Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celsun 06-28-07, 01:52 PM	Would Ego Whip still be balanced if it targeted Wisdom instead of Charisma?
Fafnir 06-28-07, 03:33 PM	Would Ego Whip still be balanced if it targeted Wisdom instead of Charisma? Ego Whip is slightly overpowered as is, due to the Save: Will Half and the ability to augment it. Now, guess what would happen if it reduced, albeit indirectly, your Will save? Even with a save to negate, the augment alone and a good old Dominate following it would make it really powerful.
yarethon 06-28-07, 05:03 PM	I agree with the answer given above. also the name of the power suggests it would target your personality---> charisma seems the best way to go.
Lokiyn 06-28-07, 05:23 PM	Ego whip is not overpowered, in fact its slightly underpowered except in rare situational cases. Monster Charisma scales faster than than even a failed save charisma damaging Ego whip with augment with maximize. Now against NPC's and PC's its slightly more powerful, and then only if charisma is a dump stat. (it takes till level 17 or so to one shot a charisma 10 character with a failed save)
axenome 06-28-07, 05:41 PM	Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but... Well, you can see my siggy to find out where this one goes. Ego Whip can subdue nearly anything with a mind. And, yes, it CAN be done.
Lokiyn 06-28-07, 06:30 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12834572&postcount=1623 Incorrect, Ego whip is a second level power, It takes 3 points to manifest and deals a total of 1d4 points, or half on a save. The power takes 4pp to augment, to deal 18d4 points of charisma damage you would need to be able to spend 71 power points on a single power. Now its possible that you were using Midnight augmentation to reduce the augment cost, however due to the limits of midnight augmentation you would have only been able to reduce the augment to 2 points, meaning you still would have needed to spend 37 power points to augment the power up to 18d4 points of damage, patently impossible in most cases where the rules are being followed (at low levels) So lets look at these feats to max out ego whip. Psicrystal affinity, Psicrystal containment, Mindnight Augmentation, Bonus essentia, Maximize power, So at minimum you are spending five feats, and are forced to spend two foci, must be level 6, and are still limited by your manifester level as follows ML FS SS 5 4 2 7 8 4 9 12 6 11 16 8 13 20 10 15 24 12 17 28 14 19 32 16 So yes, you can make it strong, but rarely is it overpowered.
pud 06-28-07, 06:36 PM	Ego Whip can certainly seem overpowerful in certain encounters, obviously those opposing high CR/low Charisma monsters. It is also a bit more frightning when used against the party than by the party since ability damage is slow to recover. Overall, the limited frequency of optimal use will be scarce; enough to balance out the power.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-28-07, 06:45 PM	Ego Whip, besides taking out low CHA monsters, is also good for taking the stuffing out of enemies like sorcerors who can't cast spells of a level higher than their CHA - 10.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-28-07, 09:11 PM	Well, you can Overchannel to fire it off at 23pp, for 6d4, which is still pretty decent. If you maximise it, that's 24 points of charisma damage, which is hefty. If you actually have a double focus combo and Talented, you can even fire it off at no damage to yourself, which is even better (or be an Elan and simply soak the damage for a few pp more)
Lokiyn 06-28-07, 09:29 PM	See if you use midnight augmentation and maximize thats two Foci and you can deal Charisma damage as below PP FS SS 5 4 2 7 8 4 9 12 6 11 16 8 13 20 10 15 24 12 17 28 14 19 32 16 21 36 18 If you use maximize and overchannel/Talanted the chart looks like so. PP FS SS 5 4 2 9 8 4 13 16 8 17 20 10 21 24 12 25 28 14 Midnight augmentation is usually the best option for most powers that you can augment. For example with astral construct you can pull out astral constructs with a level equal to the pp you spend, allowing your constructor shaper to pull out Level 9 constructs, at level 10 (lost manifester level) (well depending on how you read midnight augmentation, Some people read it as a reduction to total cost, while others read is as a reduction to the power point cost of the augment.)
runestar 06-29-07, 12:55 AM	You should have to assume that the foe will always make his save, else you would actually be better off with another will-save power which actually does something on a failed save, such as dominate. Plus, it is all or nothing. Assuming the foe has no/few abilities dependent on cha, it is still as effective in combat regardless of whether it has 20cha or just 1 cha. Once you start using it, you will have to continue seeing it to the end to justify your use of it, else, all the PP you had sunk into it is as good as wasted. Also, SLAs still work even with cha 1. True, their saves suck, though the dm can opt to use those less dependent on saves. In some scenarios (like when you face an ogre barb with 6 cha), it might be worth it. But overall, I feel that it simply requires too much resources to work effectively.:(
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 04:18 AM	Hmm, it looks like it can definitely use some twinning. Has anyone tried doing that?
axenome 06-29-07, 04:40 AM	Okay, here's the run down. level 20 wilder with the schism power. SO: Feats: EK: Schism, Psicrystal Affinity, Quicken Power, Twin Power, psicrystal containment Powers: Ego Whip, Schism. Start the fight with two psionic foci. Round one: Manifest schism. Round 2: Main mind manifests a +1 level wild surge(ML 21) for a Quickened(+6 pp) Ego whip augmented to level 15. Net 4d4 Cha, your swift action. Schism Mind manifests a Wild surge for +1 level to manifest a 4d4 Ego whip. Main mind finally manifests Twin Power(+6 pp, psionic focus) with a +5 level wild surge to manifest a TWINNED Ego whip for 5d4 two times. Net total for these two egowhips: 10d4 10d4 + 4d4 + 4d4 = one brain bombed ancient red dragon before it could use its breath weapon a second time. It saved against the two weaker Ego Whips but the twinned power just mangled him. He took like 30 charisma damage or something obscene like that. We then proceeded to coup de grace it and use speak with dead to find its lair. BTW: Newer rulings actually make it possible to get even more obscene, since it has been ruled that a Schism is its own separate being and can thusly hold its own psionic focus, using the psionic meditation feat(Reduces psionic focus to a move action). The schism mind could conceivably fire off another ego whip for another 3d4 quickened. But that's just insult to injury.
Sarlax 06-29-07, 09:56 AM	Ego Whip, besides taking out low CHA monsters, is also good for taking the stuffing out of enemies like sorcerors who can't cast spells of a level higher than their CHA - 10. Tell me about it. I've been running an Illithicentric© campaign and the psionic flayers just crushed the Sorcerer and Dread Necromancer. Plus, it is all or nothing. Assuming the foe has no/few abilities dependent on cha, it is still as effective in combat regardless of whether it has 20cha or just 1 cha. Once you start using it, you will have to continue seeing it to the end to justify your use of it, else, all the PP you had sunk into it is as good as wasted. That's no different than HP. Against brutes and many classed enemies, Ego Whip can be a lot easier and faster than conventional attacks.
Bacris 06-29-07, 10:04 AM	Any dragon not immune to mind-effects is a DM asking the players "just how much cash do you want from the DragonStar ATM?"
runestar 06-29-07, 10:13 AM	That's no different than HP. Against brutes and many classed enemies, Ego Whip can be a lot easier and faster than conventional attacks. Not quite true, unless all of your other players are somehow specialized in dealing cha damage as well. If you manifested a damage power, it at least stacks with any other damage dealt by the other players. So regardless of how much or little damage you do, it counts for something. You don't have to be the one who deals the killing blow, and at least have contributed something. But with ego whip, you are like in a world of your own. You are striving to take it down by draining its cha to zero, your party fighter is trying to kill it by reducing its hp to -10. There seems to be no synergy whatsoever...:confused:
Eikre 06-29-07, 10:23 AM	That's no different than HP. ********. I can't inflict CHA damage with this axe. I can't toss a fireball and deal CHA damage. I can't deal CHA damage as the partial damage with a save-or-die. But I'm sure you don't care that the efforts of your teammates don't stack with your own.
AntiDjinn 06-29-07, 10:33 AM	Your party fighter just needs to keep the monster off of you while you Ego Whip it into catatonia. If an opponent has a 14 Cha and 100 hit points, then even if only one party member is targeting Cha it is still the faster path to victory. At higher levels the main function of the fighter is to counter the tactics of the bad guys and keep them away from the casters so they get their spells and powers off. Make sure the party cleric is standing by to restore your Cha if you ego whip something with Redopsi or Spell Turning up.
Lokiyn 06-29-07, 12:53 PM	The problem is that the Ego whip takes 2-3 rounds on average to take out a monster (cha 10 or so) Most monsters have a cha above 10 as you advance in levels At higher levels where Cha Damage reaches the point where you can deal serious damage, most opponants with an INT 10 or above, should have mind blank, or some other effect that blocks mind affecting powers. Or even something simple as Binder 1 with naberious limites the Cha effect to a single round, as charisma damage heals from 0 to 1
Sarlax 06-29-07, 01:29 PM	But I'm sure you don't care that the efforts of your teammates don't stack with your own.Try a Touch of Idiocy. Or try context: "Once you start using it, you will have to continue seeing it to the end to justify your use of it, else, all the PP you had sunk into it is as good as wasted." Ego Whip is no different than HP because once you've chosen to go down the HP road any deviation invalidates your previous actions. The problem is that the Ego whip takes 2-3 rounds on average to take out a monster (cha 10 or so). Most monsters have a cha above 10 as you advance in levels. It's also stunning them half the time. Any round a monster is stunned doesn't matter to the manifester, which means it doesn't matter much if Charisma is scaling - who cares if every +2 of CR means +1 Charisma? You just augment the power and take care of it anyway.
Bacris 06-29-07, 02:20 PM	BTW: Newer rulings actually make it possible to get even more obscene, since it has been ruled that a Schism is its own separate being and can thusly hold its own psionic focus, using the psionic meditation feat(Reduces psionic focus to a move action). The schism mind could conceivably fire off another ego whip for another 3d4 quickened. But that's just insult to injury. I'd just like to chime in on this, but "newer rulings" are not RAW. RAW itself does not specify that the schismed mind can hold its own focus, and I, as a DM and player, would never allow such an interpretation.
Fafnir 06-29-07, 03:22 PM	I'd just like to chime in on this, but "newer rulings" are not RAW. RAW itself does not specify that the schismed mind can hold its own focus, and I, as a DM and player, would never allow such an interpretation. I was already starting to see PsyWM builds with 4 focuses, so I kind of understand your point. :D
Racinante 06-29-07, 03:27 PM	BTW: Newer rulings actually make it possible... What newer rulings?
Lokiyn 06-29-07, 03:31 PM	Just to point out, the regular Ego whip looks like this when charted out numerically (average results only) Save Cance Aver Aver Rounds Rounds CR DC Save Charis Damag Fail Succeed 3 16 37% 11.7 2.5 5.0 10.0 4 16 43% 10.7 2.5 5.0 9.0 5 16 44% 11.8 2.5 5.0 10.0 6 16 50% 11.1 2.5 5.0 9.0 7 18 43% 13.0 5 3.0 6.0 8 19 42% 12.7 5 3.0 6.0 9 22 33% 12.5 5 3.0 6.0 10 22 36% 13.9 5 3.0 6.0 11 24 32% 13.0 7.5 2.0 4.0 12 24 25% 14.1 7.5 2.0 4.0 13 24 42% 15.5 7.5 3.0 5.0 14 24 50% 16.8 7.5 3.0 5.0 15 26 49% 16.2 10 2.0 4.0 16 26 53% 17.3 10 2.0 4.0 17 27 46% 18.2 10 2.0 4.0 18 27 60% 17.3 10 2.0 4.0 19 29 54% 19.5 12.5 2.0 4.0 20 29 61% 20.5 12.5 2.0 4.0 21 29 58% 22.1 12.5 2.0 4.0 22 29 74% 23.9 12.5 2.0 4.0 23 31 68% 23.0 15 2.0 4.0 Now you can max it Save Cance Aver Aver Rounds Rounds CR DC Save Charis Damag Fail Succeed 3 16 37% 11.7 0 XX XX 4 16 43% 10.7 0 XX XX 5 16 44% 11.8 4 3.0 6.0 6 16 50% 11.1 4 3.0 6.0 7 18 43% 13.0 4 4.0 7.0 8 19 42% 12.7 4 4.0 7.0 9 22 33% 12.5 8 2.0 4.0 10 22 36% 13.9 8 2.0 4.0 11 24 32% 13.0 8 2.0 4.0 12 24 25% 14.1 8 2.0 4.0 13 24 42% 15.5 12 2.0 3.0 14 24 50% 16.8 12 2.0 3.0 15 26 49% 16.2 12 2.0 3.0 16 26 53% 17.3 12 2.0 3.0 17 27 46% 18.2 16 2.0 3.0 18 27 60% 17.3 16 2.0 3.0 19 29 54% 19.5 16 2.0 3.0 20 29 61% 20.5 16 2.0 3.0 21 29 58% 22.1 20 2.0 3.0 22 29 74% 23.9 20 2.0 3.0 23 31 68% 23.0 20 2.0 3.0 Or you can Mindnight Max it Save Cance Aver Aver Rounds Rounds CR DC Save Charis Damag Fail Succeed 3 16 37% 11.7 0.0001 117,100.0 234,200.0 4 16 43% 10.7 0.001 10,670.0 21,340.0 5 16 44% 11.8 4 3.0 6.0 6 16 50% 11.1 4 3.0 6.0 7 18 43% 13.0 8 2.0 4.0 8 19 42% 12.7 8 2.0 4.0 9 22 33% 12.5 12 2.0 3.0 10 22 36% 13.9 12 2.0 3.0 11 24 32% 13.0 16 1.0 2.0 12 24 25% 14.1 16 1.0 2.0 13 24 42% 15.5 20 1.0 2.0 14 24 50% 16.8 20 1.0 2.0 15 26 49% 16.2 24 1.0 2.0 16 26 53% 17.3 24 1.0 2.0 17 27 46% 18.2 28 1.0 2.0 18 27 60% 17.3 28 1.0 2.0 19 29 54% 19.5 32 1.0 2.0 20 29 61% 20.5 32 1.0 2.0 21 29 58% 22.1 36 1.0 2.0 22 29 74% 23.9 36 1.0 2.0 23 31 68% 23.0 40 1.0 2.0 But the fact of the matter is, around level 7 or so Ego whip starts to fail. Lesser Globe of Invulnerability kicks in at 7, and its higher later. Mind blank kicks in at 13 or 15 depending on your source. Undead, constructs, Vermin, oozed, etc are flat out immune. All in all its usually better to use that power known slot on something else. unless you are going to play in a game that will allow ego whips strengths to come out, that is to say, your main enemy are non caster, non immune creatures.
axenome 06-29-07, 08:05 PM	I'd just like to chime in on this, but "newer rulings" are not RAW. RAW itself does not specify that the schismed mind can hold its own focus, and I, as a DM and player, would never allow such an interpretation. If I could remember what thread it was, I'd link it, but I can use the passages from RAW that fairly well spell it out, which were the argument used by the mod who answered the question. XPH p. 130-131 Schism power "Your mind splits into two independant parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. " XPH p. 37 Concentration skill(Gain psionic focus) "... Psionic characters can put that energy to work without actually paying a power point cost- they can become psionically focused. The DC..." RAW state that a character can have one psionic focus at a time. Schism states clearly that you are treated as though you have two characters in the same body, one of which is limited to a single standard action of a purely mental nature each round. It also specifies that the second mind draws from your power point reserve- but in no way says it allows the schism to use your psionic focus- ergo it must have one of its own to use any effect that requires the expenditure of one. And since a) Psionic meditation allows you to become psionically focused, b) splitting your mind into two parts would allow each part the memories and knowledge of the other, including the use of feats, c) according to PHB a standard action can also be used to take a move action equivalent, therefore d) a schismed mind would not only be able to acquire a psionic focus, it would HAVE to do so INDEPENDANTLY of your main mind in order to use any feature you have that requires a psionic focus, as it could not borrow one of yours. Honestly, I see more of a problem with a power that deals ability damage that scales by dice instead of by points(For instance, ray of Enfeeblement adds 1 point per 3(?) levels to the strength penalty it inflicts to a maximum of 1d6+5). I think the augment should be "Augment: For every 3 additional points you spend, this power's Charisma damage increases by 1 and its save DC increases by 1." For PP effiiciency you would manifest the power multiple times, but if you needed to take a big chunk off your opponent in one shot, you would augment it higher. And the +1 dc per 3 instead of +1 DC per 2 would be offset by the half damage dealt on a successful save. Meta psionics is already shafted compared to Metamagic in that each requires a psionic focus to use, the pp that would be used to scale a power's effect are diverted instead to affect something else(Compare a CL 11 Empowered Scorching Ray to a ML 11 Empowered Energy Ray(Not a good comparison, due to level differences, but is a better match offensively than Energy Push which has poor base damage and an unreliable secondary source of damage from the possibility of an impact at the end). Empowered Scorching Ray: 3 rays at 6d6 fire per ray. Spell Slot: Level 4.(7 pp equivalent) Empowered Energy Ray: 1 Ray at ML 11- 9pp for power, 2 for metapsionics: net total 1 ray at 13d6. Spell slot: 6 equivalent(level 6). Given the rather lessened effects of meta psionics due to their removing of PP contribution to a power(No other class loses effective damage from caster levels when applying a meta magic) coupled with the requirement of psionic focus(No other class is limited to a maximum of one metamagic per spell, nor the requirement of a full round action doing nothing but concentrating to gain the ability to apply another), all things considered letting a temporary mind have an additional psionic focus isn't that big a deal. I don't know about you guys, but I've never replaced the axle or rims because I had a flat tire. oh yeah one last note: First round of combat even a 3d4 ego whip (ML 11, average Cha damage 7.5 on a failed save, 3.75 on a success- call it a 4 damage on a successful save) can be the difference between a sorceror having access to 6th level spells and a sorceror only having access to his 2nd level spells- remember that any casters are limited to spells/powers of level (Primary attribute minus 10), and that 16 cha isn't NEARLY so effective when reduced to a 12 cha. -2 to all dcs, and chop off its upper level of spells usable. If you are that worried about mind blank use a quickened Dispel Psionics before you drop the Ego Bomb. And if you are worried STILL about the caster, hit him again and watch his casting/manifesting vanish whether he saves or not. This power is MADE to murder NPC's.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-29-07, 08:31 PM	Telepaths can destroy mind blank. Never forget that happy little detail. *hugs Shatter Mind Blank*
Zarreth_Nessad 06-30-07, 11:31 AM	Telepaths can destroy mind blank. Never forget that happy little detail. *hugs Shatter Mind Blank* Actually, it's on the Psion/Wilder list, not the Telepath list, but yeah. Not to mention that by the time you can get it, Dispel Psionics is better with it's augment anyways.
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 07:43 PM	Okay, here's the run down. level 20 wilder with the schism power. SO: Feats: EK: Schism, Psicrystal Affinity, Quicken Power, Twin Power, psicrystal containment Powers: Ego Whip, Schism. Start the fight with two psionic foci. Round one: Manifest schism. Round 2: Main mind manifests a +1 level wild surge(ML 21) for a Quickened(+6 pp) Ego whip augmented to level 15. Net 4d4 Cha, your swift action. Schism Mind manifests a Wild surge for +1 level to manifest a 4d4 Ego whip. Main mind finally manifests Twin Power(+6 pp, psionic focus) with a +5 level wild surge to manifest a TWINNED Ego whip for 5d4 two times. Net total for these two egowhips: 10d4 10d4 + 4d4 + 4d4 = one brain bombed ancient red dragon before it could use its breath weapon a second time. It saved against the two weaker Ego Whips but the twinned power just mangled him. He took like 30 charisma damage or something obscene like that. We then proceeded to coup de grace it and use speak with dead to find its lair. You are assuming (or perhaps just hoping) that you won't enervate on any of those wild surges. If your primary mind enervates on that first quickened Ego Whip then it is dazed until the end of its next turn. In that case, the standard action Ego Whip doesn't happen, and while the quicken one does go off it was basically a waste of added points and a focus (the net effect is that your primary mind threw a single Ego Whip in that round). Combos that depend on multiple wild surge manifestations look impressive on paper, but in practice they sometimes blow up in your face. If you have the feat Postpone Enervation then you can put off the daze effect, but you still lose the use of Wild Surge until you actually endure that dazed round so your follow up shots won't be so impressive.
runestar 06-30-07, 09:42 PM	You are assuming (or perhaps just hoping) that you won't enervate on any of those wild surges. If your primary mind enervates on that first quickened Ego Whip then it is dazed until the end of its next turn. There should be a feat in CPsi which negates the daze condition, so the worst which would happen is merely the loss of a few extra PP (and the feat also halves this loss, IIRC).:)
CrimsonDeath 06-30-07, 10:27 PM	You are assuming (or perhaps just hoping) that you won't enervate on any of those wild surges. If your primary mind enervates on that first quickened Ego Whip then it is dazed until the end of its next turn. In that case, the standard action Ego Whip doesn't happen, and while the quicken one does go off it was basically a waste of added points and a focus (the net effect is that your primary mind threw a single Ego Whip in that round). Combos that depend on multiple wild surge manifestations look impressive on paper, but in practice they sometimes blow up in your face. If you have the feat Postpone Enervation then you can put off the daze effect, but you still lose the use of Wild Surge until you actually endure that dazed round so your follow up shots won't be so impressive. Notice that the first two manifestations are only for +1 ML, for only a 5% chance of enervation each, no worse than the chance to roll a 1 on a d20. Over all, the plan has over a 90% chance of going off as planned. And while we're at it, the other members of a party could be dealing Charisma damage as well-- a Soulknife using Knife to the Soul, a Cleric with Charisma-draining undead minions, or a ninja with Charisma poison. Furthermore, not every member of a party is always most effective when dealing damage in combat. A battlefield-control wizard or a chain-tripping fighter work just as well with an Ego Whip psion as they do with an Energy Ray psion. Furthermore, not every encounter is against a single opponent. In fact, single opponents tend to do so poorly that a DM is generally well-advised for most combat encounters to involve multiple enemies. In such cases, there is no law that all the characters have to attack the same monster; the psion might Ego-Whip one enemy while other members of the party work on the HP of other combatants, or throw save-or-dies, or impede enemy mobility.
Lokiyn 07-01-07, 01:37 AM	Actually the plan has a hideous chance of failure, three things come into play The character is level 20 this means two things Level 20 is not a good measure of power By Level 20 anything thats a decent fight, is usually in some way immune to mind effecting by then, through items, spells, power, or nature Fully 27.7% of all monsters in Dnd are flat out immune to mind effecting through type (Undead, constructs, elementals, etc) By CR 20, most monsters have fairly good will saves, the multiple saves being made are in most cases going to suceed reducing the damage immenslyCR Func Cha Will D4(FS) D4(SS) 19 Avg 17 17 7 14 20 Avg 19 19.12 8 16 21 Avg 19.94 19.06 8 16 The average monster will need anywhere between 7d4 and 14d4 points of charisma damage to go down at that level. Now metapsionic feats can increase the potency of the power, but thats what they are designed to do. Ego whip, augmented normally, deals 15pp (4d4), 19pp(5d4), 23pp(6d4) far less than what is needed on average to bring down a monster at that CR If you want to claim something is broken or overpowered, you need to do so in the general, not the specific. Catering to a powers strengths and ignoring its weaknesses, and choosing an extreme case is not the way to gauge balance. It (axenome quote) is a misleading quote and a misleading situation, it assumes a completely defenseless target, ignores Spell resistance (28), which has a roughly 65% chance of shutting down a ML 15 Schism, Ignores the fact that the dragon should be equiped, and using its 24 int, ignores the fact that the dragon is also a level 15 sorcerer, and should have acess to the Globe spells, and infact something as basic as invisibility. I hate these draconic A.T.M. Machines that people seem to love playing dragons as. I'm not saying that ego whip, when used in the proper situation, in the proper time, with the proper tactics, can't be powerful, however, the conditions for this to occur are of such a minor avalibility that the power is hardly "overpowered".