Ego whip worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ego whip worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
flamepheonix182
11-23-07, 01:10 AM I was thinking of taking ego whip next level ( will be lvl 9, i'm going to reform it in) I was thinking that a lot of beast like dinosaurs etc... would have high HP but low hit points. but I've been looking at some stats and it seems even dumb monster seem to have charisma's of 9+ ( a lot of them even higher). and it doesnt seem to have much synergy with other ability damages.

am I missing some strategies? any elp would be appreciated
Suspect_Unusual
11-23-07, 01:32 AM It's use is basically limited to most (but not all) animals, very few other large beasts (knowledge of the ones vulnerable to it aren't going to be generally available without a helluva great knowledge check), and to charisma-based characters (Paladins, crusaders, sorcerers, bards) or those that dump charisma to the extreme (Dwarves, Orcs/Half-Orcs, especially of a class with crap will saves like Fighters, Barbarians, Warblades, etc).

No, it doesn't have synergy with other combat abilities, and yes, a creature Ego-whipped to charisma 1 is just going to be slightly more introverted when it rips out your liver and spleen. It's most useful when one or two castings can knock an opponent to 0 charisma, even with a failed save. Manifester level 11 seems to me to be the best place to start using it. Averaging 7.5 charisma damage on that 6 charisma dwarven fighter (8 base, -2 race) and knocking him comatose is pretty nice work, albeit with the equivalent of a 6th level power.
Lycanthromancer
11-23-07, 01:47 AM Don't forget about the tasty little side-effect when a creature inevitably fails its save. Also, this one is great for massive-hp critters with even fairly high Cha. If you could get this to work on the tarrasque, you'd be set. :D
Mesiolan
11-23-07, 01:53 AM Yes, it is worth it - but you need to know WHEN it's worth it. And, to be sure, you will generally need more than one manifestation to drop the foe. And you will generally have no time to do several manifestations.

One of the important things of ego whip is the "daze" effect at a failed will save. This takes out the weak will-save targets for a round.

Half orc or human barbarian or warrior class NPCs rarely have a CHA-score above 8-10, and their will-saves generally suck. If you can ego whip these guys 2-3 times, they usually drop. And if they can do nothing while dazed, you might have the luxury to manifest 2-3 times.

Meet a CR 10 dragon. Will save +8, no SR, CHA 14, casts spells as SOR 3. One augmented or empowered ego whip will delete his spellcasting for the day, so no shield, grease or mage armor to worry about. Helps your fighter more than 9d6 HP energy damage.

I have seen the DM cry when his BBEG "mindbender" made the will save against a 2d4 ego whip, but still lost access to his highest level SOR-spells.

Against bards, sorcs, and monsters, whose powers' save-DC are based on CHA, ego-whip is gold. It grants a bonus to saves for your whole party.

One thing for synergy would be to apply CHA-damage-poison to the weapons of the party.

You can use ego whip and schism very well together. At mid- to high levels, ego whip is cheap, and the manifestation of it can be concealed with conc-checks. You could use it to take down people without killing them, and pretend innocent / peaceful behavior all the while. Or aid your ally in a negotiation via damaging the CHA-skills of the other party.
InkBlot
11-23-07, 01:57 PM In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

You should be able to, in most cases, figure out if a monster would be vulnerable to ego whip with a Knowledge check DC 15 + monster HD. Rare or secretive monsters will of course require higher checks, while well known monsters should have lower checks.

Learn the call to mind power to figure out strategies for monsters you've met before. Take the Focused Skill User feat for +2 competance bonus to three common monster knowledges. Get the Collector Of Tales skill trick for a constant +5 to knowledge checks made to know about monsters. Don't forget that your considerable Int adds to Knowledge checks. You could easily have a modifier of 14 + level while focused, or 16 + level when using call to mind.
Scion of Coldshard
11-23-07, 02:32 PM Ego whip has a few problems with its use in my opinion. Generally it isnt very useful and then there are occasions where its use can be nearly broken. Typically nonsynergistic with the rest of the party as well.

Too swingy in my opinion.

I would rather get Entangling Ectoplasm personally. It tends to not upset the dm as much, it isnt as swingy, and it is a general debuff that helps the rest of the party fight off the foe.. good team power all around.
Scion of Coldshard
11-23-07, 02:35 PM Learn the call to mind power to figure out strategies for monsters you've met before. Take the Focused Skill User feat for +2 competance bonus to three common monster knowledges. Get the Collector Of Tales skill trick for a constant +5 to knowledge checks made to know about monsters. Don't forget that your considerable Int adds to Knowledge checks. You could easily have a modifier of 14 + level while focused, or 18 + level when using call to mind.

Just making sure you know... but call to mind takes a minute to manifest and gives a competence bonus ;/ I know this because a current character of mine has it.. thought it would be great, but the long manifesting time plus the named bonus type has 'really' hindered its use. At this point the only time it is useful is when I can convince the dm to let me spend an action point to turn the manifestation time into a full-round action or if we happen to 'really' need to know something and have a lot of time to sit around wondering about it without having access to any other information gathering options.
Ravens Claw
11-23-07, 02:35 PM Ego Whip is the only mind affecting power I use. Empower it and you can hurt a char based character big time or take out low to mid char creatures.

Except with char based characters it is an all or nothing power. Draining a charisma to 1 is useless. Draining it to 0 is wonderful. How quickly could you drain a hill giant, or ogre e.g. 2 rounds.

I think it is quite a good power.

Cheers
InkBlot
11-23-07, 06:22 PM Just making sure you know... but call to mind takes a minute to manifest and gives a competence bonus ;/ I know this because a current character of mine has it.. thought it would be great, but the long manifesting time plus the named bonus type has 'really' hindered its use. At this point the only time it is useful is when I can convince the dm to let me spend an action point to turn the manifestation time into a full-round action or if we happen to 'really' need to know something and have a lot of time to sit around wondering about it without having access to any other information gathering options.

I knew it takes a minute to manifest, but I had forgotten that it's a competence bonus. Anyway, it's I was assuming that if you face one kind of foe in the beginning of an adventure, then you might face more later one. For example, if you're hacking your way through a lost temple in a jungle, and you fight two baby black dragons, then you might end up fighting an black dragon mama later on. You could manifest call to mind after dispatching the babies, but before mama finds you.

Since it doesn't stack with Focused Skill User, or skill boosting items, it's utility is greatly lessened. Like most 1st level powers, it's best best for a 1st level character (before you're likely to have those other bonuses).
AntiDjinn
11-24-07, 12:44 AM It is a very strong power overall. Of note is the fact that it always does some Cha damage even if the subject makes the save. So unless the subject is immune (to either mind-affecting or stat damage) or has other supernatural or power/spell defenses, it will eventually fall if you keep whipping it.

Racial immunity to mind-affecting is not as common as people make it out to be: Undead, oozes, plants, constructs, vermin. It is not like they make up the majority of encounters (can't think of the last time I ever threw a plant monster against the party). Of note is the fact that this makes mind-affecting effects more effective in the hands of the DM: The PC does not know if the next encounter will be susceptible to Ego Whip or not, but the DM who throws an Ego Whip using foe against the party knows in advance that he is going to have an impact (unless you have an usual party racial makeup or characters who can use some form of Mind Blank). Mind Blank, and its personal form require casters or manifesters of the appropriate level; being able to use it on the party fighter means being at least 15th level. So if you are routinely running into opponents who have MB up and the game isn't at least in the high teen levels, then consider a DM change. The only way a normal PC could start out with immunity at 1st level is to use the BoED (3.0) Pleasure clerical domain.

Immunity to stat drain and damage is even rarer, and for the most part overlaps with immunity to mind-affecting. Odds are good if your target is a normal flesh and blood living being it is going to take the Cha damage.

The only other defense of note is redopsi (reflective spells, with transparency). Redopsi and Spell Turning are lower level than Mind Blank so you will reasonably run up against them much earlier in your character's career. If you are a wilder about to fling a Wild Surged, empowered, clattering handful of d4's keep in mind how much it will hurt if it bounces. I have known DMs to use Spell Turning specifically to introduce players to the concepts of restraint and caution. When in doubt, do what my group calls a "test poke" a minor power to investigate for a reflection or similar defense before cutting loose with something that you could not endure yourself (also a good idea before using an offensive power that costs XP).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
flamepheonix182 11-23-07, 01:10 AM	I was thinking of taking ego whip next level ( will be lvl 9, i'm going to reform it in) I was thinking that a lot of beast like dinosaurs etc... would have high HP but low hit points. but I've been looking at some stats and it seems even dumb monster seem to have charisma's of 9+ ( a lot of them even higher). and it doesnt seem to have much synergy with other ability damages. am I missing some strategies? any elp would be appreciated
Suspect_Unusual 11-23-07, 01:32 AM	It's use is basically limited to most (but not all) animals, very few other large beasts (knowledge of the ones vulnerable to it aren't going to be generally available without a helluva great knowledge check), and to charisma-based characters (Paladins, crusaders, sorcerers, bards) or those that dump charisma to the extreme (Dwarves, Orcs/Half-Orcs, especially of a class with crap will saves like Fighters, Barbarians, Warblades, etc). No, it doesn't have synergy with other combat abilities, and yes, a creature Ego-whipped to charisma 1 is just going to be slightly more introverted when it rips out your liver and spleen. It's most useful when one or two castings can knock an opponent to 0 charisma, even with a failed save. Manifester level 11 seems to me to be the best place to start using it. Averaging 7.5 charisma damage on that 6 charisma dwarven fighter (8 base, -2 race) and knocking him comatose is pretty nice work, albeit with the equivalent of a 6th level power.
Lycanthromancer 11-23-07, 01:47 AM	Don't forget about the tasty little side-effect when a creature inevitably fails its save. Also, this one is great for massive-hp critters with even fairly high Cha. If you could get this to work on the tarrasque, you'd be set. :D
Mesiolan 11-23-07, 01:53 AM	Yes, it is worth it - but you need to know WHEN it's worth it. And, to be sure, you will generally need more than one manifestation to drop the foe. And you will generally have no time to do several manifestations. One of the important things of ego whip is the "daze" effect at a failed will save. This takes out the weak will-save targets for a round. Half orc or human barbarian or warrior class NPCs rarely have a CHA-score above 8-10, and their will-saves generally suck. If you can ego whip these guys 2-3 times, they usually drop. And if they can do nothing while dazed, you might have the luxury to manifest 2-3 times. Meet a CR 10 dragon. Will save +8, no SR, CHA 14, casts spells as SOR 3. One augmented or empowered ego whip will delete his spellcasting for the day, so no shield, grease or mage armor to worry about. Helps your fighter more than 9d6 HP energy damage. I have seen the DM cry when his BBEG "mindbender" made the will save against a 2d4 ego whip, but still lost access to his highest level SOR-spells. Against bards, sorcs, and monsters, whose powers' save-DC are based on CHA, ego-whip is gold. It grants a bonus to saves for your whole party. One thing for synergy would be to apply CHA-damage-poison to the weapons of the party. You can use ego whip and schism very well together. At mid- to high levels, ego whip is cheap, and the manifestation of it can be concealed with conc-checks. You could use it to take down people without killing them, and pretend innocent / peaceful behavior all the while. Or aid your ally in a negotiation via damaging the CHA-skills of the other party.
InkBlot 11-23-07, 01:57 PM	In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. You should be able to, in most cases, figure out if a monster would be vulnerable to ego whip with a Knowledge check DC 15 + monster HD. Rare or secretive monsters will of course require higher checks, while well known monsters should have lower checks. Learn the call to mind power to figure out strategies for monsters you've met before. Take the Focused Skill User feat for +2 competance bonus to three common monster knowledges. Get the Collector Of Tales skill trick for a constant +5 to knowledge checks made to know about monsters. Don't forget that your considerable Int adds to Knowledge checks. You could easily have a modifier of 14 + level while focused, or 16 + level when using call to mind.
Scion of Coldshard 11-23-07, 02:32 PM	Ego whip has a few problems with its use in my opinion. Generally it isnt very useful and then there are occasions where its use can be nearly broken. Typically nonsynergistic with the rest of the party as well. Too swingy in my opinion. I would rather get Entangling Ectoplasm personally. It tends to not upset the dm as much, it isnt as swingy, and it is a general debuff that helps the rest of the party fight off the foe.. good team power all around.
Scion of Coldshard 11-23-07, 02:35 PM	Learn the call to mind power to figure out strategies for monsters you've met before. Take the Focused Skill User feat for +2 competance bonus to three common monster knowledges. Get the Collector Of Tales skill trick for a constant +5 to knowledge checks made to know about monsters. Don't forget that your considerable Int adds to Knowledge checks. You could easily have a modifier of 14 + level while focused, or 18 + level when using call to mind. Just making sure you know... but call to mind takes a minute to manifest and gives a competence bonus ;/ I know this because a current character of mine has it.. thought it would be great, but the long manifesting time plus the named bonus type has 'really' hindered its use. At this point the only time it is useful is when I can convince the dm to let me spend an action point to turn the manifestation time into a full-round action or if we happen to 'really' need to know something and have a lot of time to sit around wondering about it without having access to any other information gathering options.
Ravens Claw 11-23-07, 02:35 PM	Ego Whip is the only mind affecting power I use. Empower it and you can hurt a char based character big time or take out low to mid char creatures. Except with char based characters it is an all or nothing power. Draining a charisma to 1 is useless. Draining it to 0 is wonderful. How quickly could you drain a hill giant, or ogre e.g. 2 rounds. I think it is quite a good power. Cheers
InkBlot 11-23-07, 06:22 PM	Just making sure you know... but call to mind takes a minute to manifest and gives a competence bonus ;/ I know this because a current character of mine has it.. thought it would be great, but the long manifesting time plus the named bonus type has 'really' hindered its use. At this point the only time it is useful is when I can convince the dm to let me spend an action point to turn the manifestation time into a full-round action or if we happen to 'really' need to know something and have a lot of time to sit around wondering about it without having access to any other information gathering options. I knew it takes a minute to manifest, but I had forgotten that it's a competence bonus. Anyway, it's I was assuming that if you face one kind of foe in the beginning of an adventure, then you might face more later one. For example, if you're hacking your way through a lost temple in a jungle, and you fight two baby black dragons, then you might end up fighting an black dragon mama later on. You could manifest call to mind after dispatching the babies, but before mama finds you. Since it doesn't stack with Focused Skill User, or skill boosting items, it's utility is greatly lessened. Like most 1st level powers, it's best best for a 1st level character (before you're likely to have those other bonuses).
AntiDjinn 11-24-07, 12:44 AM	It is a very strong power overall. Of note is the fact that it always does some Cha damage even if the subject makes the save. So unless the subject is immune (to either mind-affecting or stat damage) or has other supernatural or power/spell defenses, it will eventually fall if you keep whipping it. Racial immunity to mind-affecting is not as common as people make it out to be: Undead, oozes, plants, constructs, vermin. It is not like they make up the majority of encounters (can't think of the last time I ever threw a plant monster against the party). Of note is the fact that this makes mind-affecting effects more effective in the hands of the DM: The PC does not know if the next encounter will be susceptible to Ego Whip or not, but the DM who throws an Ego Whip using foe against the party knows in advance that he is going to have an impact (unless you have an usual party racial makeup or characters who can use some form of Mind Blank). Mind Blank, and its personal form require casters or manifesters of the appropriate level; being able to use it on the party fighter means being at least 15th level. So if you are routinely running into opponents who have MB up and the game isn't at least in the high teen levels, then consider a DM change. The only way a normal PC could start out with immunity at 1st level is to use the BoED (3.0) Pleasure clerical domain. Immunity to stat drain and damage is even rarer, and for the most part overlaps with immunity to mind-affecting. Odds are good if your target is a normal flesh and blood living being it is going to take the Cha damage. The only other defense of note is redopsi (reflective spells, with transparency). Redopsi and Spell Turning are lower level than Mind Blank so you will reasonably run up against them much earlier in your character's career. If you are a wilder about to fling a Wild Surged, empowered, clattering handful of d4's keep in mind how much it will hurt if it bounces. I have known DMs to use Spell Turning specifically to introduce players to the concepts of restraint and caution. When in doubt, do what my group calls a "test poke" a minor power to investigate for a reflection or similar defense before cutting loose with something that you could not endure yourself (also a good idea before using an offensive power that costs XP).