Empathic Transfer and your psicrystal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Empathic Transfer and your psicrystal [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hovnarr
06-18-07, 09:22 AM Here's a bit of rules combination to improve your egoist's restorative abilities. Please confirm that it works.

*Empathic Transfer is a touch range power that, in addition to healing wounds, can be used to treat disease, poison or ability damage.
*A psion of level 3 or higher with a psicrystal can designate the psicrystal as the "toucher" for touch range powers.
*Constructs (like the psicrystal) are immune to disease, poison and ability damage.

Lo and behold: transfering the bad stuff to your psicrystal makes it go away. In one power, you now have good healing (combined with vigor), cure poison, cure disease and attribute restoration. You can even use this on yourself, since you effectively shunt the bad stuff over to your psicrystal who couldn't care less about it.
Tyroki
06-18-07, 09:33 AM Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant xD

Just... >.> You may want to be careful about using it to heal yourself of wounds >.> Bye bye psicrystal otherwise. But then... Couple this with Psionic Repair Damage and who cares xD
Racinante
06-18-07, 09:56 AM Except, of course, that it does not work. The psicrystal is the toucher, but you are still the manifester, so the disease, poison, or ability is still transferred to you.
Tyroki
06-18-07, 10:15 AM So it can only be done at level 15 then?
hovnarr
06-18-07, 10:25 AM I'd say that point is open for debate. As Tyroki hints at, it should at least be possible at level 15 since Channel Power specifies the psicrystal as the power's originator.

Now, the question is if you interpret Deliver Touch Power as a limited version of Channel Power (in that it only works for touch range powers), or something else entirely.

Rules of the Game has an article on familiars, where part 2 reads:

Some touch spells have noticeable effects after they have been cast, and those effects are transferred to the familiar. For example, the chill touch spell makes the caster's hand glow blue. If the caster uses his familiar to deliver chill touch, the familiar glows blue.

That's all I could find on the subject, but it hints at the guideline that any post-manifestation effects should be directed towards the psicrystal, not the manifester.

You may want to be careful about using it to heal yourself of wounds

Hmm, yes, that could work using shared Vigor. Not too broken to me since Psions can heal anyway and can use this very healing mechanism for their allies. Why not also for themselves? Over the course of a long campaign, clerics will still be far better even if you only use SRD material.
Tyroki
06-18-07, 10:30 AM I get you. Vigor up the crystal, then let it soak up damage with the vigor. Genius =D

Hmm. Guess it's really up to the DM, as per usual xD
Racinante
06-18-07, 11:50 AM I'd say that point is open for debate. As Tyroki hints at, it should at least be possible at level 15 since Channel Power specifies the psicrystal as the power's originator.

Everything is always up for debate. At level 15 you can channel power, but you still could not pull this combination off since the psicrystal is immune to those effects, therefore they cannot be transferred to it.

That's all I could find on the subject, but it hints at the guideline that any post-manifestation effects should be directed towards the psicrystal, not the manifester.
I totally disagree with that interpretation. Nothing is provided in that example concerning the discharge of the power/spell.
hovnarr
06-18-07, 11:59 AM Racinante,

I guess Tyroki is right and this ultimately being a DM interpretation question, but this particular argument I do not get:

but you still could not pull this combination off since the psicrystal is immune to those effects, therefore they cannot be transferred to it

Does Empathic Transfer specify that you can't transfer if you're immune to the effect? Where? Does that also mean that you can't use it to transfer a poison when under the effect of a Neutralize Poison spell?
axenome
06-18-07, 12:06 PM I just had this mental image of a humanoid holding a crystal walking into the room after the psion accidentally manifested Mind Switch instead of Empathic Transfer... Which one is the psicrytal and which one the psion? Could the psion make himself sprout ectoplasmic legs to walk around with or would the humanoid psicrystal have to do that for him?
Racinante
06-18-07, 12:09 PM Does Empathic Transfer specify that you can't transfer if you're immune to the effect? Where? Does that also mean that you can't use it to transfer a poison when under the effect of a Neutralize Poison spell?

It is referenced through implication as a function of immunity in the section on damage transfer.

The damage transferred by this power has no type, so even if you have immunity to the type of damage the target originally took, the transfer occurs normally and deals hit point damage to you.

Then bolded section implies that if you are immune and if immunity applied, then you could not normally transfer the damage. This would be a function of immunity and not of the damage, therefore if you are immune to the poison, disease or ability damage, then you could not transfer it, since no exception for that function is identified.
Racinante
06-18-07, 12:12 PM I just had this mental image of a humanoid holding a crystal walking into the room after the psion accidentally manifested Mind Switch instead of Empathic Transfer... Which one is the psicrytal and which one the psion? Could the psion make himself sprout ectoplasmic legs to walk around with or would the humanoid psicrystal have to do that for him?
The psicrystal is immune to Mind Switch.
Lycanthromancer
06-18-07, 12:15 PM Unless you polymorph or metamorphosis it. ...Once you've dismissed the transformation effect, do your minds switch back?
Racinante
06-18-07, 02:12 PM Unless you polymorph or metamorphosis it. ...Once you've dismissed the transformation effect, do your minds switch back?

To paraphrase the Sage "the rules are curiously silent on this", but I would think so.
hovnarr
06-18-07, 04:10 PM Then bolded section implies that if you are immune and if immunity applied, then you could not normally transfer the damage. This would be a function of immunity and not of the damage, therefore if you are immune to the poison, disease or ability damage, then you could not transfer it, since no exception for that function is identified.

No, that's not what that section means. First off, even if it would be relevant, it would cause the immunity to be ignored - not the power to fail. But that doesn't matter since it only applies to typed hit point damage.

Example: if the target originally took fire damage and you have fire immunity, empathic transfer doesn't "remember" the damage type and converts it all to non-typed hit point damage so that your fire immunity doesn't apply. This is to be expected, since lost hp normally don't remember what caused them to go away, but they felt a need to clarify this since the power (flavourwise) actually removes damage rather than add hit points.

Since attribute damage, poison and diseases have no type to begin with, this point is moot for them. That is also why it's written specifically in the hit point section of the power.

To clarify, "fire damage" is short for "hit point damage of the fire type". "Strength damage" however, means precisely that. It does not mean "hit point damage of the strength type". Therefore, the section on ignoring immunity to certain damage types does not apply. There's a difference between [damage type] as a game term and "damage type" as in common English. That's why we can specify "non-typed damage" and still be certain that we are dealing with hit point damage.
Racinante
06-18-07, 06:47 PM I believe you are over analyzing it hovnarr. If you are immune then you are not a legal target for that which you are immune.

If you disagree with that, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Tyroki
06-19-07, 03:24 AM I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Wow... It's been a long time since I saw someone with the guts to say that. Well done ^^ Good show ^^
hovnarr
06-19-07, 03:30 AM If you disagree with that, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I do, so I guess we'll have to. But the point about immunity aside, I agree that it's the DM's call if you can or cannot have the psicrystal be affected by the power if you designate it as the toucher.
Tyroki
06-19-07, 03:48 AM Then hope the DM is kind >.>

Hovnarr, check your PM's neh? ^^
Fleem
06-19-07, 12:38 PM Sadly, no such luck with some DMs.

With enough autohypnosis, empathic transfer is the poor man's neutralize poison. No need for immunity, really.
Scion of Coldshard
06-19-07, 02:51 PM If you can make the psicrystal the one manifesting it then having it take a targets poison or disease is pretty nice, it certainly wont care ;)

Transfering damage to it sucks though since the damage transfered will bypass the hardness :(
hovnarr
06-20-07, 04:50 AM With enough autohypnosis, empathic transfer is the poor man's neutralize poison. No need for immunity, really.

Even with immunity, it's still a poor man's neutralize poison. You can only use it effectively after someone's already been poisoned... But it's still good since that's only 1 of 3 effects in a well balanced, discipline specific, level 2 power.

Transfering damage to it sucks though since the damage transfered will bypass the hardness

That it will, but you can Vigor it up first. Basically, if this trick is allowed, it means an egoist doesn't have to take Vigor, Empathic Transfer AND Body Adjustment to be a fully fledged healer.

If he can foresee that he will take damage, he can use Vigor preemptively and get some damage-prevention-to-PP economy. If he takes actual hp damage, it gets more expensive: he can use vigor as normal but must manifest ET through his psicrystal to heal for an additional 3+ PP. At least he won't be forced to spend yet another power slot (and a 3rd level one at that) to get some minor, crappy self-only healing to cover all his bases.

Of course, having two Egoists in the party would also enable this, but it really seems like an extreme measure to enable the party to get by on psionic healing. It's reasonable (to me at least) that spending a feat on a psicrystal would be an appropriate solution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 06-18-07, 09:22 AM	Here's a bit of rules combination to improve your egoist's restorative abilities. Please confirm that it works. Empathic Transfer is a touch range power that, in addition to healing wounds, can be used to treat disease, poison or ability damage. A psion of level 3 or higher with a psicrystal can designate the psicrystal as the "toucher" for touch range powers. *Constructs (like the psicrystal) are immune to disease, poison and ability damage. Lo and behold: transfering the bad stuff to your psicrystal makes it go away. In one power, you now have good healing (combined with vigor), cure poison, cure disease and attribute restoration. You can even use this on yourself, since you effectively shunt the bad stuff over to your psicrystal who couldn't care less about it.
Tyroki 06-18-07, 09:33 AM	Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant xD Just... >.> You may want to be careful about using it to heal yourself of wounds >.> Bye bye psicrystal otherwise. But then... Couple this with Psionic Repair Damage and who cares xD
Racinante 06-18-07, 09:56 AM	Except, of course, that it does not work. The psicrystal is the toucher, but you are still the manifester, so the disease, poison, or ability is still transferred to you.
Tyroki 06-18-07, 10:15 AM	So it can only be done at level 15 then?
hovnarr 06-18-07, 10:25 AM	I'd say that point is open for debate. As Tyroki hints at, it should at least be possible at level 15 since Channel Power specifies the psicrystal as the power's originator. Now, the question is if you interpret Deliver Touch Power as a limited version of Channel Power (in that it only works for touch range powers), or something else entirely. Rules of the Game has an article on familiars, where part 2 reads: Some touch spells have noticeable effects after they have been cast, and those effects are transferred to the familiar. For example, the chill touch spell makes the caster's hand glow blue. If the caster uses his familiar to deliver chill touch, the familiar glows blue. That's all I could find on the subject, but it hints at the guideline that any post-manifestation effects should be directed towards the psicrystal, not the manifester. You may want to be careful about using it to heal yourself of wounds Hmm, yes, that could work using shared Vigor. Not too broken to me since Psions can heal anyway and can use this very healing mechanism for their allies. Why not also for themselves? Over the course of a long campaign, clerics will still be far better even if you only use SRD material.
Tyroki 06-18-07, 10:30 AM	I get you. Vigor up the crystal, then let it soak up damage with the vigor. Genius =D Hmm. Guess it's really up to the DM, as per usual xD
Racinante 06-18-07, 11:50 AM	I'd say that point is open for debate. As Tyroki hints at, it should at least be possible at level 15 since Channel Power specifies the psicrystal as the power's originator. Everything is always up for debate. At level 15 you can channel power, but you still could not pull this combination off since the psicrystal is immune to those effects, therefore they cannot be transferred to it. That's all I could find on the subject, but it hints at the guideline that any post-manifestation effects should be directed towards the psicrystal, not the manifester. I totally disagree with that interpretation. Nothing is provided in that example concerning the discharge of the power/spell.
hovnarr 06-18-07, 11:59 AM	Racinante, I guess Tyroki is right and this ultimately being a DM interpretation question, but this particular argument I do not get: but you still could not pull this combination off since the psicrystal is immune to those effects, therefore they cannot be transferred to it Does Empathic Transfer specify that you can't transfer if you're immune to the effect? Where? Does that also mean that you can't use it to transfer a poison when under the effect of a Neutralize Poison spell?
axenome 06-18-07, 12:06 PM	I just had this mental image of a humanoid holding a crystal walking into the room after the psion accidentally manifested Mind Switch instead of Empathic Transfer... Which one is the psicrytal and which one the psion? Could the psion make himself sprout ectoplasmic legs to walk around with or would the humanoid psicrystal have to do that for him?
Racinante 06-18-07, 12:09 PM	Does Empathic Transfer specify that you can't transfer if you're immune to the effect? Where? Does that also mean that you can't use it to transfer a poison when under the effect of a Neutralize Poison spell? It is referenced through implication as a function of immunity in the section on damage transfer. The damage transferred by this power has no type, so even if you have immunity to the type of damage the target originally took, the transfer occurs normally and deals hit point damage to you. Then bolded section implies that if you are immune and if immunity applied, then you could not normally transfer the damage. This would be a function of immunity and not of the damage, therefore if you are immune to the poison, disease or ability damage, then you could not transfer it, since no exception for that function is identified.
Racinante 06-18-07, 12:12 PM	I just had this mental image of a humanoid holding a crystal walking into the room after the psion accidentally manifested Mind Switch instead of Empathic Transfer... Which one is the psicrytal and which one the psion? Could the psion make himself sprout ectoplasmic legs to walk around with or would the humanoid psicrystal have to do that for him? The psicrystal is immune to Mind Switch.
Lycanthromancer 06-18-07, 12:15 PM	Unless you polymorph or metamorphosis it. ...Once you've dismissed the transformation effect, do your minds switch back?
Racinante 06-18-07, 02:12 PM	Unless you polymorph or metamorphosis it. ...Once you've dismissed the transformation effect, do your minds switch back? To paraphrase the Sage "the rules are curiously silent on this", but I would think so.
hovnarr 06-18-07, 04:10 PM	Then bolded section implies that if you are immune and if immunity applied, then you could not normally transfer the damage. This would be a function of immunity and not of the damage, therefore if you are immune to the poison, disease or ability damage, then you could not transfer it, since no exception for that function is identified. No, that's not what that section means. First off, even if it would be relevant, it would cause the immunity to be ignored - not the power to fail. But that doesn't matter since it only applies to typed hit point damage. Example: if the target originally took fire damage and you have fire immunity, empathic transfer doesn't "remember" the damage type and converts it all to non-typed hit point damage so that your fire immunity doesn't apply. This is to be expected, since lost hp normally don't remember what caused them to go away, but they felt a need to clarify this since the power (flavourwise) actually removes damage rather than add hit points. Since attribute damage, poison and diseases have no type to begin with, this point is moot for them. That is also why it's written specifically in the hit point section of the power. To clarify, "fire damage" is short for "hit point damage of the fire type". "Strength damage" however, means precisely that. It does not mean "hit point damage of the strength type". Therefore, the section on ignoring immunity to certain damage types does not apply. There's a difference between [damage type] as a game term and "damage type" as in common English. That's why we can specify "non-typed damage" and still be certain that we are dealing with hit point damage.
Racinante 06-18-07, 06:47 PM	I believe you are over analyzing it hovnarr. If you are immune then you are not a legal target for that which you are immune. If you disagree with that, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Tyroki 06-19-07, 03:24 AM	I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Wow... It's been a long time since I saw someone with the guts to say that. Well done ^^ Good show ^^
hovnarr 06-19-07, 03:30 AM	If you disagree with that, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do, so I guess we'll have to. But the point about immunity aside, I agree that it's the DM's call if you can or cannot have the psicrystal be affected by the power if you designate it as the toucher.
Tyroki 06-19-07, 03:48 AM	Then hope the DM is kind >.> Hovnarr, check your PM's neh? ^^
Fleem 06-19-07, 12:38 PM	Sadly, no such luck with some DMs. With enough autohypnosis, empathic transfer is the poor man's neutralize poison. No need for immunity, really.
Scion of Coldshard 06-19-07, 02:51 PM	If you can make the psicrystal the one manifesting it then having it take a targets poison or disease is pretty nice, it certainly wont care ;) Transfering damage to it sucks though since the damage transfered will bypass the hardness :(
hovnarr 06-20-07, 04:50 AM	With enough autohypnosis, empathic transfer is the poor man's neutralize poison. No need for immunity, really. Even with immunity, it's still a poor man's neutralize poison. You can only use it effectively after someone's already been poisoned... But it's still good since that's only 1 of 3 effects in a well balanced, discipline specific, level 2 power. Transfering damage to it sucks though since the damage transfered will bypass the hardness That it will, but you can Vigor it up first. Basically, if this trick is allowed, it means an egoist doesn't have to take Vigor, Empathic Transfer AND Body Adjustment to be a fully fledged healer. If he can foresee that he will take damage, he can use Vigor preemptively and get some damage-prevention-to-PP economy. If he takes actual hp damage, it gets more expensive: he can use vigor as normal but must manifest ET through his psicrystal to heal for an additional 3+ PP. At least he won't be forced to spend yet another power slot (and a 3rd level one at that) to get some minor, crappy self-only healing to cover all his bases. Of course, having two Egoists in the party would also enable this, but it really seems like an extreme measure to enable the party to get by on psionic healing. It's reasonable (to me at least) that spending a feat on a psicrystal would be an appropriate solution.