effective defense againt mind thrust [Archive] - Wizards Community

effective defense againt mind thrust [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 05:22 PM Hai!!!

In a campaign im in right now there is a psion...........

A Werewolf Psion of all things.

Anyways in combat he uses mind thrust and does 70 Damage, every time

So then i looked up mind thrust on the SRD and learned that he would have to be a strait Lv11 Psion useing a maximized augmented mind thrust to do 70 DMG.

right now were 7th Lv.

So hes going over board by 4 Levels plus the LA of the werewolf

I plan to tell the DM at the next meeting

However i am concerned that my DM will let it slide and this player is a known party killer (well trying to kill my characters at least). he attempted to kill the party in every campaign ive ever been in with him.

Anyways i would like to have some Defense against his Mind thrust

My Character is a Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 Human with
37HP (yeah a one hit KO)
6 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 24 INT, 14 WIS, & 12 CHA
AC:10
Feats: Practiced SpellcasterX2 (wizard & Archivist), Alacritous cogitation, & leadership
Cohort: LV5 Crusader Dwarf (going into Devoted Defender)
75HP
14 STR, 12 DEX, 22 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
Feats: Wea. Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Alertness
AC:26 (+1 Dex, +1 Full Plate (+9), +1 Steel Towershield (+6))

Any help will be appreciated =3
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 05:28 PM I put this in the wrong area

Changing it over to Whats a player to do area

sorry!!!
JimProfit
02-18-08, 05:29 PM This might sound like a lame way to help combat mind thrust but take Iron Will.

Or ask your DM if you can have a magic item of some sortof to teach him a lesson. Perhaps a helmet of madness where any telepathic attempt results in the power being dispelled and them having to make a will save or suffer confusion.
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 05:36 PM This might sound like a lame way to help combat mind thrust but take Iron Will.

Or ask your DM if you can have a magic item of some sortof to teach him a lesson. Perhaps a helmet of madness where any telepathic attempt results in the power being dispelled and them having to make a will save or suffer confusion.

well i dont think the DM is going to give me anything but mind thrust will at least help with the will save
AntiDjinn
02-18-08, 05:40 PM To do exactly 70 points he needs to be spending 7 points to manifest (Damage = 7d10, DC = 10 + 1 (1st level power) + 3 (1 for each additional 2d10) + Int mod + special (Psionic endowment, certain items) + he must be using Maximize power (+ 4 points).

So that is a cost of 11 points, he needs to be ML 11 to do this. At level 9 he could do this with Overchannel (and could use Talented to avoid the damage). Practiced Manifester adds 4 to his ML as long as the total does not exceed his character level. If he has more dice than 7, then he outstrips you in overall character level. If not, then Practiced Manifester doesn't let him do what he is doing. Power Link Shards (pre-errata) allow ML to be exceeded a limited number of times per day, if you are playing in Eberron and the DM his handing those out (ask for a Thought Bottle and a $1000 stipend from the DM if that is the case; he is so desperate to have people like him that he will probably say Yes).

Unless your DM has introduced table rules, there is really no way for a level 7 psion to spend 11 points on a power manifestation. Normally, the best defense against Mind Thrust is simply to make the Will save and take nothing. But if he is making up his own rules to bypass the ML limit, odds are he is making up an absurdly high DC as well.
Eerongal
02-18-08, 05:46 PM the three simplest ways that come to mind off hand:

easy way - become undead

currently unavailable easy way - mind blank

hard way - boost your will save
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 05:52 PM It really depends on his level in psion and how many hit dice he has from his werewolf template. If he's a human/werewolf (2) psion (7) with Overchannel, Practiced Manifester, and Maximize Power, he has a total of 9 hit dice (and an effective ML of 9, with Practiced Manifester), with Overchannel (+2 ML) = ML 11 (while taking 3d8 damage). He's also 4 levels higher than you, and has an ECL of 11.

Which means he SHOULD be able to kick your arse unless you get the jump on him. Talk to him and the DM, figure out what's going on, and ask for some parity between you. He might be misunderstanding the racial HD/LA rules, or he might be an evil munchkin. Don't assume which one until you've talked to them (but by the sounds of things, he should be singing 'Ding Dong the Witch is Dead' while deep-frying Dorothy and Toto).

DM overrule. If he's cheating, tell the DM, ask the player how he's managing to deal so much damage at that level, and then take one of the antipsionic feats in the XPH, and boost your will save.

What's your class and race, feats, etc? That might help cover your bases, especially if you have lots of feats or a good Will save.

Also, anything with Spell/Power resistance or immunity to mind-affecting effects should help shut him down.

You could also get the help of some NPCs to cover your back. Take Leadership or head toward Thrallherd. Pay some bodyguards to watch your back. Have the party spellcaster (if any) or UMD'ing rogue use a mark of justice on him while he's asleep. Justify it by talking to the DM and rolling some Sense Motive checks.

Contact a cabal of friendly wizards and pay some of them to scry on him; when he inevitably turns traitor, make sure that they're contracted to show up on your behalf to incapacitate him.

Don't let him (or his character) know that you're doing this, however, but make sure the DM (and possibly the other players) know what you're up to, just so it's not a virtual DMPC deus ex machina.

Good luck with this guy; it sounds like he's a real handful...
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 05:53 PM To do exactly 70 points he needs to be spending 7 points to manifest (Damage = 7d10, DC = 10 + 1 (1st level power) + 3 (1 for each additional 2d10) + Int mod + special (Psionic endowment, certain items) + he must be using Maximize power (+ 4 points).

So that is a cost of 11 points, he needs to be ML 11 to do this. At level 9 he could do this with Overchannel (and could use Talented to avoid the damage). Practiced Manifester adds 4 to his ML as long as the total does not exceed his character level. If he has more dice than 7, then he outstrips you in overall character level. If not, then Practiced Manifester doesn't let him do what he is doing. Power Link Shards (pre-errata) allow ML to be exceeded a limited number of times per day, if you are playing in Eberron and the DM his handing those out (ask for a Thought Bottle and a $1000 stipend from the DM if that is the case; he is so desperate to have people like him that he will probably say Yes).

Unless your DM has introduced table rules, there is really no way for a level 7 psion to spend 11 points on a power manifestation. Normally, the best defense against Mind Thrust is simply to make the Will save and take nothing. But if he is making up his own rules to bypass the ML limit, odds are he is making up an absurdly high DC as well.

Well his INT is in the mid 20s so the save will be like, 20?
When he let me look at his character sheet, his stats were all over 12 and probably higher. I also caught sight of something under his race and learned he something besides a werewolf. I honestly have never seen a non suspicious character come from him. I also know, while it may be in the rules, that his cohort is a Werebear Troll, which can do +45 DMG in melee ( a reason I never allow a character with LA3 or higher in my campaigns.) He also seem to bring every single follower he has around with him...
Well ether way his whole setup seem suspicious...
AntiDjinn
02-18-08, 05:58 PM In that case it is pointless to look for a balanced and legal response in the standard rules when the standard rules have nothing to do with what you are facing. If he actually is 4 character levels above you, then you loose. Ask the DM what is up, if he doesn't know then ask if he would consider growing a pair and taking some semblance of control over his game.
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 06:23 PM What's your class and race, feats, etc? That might help cover your bases, especially if you have lots of feats or a good Will save.

My Character is a Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 Human with
37HP (yeah a one hit KO)
6 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 24 INT, 14 WIS, & 12 CHA
AC:10
Saves: 6 FORT, 4 REF, 12 WILL
Feats: Practiced SpellcasterX2 (wizard & Archivist), Alacritous cogitation, & leadership
Cohort: LV5 Crusader Dwarf (going into Devoted Defender)
75HP
14 STR, 12 DEX, 22 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA
Saves: 12 FORT, 5 REF, 4 Will
Feats: Wea. Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Alertness
AC:26 (+1 Dex, +1 Full Plate (+9), +1 Steel Towershield (+6))

You could also get the help of some NPCs to cover your back. Take Leadership or head toward Thrallherd. Pay some bodyguards to watch your back. Have the party spellcaster (if any) or UMD'ing rogue use a mark of justice on him while he's asleep. Justify it by talking to the DM and rolling some Sense Motive checks.

I have leadership.
nearly Everyone in the group excluding Him, who is a psion, can use magic in some way but Imguessing NONE of them are going to help me

Blackguard 1 / Barbarian 6 CE
he would be a main threat if he wasnt new to DnD but hes not going to help me and will probably go to the Psions side

Druid 7 TN
The Druid is the only Strait caster in the group besides me and my Mystic Thurge awsomeness. Hes probably going to side with whoever the one being attacked (EX: I cast Magic Missle on Psion he casts Call lightning on me)

Me-Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 plus Crusader 5 LN
Well I thing Im on my Side

Monk 6/Assassin 1 LE
The only character that will join on my side would be this guy, who can probably be bribed on to the psions side.

Ranger(archer) 7 Alignment N/K
Well marcus is going to do what marcus does

Psion ??? Werewolf/Human/??? ECL 7 (OR IT SHOULD BE!!!) CN
Yeah, hell help me put an end to himself

Yeah that my party

By the way, in what book is mark of justice?
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 06:25 PM In that case it is pointless to look for a balanced and legal response in the standard rules when the standard rules have nothing to do with what you are facing. If he actually is 4 character levels above you, then you loose. Ask the DM what is up, if he doesn't know then ask if he would consider growing a pair and taking some semblance of control over his game.

the DM never looked at are characters.
he said specifically that he trusting are word for our characters.
Yeah, thats right.
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 06:26 PM It's a core spell. See the SRD for details.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 06:33 PM I Should also note that the campaign is "expedition to Castle Ravenloft"
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 06:34 PM the DM never looked at are characters.
he said specifically that he trusting are word for our characters.
Yeah, thats right.Sorry, you're screwed.

Throw him to the vampires.

[edit] Or, try to play the other characters against each other? Are you good at screwing with peoples' minds (out of character)? Make them paranoid and play them against each other. You should be able to do that as a spellcaster, even just with the prestidigitation spell. Start swiping your "friends'" swag and planting it on someone else. Use spells to steal from the treasure hoard and secret it away in the psion's backpack. Cause (minor) havoc that seems to come from the psion and blame it on him (even if you're the one that has to take the annoyance as the 'victim'). Basically, make them be more worried about each other than about you.

But make sure it's all in good fun and that nobody (players, not characters) gets ticked off because of it. It's all for fun, yes?
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 06:46 PM It's a core spell. See the SRD for details.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm

So I would cast this spell on him and designate he cannot "Cause harm in any way to the party, Have anything to do with anything that would cause any harm on the party, and keep secret any knowledge that would cause any harm to the party".
Then if he even planed to attack the party or me he would simply not be able to act half the time.
Am I rolling in the right direction?
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 06:49 PM Pretty much, though you'll have to find a way to get past his minions.

Being invisible and casting a Silenced mark of justice should help with that.

There are other spells, too, though I'll let you do the pondering on that, since you're the spellcaster, here. :)
Thorden_Lyon
02-18-08, 07:21 PM The good question is: Why are you playing with him? As far as I can see he is ruining your fun and maybe the other player's.

Sometimes, people forget it is all about fun as long as you don't always ruin other's fun in the process. If he doesn't understand, go play with someone else. If you find a way to deal with the mind thrust "cheat", he will find another as long as he doesn't (can't) understand the meaning of having fun TOGETHER. Finding an "in game" solution will be temporary at best.
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 07:27 PM The good question is: Why are you playing with him? As far as I can see he is ruining your fun and maybe the other player's.

Sometimes, people forget it is all about fun as long as you don't always ruin other's fun in the process. If he doesn't understand, go play with someone else. If you find a way to deal with the mind thrust "cheat", he will find another as long as he doesn't (can't) understand the meaning of having fun TOGETHER. Finding an "in game" solution will be temporary at best.That IS a good point, but when we have friends that play, and don't know anyone else who does, or when it's the only group around, we don't always have much of a choice.

However, it does seem like this one person is the core of the problem, and if he gets too disruptive, talk to him, then to the other players and the DM. If he IS cheating, and he's ruining everyone's fun, then he might not be worth keeping around.

Mine was just a suggestion on bringing him back in-line through the game.

However, he really doesn't have the right to send your game spiralling down into flames.
CrimsonDeath
02-18-08, 07:30 PM I also know, while it may be in the rules, that his cohort is a Werebear Troll, which can do +45 DMG in melee ( a reason I never allow a character with LA3 or higher in my campaigns.)

A werebear troll is a valid creature. It has 12 HD and +8 LA, making it ECL 20. So it's not a valid cohort until its leader is level 22.

In other words, your friend is cheating. Badly.
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 07:39 PM A werebear troll is a valid creature. It has 12 HD and +8 LA, making it ECL 20. So it's not a valid cohort until its leader is level 22.

In other words, your friend is cheating. Badly.

LV 22, WTF?!?

That cheating :censored: !!!
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 07:43 PM http://blogsap.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg
X0_Lt_0X
02-18-08, 07:55 PM That IS a good point, but when we have friends that play, and don't know anyone else who does, or when it's the only group around, we don't always have much of a choice.

However, it does seem like this one person is the core of the problem, and if he gets too disruptive, talk to him, then to the other players and the DM. If he IS cheating, and he's ruining everyone's fun, then he might not be worth keeping around.

Mine was just a suggestion on bringing him back in-line through the game.

However, he really doesn't have the right to send your game spiralling down into flames.

Well the fact of the matter is that We are the only group (or, more appropriately, Group"s") in town. And sense I dont have a car, i dont think im going to the next town over. Hes also the DM of another campaign Im in, which is a Hackmaster campaign (effectively an edited version of ADnD). Right know im waiting for a friend to finish the constuction of his campaign. Once he done with it im going to jump over. The guy playing the psion will probably come over to, but this DM wont allow party killing (or at least stop the Coup De Grace with the random ninja guy that seems to be around in every campaign this guy is in) Or that time when I became the Guildmaster of a group of psion-Assassins and they pretty much teleported over and "effectively" "disabled" him. Ah good times, good times......
Lycanthromancer
02-18-08, 08:06 PM This shouldn't be WoW on a server with PvP turned on.

Playing two players/groups against each other can be fun, but it isn't fun at all if you get killed just because someone wants to get their jollies off.

Oh, and a point I can make: Start getting scrolls of clone and astral projection. Even if you die, you won't. If you have someplace safe to reconnoiter that the munchkin doesn't know about (even if it's in a portable hole or Heward's handy haversack), hide your real body and your clones there, and have a contingency/teleport set to go off to transport your real body there if you *really* die, so the lollipop guildmember can't steal your stuff.

See the pantheon-killing wizard in my sig for more evil tricks.
Tedronai
02-18-08, 09:17 PM When a player cheats for the purpose of PvP, there is a simple solution. The other players do the same (and when they cheat in other situations, the same solution works for the DM).

He's ignoring ECL, ML limits, and DC calculations? You roll nothing but 20s, and have HP higher than an Overdeity. ONLY when dealing with him, of course (and anyone allied with him in his endeavors).

OR, just wait until everyone else is asleep, grab your Heavy Pick, and CdG his ass.

...

And him, of course, don't want that donkey to be lonely...:P
InkBlot
02-18-08, 11:58 PM Hes also the DM of another campaign Im in, which is a Hackmaster campaign ...

Hackmaster (http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_26)!? That kind of explains it. The whole point of (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12222.phtml) Hackmaster is to get the players to cheat, to pit them against the DM, and make a game out of the metagaming.
X0_Lt_0X
02-19-08, 12:03 AM Hackmaster (http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_26)!? That kind of explains it. The whole point of (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12222.phtml) Hackmaster is to get the players to cheat, to pit them against the DM, and make a game out of the metagaming.

It wouldn't surprise me
CrimsonDeath
02-19-08, 07:23 AM When a player cheats for the purpose of PvP, there is a simple solution. The other players do the same (and when they cheat in other situations, the same solution works for the DM).

He's ignoring ECL, ML limits, and DC calculations? You roll nothing but 20s, and have HP higher than an Overdeity. ONLY when dealing with him, of course (and anyone allied with him in his endeavors).

I didn't want to suggest cheating, but it's particularly easy when your opponent's primary (perhaps only) mode of attack is Mind Thrust.
King_Of_Blood
02-19-08, 03:04 PM Maybe you should introduce him to a certain level 1 ardent if he ends up killing you before you can stop him...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 05:22 PM	Hai!!! In a campaign im in right now there is a psion........... A Werewolf Psion of all things. Anyways in combat he uses mind thrust and does 70 Damage, every time So then i looked up mind thrust on the SRD and learned that he would have to be a strait Lv11 Psion useing a maximized augmented mind thrust to do 70 DMG. right now were 7th Lv. So hes going over board by 4 Levels plus the LA of the werewolf I plan to tell the DM at the next meeting However i am concerned that my DM will let it slide and this player is a known party killer (well trying to kill my characters at least). he attempted to kill the party in every campaign ive ever been in with him. Anyways i would like to have some Defense against his Mind thrust My Character is a Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 Human with 37HP (yeah a one hit KO) 6 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 24 INT, 14 WIS, & 12 CHA AC:10 Feats: Practiced SpellcasterX2 (wizard & Archivist), Alacritous cogitation, & leadership Cohort: LV5 Crusader Dwarf (going into Devoted Defender) 75HP 14 STR, 12 DEX, 22 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA Feats: Wea. Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Alertness AC:26 (+1 Dex, +1 Full Plate (+9), +1 Steel Towershield (+6)) Any help will be appreciated =3
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 05:28 PM	I put this in the wrong area Changing it over to Whats a player to do area sorry!!!
JimProfit 02-18-08, 05:29 PM	This might sound like a lame way to help combat mind thrust but take Iron Will. Or ask your DM if you can have a magic item of some sortof to teach him a lesson. Perhaps a helmet of madness where any telepathic attempt results in the power being dispelled and them having to make a will save or suffer confusion.
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 05:36 PM	This might sound like a lame way to help combat mind thrust but take Iron Will. Or ask your DM if you can have a magic item of some sortof to teach him a lesson. Perhaps a helmet of madness where any telepathic attempt results in the power being dispelled and them having to make a will save or suffer confusion. well i dont think the DM is going to give me anything but mind thrust will at least help with the will save
AntiDjinn 02-18-08, 05:40 PM	To do exactly 70 points he needs to be spending 7 points to manifest (Damage = 7d10, DC = 10 + 1 (1st level power) + 3 (1 for each additional 2d10) + Int mod + special (Psionic endowment, certain items) + he must be using Maximize power (+ 4 points). So that is a cost of 11 points, he needs to be ML 11 to do this. At level 9 he could do this with Overchannel (and could use Talented to avoid the damage). Practiced Manifester adds 4 to his ML as long as the total does not exceed his character level. If he has more dice than 7, then he outstrips you in overall character level. If not, then Practiced Manifester doesn't let him do what he is doing. Power Link Shards (pre-errata) allow ML to be exceeded a limited number of times per day, if you are playing in Eberron and the DM his handing those out (ask for a Thought Bottle and a $1000 stipend from the DM if that is the case; he is so desperate to have people like him that he will probably say Yes). Unless your DM has introduced table rules, there is really no way for a level 7 psion to spend 11 points on a power manifestation. Normally, the best defense against Mind Thrust is simply to make the Will save and take nothing. But if he is making up his own rules to bypass the ML limit, odds are he is making up an absurdly high DC as well.
Eerongal 02-18-08, 05:46 PM	the three simplest ways that come to mind off hand: easy way - become undead currently unavailable easy way - mind blank hard way - boost your will save
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 05:52 PM	It really depends on his level in psion and how many hit dice he has from his werewolf template. If he's a human/werewolf (2) psion (7) with Overchannel, Practiced Manifester, and Maximize Power, he has a total of 9 hit dice (and an effective ML of 9, with Practiced Manifester), with Overchannel (+2 ML) = ML 11 (while taking 3d8 damage). He's also 4 levels higher than you, and has an ECL of 11. Which means he SHOULD be able to kick your arse unless you get the jump on him. Talk to him and the DM, figure out what's going on, and ask for some parity between you. He might be misunderstanding the racial HD/LA rules, or he might be an evil munchkin. Don't assume which one until you've talked to them (but by the sounds of things, he should be singing 'Ding Dong the Witch is Dead' while deep-frying Dorothy and Toto). DM overrule. If he's cheating, tell the DM, ask the player how he's managing to deal so much damage at that level, and then take one of the antipsionic feats in the XPH, and boost your will save. What's your class and race, feats, etc? That might help cover your bases, especially if you have lots of feats or a good Will save. Also, anything with Spell/Power resistance or immunity to mind-affecting effects should help shut him down. You could also get the help of some NPCs to cover your back. Take Leadership or head toward Thrallherd. Pay some bodyguards to watch your back. Have the party spellcaster (if any) or UMD'ing rogue use a mark of justice on him while he's asleep. Justify it by talking to the DM and rolling some Sense Motive checks. Contact a cabal of friendly wizards and pay some of them to scry on him; when he inevitably turns traitor, make sure that they're contracted to show up on your behalf to incapacitate him. Don't let him (or his character) know that you're doing this, however, but make sure the DM (and possibly the other players) know what you're up to, just so it's not a virtual DMPC deus ex machina. Good luck with this guy; it sounds like he's a real handful...
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 05:53 PM	To do exactly 70 points he needs to be spending 7 points to manifest (Damage = 7d10, DC = 10 + 1 (1st level power) + 3 (1 for each additional 2d10) + Int mod + special (Psionic endowment, certain items) + he must be using Maximize power (+ 4 points). So that is a cost of 11 points, he needs to be ML 11 to do this. At level 9 he could do this with Overchannel (and could use Talented to avoid the damage). Practiced Manifester adds 4 to his ML as long as the total does not exceed his character level. If he has more dice than 7, then he outstrips you in overall character level. If not, then Practiced Manifester doesn't let him do what he is doing. Power Link Shards (pre-errata) allow ML to be exceeded a limited number of times per day, if you are playing in Eberron and the DM his handing those out (ask for a Thought Bottle and a $1000 stipend from the DM if that is the case; he is so desperate to have people like him that he will probably say Yes). Unless your DM has introduced table rules, there is really no way for a level 7 psion to spend 11 points on a power manifestation. Normally, the best defense against Mind Thrust is simply to make the Will save and take nothing. But if he is making up his own rules to bypass the ML limit, odds are he is making up an absurdly high DC as well. Well his INT is in the mid 20s so the save will be like, 20? When he let me look at his character sheet, his stats were all over 12 and probably higher. I also caught sight of something under his race and learned he something besides a werewolf. I honestly have never seen a non suspicious character come from him. I also know, while it may be in the rules, that his cohort is a Werebear Troll, which can do +45 DMG in melee ( a reason I never allow a character with LA3 or higher in my campaigns.) He also seem to bring every single follower he has around with him... Well ether way his whole setup seem suspicious...
AntiDjinn 02-18-08, 05:58 PM	In that case it is pointless to look for a balanced and legal response in the standard rules when the standard rules have nothing to do with what you are facing. If he actually is 4 character levels above you, then you loose. Ask the DM what is up, if he doesn't know then ask if he would consider growing a pair and taking some semblance of control over his game.
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 06:23 PM	What's your class and race, feats, etc? That might help cover your bases, especially if you have lots of feats or a good Will save. My Character is a Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 Human with 37HP (yeah a one hit KO) 6 STR, 10 DEX, 12 CON, 24 INT, 14 WIS, & 12 CHA AC:10 Saves: 6 FORT, 4 REF, 12 WILL Feats: Practiced SpellcasterX2 (wizard & Archivist), Alacritous cogitation, & leadership Cohort: LV5 Crusader Dwarf (going into Devoted Defender) 75HP 14 STR, 12 DEX, 22 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA Saves: 12 FORT, 5 REF, 4 Will Feats: Wea. Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Alertness AC:26 (+1 Dex, +1 Full Plate (+9), +1 Steel Towershield (+6)) You could also get the help of some NPCs to cover your back. Take Leadership or head toward Thrallherd. Pay some bodyguards to watch your back. Have the party spellcaster (if any) or UMD'ing rogue use a mark of justice on him while he's asleep. Justify it by talking to the DM and rolling some Sense Motive checks. I have leadership. nearly Everyone in the group excluding Him, who is a psion, can use magic in some way but Imguessing NONE of them are going to help me Blackguard 1 / Barbarian 6 CE he would be a main threat if he wasnt new to DnD but hes not going to help me and will probably go to the Psions side Druid 7 TN The Druid is the only Strait caster in the group besides me and my Mystic Thurge awsomeness. Hes probably going to side with whoever the one being attacked (EX: I cast Magic Missle on Psion he casts Call lightning on me) Me-Archivist 3/ Wizard 3/ Mystic Thurge 1 plus Crusader 5 LN Well I thing Im on my Side Monk 6/Assassin 1 LE The only character that will join on my side would be this guy, who can probably be bribed on to the psions side. Ranger(archer) 7 Alignment N/K Well marcus is going to do what marcus does Psion ??? Werewolf/Human/??? ECL 7 (OR IT SHOULD BE!!!) CN Yeah, hell help me put an end to himself Yeah that my party By the way, in what book is mark of justice?
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 06:25 PM	In that case it is pointless to look for a balanced and legal response in the standard rules when the standard rules have nothing to do with what you are facing. If he actually is 4 character levels above you, then you loose. Ask the DM what is up, if he doesn't know then ask if he would consider growing a pair and taking some semblance of control over his game. the DM never looked at are characters. he said specifically that he trusting are word for our characters. Yeah, thats right.
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 06:26 PM	It's a core spell. See the SRD for details. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 06:33 PM	I Should also note that the campaign is "expedition to Castle Ravenloft"
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 06:34 PM	the DM never looked at are characters. he said specifically that he trusting are word for our characters. Yeah, thats right.Sorry, you're screwed. Throw him to the vampires. [edit] Or, try to play the other characters against each other? Are you good at screwing with peoples' minds (out of character)? Make them paranoid and play them against each other. You should be able to do that as a spellcaster, even just with the prestidigitation spell. Start swiping your "friends'" swag and planting it on someone else. Use spells to steal from the treasure hoard and secret it away in the psion's backpack. Cause (minor) havoc that seems to come from the psion and blame it on him (even if you're the one that has to take the annoyance as the 'victim'). Basically, make them be more worried about each other than about you. But make sure it's all in good fun and that nobody (players, not characters) gets ticked off because of it. It's all for fun, yes?
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 06:46 PM	It's a core spell. See the SRD for details. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm So I would cast this spell on him and designate he cannot "Cause harm in any way to the party, Have anything to do with anything that would cause any harm on the party, and keep secret any knowledge that would cause any harm to the party". Then if he even planed to attack the party or me he would simply not be able to act half the time. Am I rolling in the right direction?
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 06:49 PM	Pretty much, though you'll have to find a way to get past his minions. Being invisible and casting a Silenced mark of justice should help with that. There are other spells, too, though I'll let you do the pondering on that, since you're the spellcaster, here. :)
Thorden_Lyon 02-18-08, 07:21 PM	The good question is: Why are you playing with him? As far as I can see he is ruining your fun and maybe the other player's. Sometimes, people forget it is all about fun as long as you don't always ruin other's fun in the process. If he doesn't understand, go play with someone else. If you find a way to deal with the mind thrust "cheat", he will find another as long as he doesn't (can't) understand the meaning of having fun TOGETHER. Finding an "in game" solution will be temporary at best.
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 07:27 PM	The good question is: Why are you playing with him? As far as I can see he is ruining your fun and maybe the other player's. Sometimes, people forget it is all about fun as long as you don't always ruin other's fun in the process. If he doesn't understand, go play with someone else. If you find a way to deal with the mind thrust "cheat", he will find another as long as he doesn't (can't) understand the meaning of having fun TOGETHER. Finding an "in game" solution will be temporary at best.That IS a good point, but when we have friends that play, and don't know anyone else who does, or when it's the only group around, we don't always have much of a choice. However, it does seem like this one person is the core of the problem, and if he gets too disruptive, talk to him, then to the other players and the DM. If he IS cheating, and he's ruining everyone's fun, then he might not be worth keeping around. Mine was just a suggestion on bringing him back in-line through the game. However, he really doesn't have the right to send your game spiralling down into flames.
CrimsonDeath 02-18-08, 07:30 PM	I also know, while it may be in the rules, that his cohort is a Werebear Troll, which can do +45 DMG in melee ( a reason I never allow a character with LA3 or higher in my campaigns.) A werebear troll is a valid creature. It has 12 HD and +8 LA, making it ECL 20. So it's not a valid cohort until its leader is level 22. In other words, your friend is cheating. Badly.
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 07:39 PM	A werebear troll is a valid creature. It has 12 HD and +8 LA, making it ECL 20. So it's not a valid cohort until its leader is level 22. In other words, your friend is cheating. Badly. LV 22, WTF?!? That cheating :censored: !!!
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 07:43 PM	http://blogsap.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg
X0_Lt_0X 02-18-08, 07:55 PM	That IS a good point, but when we have friends that play, and don't know anyone else who does, or when it's the only group around, we don't always have much of a choice. However, it does seem like this one person is the core of the problem, and if he gets too disruptive, talk to him, then to the other players and the DM. If he IS cheating, and he's ruining everyone's fun, then he might not be worth keeping around. Mine was just a suggestion on bringing him back in-line through the game. However, he really doesn't have the right to send your game spiralling down into flames. Well the fact of the matter is that We are the only group (or, more appropriately, Group"s") in town. And sense I dont have a car, i dont think im going to the next town over. Hes also the DM of another campaign Im in, which is a Hackmaster campaign (effectively an edited version of ADnD). Right know im waiting for a friend to finish the constuction of his campaign. Once he done with it im going to jump over. The guy playing the psion will probably come over to, but this DM wont allow party killing (or at least stop the Coup De Grace with the random ninja guy that seems to be around in every campaign this guy is in) Or that time when I became the Guildmaster of a group of psion-Assassins and they pretty much teleported over and "effectively" "disabled" him. Ah good times, good times......
Lycanthromancer 02-18-08, 08:06 PM	This shouldn't be WoW on a server with PvP turned on. Playing two players/groups against each other can be fun, but it isn't fun at all if you get killed just because someone wants to get their jollies off. Oh, and a point I can make: Start getting scrolls of clone and astral projection. Even if you die, you won't. If you have someplace safe to reconnoiter that the munchkin doesn't know about (even if it's in a portable hole or Heward's handy haversack), hide your real body and your clones there, and have a contingency/teleport set to go off to transport your real body there if you really die, so the lollipop guildmember can't steal your stuff. See the pantheon-killing wizard in my sig for more evil tricks.
Tedronai 02-18-08, 09:17 PM	When a player cheats for the purpose of PvP, there is a simple solution. The other players do the same (and when they cheat in other situations, the same solution works for the DM). He's ignoring ECL, ML limits, and DC calculations? You roll nothing but 20s, and have HP higher than an Overdeity. ONLY when dealing with him, of course (and anyone allied with him in his endeavors). OR, just wait until everyone else is asleep, grab your Heavy Pick, and CdG his ass. ... And him, of course, don't want that donkey to be lonely...:P
InkBlot 02-18-08, 11:58 PM	Hes also the DM of another campaign Im in, which is a Hackmaster campaign ... Hackmaster (http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_26)!? That kind of explains it. The whole point of (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12222.phtml) Hackmaster is to get the players to cheat, to pit them against the DM, and make a game out of the metagaming.
X0_Lt_0X 02-19-08, 12:03 AM	Hackmaster (http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_26)!? That kind of explains it. The whole point of (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12222.phtml) Hackmaster is to get the players to cheat, to pit them against the DM, and make a game out of the metagaming. It wouldn't surprise me
CrimsonDeath 02-19-08, 07:23 AM	When a player cheats for the purpose of PvP, there is a simple solution. The other players do the same (and when they cheat in other situations, the same solution works for the DM). He's ignoring ECL, ML limits, and DC calculations? You roll nothing but 20s, and have HP higher than an Overdeity. ONLY when dealing with him, of course (and anyone allied with him in his endeavors). I didn't want to suggest cheating, but it's particularly easy when your opponent's primary (perhaps only) mode of attack is Mind Thrust.
King_Of_Blood 02-19-08, 03:04 PM	Maybe you should introduce him to a certain level 1 ardent if he ends up killing you before you can stop him...