like how mage spells are. For example, in theory, if a 3rd level psionicist can somehow squeeze out 10 individual power manifestations in one day because his PSP total is sufficient to allow him to do that, including paying for everything he'd have to pay for, great. If, however, he finds himself in a scenario where he really needs to maintain one or two powers for something over an extended period of time, and that ends up completely depleting his PSP pool, I'm okay with that too. That's diversity for the psionicist. Ultimately, what I'm looking to create is an entirely openended system where the psionicist has no barriers or artificial restrictions on the number of powers he can manifest over the course of one day. That I feel would truly separate the psionicist from the mage in form and function. The trick is going to be determining how unbalancing it is for a psionicist (in theory) to be able to potentially manifest lots of power over the course of a day. And that's where I could use people's help. How do you go about determining a "balanced" power usage vs. PSP pool ratio? I set it up so that the psionicists can manifest 20+ powers per day, and people are going to have an aneurysm. Or are they? If I set it to where the psionicists can only manifest a couple powers per day on average, no one's going to want to play one because of how weak they are. How the heck do you find some semblence of a sweet spot between 'I'm a manifesting machine' from 'Those two powers were fun. I pull my sword.' ;) Suggestions and ideas are welcome.
Slagger the Chuul 09-13-07, 02:28 AM	If you're absolutely set on continually spending power points for powers that are being maintained, you'll probably need to work out how much they'll cost on average (the average amount of time you're likely to use each manifestation). You can then use the average time and average power point cost to compare it to a standard 3.5 power. Once you know how much they roughly cost, you can tell how often they could potentially be used in one day. For example, a power that you're only going to maintain for 5 rounds of combat at 1 PP/round is roughly equivalent to a 1 round/level power that costs 5 PP (most combats are finished in about 5 rounds, so the extra few rounds of a standard power make little difference in most cases). That's a relatively simple example, but hopefully you get the idea.
CrimsonDeath 09-13-07, 04:11 AM	Do you intend to implement this system with a per-day allotment of PP, or a continual recharge?
Varl 09-13-07, 11:53 AM	If you're absolutely set on continually spending power points for powers that are being maintained, you'll probably need to work out how much they'll cost on average (the average amount of time you're likely to use each manifestation). You can then use the average time and average power point cost to compare it to a standard 3.5 power. Once you know how much they roughly cost, you can tell how often they could potentially be used in one day. That's a good frame of reference to start from. Thanks. For example, a power that you're only going to maintain for 5 rounds of combat at 1 PP/round is roughly equivalent to a 1 round/level power that costs 5 PP (most combats are finished in about 5 rounds, so the extra few rounds of a standard power make little difference in most cases). That's a relatively simple example, but hopefully you get the idea. I do. Thanks again. One quick question regarding duration: if a power's defined duration is set to, say 1 hour per level, can a psionicist cancel it at any time before the 1 hour lapses, or does it have to run its full duration before it can end? Timed durations over on the Hypertext SRD page seems to imply the latter, and I quote: Timed Durations Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the psionic energy sustaining the effect fades, and the power ends. If a power’s duration is variable it is rolled secretly. Emphasis mine. This is going to be a key determining factor in whether I end up going with maintenance or not. I want psionicists to be able to freely cancel any power at any time, unless specifically prevented from doing so. That'd be the benefit of using maintenance over duration, if duration is fixed as it appears to be. Do you intend to implement this system with a per-day allotment of PP, or a continual recharge? I'm leaning more towards a slow continual recharge using meditation, rest, etc. from the 2e CPHB, as yet another differentiation from mages.
Bacris 09-13-07, 01:10 PM	Powers with a duration that contain (D) can be dismissed - otherwise, it runs the whole duration.