Dweomer of Transference nerf - HELP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dweomer of Transference nerf - HELP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sijigs
07-25-07, 02:10 AM Guys, my fellow players think that only spells that *you* cast are the ones that can be transferred. No one elses...

eg.. if a mage casts it on someone only his spells can be converted.

I'm using a wand to 'top' up my PPs..

What do you all think??
CrimsonDeath
07-25-07, 02:15 AM I forgot... What book is that in?
InkBlot
07-25-07, 02:23 AM It's in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the SRD.

Dweomer of Transference
Evocation
Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One willing psionic creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

With this spell, you form a radiating corona around the head of a psionic ally, then convert some of your spells into psionic power points. When you finish casting dweomer of transference, a red-orange glow surrounds the psionic creature’s head. For the duration of the spell, any spells cast at the subject don’t have their usual effect, instead converting themselves harmlessly into psionic energy that the subject can use as energy for psionic powers. You can cast any spell you like at the subject, even area spells, effect spells, and spells for whom the subject would ordinarily not be a legitimate target. The spells don’t do anything other than provide the subject with power points, but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell.

For each spell you cast into the dweomer of transference, the psionic creature gets temporary power points, according to the following table. The transference isn’t perfectly efficient. The temporary power points acquired through a dweomer of transference dissipate after 1 hour if they haven’t already been spent.
Spell Power Points
Level Acquired
0 0
1st 1
2nd 2
3rd 4
4th 6
5th 8
6th 10
7th 12
8th 14
9th 16

I'm not sure. I would say only spells cast by the caster of the dwoemer are converted into power points. Otherwise this would be one of the most powerful spells ever. If it worked on any spell, then this one fourth level spell would negate any targeted spell of any level. It would be better than spell turning or reddopsi.
Tempest Stormwind
07-25-07, 02:24 AM Considering that every sentence *except* the critical one specifies the caster, and that the alternative is to render you immune to all spells (a la AMF but with none of the personal drawbacks), I'd say it's a fair nerf.
sijigs
07-25-07, 02:30 AM Considering that every sentence *except* the critical one specifies the caster, and that the alternative is to render you immune to all spells (a la AMF but with none of the personal drawbacks), I'd say it's a fair nerf.

Well crap.. if you think it's fair and I fully respect the TS...

Then I will find another way to find the extra PPs.

What about scrolls that I cast from?
InkBlot
07-25-07, 02:38 AM The way it works, as I read it, is thus;
If Jim casts dweomer of transference on Bob, then only spells Jim casts on Bob are turned into power points. If Bob casts a spell on himself with a scroll and Use Magic Device, then the spell is not turned into power points. If an evil lich queen casts a spell on Bob, then the spell is not turned into power points.
sijigs
07-25-07, 06:45 AM @Inkblot: Fair enough.

Jeeez.. lots of guys in the forums (maybe discounting you guys) have mis-read this spell time and again.

You're all right that it seems powerful at first read. Even it rang alarm bells for me and actually volunteered to nerf it myself.

My version was: anything that *I* cast (whatever source) is the only thing that got converted. This way I can only do one spell per round and it's not so overpowered.

Oh well.. there are other ways to gain extra PP
sijigs
07-25-07, 06:53 AM Sorry for the double post.

I just had another questioning light bulb but I re-read Inkblot's post and he covered his bases well. Big ups!

So either you're a full caster who's willing to give up some of your spells or you have to be a cerebremancer or theurge. Hmmm... Nerf City.. here I come.

Speaking of which:

Cerebremancer + Ring of Wizardry II/III + Extend Feat/Metamagic Rod = lots of goodness :D
Caterpillar
07-25-07, 10:25 AM How about any spells of 3rd or 4th level cast by anyone get absorbed, that way it's about as protective as a minor globe of invulnerability and it doesn't overpower the spell.
sijigs
07-25-07, 10:57 PM How about any spells of 3rd or 4th level cast by anyone get absorbed, that way it's about as protective as a minor globe of invulnerability and it doesn't overpower the spell.

Good option but I don't want to bastardize the spell too much.

It's unlikely I'll sacrifice any 5th (or higher) level spells anytime soon anyway.
forsaken1111
07-26-07, 02:29 AM I thought you were considered the caster for spell trigger and spell completion items.
CrimsonDeath
07-26-07, 03:26 AM I thought you were considered the caster for spell trigger and spell completion items.
You are.
forsaken1111
07-26-07, 03:29 AM You are.

So why wouldn't a spell you cast from a wand/scroll be considered originating from you and therefor be transformed into power points?
sijigs
07-26-07, 07:50 PM So why wouldn't a spell you cast from a wand/scroll be considered originating from you and therefor be transformed into power points?

That's what the boys are beating me up on. I use a Wand of Restore (which costs 26k, I think!) to amp myself up.

I will present my case to my DM on Monday night anyway and hope he's okay with it.
forsaken1111
07-26-07, 08:42 PM That's what the boys are beating me up on. I use a Wand of Restore (which costs 26k, I think!) to amp myself up.

I will present my case to my DM on Monday night anyway and hope he's okay with it.

For spell trigger/spell completion items like wands and scrolls you ARE the caster therefor it should count as something you have cast. For example if you cast a spell from a scroll against someone and it was reflected, the spell wouldn't hit the scroll it would hit you as YOU are the caster.
sijigs
07-26-07, 09:55 PM Quoted from the spell:
but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell.

I think this is the clincher.
CrimsonDeath
07-27-07, 03:21 AM I think that's talking about, if you want to feed Bull's Strength into the Dweomer, you have to touch your psionic buddy. If you want to feed him a Lesser Restoration, it takes three rounds. If you want to feed him a Raise Dead, you have to use a diamond. Using a spell out of a wand or scroll doesn't require components because they were consumed to create the item; that's "normal" for a spell cast from an item.
SlanderPanic
07-27-07, 12:36 PM I'm thinking a greater dweomer of transference should be made, which allows the recipient to use an immediate action to absorb any single incoming spell and convert it to power points. He automatically converts spells from the caster of the dweomer as normal.

I'll work on it after lunch.
InkBlot
07-27-07, 04:01 PM I think I would make greater dweomer of transference give spell resistance, but not power resistance, and any spell that fails to pierce your SR gets converted to power points. Spells from the original caster of the dweomer get converted regardless.
SlanderPanic
07-27-07, 04:23 PM I like that idea a lot better, actually. Good call, InkBlot.
I'll probably post up a version when I get home tonight.
CrimsonDeath
07-27-07, 05:19 PM I think I would make greater dweomer of transference give spell resistance, but not power resistance, and any spell that fails to pierce your SR gets converted to power points. Spells from the original caster of the dweomer get converted regardless.
Would it apply against all spells, or only spells that normally target a single creature? If it's all spells, then the Cerebremancer just picked up a new trick-- drop a Greater Dweomer of Transference, and then throw Fireballs at yourself (while you happen to be standing pretty close to some enemies). You do damage and get some PP recharge at the same time. Either that, or he simply eats any spell that doesn't beat his SR, and now you're into Iron Heart Surge territory.
InkBlot
07-27-07, 06:07 PM If I knew, I would have written it out as a full spell. The safer way would be to restrict it to spells targeted on the recipient of the dwoemer of transference (the "DOTer"), and only if the DOTer was the only target.

I could see it being done other ways, and those other ways have potential to be very fun. Whether or not they would lead to trouble is something that is difficult to see without at least writing out the spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sijigs 07-25-07, 02:10 AM	Guys, my fellow players think that only spells that you cast are the ones that can be transferred. No one elses... eg.. if a mage casts it on someone only his spells can be converted. I'm using a wand to 'top' up my PPs.. What do you all think??
CrimsonDeath 07-25-07, 02:15 AM	I forgot... What book is that in?
InkBlot 07-25-07, 02:23 AM	It's in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and the SRD. Dweomer of Transference Evocation Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One willing psionic creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) With this spell, you form a radiating corona around the head of a psionic ally, then convert some of your spells into psionic power points. When you finish casting dweomer of transference, a red-orange glow surrounds the psionic creature’s head. For the duration of the spell, any spells cast at the subject don’t have their usual effect, instead converting themselves harmlessly into psionic energy that the subject can use as energy for psionic powers. You can cast any spell you like at the subject, even area spells, effect spells, and spells for whom the subject would ordinarily not be a legitimate target. The spells don’t do anything other than provide the subject with power points, but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell. For each spell you cast into the dweomer of transference, the psionic creature gets temporary power points, according to the following table. The transference isn’t perfectly efficient. The temporary power points acquired through a dweomer of transference dissipate after 1 hour if they haven’t already been spent. Spell Power Points Level Acquired 0 0 1st 1 2nd 2 3rd 4 4th 6 5th 8 6th 10 7th 12 8th 14 9th 16 I'm not sure. I would say only spells cast by the caster of the dwoemer are converted into power points. Otherwise this would be one of the most powerful spells ever. If it worked on any spell, then this one fourth level spell would negate any targeted spell of any level. It would be better than spell turning or reddopsi.
Tempest Stormwind 07-25-07, 02:24 AM	Considering that every sentence except the critical one specifies the caster, and that the alternative is to render you immune to all spells (a la AMF but with none of the personal drawbacks), I'd say it's a fair nerf.
sijigs 07-25-07, 02:30 AM	Considering that every sentence except the critical one specifies the caster, and that the alternative is to render you immune to all spells (a la AMF but with none of the personal drawbacks), I'd say it's a fair nerf. Well crap.. if you think it's fair and I fully respect the TS... Then I will find another way to find the extra PPs. What about scrolls that I cast from?
InkBlot 07-25-07, 02:38 AM	The way it works, as I read it, is thus; If Jim casts dweomer of transference on Bob, then only spells Jim casts on Bob are turned into power points. If Bob casts a spell on himself with a scroll and Use Magic Device, then the spell is not turned into power points. If an evil lich queen casts a spell on Bob, then the spell is not turned into power points.
sijigs 07-25-07, 06:45 AM	@Inkblot: Fair enough. Jeeez.. lots of guys in the forums (maybe discounting you guys) have mis-read this spell time and again. You're all right that it seems powerful at first read. Even it rang alarm bells for me and actually volunteered to nerf it myself. My version was: anything that I cast (whatever source) is the only thing that got converted. This way I can only do one spell per round and it's not so overpowered. Oh well.. there are other ways to gain extra PP
sijigs 07-25-07, 06:53 AM	Sorry for the double post. I just had another questioning light bulb but I re-read Inkblot's post and he covered his bases well. Big ups! So either you're a full caster who's willing to give up some of your spells or you have to be a cerebremancer or theurge. Hmmm... Nerf City.. here I come. Speaking of which: Cerebremancer + Ring of Wizardry II/III + Extend Feat/Metamagic Rod = lots of goodness :D
Caterpillar 07-25-07, 10:25 AM	How about any spells of 3rd or 4th level cast by anyone get absorbed, that way it's about as protective as a minor globe of invulnerability and it doesn't overpower the spell.
sijigs 07-25-07, 10:57 PM	How about any spells of 3rd or 4th level cast by anyone get absorbed, that way it's about as protective as a minor globe of invulnerability and it doesn't overpower the spell. Good option but I don't want to bastardize the spell too much. It's unlikely I'll sacrifice any 5th (or higher) level spells anytime soon anyway.
forsaken1111 07-26-07, 02:29 AM	I thought you were considered the caster for spell trigger and spell completion items.
CrimsonDeath 07-26-07, 03:26 AM	I thought you were considered the caster for spell trigger and spell completion items. You are.
forsaken1111 07-26-07, 03:29 AM	You are. So why wouldn't a spell you cast from a wand/scroll be considered originating from you and therefor be transformed into power points?
sijigs 07-26-07, 07:50 PM	So why wouldn't a spell you cast from a wand/scroll be considered originating from you and therefor be transformed into power points? That's what the boys are beating me up on. I use a Wand of Restore (which costs 26k, I think!) to amp myself up. I will present my case to my DM on Monday night anyway and hope he's okay with it.
forsaken1111 07-26-07, 08:42 PM	That's what the boys are beating me up on. I use a Wand of Restore (which costs 26k, I think!) to amp myself up. I will present my case to my DM on Monday night anyway and hope he's okay with it. For spell trigger/spell completion items like wands and scrolls you ARE the caster therefor it should count as something you have cast. For example if you cast a spell from a scroll against someone and it was reflected, the spell wouldn't hit the scroll it would hit you as YOU are the caster.
sijigs 07-26-07, 09:55 PM	Quoted from the spell: but you must still cast them normally, obeying the component and range requirements listed in the description of each spell. I think this is the clincher.
CrimsonDeath 07-27-07, 03:21 AM	I think that's talking about, if you want to feed Bull's Strength into the Dweomer, you have to touch your psionic buddy. If you want to feed him a Lesser Restoration, it takes three rounds. If you want to feed him a Raise Dead, you have to use a diamond. Using a spell out of a wand or scroll doesn't require components because they were consumed to create the item; that's "normal" for a spell cast from an item.
SlanderPanic 07-27-07, 12:36 PM	I'm thinking a greater dweomer of transference should be made, which allows the recipient to use an immediate action to absorb any single incoming spell and convert it to power points. He automatically converts spells from the caster of the dweomer as normal. I'll work on it after lunch.
InkBlot 07-27-07, 04:01 PM	I think I would make greater dweomer of transference give spell resistance, but not power resistance, and any spell that fails to pierce your SR gets converted to power points. Spells from the original caster of the dweomer get converted regardless.
SlanderPanic 07-27-07, 04:23 PM	I like that idea a lot better, actually. Good call, InkBlot. I'll probably post up a version when I get home tonight.
CrimsonDeath 07-27-07, 05:19 PM	I think I would make greater dweomer of transference give spell resistance, but not power resistance, and any spell that fails to pierce your SR gets converted to power points. Spells from the original caster of the dweomer get converted regardless. Would it apply against all spells, or only spells that normally target a single creature? If it's all spells, then the Cerebremancer just picked up a new trick-- drop a Greater Dweomer of Transference, and then throw Fireballs at yourself (while you happen to be standing pretty close to some enemies). You do damage and get some PP recharge at the same time. Either that, or he simply eats any spell that doesn't beat his SR, and now you're into Iron Heart Surge territory.
InkBlot 07-27-07, 06:07 PM	If I knew, I would have written it out as a full spell. The safer way would be to restrict it to spells targeted on the recipient of the dwoemer of transference (the "DOTer"), and only if the DOTer was the only target. I could see it being done other ways, and those other ways have potential to be very fun. Whether or not they would lead to trouble is something that is difficult to see without at least writing out the spell.