Elan observation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elan observation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DracoPhoenix
09-06-07, 10:02 AM Is it me or could the Elan race be written up as a human, 1st level only feat?

You gain all the perks of being an Elan, take a -1 / level skill and -2 cha penalty, get a specified favoured class and effectively lose the Human's bonus feat (The base race is human after all).

:)
Tempest Stormwind
09-06-07, 10:36 AM A feat that does the following:

*Your type changes to Aberration. (note: Otherworldly)
*You gain 3 power points. (Note: psionic talent.)
*You gain three supernatural abilities, one of which boosts saves (Luck of Heroes - +4 conditional ~ +1 or +2 always), another reduces damage, and the third gives you a second-level psionic power (Precocious Apprentice)
*You suffer -2 Charisma and gain one fewer skill point per level. (Flaw)

...And that doesn't sound overpowering?

Just treat it as a race. Either that or view *all* races as first-level-only human bonus feats.
Scion of Coldshard
09-06-07, 10:52 AM A feat that does the following:

*Your type changes to Aberration. (note: Otherworldly)
*You gain 3 power points. (Note: psionic talent.)
*You gain three supernatural abilities, one of which boosts saves (Luck of Heroes - +4 conditional ~ +1 or +2 always), another reduces damage, and the third gives you a second-level psionic power (Precocious Apprentice)
*You suffer -2 Charisma and gain one fewer skill point per level. (Flaw)

...And that doesn't sound overpowering?

Just treat it as a race. Either that or view *all* races as first-level-only human bonus feats.

3 power points? The SRD says 2.. am I missing something?

Anyway though, I could see it as a feat. Especially if it gave you something like:
Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +X racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action. X is equal to half of the amount of skill points you have put into this ability.
Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by X hit points for every 1 power point she spends. X is equal to one quarter of the skill points you have put into this ability.
Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 12 hours +12 hours*X. X is equal to the amount of skill points you have put into this ability.
Elan dedication: All bonus skill points gained by race must go into one of these racial abilities.

That could be interesting. It could also be a single pool that automatically replaces the skill points gained so that at first level it would automatically be +2/+1/24h respectively and go up every so many levels.

I see the elan as pretty weak overall as a race though.

Abberation (without darkvision) I see as a slightly larger penalty than bonus.
2 pp is nice, but the feat it is being compared to I find to be a weak one. I look at this much like getting a psicrystal more or less nets you 2 feats plus an extra bonus. Not all feats are created equal.
Luck of the heroes is way, way better than resistance.
Resiliance is like a mediocre first level power.
Repletion is barely even worth the pp it takes to fuel it (food tends to be cheap, either in monetary cost or magic cost depending on how you want to get the job done).

I could also completely see all races starting as a base like human and then 'spending' your bonus feat on a 'racial package'. That racial package could also limit what skills you are able to spend your bonus skill points on.

That would make it kindof easy with reincarnate.. lose one 'racial package' feat and gain another with the skill points shifting around ;)
DracoPhoenix
09-06-07, 12:01 PM I wasn't angling to get it as a feat, merely that as the base race was human, and the net effect was to lose the bonus feat, the extra skill point and -2 cha, it just made me think of it in terms of a human 1st level feat.

:)
Scion of Coldshard
09-06-07, 12:30 PM I wasn't angling to get it as a feat, merely that as the base race was human, and the net effect was to lose the bonus feat, the extra skill point and -2 cha, it just made me think of it in terms of a human 1st level feat.

I would say that most/all LA+0 races could be written up this way. It would even make a certain odd sort of sense really.

Half races would have the option of either feat (effectively, which parent they favor) and might have the option to get LA+1 so that they had both feats, reincarnate could become easier, and so on..

But it could be seen as getting away from the d&d bases ;)
AntiDjinn
09-06-07, 02:33 PM Make it a feat and the lot of it can be traded in/out with Psychic Reformation (as in characters can become elan with just 10 minutes notice) or with retraining (which can only be done at level-up and can't be used again until next level). Make it a psionic feat and elan status can be borrowed with Feat Leech. Want either as features of your game? Just leave it a race; the game mechanics that separate a feat from a race are there for a reason.

Currently, the lowest level effect that can steal someone's race is Mind Switch, for lower level effects to let someone slough off or take on the benefits of a racial package would make the game very cartoonish. "Uh oh, here comes an aberration slayer of the Cerulean Sign. Quick! loose the elan feat until he goes away!"
Scion of Coldshard
09-06-07, 03:26 PM While it would have to be forbidden from retraining most likely I actually like the psychic reformation use.. in a magical world having magic that allows you to shift into a different race in what is likely a balanced way seems ok.. sortof like saying that you are the race you are more because people told you that you were and so you think you are than anything else..

I like it ;)

Also, alter self is a low level 'get a different races abilities' ability.
AntiDjinn
09-06-07, 04:35 PM Alter Self does not allow you to steal another's race as you could if "race" were a psionic feat with Feat Leech. You also can not use it to change another's race as you can with Psychic Reformation and race being a feat of any type.
Scion of Coldshard
09-06-07, 09:52 PM Alter Self does not allow you to steal another's race as you could if "race" were a psionic feat with Feat Leech.

Ok.. but since there is no reason to believe the feat would automatically be psionic....

Even if it was it could be easily worded such that the manifester of the feat leech power would not qualify for the feat and so could not steal it anyway.

You also can not use it to change another's race as you can with Psychic Reformation and race being a feat of any type.

And as I see changing race with psychic reformation as a 'benefit' of making them feats...

But then, you are correct that alter self would not allow you to get another races abilities 'in the same way'. Of course, you still do gain a good amount of racial abilities from the spell so you are just getting them in some other way...
sijigs
09-06-07, 11:47 PM I could also completely see all races starting as a base like human and then 'spending' your bonus feat on a 'racial package'. That racial package could also limit what skills you are able to spend your bonus skill points on.

This suspiciously is sliding back to character point system. LOL.
concerro
09-07-07, 12:18 AM Is it me or could the Elan race be written up as a human, 1st level only feat?

You gain all the perks of being an Elan, take a -1 / level skill and -2 cha penalty, get a specified favoured class and effectively lose the Human's bonus feat (The base race is human after all).

:)

Why would you want to do that instead of just being an Elan?
DracoPhoenix
09-10-07, 04:30 AM Why would you want to do that instead of just being an Elan?

I did actually say I wasn't trying to do that - just that as an Elan was derived from Humans and you lost the human bonus 1st level feat, it made me think of it as a 1st level only feat (Like Warforged 1st level armour).
Verenal
09-10-07, 03:43 PM Writing races into feats opens can of abuse.

1st level humans get two feats and both might be taken as race feats. For example, imagine a human with elf and elan race feats.

Another thing to consider is human only feats, like able learner. Normally these are not available for elans.

These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered. It's better to leave races as races.
Scion of Coldshard
09-10-07, 03:54 PM These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered.

None that you have mentioned so far are necissarily applicable ;)

I dont think anyone is saying it will happen, the idea is interesting though.
CrimsonDeath
09-10-07, 04:59 PM Writing races into feats opens can of abuse.

1st level humans get two feats and both might be taken as race feats. For example, imagine a human with elf and elan race feats.

Another thing to consider is human only feats, like able learner. Normally these are not available for elans.

These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered. It's better to leave races as races.
There's no reason that you'd be allowed multiple Race feats. Consider the Heritage feats. If you have a Heritage feat, you normally can't take another Heritage feat unless one of the Heritage feats you already have is a prerequisite for it. Race feats would obviously have a similar restriction. And since taking a Race feat would change your Race, you're no longer Human, so you can no longer benefit from feats like Able Learner.

The main reason I don't like the idea of turning a race into a feat is because of how mechanically cumbersome it is. Having distinct races is simply easier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DracoPhoenix 09-06-07, 10:02 AM	Is it me or could the Elan race be written up as a human, 1st level only feat? You gain all the perks of being an Elan, take a -1 / level skill and -2 cha penalty, get a specified favoured class and effectively lose the Human's bonus feat (The base race is human after all). :)
Tempest Stormwind 09-06-07, 10:36 AM	A feat that does the following: Your type changes to Aberration. (note: Otherworldly) You gain 3 power points. (Note: psionic talent.) You gain three supernatural abilities, one of which boosts saves (Luck of Heroes - +4 conditional ~ +1 or +2 always), another reduces damage, and the third gives you a second-level psionic power (Precocious Apprentice) You suffer -2 Charisma and gain one fewer skill point per level. (Flaw) ...And that doesn't sound overpowering? Just treat it as a race. Either that or view all races as first-level-only human bonus feats.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-07, 10:52 AM	A feat that does the following: Your type changes to Aberration. (note: Otherworldly) You gain 3 power points. (Note: psionic talent.) You gain three supernatural abilities, one of which boosts saves (Luck of Heroes - +4 conditional ~ +1 or +2 always), another reduces damage, and the third gives you a second-level psionic power (Precocious Apprentice) You suffer -2 Charisma and gain one fewer skill point per level. (Flaw) ...And that doesn't sound overpowering? Just treat it as a race. Either that or view all races as first-level-only human bonus feats. 3 power points? The SRD says 2.. am I missing something? Anyway though, I could see it as a feat. Especially if it gave you something like: Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +X racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action. X is equal to half of the amount of skill points you have put into this ability. Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by X hit points for every 1 power point she spends. X is equal to one quarter of the skill points you have put into this ability. Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 12 hours +12 hours*X. X is equal to the amount of skill points you have put into this ability. Elan dedication: All bonus skill points gained by race must go into one of these racial abilities. That could be interesting. It could also be a single pool that automatically replaces the skill points gained so that at first level it would automatically be +2/+1/24h respectively and go up every so many levels. I see the elan as pretty weak overall as a race though. Abberation (without darkvision) I see as a slightly larger penalty than bonus. 2 pp is nice, but the feat it is being compared to I find to be a weak one. I look at this much like getting a psicrystal more or less nets you 2 feats plus an extra bonus. Not all feats are created equal. Luck of the heroes is way, way better than resistance. Resiliance is like a mediocre first level power. Repletion is barely even worth the pp it takes to fuel it (food tends to be cheap, either in monetary cost or magic cost depending on how you want to get the job done). I could also completely see all races starting as a base like human and then 'spending' your bonus feat on a 'racial package'. That racial package could also limit what skills you are able to spend your bonus skill points on. That would make it kindof easy with reincarnate.. lose one 'racial package' feat and gain another with the skill points shifting around ;)
DracoPhoenix 09-06-07, 12:01 PM	I wasn't angling to get it as a feat, merely that as the base race was human, and the net effect was to lose the bonus feat, the extra skill point and -2 cha, it just made me think of it in terms of a human 1st level feat. :)
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-07, 12:30 PM	I wasn't angling to get it as a feat, merely that as the base race was human, and the net effect was to lose the bonus feat, the extra skill point and -2 cha, it just made me think of it in terms of a human 1st level feat. I would say that most/all LA+0 races could be written up this way. It would even make a certain odd sort of sense really. Half races would have the option of either feat (effectively, which parent they favor) and might have the option to get LA+1 so that they had both feats, reincarnate could become easier, and so on.. But it could be seen as getting away from the d&d bases ;)
AntiDjinn 09-06-07, 02:33 PM	Make it a feat and the lot of it can be traded in/out with Psychic Reformation (as in characters can become elan with just 10 minutes notice) or with retraining (which can only be done at level-up and can't be used again until next level). Make it a psionic feat and elan status can be borrowed with Feat Leech. Want either as features of your game? Just leave it a race; the game mechanics that separate a feat from a race are there for a reason. Currently, the lowest level effect that can steal someone's race is Mind Switch, for lower level effects to let someone slough off or take on the benefits of a racial package would make the game very cartoonish. "Uh oh, here comes an aberration slayer of the Cerulean Sign. Quick! loose the elan feat until he goes away!"
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-07, 03:26 PM	While it would have to be forbidden from retraining most likely I actually like the psychic reformation use.. in a magical world having magic that allows you to shift into a different race in what is likely a balanced way seems ok.. sortof like saying that you are the race you are more because people told you that you were and so you think you are than anything else.. I like it ;) Also, alter self is a low level 'get a different races abilities' ability.
AntiDjinn 09-06-07, 04:35 PM	Alter Self does not allow you to steal another's race as you could if "race" were a psionic feat with Feat Leech. You also can not use it to change another's race as you can with Psychic Reformation and race being a feat of any type.
Scion of Coldshard 09-06-07, 09:52 PM	Alter Self does not allow you to steal another's race as you could if "race" were a psionic feat with Feat Leech. Ok.. but since there is no reason to believe the feat would automatically be psionic.... Even if it was it could be easily worded such that the manifester of the feat leech power would not qualify for the feat and so could not steal it anyway. You also can not use it to change another's race as you can with Psychic Reformation and race being a feat of any type. And as I see changing race with psychic reformation as a 'benefit' of making them feats... But then, you are correct that alter self would not allow you to get another races abilities 'in the same way'. Of course, you still do gain a good amount of racial abilities from the spell so you are just getting them in some other way...
sijigs 09-06-07, 11:47 PM	I could also completely see all races starting as a base like human and then 'spending' your bonus feat on a 'racial package'. That racial package could also limit what skills you are able to spend your bonus skill points on. This suspiciously is sliding back to character point system. LOL.
concerro 09-07-07, 12:18 AM	Is it me or could the Elan race be written up as a human, 1st level only feat? You gain all the perks of being an Elan, take a -1 / level skill and -2 cha penalty, get a specified favoured class and effectively lose the Human's bonus feat (The base race is human after all). :) Why would you want to do that instead of just being an Elan?
DracoPhoenix 09-10-07, 04:30 AM	Why would you want to do that instead of just being an Elan? I did actually say I wasn't trying to do that - just that as an Elan was derived from Humans and you lost the human bonus 1st level feat, it made me think of it as a 1st level only feat (Like Warforged 1st level armour).
Verenal 09-10-07, 03:43 PM	Writing races into feats opens can of abuse. 1st level humans get two feats and both might be taken as race feats. For example, imagine a human with elf and elan race feats. Another thing to consider is human only feats, like able learner. Normally these are not available for elans. These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered. It's better to leave races as races.
Scion of Coldshard 09-10-07, 03:54 PM	These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered. None that you have mentioned so far are necissarily applicable ;) I dont think anyone is saying it will happen, the idea is interesting though.
CrimsonDeath 09-10-07, 04:59 PM	Writing races into feats opens can of abuse. 1st level humans get two feats and both might be taken as race feats. For example, imagine a human with elf and elan race feats. Another thing to consider is human only feats, like able learner. Normally these are not available for elans. These holes could be plugged, but those were just from the top of my head, more abuses are bound to be discovered. It's better to leave races as races. There's no reason that you'd be allowed multiple Race feats. Consider the Heritage feats. If you have a Heritage feat, you normally can't take another Heritage feat unless one of the Heritage feats you already have is a prerequisite for it. Race feats would obviously have a similar restriction. And since taking a Race feat would change your Race, you're no longer Human, so you can no longer benefit from feats like Able Learner. The main reason I don't like the idea of turning a race into a feat is because of how mechanically cumbersome it is. Having distinct races is simply easier.