Post/Author/DateTime	Post
echoota 07-04-07, 01:03 AM	I had been contemplating getting ego whip, however when looking through monster stats the creatures that have really low charisma, such as constructs and undead, are immune to the power since it is a mental attack. It seems like the power might be useful at higher levels as you could generate enough dice to perhaps drop something in a turn, but otherwise it looks like it would take several turns to chew away at most charisma scores. What's been the most surprising with this research is how charismatic many monsters are! It seems like most of them are above 10, which makes the ego whip seem even less potent.
InkBlot 07-04-07, 01:48 AM	It's good for humanoid enemies with levels in classes like Barbarian or Fighter, who normally dump Cha and have poor Will saves.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-04-07, 01:50 AM	It's a good substitute for the shortage of save-or-die powers. Ego whip is a very good way to quickly drop weak-minded opponents.
Polaris 07-04-07, 01:58 AM	I will probably get ripped for this, but Egowhip is badly designed and probably overpowered. No spell-attack that does ability damage, and especially not one that can be scaled upwards, should automatically do damage...yet Ego whip does (save for half). The easy fix is a save for none. -Polaris
CrimsonDeath 07-04-07, 02:34 AM	Didn't we just have a thread about Ego Whip?
AntiDjinn 07-04-07, 03:47 AM	While you would certainly like to drop an opponent in one shot, it may not always be efficient to do so. As noted, Ego Whip always does some Cha damage, even if the save is made. So don't get caught up in the most or even the average Cha damage you will do; the strength of this power is that it has a minimum damage that always gets through unless the subject is immune to mind-affecting or Cha damage (cleric domain ability in BoED). It is to your advantage, in fact, to always assume the subject will make the save and plan accordingly. If your party can keep a monster off of you, you can nickel and dime the Cha of just about any opponent to zero eventually. Consider that the first d4 of Ego Whip costs 3 points, but each additional costs 4. Manifesting the power at its base cost on 2 consecutive rounds costs you 6 points and does at least 2 points of Cha damage (if the subject makes both Will saves, uses Damp Power each time, etc.). Augmenting it to 2d4 all at once costs you 7 points and the minimum Cha damage remains 1 (if the single Will save is made and you roll two 1's, or the subject uses Damp Power and also makes the save; the minimum is half your result with no per dice min.). And if the subject is using Damp Power doing the multiple mini whip forces him to pay for the defense against each d4 instead of once for a megawhip. One thing to never forget: The bane of Ego Whip is not Damp Power, it is Redopsi. Another good reason to go with a 1 dice whip: It is a test poke for a reflection effect. If you launch a 5d4 empowered Ego Whip and it bounces back at you, suddenly that Will half thing won't seem like such a good thing.
The_Ditto 07-04-07, 08:25 AM	Where I see Ego whip most useful (and where I typically used it) was against any creature with a TON of hp ... (preferablly also a low will save .. but meh) 1 example we encountered was an enemy druid with a fiendish T-Rex for a companion ... In the first round, the T-rex charged/bit/grappled our main frontline fighter, and it was pretty clear he was being swallowed next round ... ... as a Wilder, I surged an Ego Whip and 1-punched the t-rex .. much to everyone's delight (and the DM's and druid's ire .. ) hehe :tiphat:
ck2001wendt 07-04-07, 08:38 AM	Ego Whip works against Clerics, Paladins, Sorcerers, Favored Souls, Spell Thiefs, creatures with spell-like abilities, and a host of other Cha-based casters. Until Mind Blank comes into play, you might not be able to knock a caster out in one turn, but you will be able to shut down their casting, lower the saving throw on their abilities, or lower their saving throws (Hexblades, Paladins).
Rhonin the Big 07-04-07, 12:34 PM	My LE Kalshatar Telepath was assisting his allies in defeating a lycanthrope T-wrecks. I dropped him in 2 rounds at level9 using only ego whip, it even got me off the hook for assisting in murder because my allies broke into his hotel room and while all I did was drop a monster who was attacking my allies it was the werewolf (whom I did not recognize as my ally because I never saw his transformed state) who actually commited the murder. Rhonin the Big <3 teh 3go wHIpz.
TalonofTiamat 07-04-07, 01:33 PM	I just recently got ego whip (at level 16) and I have taken down a raging half red dragon half ogre barbarian, and a Great Wyrm Fang Dragon. My original intent with the dragon was to just get rid of some of it's spellcasting, but then it killed 2 tanks in the party, so it was pretty much all on me at that point.
Kradlo 07-04-07, 01:42 PM	I've GMed for a psion character with ego whip, and found it to be extremely effective. If anything, the fact that it deals ability damage even if a save is made is very nasty. Do notice that a failed save also results in the victim being dazed for one round. I'm contemplating making the save "Will negates" rather than "Will half." I need to give the matter more thought, particularly by comparing the power to effects of a similar level. Ego whip is particularly effective against monsters with high hit dice but poor Charisma, like fiendish centipedes.
Lokiyn 07-04-07, 05:11 PM	Does no one in these game worlds posess even the most simple of globe spells?
kyeudo 07-04-07, 05:27 PM	People forget them, since Arcane Magic usualy hucks spells higher than the globes protect from.
pud 07-04-07, 05:42 PM	Does no one in these game worlds posess even the most simple of globe spells? Yes, my fiendish centipedes always have it.
Lokiyn 07-04-07, 05:54 PM	It just seems that in a world with psionics, most casters would have figured out that roughly 90% of the mainstay psionic powers can be stopped with a single spell and would of course use that, expecially things like dragons, sorcerers, and wizards who have routine acess to the spell. But of course, i assume a world in which a token understanding of logic is in play, and snowballs don't complain that hell is too damnned hot without at least looking at some sort of way of keeping cool. In other words, i don't complain that fireball is too hot because cold subtypes get destroyed, i don't complain that Cone of cold is to powerful because it mops the floor with fire subtypes, and i don't use specific monsters with a specific weakness to compare the power levels of powers and spells. fully 27% of all monsters in dnd are flat out immune to ego whip by virtue of type, and in most games types like undead are fairly common enemies, dragons do more than sit in a cave and watch people approach, and kobolds with sound tactics are source of tpks, as the boring bash bash bash players are lured into traps and ambushes. Oh, and npc's are played real enough to retreat when thier life is in danger rather than fight to the death.
Tinari 07-04-07, 06:24 PM	Honestly, being defeated through loss of mental ability scores seems awkward. If you're intelligence is being drained off, you'd be too stupid to realize it before it's too late, most likely. If you're wisdom is being siphoned away, you'd not act on what you know before it's too late, most likely. If you're charisma is being whipped apart, you'd just probably just start getting a bit more nervous and lose some self-confidence. Maybe you'd run, maybe.
Lokiyn 07-04-07, 06:55 PM	Actually now i'm seeing a Sorcerer with a meticulously Painted Figure sewen to the sleeve of his robe. This portrait would be the result of many weeks of "Scientific Testing" involving Bars, and drinks containing random objects in oddly shapped bottles. The Sorcerer Has the Portrait and a note sewn on that reads as follows. "If you would take this person home, and you haven't been drinking, flee" ... Self note make an ego whip motivator to this.
AntiDjinn 07-05-07, 12:56 AM	If you're charisma is being whipped apart, you'd just probably just start getting a bit more nervous and lose some self-confidence. Maybe you'd run, maybe. If you are of a class that uses Cha to cast (bard, sorcerer, wilder, others) then there is no maybe about what happens to you: You apply the lowered score to the DC of your spells and powers. The lowered Cha mod will also affect a paladin's saving throws. If you are of a class that doesn't use Cha for any game mechanics and are not trying to use a Cha-based skill, then essentially nothing happens to you until your Cha is zeroed. A fighter with Cha 1 functions as well as one with Cha 20 unless he is trying to use a social skill on an NPC. When your Cha drops to zero, page 290 of the DMG spells out exactly what happens: "Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, comalike stupor, helpless." Once your self-perception has dropped to the point where you can no longer even distinguish self from non-self you are pretty much hosed.
Mesiolan 07-05-07, 01:58 AM	I used Ego Whip at 6th level for 2d4 vs. a Sor 7th. He failed the save and suddenly got dropped from CHA 17 to CHA 10. He lost access to all his spells. The look in the DM's face was fully worth the 7pp and the Overchannel damage.
AntiDjinn 07-10-07, 01:51 AM	btw: Complete Champion introduces a couple of new defenses against Ego Whip. The spell Soul Ward (cleric 2, druid 2) absorbs stat damage. It lasts 1 minute/caster level or until the points are used. Cast it once and the subject gets 5 points of defense for one mental stat, cast it a second time and it is 8 points for each of two, cast it a third time and you get 10 points of warding for all three. So one casting of this second level spell will on average blow off two castings of Ego Whip unaugmented. There is also a reserve feat called Mitigate Suffering. As long as you know at least one spell that can heal or restore ability damage you can grant temporary ability restoration to yourself or another by touch (standard action). The amount restored is 2 plus the level of the highest spell you know that restores ability damage. These points last 10 minutes before vanishing. You can use the ability again on the same subject so long as you meet the reserve requirement and spend a standard action to touch them. For example, a cleric knows Restoration, he may by touch restore 6 points of Cha damage (or any other single stat). After 10 minutes these temp points fade and the subject returns to its damaged state, but the cleric can do this as many times as he likes so long as he doesn't cast the Restoration spell and has an action to burn.
Polaris 07-10-07, 01:57 AM	AntiDjinn, That's interesting, but it's sort of like those in 3.0 that argued that because potions of filtering were available automatically made 3.0 Miasma (no-save and die) balanced. I cry FSBNNR. The correct solution IMHO is to change the ego-whip save to: save negates. No spell should automatically do attribute damage since it effectively replaces hit points with a given attribute score. -Polaris
TheCobra 07-10-07, 03:16 AM	The power does seem little ridiculous when used by a large number of psions together. Twelve 7th-level psions are only encounter level 14. Assuming no failed saves, they can deal 30 points of CHA damage per round on average. That should be enough to take out 2-3 PCs in the first round.
Sarlax 07-10-07, 03:32 AM	The power does seem little ridiculous when used by a large number of psions together. Twelve 7th-level psions are only encounter level 14. Assuming no failed saves, they can deal 30 points of CHA damage per round on average. That should be enough to take out 2-3 PCs in the first round. Or they could just each manifest Energy Ball and deal 84d6 damage (save for half!), averaging to 189 damage if all saves are made against Cold (to negate Evasion).
Polaris 07-10-07, 03:39 AM	Or they could just each manifest Energy Ball and deal 84d6 damage (save for half!), averaging to 189 damage if all saves are made against Cold (to negate Evasion). Not quite accurate and you are missing the point. Mass Energy resistance is only a third level spell, so it seems reasonable to assume that parties of this level will have 10-20 points of ER (or other forms of energy damage negation). So what you'd really have is 12 7d6 energy balls with each energy ball doing 24.5 points of cold without a save and 12.25 with a save. Assuming the party has some form of energy protection (likely), you are at best doing 2.25 points of damage and likely doing nothing if the saves are made. Egowhip has no such common defense. Futhermore, at 20th level (for example) a lot of characters could take 189 points of damage (assuming they weren't flat out immune to the energy type). The same 20th level party would be creamed by the massed Ego whips because attributes don't go up (at least not very much) while hit points do. -Polaris
Mesiolan 07-10-07, 03:39 AM	I've seen a sig on these boards somewhere. It's about the ego whip augmented to 18d4. I asked myself, how do you do that before lv 21? OK, 15pp for 4d4, empowered to 17pp/6d4, twinned to 23pp/12d4. Reduce cost with a CopPsi feat (name?) by 2pp (or more if taken 2+ times). Metapsionic costs reduced to zero = four times the feat required, so the augment could go for 23pp/6d4, empowered/twinned for 2x 9d4 = 18d4. Save DC 22+INT. Requires overchannel or wild surge, psi-crystal & containment, empower, twin, and FOUR times the CPSi feat. You fix four feats to a mind-affecting power...?
TheCobra 07-10-07, 03:51 AM	Or they could just each manifest Energy Ball and deal 84d6 damage (save for half!), averaging to 189 damage if all saves are made against Cold (to negate Evasion). See what Polaris said. On the other hand, characters often don't walk around with energy resistance on. Twelve energy balls would wipe out most of the 14th- and 15th-level characters in one of the campaigns I'm running. The two who'd probably survive would be devastated by just a few uses of ego whip, though. Characters have different strengths and weaknesses. The same 20th level party would be creamed by the massed Ego whips because attributes don't go up (at least not very much) while hit points do. That would be true, but most 20th-level characters have mind blank, which stops ego whip completely.
AntiDjinn 07-10-07, 04:19 AM	That would be true, but most 20th-level characters have mind blank, which stops ego whip completely. By 20th level it is possible to run into Mind Blank fairly frequently, but it is by no means certain that every character or monster will have it up 24/7. A 20th level fighter can't cast the spell. By 20th level a wizard would have to set aside all his 8th level spells to cast MB on all of a 4 member party every day. Do many wizards do this? If the party is larger than 4, he may have to use 9th level slots. Practically, characters don't bother keeping the effect active on every party member, unless they are hiding from a scryer. When it comes to mind-affecting effects, the only ones who need to have immunity up are the casters who can remove or counter mental effects in the rest of the party. Generally, at near epic levels the primary casters will have enduring defense against this type of attack: MB, Repopsi/Spell Turning, or a Contingency against incapacitation. Any stat damage that might be done to the rest of the party they can fix if they have taken steps to protect themselves.
TheCobra 07-10-07, 04:29 AM	By 20th level a wizard would have to set aside all his 8th level spells to cast MB on all of a 4 member party every day. Every other day, with Extend Spell. (I suggest using the rod.) Also, some clerics can cast the spell.
Polaris 07-10-07, 08:55 AM	Practically, characters don't bother keeping the effect active on every party member, unless they are hiding from a scryer. When it comes to mind-affecting effects, the only ones who need to have immunity up are the casters who can remove or counter mental effects in the rest of the party. Generally, at near epic levels the primary casters will have enduring defense against this type of attack: MB, Repopsi/Spell Turning, or a Contingency against incapacitation. Any stat damage that might be done to the rest of the party they can fix if they have taken steps to protect themselves. The problem though (in the case of Ego-Whip) is that the power can easily kill even 20th level characters not protected even if they make their saves by the end of combat (at least effectively so) which may force the caster to flee or worse. Don't get me wrong; I have nothing against attribute damage. I have a LOT against automatic attribute damage. -Polaris
runestar 07-10-07, 09:16 AM	By 20th level a wizard would have to set aside all his 8th level spells to cast MB on all of a 4 member party every day. Do many wizards do this? If the party is larger than 4, he may have to use 9th level slots. It is not uncommon for players to buy pearls of power to use on the wizard in return for buffs cast on them. For example, a rogue wishing a wizard to cast greater magic weapon on his rapier should get a pearl of power3, so that this buffing does not end up taxing the mage's resources too much. Each player can simply invest in a pearl of power 8 to "compensate" the wizard for casting mindblank on them. Or extend mindblank (such that it now lasts for 2 days), cast it on everyone, then rest again to regain all your spells. But I do not agree that it should be will:negates. Will: half is fine by me. Compare ego whip to a save-or-die power. For the later, the target dies if he fails his save, and nothing happens if he succeeds. Since ego whip does not kill off the foe outright (and only has a debilitating drawback on a very select list of foes), it should do something even if the foe makes his save. Basically, lower potential return should be compensated with a higher chance of something happening.:)
Polaris 07-10-07, 09:22 AM	But I do not agree that it should be will:negates. Will: half is fine by me. Compare ego whip to a save-or-die power. For the later, the target dies if he fails his save, and nothing happens if he succeeds. Since ego whip does not kill off the foe outright (and only has a debilitating drawback on a very select list of foes), it should do something even if the foe makes his save. Basically, lower potential return should be compensated with a higher chance of something happening.:) So you think automatic attribute damage is fine? I think not. Even save or dies doesn't deal the attribute damage automatically. Either it works or it doesn't. At very high levels, you ultimately don't even lose Con or a level (just 10,000 gold). OTOH, attribute damage is a huge deal and automatic attribute damage completely bypasses hit points which is normally a character's primary line of defense. Automatic attribute damage is completely out of line for a power at any level, much less one of only second level! We had the same problem with 3.0 Miasma which because of the suffocation rule and because the editors didn't remember to include: Fort Negates had a similiar sort of balance issue. -Polaris
Fleem 07-10-07, 09:32 AM	I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Cloudkill. There's your example of an ability damage spell with save for half. I haven't gotten around to reading through the spell compendium (or most of the higher level core spells), so there very well may be others out there. Also, Intellect Fortress is another handy defense against ego whipping.
runestar 07-10-07, 09:50 AM	So you think automatic attribute damage is fine? I think not. Even save or dies doesn't deal the attribute damage automatically. Again, I would say that it depends. With save-or-die powers, you either die or you don't. With ego whip, its effect can be quite variable depending on who you affect. But looking back, I understand your worries, that even on a successful save, ego whip might still do enough cha damage to do in a character with an average cha score (fighters typically have only 8-10 cha after all). Perhaps it should be made will:negates after all. But if so, then the cha damage it deals should be increased, to keep it in line with spells like dominate person/monster, don't you think? At very high levels, you ultimately don't even lose Con or a level (just 10,000 gold). And past lv7, it just costs you 100gp to negate the cha damage from ego whip by having the cleric cast restoration. Much cheaper and more efficient than 25,000gp for a true res, if you ask me.
Polaris 07-10-07, 09:59 AM	I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Cloudkill. There's your example of an ability damage spell with save for half. I haven't gotten around to reading through the spell compendium (or most of the higher level core spells), so there very well may be others out there. . I don't like cloudkill either for the same reason. However: 1. Cloudkill is 3 levels higher. 2. Con scores are generally higher than Cha scores [Ego whip is a double-whammy....if the target has a high CHA, then the CHA damage directly hurts the capability of the target.....if the target is not hurt by the Cha loss directly, then it does so much Cha damage (or can) that it take him out of combat even on a successful save.] 3. Even though it's damage, cloudkills don't 'stack' in the same way that Ego whip does. Either you are in the cloud in which case you take Con damage, or you aren't (in which case you don't) and most characters move fast enough to get out of the area of effect of the cloud. 4. It's easier to counter. A fourth level spell (Neutralize Posion with a 10min/level duration) or even a general immunity to poison (such as plant-type, 9th level druid, etc) are completely immune. It takes an eighth level spell to completely counter Ego Whip (Mind Blank) Runestar, I wouldn't be opposed to more cha damage as long as the power was Will negates. However, given it's already augmentable, it shouldn't be very high. It is only a second level power after all..... -Polaris
supermonk7 07-10-07, 10:09 AM	Polaris, it takes a fourth level spell to completely negate and block ego whip. The spell? Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. No matter how high you augment the power, it remains a 2nd level power, which is blocked by the globe. You can be virtually immune to the effects as a seventh/eighth level caster, not a fifteenth/sixteenth level caster as you suggest with mind blank. Sure, you might take damage the first round from ego whip if you do not know you are going up against a psion, or are surprised. But round 2? LGI goes up (from a scroll if you really have to, and a good rogue or warlock can do that easily enough) and the power goes away. Heck, you can even try to cast the spell from a scroll with UMD well before you could ever memorize it, so long as you buy the scroll. Arminas tar Valantil Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
Polaris 07-10-07, 10:12 AM	Polaris, it takes a fourth level spell to completely negate and block ego whip. The spell? Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. No matter how high you augment the power, it remains a 2nd level power, which is blocked by the globe. You can be virtually immune to the effects as a seventh/eighth level caster, not a fifteenth/sixteenth level caster as you suggest with mind blank. Arminas tar Valantil Grand Master of the Ebon Rose Nope. It takes Mind-Blank. You can't cast globe of minor invun on another person. That's it's fatal flaw in this particular case. -Polaris
runestar 07-10-07, 10:13 AM	Are we talking about this from the POV of a PC psion attacking npcs with ego whip, or from the POV of an NPC psion assaulting the PCs with ego whip? Because I doubt it is feasible for every npc to be lugging around scrolls of LGI in anticipation of such an attack, must less activate it properly...:confused:
ck2001wendt 07-10-07, 10:37 AM	Nope. It takes Mind-Blank. You can't cast globe of minor invun on another person. That's it's fatal flaw in this particular case. -Polaris No...you cast it on yourself. You're immune to Ego Whip at 7th level if you've memorized the spell. Additionally, anyone within the globe becomes immune to the spell. Any Psion worth their salt takes Mind Blank (Personal) at 13th. Psions should never take Mind Blank, because it's not their job to buff their companions.
Scion of Coldshard 07-10-07, 11:09 AM	You can't cast globe of minor invun on another person. That's it's fatal flaw in this particular case. The lesser globe has a 10' radius, more than one person can be inside of that typically ;)
Sarlax 07-10-07, 01:51 PM	Not quite accurate and you are missing the point. Mass Energy resistance is only a third level spell, so it seems reasonable to assume that parties of this level will have 10-20 points of ER (or other forms of energy damage negation). Not quite accurate and you're missing the point. Even if you assume that PCs will always have this 10 min/level spell up on everyone, your dozen psions can just mix their energy types. If permanent energy resistance 10 is this common, the psions will anticipate it and divide themselves to have three for fire, three for cold, three for lightning, and three for sonic. Once they see what didn't work, those three split to deal the energy forms that do hurt the party. The point is that any analysis of a creature with many abilities (whether spells, psionics, SLAs, etc.) breaks down when you throw in a dozen such monsters. In other words, the CR system doesn't handle large numbers of creatures very well. The example demonstrates not the Ego Whip is broken but that a character can't handle 12 actions worth of targeting in a single round because they don't have any opportunity to react. You could just as easily "prove" that Astral Construct is broken by having each psion manifest that every round and have their superswarm hit the party, or hit them all with Crystal Shard and divide the average 294 damage to wipe out a couple characters a round, etc. In a more reasonable encounter, such as one with smaller numbers of psions (with a higher level, perhaps, the kind of encounter D&D is designed to handle), Ego Whip can be threatening, but it won't kill the party.
TheCobra 07-10-07, 02:48 PM	In other words, the CR system doesn't handle large numbers of creatures very well. True. Even a bunch of commoners can do decent damage with slings, thanks to the rule that a 20 always hits. A thousand such commoners deal an average of 125 points of damage per round even when 500 feet away.
Zemyla 07-13-07, 11:31 AM	Any Psion worth their salt takes Mind Blank (Personal) at 13th. Psions should never take Mind Blank, because it's not their job to buff their companions. Unless they're illithid slayers, in which case they eventually get nigh-permanent immunity to mind-affecting abilities.
runestar 07-13-07, 10:44 PM	Would ego whip be too weak if it was now will: negates? I mean, at high enough lvs, say a psion20 use overchannel to manifest a maximized ego whip for 20 cha damage on a failed save. If the target fails his will save, he might be comatose, or he might still be in the game, depending on his stats. But if he makes his will save, nothing happens. Compare this to other will-save spells such as dominate. On a successful save, nothing happens as well. But on a failed save, it is automatically "I win". No having to worry if you have drained enough cha or not - the victim is on your side regardless. On an expected value basis, there would be no reason to use ego whip whatsoever. It definitely should allow at least some effect even on a successful save, IMO.
CrimsonDeath 07-13-07, 11:10 PM	Maybe Will Partial but the save negates the damage, and the daze is what happens either way? Or is autodaze too powerful for a level 2 spell?
runestar 07-13-07, 11:34 PM	Maybe Will Partial but the save negates the damage, and the daze is what happens either way? Or is autodaze too powerful for a level 2 spell? Potentially too strong. Few monsters are immune to daze, even at higher lvs. A psion could effectively lock down a balor or tarrasque just by sending 3PP each round. My rationale is that you should always be working under the assumption that your foe would be making his save (if he failed his save, why the heck are you using ego whip, instead of another will-save spell which actually does something?). It is because you are assured by the fact that even when he makes his save, something still gets through. Thus, if you halve the cha damage dealt, it doesn't seem so powerful now, does it?:)
Polaris 07-14-07, 01:08 AM	Potentially too strong. Few monsters are immune to daze, even at higher lvs. A psion could effectively lock down a balor or tarrasque just by sending 3PP each round. He can now with Ego-whip the way it's written. In fact he can BETTER than he can with dominate person (augmented) because with dominate person you essentially (esp in a combat situation) get one crack at it. My rationale is that you should always be working under the assumption that your foe would be making his save (if he failed his save, why the heck are you using ego whip, instead of another will-save spell which actually does something?). It is because you are assured by the fact that even when he makes his save, something still gets through. Which means a second level power might not be the best choice. Nothing wrong with that. Thus, if you halve the cha damage dealt, it doesn't seem so powerful now, does it?:) Yes it does. That's because you can spend 3psps per round and be pretty assured of taking down anything (unless outright immune). It's not very sporting by the way to compare a 2nd level power to a fourth level power. Second level powers (even augmented) should never be save or dies (or save or be hosed). -Polaris
Sarlax 07-14-07, 11:40 AM	That's because you can spend 3psps per round and be pretty assured of taking down anything (unless outright immune). 3 PP = 1d4 Cha damage. You can roll 1,2,3,4. Max 4 damage on a successful save. Not anything like a save or die. Average damage is 2.5. Now, assume the save as runestar said. You halve the roll on the damage (but minimum one), so your potential damage results are 1,1,1,2. Average damage 1.5, but you really have a 75% of just doing 1 point. How many monsters are you really going to take out? This isn't a save or die effect, even augmented. It only spells doom for certain PCs who, for some reason, aren't supported by a balanced-party, for monsters who are entirely built around their high Charisma score (I can't think of any offhand), and for very low Charisma monsters with which DM has chosen to fill his entire campaign world.
Polaris 07-14-07, 06:58 PM	Sarlax, You are missing the point. I never said Ego-whip was "save or die" (although it is when you include the daze effect). What I said was that you could take out a monster single handedly with this power....and you can. What you are ignoring is that this is 1 or 2 points of charisma damage which means it stacks and when the opponent reaches zero, you've essentially killed him. That's way out of line for a second level power (or really any power) because it replaces a creature's hit points with his charisma stat. -Polaris
Rhonin the Big 07-14-07, 08:53 PM	Sarlax, You are missing the point. I never said Ego-whip was "save or die" (although it is when you include the daze effect). What I said was that you could take out a monster single handedly with this power....and you can. What you are ignoring is that this is 1 or 2 points of charisma damage which means it stacks and when the opponent reaches zero, you've essentially killed him. That's way out of line for a second level power (or really any power) because it replaces a creature's hit points with his charisma stat. -Polaris So? You can take out a monster with energy powers, or enough poison and a beach towel; doesn't mean energy powers, poison or beach towels are overpowered.
Lycanthromancer 07-14-07, 10:03 PM	Hmm. A psychic warrior/beach-bum who uses his swim trunks, surfboard, suntan lotion, and beach towel as weapons (substitute psionic powers and reflavor as necessary). This could put a whole new spin on truenaming psionics.
InkBlot 07-14-07, 10:29 PM	Swim trunks, surfboard, suntan lotion, and beach towel == Entangling ectoplasm, call weaponry, grease, and entangling ectoplasm?
Polaris 07-14-07, 10:49 PM	So? You can take out a monster with energy powers, or enough poison and a beach towel; doesn't mean energy powers, poison or beach towels are overpowered. Not quite right. In the first place, there isn't any resistance to Ego-whip. Enegy resistance is quite common. In the second place, energy powers (and psionic beach balls) target HIT POINTS which is the primary defense (after mid-level) of the defending character. Hit Points go up per level rather noticably....that's why it's called Hit-Dice. OTOH, attribute scores do not go up noticably with level. That's why replacing hit-points with an attribute score (which is what Ego Whip does) is broken. The power needs to be Save: Will neg. That's all there is to it. -Polaris
runestar 07-14-07, 10:54 PM	You are missing the point. I never said Ego-whip was "save or die" (although it is when you include the daze effect). What I said was that you could take out a monster single handedly with this power....and you can. What you are ignoring is that this is 1 or 2 points of charisma damage which means it stacks and when the opponent reaches zero, you've essentially killed him. Yes, but how long will that take? Say I throw a creature with a low cha and will save at you, like an ogre. You are now in a mini-competition with your PCs. They are striving to take it down by reducing its hp to zero or less, while your goal is to reduce its cha to zero before they kill it (or your prior efforts would have been wasted). Apart from the possible dazing, there appears to be no synergy whatsoever. An ogre has 8cha. The only saving grace here is its daze feature. If the ogre fails its will save (+1 vs a likely dc of 15), the other PCs should be able to take it down with ease. But then, you might as well be using psionic daze. If it makes its will save, you are looking at 1-2 points of cha damage. Even if it stacks, you need 4-5 rounds to take it down. If your PCs take it down before then (and they likely will, I doubt they will willingly stand back and watch you slowly plink it to death while the ogre pounds on them), you have just wasted a whole load of PP achieving nothing. It shares the same problem with mindfog, IMO. And why I am in a pickle. It seems somewhat strong if you allow will: half (that much I concur), yet too weak if you make it will: negate. I merely want to make it balanced, or nerf it to uselessness.
Polaris 07-14-07, 11:07 PM	Runestar, OK, consider the Ogre with a +1 Will. Egowhip will likely have a save of 16 (18 prime attribute, 2nd level power) assuming no feats or other features. That means that the Ogre will fail his save on a 14 or less or 70% of the time. That means that Egowhip will do an average of 2.125 cha per use. I say per use because there are many ways to get more than one power per round. Thus it only takes 4 uses (four rounds at worst) to take down an ogre (actually it's closer to 3 and three fourths uses). Consider also that Egowhip has a 100+10/level foot range (130 minimum) and ogres don't have a ranged attack, it's dead easy to take out an Ogre by yourself before it can even come into range and you almost certainly will do it solo (as a third level party) before the rest of your party will take it out by reducing it's hit points. Here's the problem: This result is probably OK for an Ogre. However, a very similiar result will happen for any monster with even an average charisma (that isn't outright immune) regardless of hit-dice and that's not right. -Polaris Edit: I just saw the last sentence. What do you suggest then? There doesn't seem to be much room between Will negates and Will for half. Ahh....I have an idea......Perhaps the power should impose a charisma PENALTY if the save is made rather than charisma damage. That would keep the power from being totally useless by your standard, but it would also stop it from stacking up cha damage on made saves. [Using the same mechanic as ray of enfeeblement.]
runestar 07-14-07, 11:41 PM	Edit: I just saw the last sentence. What do you suggest then? There doesn't seem to be much room between Will negates and Will for half. Ahh....I have an idea......Perhaps the power should impose a charisma PENALTY if the save is made rather than charisma damage. That would keep the power from being totally useless by your standard, but it would also stop it from stacking up cha damage on made saves. [Using the same mechanic as ray of enfeeblement.] To be honest, I have no idea. I was thinking of maybe further reducing the cha damage it deals on a successful save, maybe to 1/4 or something. Or perhaps having its DC scale at a slower rate, or maybe even not at all. At low lvs, I do not foresee too big a problem with this power as the cha damage it deals is still relatively minor. The 4 rounds you spend sniping at said foe could just as easily have been 4 damage spells or something. At the end of the day, I do not see the psion being any better or worse off. But at higher lvs, the cha damage it deals potentially outstrips the rate at which the cha of your foes improve. Contrast this with direct damage or save-or-die spells, where your foes' hp and saves tend to scale out of whack due to the ever-increasing HD:cr ratio (in general). It gets worse with metapower feats (do we really need a reminder of the shivering touch fiasco?).
Polaris 07-15-07, 12:31 AM	To be honest, I have no idea. I was thinking of maybe further reducing the cha damage it deals on a successful save, maybe to 1/4 or something. Or perhaps having its DC scale at a slower rate, or maybe even not at all. Those are ideas as well. Honestly (as you note below) the problem is one of scaling. I think a number of these ideas (yours and mine) need to be playtested. That's the only way I can think of to see ultimately which idea works the best. If anyone else has ideas, I'm listening. At low lvs, I do not foresee too big a problem with this power as the cha damage it deals is still relatively minor. The 4 rounds you spend sniping at said foe could just as easily have been 4 damage spells or something. At the end of the day, I do not see the psion being any better or worse off. Actually (as I implied in the case of the Ogre above), I tend to agree. When you get the Ego-whip power, it's not so bad (except for the difficulty in recoving attribute damage which makes the power a real pain). But at higher lvs, the cha damage it deals potentially outstrips the rate at which the cha of your foes improve. Contrast this with direct damage or save-or-die spells, where your foes' hp and saves tend to scale out of whack due to the ever-increasing HD:cr ratio (in general). It gets worse with metapower feats (do we really need a reminder of the shivering touch fiasco?). Which really was my point from the beginning. It's not the damage per se, it's the fact that it's attribute damage and attributes don't scale up in the same way that hit points or saving throw modifiers do. Something to think about and playtest. -Polaris
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 02:38 AM	Hmm. A psychic warrior/beach-bum who uses his swim trunks, surfboard, suntan lotion, and beach towel as weapons (substitute psionic powers and reflavor as necessary). This could put a whole new spin on truenaming psionics. Psionic King of the Beach?
Scion of Coldshard 07-15-07, 04:28 AM	Something could be done with multiple saves. As a baseline example: Manifest Ego whip on target Two will saves If the target fails both do X If the target succeeds at only one do Y If the target succeeds at both do Z If it is daze + cha damage on two failed, half cha on one failed, and nothing on two successes then the power would be pretty weak but it might fit in better with peoples expectations. Against the ogre with 8 cha and +1 will save vs DC 15 for d4 cha damage.. 35% chance of success on each roll gives 12.25% chance of two successes, 42.25% chance of two failures, and 45.5% chance for one of each. .4225*2.5+.455*0.5*2.5=1.625 avg cha damage with a 42.25% chance of dazing
Ryuoch 07-15-07, 11:56 AM	Just my personal experience here. I tried to make Ego Whip work, at early lvls had Empower to try and eak out some extra Chr dmg; at the time it really was a case of can I get its Chr down faster then everyone else getting its HP down. Most of the time I didn’t. It’s not like you roll 4 every time. Now I did stun our enemy from time to time which can also be done in different ways (hold person, stunning fist). So at early lvls, most of the time I was just stunning (or trying to stun) the bad guy. The Chr lose was pointless And At higher lvls I had schism, Metamorphic transfer chocker (looking back not sure if it was legal?), quicken ECT... in short I could Nova me some ego whip....but then I ran in to High Magic Resistance and flat out immunity lots and lots of immunity. So now I was either just going nova to stun the BBEG or Using crystal shard instead (how come no one talks about how touch AC never seems to scale?) which was really much more effective. In the End ego whip was MUCH more effective against the party then it was to the stuff we were fighting. So much so that when we started a new campaign I asked the DM to ban it. That’s just my two cents from playing with it in game *Edit* and I’m not even going to get into how much worse it got when their were multiple opponents.
Sarlax 07-15-07, 12:55 PM	You are missing the point. I never said Ego-whip was "save or die" (although it is when you include the daze effect). What I said was that you could take out a monster single handedly with this power....and you can. What you are ignoring is that this is 1 or 2 points of charisma damage which means it stacks and when the opponent reaches zero, you've essentially killed him. Why not use, say, Crystal Shard? For the same 3 PP, you deal 10.5 damage per use (no save) and drop the ogre in 3 rounds. Or Ray of Energy (Fire/Cold) for an average of 13.5 with a good chance of dropping him with 2 uses. This damage stacks with that of the rest of the party, which is why the following statement is incorrect: That's way out of line for a second level power (or really any power) because it replaces a creature's hit points with his charisma stat. What Ego Whip really does is give the psion a battleground of his own which is separated from the rest of the PCs. In a normal round of D&D combat, there's probably going to be a melee warrior in the ogre's face dealing respectable damage (something like 2d6+5 for a greatsword, perhaps, for an average 12) and at least one ranged secondary warrior using a crossbow or bow to get something like another 4 damage per round. HP damage is probably going to kill that ogre in just 2 rounds. Assume the psion is choosing between Ego Whip and Energy Ray for 3 points each. What should he do? You've calculated that EW will deal 2.125 damage with a 70% chance to stun, which isn't bad. There's a decent chance the psion will stun the ogre, giving the whole party another round to bash him, as well as making the psion able to drop him with EW in another 2 or 3 uses. Energy Ray, however, will probably just kill the ogre outright. With the ~16 damage it's already taken, the next 13.5 will take him out. If the ogre's lucky, the party's total damage output will have been below average and he'll get to take one action before the next attack from the warrior, ranged fighter, psion, or #4 kills him for sure. This analysis is leaving out the possibility of other ogres. Additional enemies can actually make Ego Whip more attractive because of the stun effect, which deprives the group of some tactics (it becomes harder to arrange flanks, for instance). However, you still suffer the same problem as before: while you're whipping the ogre's Charisma away, you're also praying that it fails it saves. If it doesn't get stunned, it's exactly as effective as before in that it has as many actions as if you hadn't used your power at all. Instead of your party killing it in 1 round, it now takes 2, ensuring that the ogre gets to act. If the ogre fails it's save, great, you've deprived that ogre of one action, but the other ogre the rest of the party's been harming retains its action. A psion is better off dealing damage (through Crystal Shard, Energy Ray, etc.) that stacks with that of the party or by using a true save or die effect like Charm. If you calculate 30% change of a successful save, Charm is much better, as the true effect is that the ogre team loses 1 action and the PCs get 1 action, for a net gain of 2 actions. If you stun, the net gain is only 1 action (the Charisma damage is trivial because you can only drop a monster every 3/4 rounds instead). Here's the next problem with Ego Whip: what if you're 4th, 5th, or 6th-level? You're still only dealing 1d4 Charisma damage with EW vs. 4d6, 5d6, or 6d6 damage you could be doing with ER. The HP damage powers scale at every level (or alternate levels) while Ego Whip is scaling every four levels. As a way to take out monsters/deprive them of actions, Ego Whip is inferior to competitors because it usually won't allow you to pump more power points into manifesting at your full potential. It's most viable to use in battle only if you're at the level at which you just opened up another 1d4 Charisma damage.
Sarlax 07-15-07, 12:59 PM	In the End ego whip was MUCH more effective against the party then it was to the stuff we were fighting. Good point. Particularly with the expansion of specialist mage classes (warmage, dread necromancer, beguiler), there's often some Charisma-dependent guy in the party. When they come up against that intellect devourer, they may as well have just lost 5 class levels.
Polaris 07-15-07, 01:12 PM	Why not use, say, Crystal Shard? For the same 3 PP, you deal 10.5 damage per use (no save) and drop the ogre in 3 rounds. Or Ray of Energy (Fire/Cold) for an average of 13.5 with a good chance of dropping him with 2 uses. This damage stacks with that of the rest of the party, which is why the following statement is incorrect: For an Ogre, sure? I specifically didn't say that Ego Whip was broken in the specific case of the Ogre that Runestar was talking about....although at third level, attribute damage is damned difficult to get rid of and so should be used with caution.. However, the point you persistantly miss is that hit points and saving throws scale and attributes generally don't (or at least not very much). Oh and as for touch AC, I'm inclined to agree but that's a systemwide problem that's been endemic to 3E from the very beginning since it was first defined. It's an idea that doesn't work very well...but that's the topic of another thread. What Ego Whip really does is give the psion a battleground of his own which is separated from the rest of the PCs. In a normal round of D&D combat, there's probably going to be a melee warrior in the ogre's face dealing respectable damage (something like 2d6+5 for a greatsword, perhaps, for an average 12) and at least one ranged secondary warrior using a crossbow or bow to get something like another 4 damage per round. HP damage is probably going to kill that ogre in just 2 rounds. And this is a good idea how? If it was bad for psionic combat, it's still bad....and it STILL replaces hit points with charisma at least for the psion. Assume the psion is choosing between Ego Whip and Energy Ray for 3 points each. What should he do? You've calculated that EW will deal 2.125 damage with a 70% chance to stun, which isn't bad. There's a decent chance the psion will stun the ogre, giving the whole party another round to bash him, as well as making the psion able to drop him with EW in another 2 or 3 uses. Well, that depends. In the case of a CR3 encounter with an ogre, sure. Already said this. However, what if this Ogre had energy resistance (not that unreasonable....lots of ways to get energy resistant). What if you were dealing with a 17th level wizard or fighter with the same charisma (8). What then? Well then clearly (unless they happened to be immune), Ego Whip is the far better choice of the two since the opponent will run out of charisma (even with made saves) long before running out of hit points. I am snipping the rest of the Ogre stuff, because that's a low level example where ego whip is actually within shouting distance of being balanced. Here's the next problem with Ego Whip: what if you're 4th, 5th, or 6th-level? You're still only dealing 1d4 Charisma damage with EW vs. 4d6, 5d6, or 6d6 damage you could be doing with ER. The HP damage powers scale at every level (or alternate levels) while Ego Whip is scaling every four levels. As a way to take out monsters/deprive them of actions, Ego Whip is inferior to competitors because it usually won't allow you to pump more power points into manifesting at your full potential. It's most viable to use in battle only if you're at the level at which you just opened up another 1d4 Charisma damage. The hit point powers DON'T scale as well as hit-dice do. That's why damage dealing powers generally suck in DnD. For that matter DCs don't scale with saves very well either. As for Egowhip scaling: 1. It gets +d4 per four level when opponents will get (at best) +1 cha per four levels. 2. Given the much lower value of attributes, even the unmodified Egowhip can be very deadly even at high levels. In the End ego whip was MUCH more effective against the party then it was to the stuff we were fighting. So much so that when we started a new campaign I asked the DM to ban it. Of course, and the reason for this is because PCs in general rely on their items and spells (and powers) and their basic template doesn't change all that much over 20 levels. This makes PCs either extremely vunerable to Ego whip as written even at the highest levels, or flat immune. The problem is one of scaling. -Polaris
Sarlax 07-15-07, 01:51 PM	And this is a good idea how? If it was bad for psionic combat, it's still bad....and it STILL replaces hit points with charisma at least for the psion. How did I suggest it was a good idea? The point you persistently miss is that Charisma damage takes several rounds of applications before it yields any results at all. While HP damage is the same way, it is at least stacking with the other actions of the party. The ability damage dealt by Ego Whip doesn't affect the outcome of a battle except in cases designed to make Charisma important, as below: However, what if this Ogre had energy resistance (not that unreasonable....lots of ways to get energy resistant). Energy Resistance to all 4 of those energy types? Some form of immunity from the damage of Crystal Shard? Such a wide variety of resistance/immunities is less likely to be found that immunity to Ego Whip's effects. What if you were dealing with a 17th level wizard or fighter with the same charisma (8). What then? Well then clearly (unless they happened to be immune), Ego Whip is the far better choice of the two since the opponent will run out of charisma (even with made saves) long before running out of hit points. And how does the psion measure the ability scores of the target? If a high-level psion sees some guy in full-plate with a harhammer and decides to Ego Whip him, he's taking a big metagame gamble that the target is a min/maxed warrior with mimimum Charisma and a terrible Will save. How often does the psion (or even the player) have such good access to the stats of his enemies that he can act with this kind of certainty? 1. It gets +d4 per four level when opponents will get (at best) +1 cha per four levels. 2. Given the much lower value of attributes, even the unmodified Egowhip can be very deadly even at high levels. I'm curious about your numbers. Do you have a breakdown of average Charisma at each level of CR for all monsters, and does the analysis of the overpowering strength of Ego Whip account for the widespread array of immunities and typical organization (number per encounter) of those monsters? The scaling problem argument seems to be valid only with monster and NPC builds with deliberately low Charisma scores and usually as a single opponent. If the argument is going to have weight, it needs to be demonstrated that Ego Whip is the amazing tactical option it has been made out to be in a typical battle, which includes more than just high CR/low CHA fighter builds and often multiple creatures, and occurs without the players knowing the Charisma scores of each participant.
Polaris 07-15-07, 03:12 PM	How did I suggest it was a good idea? The point you persistently miss is that Charisma damage takes several rounds of applications before it yields any results at all. While HP damage is the same way, it is at least stacking with the other actions of the party. The ability damage dealt by Ego Whip doesn't affect the outcome of a battle except in cases designed to make Charisma important, as below: Who says that Ego whip damage doesn't stack with the actions of the rest of the party? True it's a Telepath-2 power, but in psionics that makes little difference. It's very possible to have an all-psionics party (with all different classes and with all the needed roles in a party filled) who all have this power (because of expanded knowledge). Heck, with UMD/UPD another character(s) (rogues, warlocks, artificers) can easily do charisma damage to with this power. Energy Resistance to all 4 of those energy types? Some form of immunity from the damage of Crystal Shard? Such a wide variety of resistance/immunities is less likely to be found that immunity to Ego Whip's effects. DR protects against crystal shard now. You did know that, right? DR is pretty common. As for energy dr, Tieflings automatically get resistances against three elemental types and they are only LA+1. And how does the psion measure the ability scores of the target? If a high-level psion sees some guy in full-plate with a harhammer and decides to Ego Whip him, he's taking a big metagame gamble that the target is a min/maxed warrior with mimimum Charisma and a terrible Will save. How often does the psion (or even the player) have such good access to the stats of his enemies that he can act with this kind of certainty? No, the psion is not taking a huge metagame gamble. At worst he's out an action and 3 PsPs. As for how often he will have access to that information, at high levels, actually quite often given divination magic, and simple intelligence (and prior experience if a recurring BBEG). I'm curious about your numbers. Do you have a breakdown of average Charisma at each level of CR for all monsters, and does the analysis of the overpowering strength of Ego Whip account for the widespread array of immunities and typical organization (number per encounter) of those monsters? Go to the DMG page 110 and look at NPC classes. Those that start with terrible charisma scores keep terrible charisma scores. It's also freaking common sense. The most a typical creature is going to have in charisma is 20 (yes there are special cases otherwise), and many have less....often much less. The problem is that EGO whip bypasses the hit-dice mechanic almost entirely and that's supposed to be the primary line of defense. The scaling problem argument seems to be valid only with monster and NPC builds with deliberately low Charisma scores and usually as a single opponent. If the argument is going to have weight, it needs to be demonstrated that Ego Whip is the amazing tactical option it has been made out to be in a typical battle, which includes more than just high CR/low CHA fighter builds and often multiple creatures, and occurs without the players knowing the Charisma scores of each participant. No. 15yard penalty. Moving the Goalposts. All I have to show is that Ego-whip is an unreasonablely good option for it's level in a common sort of situation which I have done (single opponent encounters aren't uncommon and neither are enemy-NPC encounters which as you admitted ego-whip is very strong). Also if it's specifically a PC hoser, then that's a red-flag as well and Ego whip is in fact a PC hoser. -Polaris
runestar 07-15-07, 10:35 PM	For an Ogre, sure? I specifically didn't say that Ego Whip was broken in the specific case of the Ogre that Runestar was talking about....although at third level, attribute damage is damned difficult to get rid of and so should be used with caution.. Restoration is available at 2nd lv, and the classes who have the most to lose from cha damage are typically those with good will saves as well, classes who are most likely to make their saves and take 1-2 cha damage. The only real casualty here seems to be the sorc. If you are running a standard party of fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric, no one is really going to care if their cha gets drained. Heck, the MM already has the allip at cr3, which can cause wis drain (which is arguably more lethal, and the PCs would lack traditional access to the resources needed to cure it).
Sarlax 07-15-07, 11:38 PM	Who says that Ego whip damage doesn't stack with the actions of the rest of the party? True it's a Telepath-2 power, but in psionics that makes little difference. It's very possible to have an all-psionics party (with all different classes and with all the needed roles in a party filled) who all have this power (because of expanded knowledge). Heck, with UMD/UPD another character(s) (rogues, warlocks, artificers) can easily do charisma damage to with this power. Yet again, this is building the oddball set of circumstances to build the argument. Yes, I could have 4 schismed gray elf psions using Ego Whip on both actions with leadership-derived psychic warriors using Dual Dorje on dorjes of Ego Whip. I can do the same thing with Energy Ball. Yes, yes, I remember what you said about the potential universality of energy resistance and immunity - but since you brought up what's written (with DMG examples), let's stick to that and recognize that it's not as extremely common as one might imply. DR protects against crystal shard now. You did know that, right? DR is pretty common. As for energy dr, Tieflings automatically get resistances against three elemental types and they are only LA+1. And you can only have one Astral Construct at a time, neato - unless you recognize that the Complete books are optional rather than errata. Tangential, anyway. With tieflings, you're doing the same thing you've done throughout the argument: building cases specifically to "prove" that Ego Whip is overpowered for its level. I can can "prove" that Energy Ray is overpowered similarly: "A lot of monsters have immunity to mind-affecting effects. You did know that, right? Anyway, winter wolves have the cold subtype so they take an extra 50% of damage from Energy Ray (Fire), and you can bump that up even more with Empower Power!" As for how often he will have access to that information, at high levels, actually quite often given divination magic, and simple intelligence (and prior experience if a recurring BBEG). Which divination magic reveals Charisma scores? How does intelligence reveal Charisma? Go to the DMG page 110 and look at NPC classes. Those that start with terrible charisma scores keep terrible charisma scores. 7 of the 11 classes, as written, have Charisma as a dump stat. Neglecting the possibility that not all the actual NPC population follows this model precisely, the possibility that many NPCs will have multiclassed into Charisma-dependent classes, and the possibility that the game features NPCs of classes outside of the core rules that use Charisma as a primary stat, let us continue. You've shown that somewhat more than half of the core class examples have weak Charisma scores. Let's go with level 20 for comparison, since that's when these guys get their final stat bump, as well as right about the point of maximum augmentation for Ego Whip (average 12.5 Charisma damage on 5d4). Are there any other powers of 1st or 2nd level that can also drop a number of these guys, as written, with a single blow? Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue can be taken with Charm/Mind Thrust/etc. (~DC 28) because of their terrible Will saves. Bard/Rogue/Sorcerer/Wizard can be taken with Energy Ray (Cold/Fire) because of their low HP - unless of course we buy the premise that everyone around is immune to all energy, despite them not being listed with this ability. Barbarian/Cleric/Druid/Fighter/Sorcercer/Wizard can be taken with Empowered Energy Stun (Fire) in a round or two because of poor reflexes and an average of ~125 damage, which takes out even barbarians and fighters in 2 uses. Most classes can be dropped in an instant with different powers of the same or lower level. Not only that, but several of these powers can often be augmented to affect multiple targets (or do so by default, like Energy Missile), which Ego Whip cannot do. It's also freaking common sense. The most a typical creature is going to have in charisma is 20 (yes there are special cases otherwise), and many have less....often much less. No numbers, then? At CR 20 (where it is 'scariest' for a 2nd-level power to be dropping monsters in one punch) your average augmented Charisma damage is 12.5. Options can increase this, but whatever options we bust out here apply to all the other powers as well. So, at CR 20, how many monsters have Charisma below 13, have bad Will saves, and are not immune to mind-affecting attacks? Hm, this sounds familiar: Ah yes! It's the same group of creatures you can also take out with the first-level power Charm in one shot. Well, not exactly the same, since Charm doesn't depend on them having a low Charisma score.