Eberron Kalashtar Soulknife/Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron Kalashtar Soulknife/Monk [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
no-sides-sameeth
02-02-08, 01:24 PM Ok, for an upcoming campaign in Eberron, I will be playing a Kalashtar Soulknife. The character will be a duelist, ie specializing in fighting single humanoids. We play a very strict RAW campaign. If you can't justify a build under the most stringent interpretatoins of the rules, it is invalid; any WotC 3.5 published material, web or print, is valid evidence of a legal build.

1) Can I use the Hidden Talent Class Feature (Alternate Soulknife Class Feature from The Mind's Eye, Expanded Classes Part I) to fulfill the prerequisite for the Tashalatora Feat (SoS)? For those who don't know, Tashalatora allows stacking of Monk levels with a Psionic Class, but it requires the character to manifest 1st level powers. Soulknife is not a manifestor, but as I understand it, but, with the Hidden Talent Class Feature, will my character will fulfill the requirement.

2) If I took Whirling Steel Strike (ECS) (allows flurry with longsword), could I flurry with my Mind Blade, as long as it manifests as a longsword? WSS requires Proficiency and Weapon Focus with longsword. Does Proficiency and Weapon Focus with Mind Blade substitute? Update: I found the Dragonshards Article Blades Of the Quori. This really provides a simple solution. Thanks.

3) Finally, can I take and stack them with the Kalashtar Soulknife Racial Substitution levels? Can I take both the feats in place of Psychic Strike and Hidden Talent in place of Wild Talent and take the Racial Substitution level?

Obviously, I believe the answer to all three to be yes, or I would not be contemplating the build; however, I am looking for things I may have overlooked. In particular, I think 1 and 2 are the most problematic.
InkBlot
02-02-08, 02:20 PM 1) Can I use the Hidden Talent Class Feature (Alternate Soulknife Class Feature from The Mind's Eye, Expanded Classes Part I) to fulfill the prerequisite for the Tashalatora Feat (SoS)? For those who don't know, Tashalatora allows stacking of Monk levels with a Psionic Class, but it requires the character to manifest 1st level powers. Soulknife is not a manifestor, but as I understand it, but, with the Hidden Talent Class Feature, will my character will fulfill the requirement.

What is the exact wording of the prerequisites for Tashalantora? I don't have Secrets Of Sarlona. The exact wording is important, because Hidden Talent does not give you a manifester level. It's very specific about that.

If the prerequisite is "able to manifest a 1st level power," then Hidden Talent will work just fine.

If the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," then you'll have to take Hidden Talent twice in order to qualify.

If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work.

edit: A psi-like ability may also be able to qualify. Do you have Complete Psionic? It clarifies how psi-likes can qualify for certain feats (it's basically a copy-paste find-replace from a similar section in Complete Arcane). Basically, psi-likes provide you a manifester level for feats that require "manifester level x," but don't count for feats that require "able to manifest x level powers."

Complete Psionic also has some love for the Soulknife, with nice Soulknife feats and a couple neat prestige classes (Illumine Soul for undead hunting, and Soulbow for archery).

There are also [Host] feats, which are specialized psionic feats for Kalashtar, Inspired, and anyone else playing host to a psionic entity. Most of these give a pair of psi-likes usable once-per-day. I don't know how many of these (if any) are reprints from an Eberron book.

edit#2: If you don't have Complete Psionic, then you may want to see what was so bad about it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984570) before running off and buying it. It's definitely a book where you need to be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.
no-sides-sameeth
02-02-08, 02:41 PM I am at work without books, but I am 99% sure it says "able to manifest 1st level powers". The Feat is meant to allow Monk/Psion or Monk/Wilder and Monk/PsyWarrior combos. If my memory is correct, I suppose the plural makes a difference, and that is just the sort of thing I will be caught on. This is what you get for playing D&D with lawyers and law students.
InkBlot
02-02-08, 03:04 PM Well, the Hidden Talent variant does allow you to take Hidden Talent twice.

Or you could take a single level of Psion or Ardent. Ardent is from ComPsi. A level of Ardent would give you a d6 hit die, a +2 to will saves, two powers known, as many power points as a Psion, two mantle abilities, and a customized power list for exactly what you want to do. Ardents are Wisdom based.

Each Mantle is a short power list and a granted ability, somewhat like a Domain. However, there is no Ardent Power List. An Ardent only has access to powers on her Mantles. For this reason, any two Ardents can be as different from each other as a Barbarian is from a Bard.

I really like the Freedom mantle. It increases your speed by +10 feet while psionically focused (stacks with speed of thought), and one of the 1st level Freedom powers is dimension hop (teleport 10 feet as a swift action).

Pretty much all the mantles' granted abilities give you a benefit equivalent to a pretty nice feat. For example, one gives you darkvision, one gives you +2 str/dex/con for a round if you expend focus, one gives you a +1 deflection bonus to AC while focused, one lets you expend focus to shunt some damage to an enemy, one gives you bonus power points as if your manifesting stat were 2 points higher, et cetera. And many mantles have Psychic-Warrior-esque powers which don't particularly benefit from augmentation or a high manifester level.

Also, the Ardent's max-power-level-known is based on Manifester level, not Class level. So a Soulknife 4/Ardent2 with Practiced Manifester can learn 3rd level powers.

Practiced Manifester is also in ComPsi, but it's just a bad find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster from CA.
Deekin
02-02-08, 04:56 PM What is the exact wording of the prerequisites for Tashalantora? I don't have Secrets Of Sarlona. The exact wording is important, because Hidden Talent does not give you a manifester level. It's very specific about that.

If the prerequisite is "able to manifest a 1st level power," then Hidden Talent will work just fine.

If the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," then you'll have to take Hidden Talent twice in order to qualify.

If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work.

edit: A psi-like ability may also be able to qualify. Do you have Complete Psionic? It clarifies how psi-likes can qualify for certain feats (it's basically a copy-paste find-replace from a similar section in Complete Arcane). Basically, psi-likes provide you a manifester level for feats that require "manifester level x," but don't count for feats that require "able to manifest x level powers."

Complete Psionic also has some love for the Soulknife, with nice Soulknife feats and a couple neat prestige classes (Illumine Soul for undead hunting, and Soulbow for archery).

There are also [Host] feats, which are specialized psionic feats for Kalashtar, Inspired, and anyone else playing host to a psionic entity. Most of these give a pair of psi-likes usable once-per-day. I don't know how many of these (if any) are reprints from an Eberron book.

edit#2: If you don't have Complete Psionic, then you may want to see what was so bad about it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984570) before running off and buying it. It's definitely a book where you need to be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.

The the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," but he doesn't have to take Hidden Talent Twice, because he is a Kalashtar, and they have Mindlink as a psi-like abilty.
InkBlot
02-02-08, 05:22 PM No, that won't work. According to Complete Psionic, psi-like abilities don't count as powers for prerequisites which say "able to manifest x level powers." And he's playing with rules lawyers (literally), so that matters.
The_Mess
02-02-08, 11:22 PM If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work.

Why not? You can't spend more pp on manifesting a power than your manifester level. If Hidden Talent doesn't give you a manifester level, then you couldn't manifest the power it lets you know.

Or am I missing something incredibly obvious again?
InkBlot
02-03-08, 02:10 AM Turn to page 67 of your Expanded Psionics Handbook. Hidden Talent states:

This is not a manifester level

That's why Hidden Talent doesn't let help qualify for things which require a manifester level.
CrimsonDeath
02-03-08, 01:34 PM If my memory is correct, I suppose the plural makes a difference, and that is just the sort of thing I will be caught on. This is what you get for playing D&D with lawyers and law students.
Ask your DM if a Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 4 (with at least 12 Charisma) qualifies for Mystic Theurge. Note that Mystic Theurge requires the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". The character I mentioned will only know one 2nd level Divine spell and one 2nd level Arcane spell, but will be able to cast each of them multiple times per day. Likewise for a Kalashtar with the Hidden Talent feat; he'll only know one 1st level power but will be able to manifest it multiple times per day.
no-sides-sameeth
02-03-08, 01:47 PM That is actually a really good point. I can't think of a time when this issue has come up before, so I don't have any in game precedent. My guess is we will go with an argument like this, "The prereq says powers, powers is plural, thus you must have powers, not power." This is precisely the sort of thing that gets argued. When it says "Able to manifest powers (Plural), that means you must be able to manifest more than one distinct power." We will likely go with the strictest possible interpretation.
CrimsonDeath
02-03-08, 06:14 PM I know, but I'm asking for a strict definition of the phrase "more than one power". More than one distinct power? More than one power per day? Both?
Belabras
02-04-08, 01:24 AM Outside of the Talashtora debate-

You should definitely check out the Blades of the Quori (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a) Dragonshard, for flavor and for the Flowing Blade feat that solves your whole flurry question neatly.

You should also check out Races of Eberron for the several Kalashtar Soulknife feats, as well as the Atavist PRC.
no-sides-sameeth
02-05-08, 05:44 PM Thank you, I saw the Blades of the Quori Dragonshard. It led me to strike question #2. The consensus among us is that the plural means you must manifest multiple discreet powers, not one power multiple times per day. I still believe that the intent of prerequisites that say that a character must be able to "cast x level spells" or "manifest x level powers" is that a single spell or power of x level is required; however, like I said in my OP, we are RAW literalists, so this ruling is unlikely to change. Thanks for the help.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
no-sides-sameeth 02-02-08, 01:24 PM	Ok, for an upcoming campaign in Eberron, I will be playing a Kalashtar Soulknife. The character will be a duelist, ie specializing in fighting single humanoids. We play a very strict RAW campaign. If you can't justify a build under the most stringent interpretatoins of the rules, it is invalid; any WotC 3.5 published material, web or print, is valid evidence of a legal build. 1) Can I use the Hidden Talent Class Feature (Alternate Soulknife Class Feature from The Mind's Eye, Expanded Classes Part I) to fulfill the prerequisite for the Tashalatora Feat (SoS)? For those who don't know, Tashalatora allows stacking of Monk levels with a Psionic Class, but it requires the character to manifest 1st level powers. Soulknife is not a manifestor, but as I understand it, but, with the Hidden Talent Class Feature, will my character will fulfill the requirement. 2) If I took Whirling Steel Strike (ECS) (allows flurry with longsword), could I flurry with my Mind Blade, as long as it manifests as a longsword? WSS requires Proficiency and Weapon Focus with longsword. Does Proficiency and Weapon Focus with Mind Blade substitute? Update: I found the Dragonshards Article Blades Of the Quori. This really provides a simple solution. Thanks. 3) Finally, can I take and stack them with the Kalashtar Soulknife Racial Substitution levels? Can I take both the feats in place of Psychic Strike and Hidden Talent in place of Wild Talent and take the Racial Substitution level? Obviously, I believe the answer to all three to be yes, or I would not be contemplating the build; however, I am looking for things I may have overlooked. In particular, I think 1 and 2 are the most problematic.
InkBlot 02-02-08, 02:20 PM	1) Can I use the Hidden Talent Class Feature (Alternate Soulknife Class Feature from The Mind's Eye, Expanded Classes Part I) to fulfill the prerequisite for the Tashalatora Feat (SoS)? For those who don't know, Tashalatora allows stacking of Monk levels with a Psionic Class, but it requires the character to manifest 1st level powers. Soulknife is not a manifestor, but as I understand it, but, with the Hidden Talent Class Feature, will my character will fulfill the requirement. What is the exact wording of the prerequisites for Tashalantora? I don't have Secrets Of Sarlona. The exact wording is important, because Hidden Talent does not give you a manifester level. It's very specific about that. If the prerequisite is "able to manifest a 1st level power," then Hidden Talent will work just fine. If the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," then you'll have to take Hidden Talent twice in order to qualify. If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work. edit: A psi-like ability may also be able to qualify. Do you have Complete Psionic? It clarifies how psi-likes can qualify for certain feats (it's basically a copy-paste find-replace from a similar section in Complete Arcane). Basically, psi-likes provide you a manifester level for feats that require "manifester level x," but don't count for feats that require "able to manifest x level powers." Complete Psionic also has some love for the Soulknife, with nice Soulknife feats and a couple neat prestige classes (Illumine Soul for undead hunting, and Soulbow for archery). There are also [Host] feats, which are specialized psionic feats for Kalashtar, Inspired, and anyone else playing host to a psionic entity. Most of these give a pair of psi-likes usable once-per-day. I don't know how many of these (if any) are reprints from an Eberron book. edit#2: If you don't have Complete Psionic, then you may want to see what was so bad about it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984570) before running off and buying it. It's definitely a book where you need to be able to sift the wheat from the chaff.
no-sides-sameeth 02-02-08, 02:41 PM	I am at work without books, but I am 99% sure it says "able to manifest 1st level powers". The Feat is meant to allow Monk/Psion or Monk/Wilder and Monk/PsyWarrior combos. If my memory is correct, I suppose the plural makes a difference, and that is just the sort of thing I will be caught on. This is what you get for playing D&D with lawyers and law students.
InkBlot 02-02-08, 03:04 PM	Well, the Hidden Talent variant does allow you to take Hidden Talent twice. Or you could take a single level of Psion or Ardent. Ardent is from ComPsi. A level of Ardent would give you a d6 hit die, a +2 to will saves, two powers known, as many power points as a Psion, two mantle abilities, and a customized power list for exactly what you want to do. Ardents are Wisdom based. Each Mantle is a short power list and a granted ability, somewhat like a Domain. However, there is no Ardent Power List. An Ardent only has access to powers on her Mantles. For this reason, any two Ardents can be as different from each other as a Barbarian is from a Bard. I really like the Freedom mantle. It increases your speed by +10 feet while psionically focused (stacks with speed of thought), and one of the 1st level Freedom powers is dimension hop (teleport 10 feet as a swift action). Pretty much all the mantles' granted abilities give you a benefit equivalent to a pretty nice feat. For example, one gives you darkvision, one gives you +2 str/dex/con for a round if you expend focus, one gives you a +1 deflection bonus to AC while focused, one lets you expend focus to shunt some damage to an enemy, one gives you bonus power points as if your manifesting stat were 2 points higher, et cetera. And many mantles have Psychic-Warrior-esque powers which don't particularly benefit from augmentation or a high manifester level. Also, the Ardent's max-power-level-known is based on Manifester level, not Class level. So a Soulknife 4/Ardent2 with Practiced Manifester can learn 3rd level powers. Practiced Manifester is also in ComPsi, but it's just a bad find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster from CA.
Deekin 02-02-08, 04:56 PM	What is the exact wording of the prerequisites for Tashalantora? I don't have Secrets Of Sarlona. The exact wording is important, because Hidden Talent does not give you a manifester level. It's very specific about that. If the prerequisite is "able to manifest a 1st level power," then Hidden Talent will work just fine. If the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," then you'll have to take Hidden Talent twice in order to qualify. If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work. edit: A psi-like ability may also be able to qualify. Do you have Complete Psionic? It clarifies how psi-likes can qualify for certain feats (it's basically a copy-paste find-replace from a similar section in Complete Arcane). Basically, psi-likes provide you a manifester level for feats that require "manifester level x," but don't count for feats that require "able to manifest x level powers." Complete Psionic also has some love for the Soulknife, with nice Soulknife feats and a couple neat prestige classes (Illumine Soul for undead hunting, and Soulbow for archery). There are also [Host] feats, which are specialized psionic feats for Kalashtar, Inspired, and anyone else playing host to a psionic entity. Most of these give a pair of psi-likes usable once-per-day. I don't know how many of these (if any) are reprints from an Eberron book. edit#2: If you don't have Complete Psionic, then you may want to see what was so bad about it (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984570) before running off and buying it. It's definitely a book where you need to be able to sift the wheat from the chaff. The the prereq is "able to manifest 1st level powers," but he doesn't have to take Hidden Talent Twice, because he is a Kalashtar, and they have Mindlink as a psi-like abilty.
InkBlot 02-02-08, 05:22 PM	No, that won't work. According to Complete Psionic, psi-like abilities don't count as powers for prerequisites which say "able to manifest x level powers." And he's playing with rules lawyers (literally), so that matters.
The_Mess 02-02-08, 11:22 PM	If the prereq is "manifester level 1st," then Hidden Talent won't work. Why not? You can't spend more pp on manifesting a power than your manifester level. If Hidden Talent doesn't give you a manifester level, then you couldn't manifest the power it lets you know. Or am I missing something incredibly obvious again?
InkBlot 02-03-08, 02:10 AM	Turn to page 67 of your Expanded Psionics Handbook. Hidden Talent states: This is not a manifester level That's why Hidden Talent doesn't let help qualify for things which require a manifester level.
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 01:34 PM	If my memory is correct, I suppose the plural makes a difference, and that is just the sort of thing I will be caught on. This is what you get for playing D&D with lawyers and law students. Ask your DM if a Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 4 (with at least 12 Charisma) qualifies for Mystic Theurge. Note that Mystic Theurge requires the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". The character I mentioned will only know one 2nd level Divine spell and one 2nd level Arcane spell, but will be able to cast each of them multiple times per day. Likewise for a Kalashtar with the Hidden Talent feat; he'll only know one 1st level power but will be able to manifest it multiple times per day.
no-sides-sameeth 02-03-08, 01:47 PM	That is actually a really good point. I can't think of a time when this issue has come up before, so I don't have any in game precedent. My guess is we will go with an argument like this, "The prereq says powers, powers is plural, thus you must have powers, not power." This is precisely the sort of thing that gets argued. When it says "Able to manifest powers (Plural), that means you must be able to manifest more than one distinct power." We will likely go with the strictest possible interpretation.
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 06:14 PM	I know, but I'm asking for a strict definition of the phrase "more than one power". More than one distinct power? More than one power per day? Both?
Belabras 02-04-08, 01:24 AM	Outside of the Talashtora debate- You should definitely check out the Blades of the Quori (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a) Dragonshard, for flavor and for the Flowing Blade feat that solves your whole flurry question neatly. You should also check out Races of Eberron for the several Kalashtar Soulknife feats, as well as the Atavist PRC.
no-sides-sameeth 02-05-08, 05:44 PM	Thank you, I saw the Blades of the Quori Dragonshard. It led me to strike question #2. The consensus among us is that the plural means you must manifest multiple discreet powers, not one power multiple times per day. I still believe that the intent of prerequisites that say that a character must be able to "cast x level spells" or "manifest x level powers" is that a single spell or power of x level is required; however, like I said in my OP, we are RAW literalists, so this ruling is unlikely to change. Thanks for the help.