Ectopic Forms... useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ectopic Forms... useless? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheAnthroDM
08-02-07, 11:53 PM I found another person post this and I must say I'm confused, how per say are any of the Ectopic Forms useless?
runestar
08-03-07, 12:04 AM If your DM allows your warforged wizard to assume the forms of astral constructs modified with ectopic form via alter self, then it seems far from useless, since it does grant useful movement boons like burrow.:)
NoldorForce
08-03-07, 12:20 AM They're considered useless because they don't give you the ability to choose your astral construct's abilities. In return for a medium-power ability, Ectopic Form locks in the rest.
Tempest Stormwind
08-03-07, 12:21 AM The idea is an ectopic form trades all your flexibility (including any from Boost Construct) for what amounts to an extra B menu choice. This choice and all the relevant removal of flexibility is fixed when you take Ectopic Form.

Meanwhile, Boost Construct gives you an extra menu choice. From level 7 onward, this is a menu B choice (just like any ectopic form, except it's open for you to choose, along with any other choices, based on the situation). From level 13 onward, it's a C choice.

Basically, ectopic form is fine if you pick one that's really, really good at low levels and reform it away at later levels. On the whole, it's a weak, worthless feat.
FponkDamn
08-03-07, 12:26 AM I had a character all made and ready to go, Psion into Ectotpic Adept, super excited about the cool Astral Constructs I would make, spending most of my feats on Ectopic Form, until I finally read what I had missed so many times - that Ectopic Form REPLACES the menu choices.

Sigh. Scrapped the whole deal.

Now, if there were some sort of additional feat (or even a houserule, under the most benevolent and lenient of DMs) that would allow the Forms to be used with Menu choices, we'd be in business.

- Johnny
Tempest Stormwind
08-03-07, 12:32 AM The Ectopic Adept.

"Damn, our class sucks. We need to amp it up or no one will play it. But I don't want to strengthen it, lest it actually be competitive."
"Okay, then, let's nerf Astral Construct to nigh-oblivion and let the adept be the only way around that nerf!"
"Okay, but that's too powerful, let him get around that restriction once per day."
"Great! Drinks all around!"

...Yeah, I hate the nerf, and the adept is only useful to 1/day get around the nerf.

Play a constructor and let your imagination dictate your construct forms.
NoldorForce
08-03-07, 12:39 AM Play a constructor and let your imagination dictate your construct forms.Constructor is a pile of Awesome with a dash of Uber on top.
AntiDjinn
08-03-07, 12:43 AM When Comp Psi first dropped, I considered Ectopic Form to like getting a chef's fixed price taster's menu while regular Astral Construct was like ordering your dinner a la carte. One gives a set of dishes selected by another, but chosen so the flavors fit together to form a theme, the other offers more flexibility but you pay for each item.

Now that I have had more time to look at the actual write-ups, I think Ectopic Form is like being served a TV Dinner. What is in it will never vary, and no one is ever going to be excited or surprised. Then again, a better model for regular constructs is the McCombo meal: You choose the components, but the price and how much you get is the same, unless you care to spend a feat on Boost Construct to super-size your order.
pale_enchantress
08-03-07, 02:19 AM I simply ignore the rule and make ectopic form apply in addition to the normal astral construct choices. Problem solved.

If i'm dming no one can disagree if someone else is DMing they will abide by what i say because I don't play D&D with DM's who don't give me preferential treatment.
TheAnthroDM
08-03-07, 02:25 AM I simply ignore the rule and make ectopic form apply in addition to the normal astral construct choices. Problem solved.

I did this. I didn't know Ectopic Form was suppose to replace choices, that's just.... stupid.
Arco Versipellis
08-03-07, 03:40 AM I had no idea. I guess since I have been "ignoring" the rule, I will continue to do so.
FponkDamn
08-03-07, 03:54 AM See, that's another issue - the rule is counter-intuitive. I'd be willing to bet that many players/DMs would simply assume that anything you'd be spending a feat (or many feats!) for simply has to be a bonus. So many probably just think that Ectopic form is on top of the menu choices and never worry.

I read the darned thing five or six times before I even realized. You really want to play a phenomenal Astral Construct maker at low-to-mid levels? Take Midnight Augmentation from Magic of Incarnum. Set it to Astral Construct, and if you blow your psionic focus when you manifest the construct, the Augment Cost becomes 1 instead of 2.

So you can create Astral Constructs of a level equal to your level - level 6 constructs at Psion 6 for 6 points, etc. It tops out at level 9, when the Constructs don't get any better, and then slowly becomes worse until at level 17 you're just getting a slight discount, and nothing more. But at those lower levels - wow! Let me tell you how a fifth-level psion summoning a fifth-level construct for 5 points really tears up a battle. It's not limited to times-per-day, either; just as often as you can refocus.

- Johnny
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
08-03-07, 07:02 PM Considering how bad the ectopic form feats are, would it be balanced to just ignore the part about no menu choices? If it's like an extra B option, it's not unlike taking Boost Construct, but with a choice you can't get elsewhere. It's the fix I've long considered, but I'm not sure of its balance.

Don't want to suggest a fix that ends up scaring the DM into using the nerf stick.
SlanderPanic
08-03-07, 07:14 PM There's a decent fix in my sig. Click the "Suck-Free Ectopics" link.
CrimsonDeath
08-04-07, 02:56 AM So you can create Astral Constructs of a level equal to your level - level 6 constructs at Psion 6 for 6 points, etc. It tops out at level 9, when the Constructs don't get any better, and then slowly becomes worse until at level 17 you're just getting a slight discount, and nothing more. But at those lower levels - wow! Let me tell you how a fifth-level psion summoning a fifth-level construct for 5 points really tears up a battle. It's not limited to times-per-day, either; just as often as you can refocus.

- Johnny
That depends on your reading of Midnight Augmentation. Many believe that it reduces the total augmentation by the amount of invested essentia, not the increment of augmentation. (I'm inclined to agree with this interpretation, since it doesn't result in... well... what you just said.)
FponkDamn
08-04-07, 03:39 AM Believe me, as the DM, I really wanted to believe that was true. But after many readings and cross-referencings, the language seems pretty clear - the incremental augmentation cost goes down. While some DMs may houserule the other way (and no jury would convict them of such a sensible solution) the feat works the way it sounds. Combined with Overchannel, Psions can actually be summoning Astral Constructs ABOVE their own level. Silly!

Of course, Astral Constructs in general needed help. At the maximum level where this is still good (7-8 or so) many feats have to be devoted to make this happen, and you still get only one really big construct. Of course, once the power level begins to wane (past level 9, when the Astral Construct caps out, and your actual level starts to catch up with your constructs) you can always pick a new power for Midnight Augmentation, since you pick the power it augments each day.

Overall, Midnight Augmentation is not a bad feat for any psion, especially if your race is one of the "incarnum" races, and you gain an additional essentia. While you can't lower the Augmentation cost to below 1, many higher-level powers have Aug. costs of 3 or more.

If you ask me, Midnight Augmentation is just a very poweful feat, but it sneaks in there because it's in a very fringe source, and only applies to an only slightly-less-fringe set of characters. Of course, allowing it meant I absolutely did NOT houserule that Ectopic Forms stack on menu choices - it's one or the other, baby. :)

- Johnny
Ryuoch
08-04-07, 01:59 PM The whole thing is just irritating. They nerf astral constructs, they nerf the rules for how many u can create, give us the Ectopic feats (because I got feats that don't need) that suck, then in the same breath publish stuff like elemental monolith.

Makes me want to punch babies.
mod5000
08-04-07, 07:29 PM Made ME so angry I almost baked a cat.
CrimsonDeath
08-05-07, 01:07 AM I took the Fourier transform (http://xkcd.com/26/) of a cat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheAnthroDM 08-02-07, 11:53 PM	I found another person post this and I must say I'm confused, how per say are any of the Ectopic Forms useless?
runestar 08-03-07, 12:04 AM	If your DM allows your warforged wizard to assume the forms of astral constructs modified with ectopic form via alter self, then it seems far from useless, since it does grant useful movement boons like burrow.:)
NoldorForce 08-03-07, 12:20 AM	They're considered useless because they don't give you the ability to choose your astral construct's abilities. In return for a medium-power ability, Ectopic Form locks in the rest.
Tempest Stormwind 08-03-07, 12:21 AM	The idea is an ectopic form trades all your flexibility (including any from Boost Construct) for what amounts to an extra B menu choice. This choice and all the relevant removal of flexibility is fixed when you take Ectopic Form. Meanwhile, Boost Construct gives you an extra menu choice. From level 7 onward, this is a menu B choice (just like any ectopic form, except it's open for you to choose, along with any other choices, based on the situation). From level 13 onward, it's a C choice. Basically, ectopic form is fine if you pick one that's really, really good at low levels and reform it away at later levels. On the whole, it's a weak, worthless feat.
FponkDamn 08-03-07, 12:26 AM	I had a character all made and ready to go, Psion into Ectotpic Adept, super excited about the cool Astral Constructs I would make, spending most of my feats on Ectopic Form, until I finally read what I had missed so many times - that Ectopic Form REPLACES the menu choices. Sigh. Scrapped the whole deal. Now, if there were some sort of additional feat (or even a houserule, under the most benevolent and lenient of DMs) that would allow the Forms to be used with Menu choices, we'd be in business. - Johnny
Tempest Stormwind 08-03-07, 12:32 AM	The Ectopic Adept. "Damn, our class sucks. We need to amp it up or no one will play it. But I don't want to strengthen it, lest it actually be competitive." "Okay, then, let's nerf Astral Construct to nigh-oblivion and let the adept be the only way around that nerf!" "Okay, but that's too powerful, let him get around that restriction once per day." "Great! Drinks all around!" ...Yeah, I hate the nerf, and the adept is only useful to 1/day get around the nerf. Play a constructor and let your imagination dictate your construct forms.
NoldorForce 08-03-07, 12:39 AM	Play a constructor and let your imagination dictate your construct forms.Constructor is a pile of Awesome with a dash of Uber on top.
AntiDjinn 08-03-07, 12:43 AM	When Comp Psi first dropped, I considered Ectopic Form to like getting a chef's fixed price taster's menu while regular Astral Construct was like ordering your dinner a la carte. One gives a set of dishes selected by another, but chosen so the flavors fit together to form a theme, the other offers more flexibility but you pay for each item. Now that I have had more time to look at the actual write-ups, I think Ectopic Form is like being served a TV Dinner. What is in it will never vary, and no one is ever going to be excited or surprised. Then again, a better model for regular constructs is the McCombo meal: You choose the components, but the price and how much you get is the same, unless you care to spend a feat on Boost Construct to super-size your order.
pale_enchantress 08-03-07, 02:19 AM	I simply ignore the rule and make ectopic form apply in addition to the normal astral construct choices. Problem solved. If i'm dming no one can disagree if someone else is DMing they will abide by what i say because I don't play D&D with DM's who don't give me preferential treatment.
TheAnthroDM 08-03-07, 02:25 AM	I simply ignore the rule and make ectopic form apply in addition to the normal astral construct choices. Problem solved. I did this. I didn't know Ectopic Form was suppose to replace choices, that's just.... stupid.
Arco Versipellis 08-03-07, 03:40 AM	I had no idea. I guess since I have been "ignoring" the rule, I will continue to do so.
FponkDamn 08-03-07, 03:54 AM	See, that's another issue - the rule is counter-intuitive. I'd be willing to bet that many players/DMs would simply assume that anything you'd be spending a feat (or many feats!) for simply has to be a bonus. So many probably just think that Ectopic form is on top of the menu choices and never worry. I read the darned thing five or six times before I even realized. You really want to play a phenomenal Astral Construct maker at low-to-mid levels? Take Midnight Augmentation from Magic of Incarnum. Set it to Astral Construct, and if you blow your psionic focus when you manifest the construct, the Augment Cost becomes 1 instead of 2. So you can create Astral Constructs of a level equal to your level - level 6 constructs at Psion 6 for 6 points, etc. It tops out at level 9, when the Constructs don't get any better, and then slowly becomes worse until at level 17 you're just getting a slight discount, and nothing more. But at those lower levels - wow! Let me tell you how a fifth-level psion summoning a fifth-level construct for 5 points really tears up a battle. It's not limited to times-per-day, either; just as often as you can refocus. - Johnny
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-03-07, 07:02 PM	Considering how bad the ectopic form feats are, would it be balanced to just ignore the part about no menu choices? If it's like an extra B option, it's not unlike taking Boost Construct, but with a choice you can't get elsewhere. It's the fix I've long considered, but I'm not sure of its balance. Don't want to suggest a fix that ends up scaring the DM into using the nerf stick.
SlanderPanic 08-03-07, 07:14 PM	There's a decent fix in my sig. Click the "Suck-Free Ectopics" link.
CrimsonDeath 08-04-07, 02:56 AM	So you can create Astral Constructs of a level equal to your level - level 6 constructs at Psion 6 for 6 points, etc. It tops out at level 9, when the Constructs don't get any better, and then slowly becomes worse until at level 17 you're just getting a slight discount, and nothing more. But at those lower levels - wow! Let me tell you how a fifth-level psion summoning a fifth-level construct for 5 points really tears up a battle. It's not limited to times-per-day, either; just as often as you can refocus. - Johnny That depends on your reading of Midnight Augmentation. Many believe that it reduces the total augmentation by the amount of invested essentia, not the increment of augmentation. (I'm inclined to agree with this interpretation, since it doesn't result in... well... what you just said.)
FponkDamn 08-04-07, 03:39 AM	Believe me, as the DM, I really wanted to believe that was true. But after many readings and cross-referencings, the language seems pretty clear - the incremental augmentation cost goes down. While some DMs may houserule the other way (and no jury would convict them of such a sensible solution) the feat works the way it sounds. Combined with Overchannel, Psions can actually be summoning Astral Constructs ABOVE their own level. Silly! Of course, Astral Constructs in general needed help. At the maximum level where this is still good (7-8 or so) many feats have to be devoted to make this happen, and you still get only one really big construct. Of course, once the power level begins to wane (past level 9, when the Astral Construct caps out, and your actual level starts to catch up with your constructs) you can always pick a new power for Midnight Augmentation, since you pick the power it augments each day. Overall, Midnight Augmentation is not a bad feat for any psion, especially if your race is one of the "incarnum" races, and you gain an additional essentia. While you can't lower the Augmentation cost to below 1, many higher-level powers have Aug. costs of 3 or more. If you ask me, Midnight Augmentation is just a very poweful feat, but it sneaks in there because it's in a very fringe source, and only applies to an only slightly-less-fringe set of characters. Of course, allowing it meant I absolutely did NOT houserule that Ectopic Forms stack on menu choices - it's one or the other, baby. :) - Johnny
Ryuoch 08-04-07, 01:59 PM	The whole thing is just irritating. They nerf astral constructs, they nerf the rules for how many u can create, give us the Ectopic feats (because I got feats that don't need) that suck, then in the same breath publish stuff like elemental monolith. Makes me want to punch babies.
mod5000 08-04-07, 07:29 PM	Made ME so angry I almost baked a cat.
CrimsonDeath 08-05-07, 01:07 AM	I took the Fourier transform (http://xkcd.com/26/) of a cat.