Energy Missle. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Energy Missle. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sages
06-25-07, 08:27 PM I had a debate with my Dm over energy missle being balanced or not.
Would changing the power to affect a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, DC increases by 1DC\2pp balance the power?
Genetic
06-25-07, 08:56 PM I believe Complete Psionic actually errataed Energy Missile to increase the save DC at 1 per 2 pp (like all other powers). That makes it balanced and in line with all other powers.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-25-07, 09:05 PM I had a debate with my Dm over energy missle being balanced or not.
Would changing the power to affect a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, DC increases by 1DC\2pp balance the power?

Keep in mind that it only works if every single target is no farther than 15' from every other target. That's worse than a fireball, and those targets are begging to be hit by an area effect.

Yeah, you should make the DC scale at +1 per 2 pp, if only for sanity's sake.
turalisj
06-25-07, 09:24 PM Point him to a certain first level spell that is an auto-hit. You'll hav to hit yourself if you don't know which one that is...
Tyroki
06-26-07, 03:33 AM Which one is it? XD *Hits self* No seriously >.>
zuul88
06-26-07, 03:58 AM *Drumroll...........please* Magic Missle!!!!!!

Respect
Nathan
sages
06-26-07, 04:44 AM Thanks for the replyes.
WinDReiN
06-26-07, 06:40 AM I just might be that DM.
I changed the EM to affect 3 targets max, and the +1 to DC/2pp to stop an overuse of a single power. Also from the sticky:

Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered
Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary.
Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike.
Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage.
Lycanthromancer
06-26-07, 03:46 PM I certainly wouldn't take that version of energy missile unless I was given the option of augmenting it for more targets.

Hell, I wouldn't take it now. It's far too situational to be any good, especially since I voluntarily use the +1 pp = +1 DC rule to keep the DM from going Librarian-poo on psionics. (He thinks it's "overpowered," but lets me use it anyway.)

My errata'd version is 5 targets within a 5' radius, augmentable for more targets, larger radius, and more damage (but in separate augments, for added flexibility). Not to mention negative augments that allows you to *not* pay for the bits you don't want to use. It also has the +2 pp = +1 DC fix. That way, you can pay for what you want, don't have to pay for what you don't, and it ups the flexibility and usefulness of the power considerably (while keeping it from being excessively overpowered).

Keep in mind that I've also made other powers far more useful and flexible, so it's not a "must-have" power (heh, all of them are must-have powers, so it's a non-issue :)).
sages
06-26-07, 04:53 PM Thanks!
Nom
06-26-07, 11:01 PM Correct me if I'm wrong, but Energy Missile (fixed) vs Fireball:

Level 2 vs 3
Range Medium vs Long
Targets 5 targets within 15 ft. vs 20 ft. radius (40 ft. diameter) spread
Save Ref/Fort half vs Ref half
Damage (1d6+1) per pp (per target) vs 1d6 per level (per target)

So it's plainly weaker than fireball.

Compared to scorching ray
Level 2 vs 2
Range Medium vs Short
Targets 5 targets within 15 ft. vs 1+ targets within 30 ft.
Save Fort/Ref half vs none (ranged touch)
Damage (1d6+1) per pp (per target) vs 4d6 (3-6) / 8d6 (7-10) / 12d6 (11+)
Crits no vs yes

So energy missile is probably more effective than scorching ray, definitely so against groups. It's also more expensive: with 5 pp you could use energy ball / fireball instead. Against a single target scorching ray is without question more economical and at least as effective.
Bacris
06-27-07, 12:10 AM In 15 levels of playing a kineticist, I can count on one hand the number of times I hit more than 2 targets with energy missile.

Any DM that lumps that many creatures together in so small a space is asking for trouble.
WinDReiN
06-27-07, 04:04 AM Don't forget the main advantage of energy missle - you can choose betwen 5 energy types. So comparing fireball or schorching ray which deal just fire dmg is not quite covered. Also, in my gaming experience, I've seen enough enemies that are 15 ft from each other and waiting to get an area effect in their heads.
Bacris
06-27-07, 07:06 AM Where they're ALL within 15 feet?

Remember, this isn't A is 15 feet from B is 15 feet from C, etc, they all have to be in a 15 foot area with each other...

That's kind of a tight area for 3+ creatures.
WinDReiN
06-27-07, 07:56 AM Of course, not all were within 15 ft. Yes, it's a 15 ft diameter, or 7,5 ft radius. Enough for 3 creatures in many ocasions. I.e. when they crowd to the door. Especially lethal if the creature if vulnerable to some form of element.
Bacris
06-27-07, 12:22 PM And here my point again is such tactics by creatures are seriously just asking for an area effect.

Hell, I've seen rogues shout to the caster (psion, wizard, sorceror, whatever) to nuke a group of enemies with the rogue inside thanks to improved evasion - mob mentality screams lack of tactical foresight - instead, 1-2 should be at the front, with the others trying to come around the sides / shooting from afar. Swarming like that at any level above 5 is stupidity on the part of the enemies and they deserve to get roasted.
Red_Decker
06-27-07, 01:22 PM And here my point again is such tactics by creatures are seriously just asking for an area effect.

Hell, I've seen rogues shout to the caster (psion, wizard, sorceror, whatever) to nuke a group of enemies with the rogue inside thanks to improved evasion - mob mentality screams lack of tactical foresight - instead, 1-2 should be at the front, with the others trying to come around the sides / shooting from afar. Swarming like that at any level above 5 is stupidity on the part of the enemies and they deserve to get roasted.

Actually I do that all the time with my monks/rogues.

The thing people keep saying about you'll hit party members... Not all of us care, and plus if it's something commonly happens what's the problem with someone casting resist energy [fire] on the tanks while they fight the bad guys. Or better yet, potions.

http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
WinDReiN
06-28-07, 07:05 AM I changed my mind, I will just change the DC scale at +1 per 2 pp.

Edit: Or not.
Scion of Coldshard
06-28-07, 12:39 PM Against single targets: Energy ray
Against a few, tightly packed opponents: Energy missile
Against a horde of enemiles: Energy ball/bolt/burst/cone

Each has their own area of specialty and place of use.

Energy ray has no save but you must make a ranged touch attack. At some point that tends to become trivial

Energy missiles save goes up quickly in comparison to other abilities but it is essentially only +1 DC per 2 pp extra and since it is a specialty power, and so effectively worth a feat in the psionic side of the equation, does anyone have a problem with a feat that grants +1 to the DC for each 2 pp on a power that only deals energy damage? Sure, it might be a problem on a save or die, but this is just energy damage! ;)

Energy ball/bolt/burst/cone hits a very large area so with enough guys in that area its average damage will be higher than the other two easily.

Different areas of use, if one is ruling supreme over the others your dm might be stuck in a rut of what sort of opponents exist in his world...
turalisj
06-28-07, 06:41 PM Also against single opponents is: Energy Claw(CP), Energy Flash(CP), and Energy Lance(CP)

Against Multiple foes, you can use Energy Burst(CP), which deals three 10ft bursts, each one dealing 5d6 damage. These three bursts can be anywhere within (100ft+10ft per level). That means a level 11 psion (minimum manifester level) has a 210ft range to hit.
Mesiolan
07-02-07, 11:59 AM I've played a kineticist for a few levels, and Energy Missile is by far the most useful power. It's THE bread and butter power for levels 3-9.

It is very flexible (four energy types), does not require to-hit-rolls (yes, fire into melee and fry the mooks flanking your tank), and can be augmented to your needs and pp reserve.

I used it in almost every encounter, and its very good against riders. You may hit rider and mount, and chances are good there are more enemies less than 20' away (remember: a rider occupies every square of the mount, so 2 mounted foes = 4 targets).

Playing Red Hand of Doom, I used it succesfully on 3-5 targets about half of the encounters.
CrimsonDeath
07-02-07, 12:11 PM Actually I do that all the time with my monks/rogues.

The thing people keep saying about you'll hit party members... Not all of us care, and plus if it's something commonly happens what's the problem with someone casting resist energy [fire] on the tanks while they fight the bad guys. Or better yet, potions.

http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Rogues and Monks? I had a Fighter/Barbarian once who didn't really mind fireballs. High Dex + high Con + PrC with good Reflex save.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sages 06-25-07, 08:27 PM	I had a debate with my Dm over energy missle being balanced or not. Would changing the power to affect a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, DC increases by 1DC\2pp balance the power?
Genetic 06-25-07, 08:56 PM	I believe Complete Psionic actually errataed Energy Missile to increase the save DC at 1 per 2 pp (like all other powers). That makes it balanced and in line with all other powers.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-25-07, 09:05 PM	I had a debate with my Dm over energy missle being balanced or not. Would changing the power to affect a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, DC increases by 1DC\2pp balance the power? Keep in mind that it only works if every single target is no farther than 15' from every other target. That's worse than a fireball, and those targets are begging to be hit by an area effect. Yeah, you should make the DC scale at +1 per 2 pp, if only for sanity's sake.
turalisj 06-25-07, 09:24 PM	Point him to a certain first level spell that is an auto-hit. You'll hav to hit yourself if you don't know which one that is...
Tyroki 06-26-07, 03:33 AM	Which one is it? XD Hits self No seriously >.>
zuul88 06-26-07, 03:58 AM	Drumroll...........please Magic Missle!!!!!! Respect Nathan
sages 06-26-07, 04:44 AM	Thanks for the replyes.
WinDReiN 06-26-07, 06:40 AM	I just might be that DM. I changed the EM to affect 3 targets max, and the +1 to DC/2pp to stop an overuse of a single power. Also from the sticky: Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike. Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage.
Lycanthromancer 06-26-07, 03:46 PM	I certainly wouldn't take that version of energy missile unless I was given the option of augmenting it for more targets. Hell, I wouldn't take it now. It's far too situational to be any good, especially since I voluntarily use the +1 pp = +1 DC rule to keep the DM from going Librarian-poo on psionics. (He thinks it's "overpowered," but lets me use it anyway.) My errata'd version is 5 targets within a 5' radius, augmentable for more targets, larger radius, and more damage (but in separate augments, for added flexibility). Not to mention negative augments that allows you to not pay for the bits you don't want to use. It also has the +2 pp = +1 DC fix. That way, you can pay for what you want, don't have to pay for what you don't, and it ups the flexibility and usefulness of the power considerably (while keeping it from being excessively overpowered). Keep in mind that I've also made other powers far more useful and flexible, so it's not a "must-have" power (heh, all of them are must-have powers, so it's a non-issue :)).
sages 06-26-07, 04:53 PM	Thanks!
Nom 06-26-07, 11:01 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but Energy Missile (fixed) vs Fireball: Level 2 vs 3 Range Medium vs Long Targets 5 targets within 15 ft. vs 20 ft. radius (40 ft. diameter) spread Save Ref/Fort half vs Ref half Damage (1d6+1) per pp (per target) vs 1d6 per level (per target) So it's plainly weaker than fireball. Compared to scorching ray Level 2 vs 2 Range Medium vs Short Targets 5 targets within 15 ft. vs 1+ targets within 30 ft. Save Fort/Ref half vs none (ranged touch) Damage (1d6+1) per pp (per target) vs 4d6 (3-6) / 8d6 (7-10) / 12d6 (11+) Crits no vs yes So energy missile is probably more effective than scorching ray, definitely so against groups. It's also more expensive: with 5 pp you could use energy ball / fireball instead. Against a single target scorching ray is without question more economical and at least as effective.
Bacris 06-27-07, 12:10 AM	In 15 levels of playing a kineticist, I can count on one hand the number of times I hit more than 2 targets with energy missile. Any DM that lumps that many creatures together in so small a space is asking for trouble.
WinDReiN 06-27-07, 04:04 AM	Don't forget the main advantage of energy missle - you can choose betwen 5 energy types. So comparing fireball or schorching ray which deal just fire dmg is not quite covered. Also, in my gaming experience, I've seen enough enemies that are 15 ft from each other and waiting to get an area effect in their heads.
Bacris 06-27-07, 07:06 AM	Where they're ALL within 15 feet? Remember, this isn't A is 15 feet from B is 15 feet from C, etc, they all have to be in a 15 foot area with each other... That's kind of a tight area for 3+ creatures.
WinDReiN 06-27-07, 07:56 AM	Of course, not all were within 15 ft. Yes, it's a 15 ft diameter, or 7,5 ft radius. Enough for 3 creatures in many ocasions. I.e. when they crowd to the door. Especially lethal if the creature if vulnerable to some form of element.
Bacris 06-27-07, 12:22 PM	And here my point again is such tactics by creatures are seriously just asking for an area effect. Hell, I've seen rogues shout to the caster (psion, wizard, sorceror, whatever) to nuke a group of enemies with the rogue inside thanks to improved evasion - mob mentality screams lack of tactical foresight - instead, 1-2 should be at the front, with the others trying to come around the sides / shooting from afar. Swarming like that at any level above 5 is stupidity on the part of the enemies and they deserve to get roasted.
Red_Decker 06-27-07, 01:22 PM	And here my point again is such tactics by creatures are seriously just asking for an area effect. Hell, I've seen rogues shout to the caster (psion, wizard, sorceror, whatever) to nuke a group of enemies with the rogue inside thanks to improved evasion - mob mentality screams lack of tactical foresight - instead, 1-2 should be at the front, with the others trying to come around the sides / shooting from afar. Swarming like that at any level above 5 is stupidity on the part of the enemies and they deserve to get roasted. Actually I do that all the time with my monks/rogues. The thing people keep saying about you'll hit party members... Not all of us care, and plus if it's something commonly happens what's the problem with someone casting resist energy [fire] on the tanks while they fight the bad guys. Or better yet, potions. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
WinDReiN 06-28-07, 07:05 AM	I changed my mind, I will just change the DC scale at +1 per 2 pp. Edit: Or not.
Scion of Coldshard 06-28-07, 12:39 PM	Against single targets: Energy ray Against a few, tightly packed opponents: Energy missile Against a horde of enemiles: Energy ball/bolt/burst/cone Each has their own area of specialty and place of use. Energy ray has no save but you must make a ranged touch attack. At some point that tends to become trivial Energy missiles save goes up quickly in comparison to other abilities but it is essentially only +1 DC per 2 pp extra and since it is a specialty power, and so effectively worth a feat in the psionic side of the equation, does anyone have a problem with a feat that grants +1 to the DC for each 2 pp on a power that only deals energy damage? Sure, it might be a problem on a save or die, but this is just energy damage! ;) Energy ball/bolt/burst/cone hits a very large area so with enough guys in that area its average damage will be higher than the other two easily. Different areas of use, if one is ruling supreme over the others your dm might be stuck in a rut of what sort of opponents exist in his world...
turalisj 06-28-07, 06:41 PM	Also against single opponents is: Energy Claw(CP), Energy Flash(CP), and Energy Lance(CP) Against Multiple foes, you can use Energy Burst(CP), which deals three 10ft bursts, each one dealing 5d6 damage. These three bursts can be anywhere within (100ft+10ft per level). That means a level 11 psion (minimum manifester level) has a 210ft range to hit.
Mesiolan 07-02-07, 11:59 AM	I've played a kineticist for a few levels, and Energy Missile is by far the most useful power. It's THE bread and butter power for levels 3-9. It is very flexible (four energy types), does not require to-hit-rolls (yes, fire into melee and fry the mooks flanking your tank), and can be augmented to your needs and pp reserve. I used it in almost every encounter, and its very good against riders. You may hit rider and mount, and chances are good there are more enemies less than 20' away (remember: a rider occupies every square of the mount, so 2 mounted foes = 4 targets). Playing Red Hand of Doom, I used it succesfully on 3-5 targets about half of the encounters.
CrimsonDeath 07-02-07, 12:11 PM	Actually I do that all the time with my monks/rogues. The thing people keep saying about you'll hit party members... Not all of us care, and plus if it's something commonly happens what's the problem with someone casting resist energy [fire] on the tanks while they fight the bad guys. Or better yet, potions. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt Rogues and Monks? I had a Fighter/Barbarian once who didn't really mind fireballs. High Dex + high Con + PrC with good Reflex save.