Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 09-05-07, 01:11 AM	I have three questions. Be aware first that I am the DM, and these are powers used by NPCs against PCs. 1) The Energy Push power, when used, pushes a target back 5 feet + 5 feet/5 HP damage. If the target hits a hard surface, they take 2d6 points of damage. What happens if the target is hit from Above? As in, the psion is using Levitate or has high ground, and blasts them from above - would the fact that the target is on the ground, and thus would Hit the ground, be enough to take the extra 2d6 of damage? (I also wonder if a psion could be prone and blast someone into the air, but doubt that's not possible). 2) Still on Energy Push, would Empower Power also add x1.5 to the 2d6 for hitting a surface? 3) The power Foxhole from Untapped Potential. When Augmented, it says that the 5 spaces effected can become 5 cubes, and only 1 need be touching the surface. Does this mean that would could create a 20ft deep pit in a 5ft square under an opponent?
Tempest Stormwind 09-05-07, 01:36 AM	1) The Energy Push power, when used, pushes a target back 5 feet + 5 feet/5 HP damage. If the target hits a hard surface, they take 2d6 points of damage. What happens if the target is hit from Above? As in, the psion is using Levitate or has high ground, and blasts them from above - would the fact that the target is on the ground, and thus would Hit the ground, be enough to take the extra 2d6 of damage? (I also wonder if a psion could be prone and blast someone into the air, but doubt that's not possible). Treat it identical to if the psion was pushed into a wall from being adjacent to it. In other words, yes. It wouldn't knock 'em prone, though. (If the campaign calls for it, by all means do the "squash" visual effect.) Given the difficulty in pulling off a "prone, *and* beneath the target, *and* able to blast the target successfully" push, I'd allow it to knock an opponent into the air. However, since it's harder to do that than to push someone back, I'd use the damage dealt as the Strength score of a person trying to lift it, using carrying capacity. If it's enough, then up he goes. 2) Still on Energy Push, would Empower Power also add x1.5 to the 2d6 for hitting a surface? That is a variable, numeric effect of the power, so yes. 3) The power Foxhole from Untapped Potential. When Augmented, it says that the 5 spaces effected can become 5 cubes, and only 1 need be touching the surface. Does this mean that would could create a 20ft deep pit in a 5ft square under an opponent? That was an unexpected but awesome consequence of how I wrote it. Note that as written, though, Foxhole CANNOT close that hole on its own, so no insta-graves. Furthermore, it has a phenominally short range of just 20' (depending on how you measure range, that could mean you have to be *adjacent* to the target to pull that off, since otherwise part of the pit is further than 20' away from you!), the save DC is not augmentable, and a pit that narrow has a relatively low Climb DC, especially if the terrain is rough enough for natural handholds. (Recall the rule of thumb: It's basically what shovels could do but faster.)
Rechan 09-05-07, 02:14 AM	Given the difficulty in pulling off a "prone, *and* beneath the target, *and* able to blast the target successfully" push, I'd allow it to knock an opponent into the air. However, since it's harder to do that than to push someone back, I'd use the damage dealt as the Strength score of a person trying to lift it, using carrying capacity. If it's enough, then up he goes. Well I was thinking 'prone and in the adjacent square'. But here I was trying to imagine pumping the augment all the way and trying to get some falling damage in there. I just like that power. It's the "GET AWAY FROM ME" power. I'm disappointed that I can't do what I was intending to do (namely arm the kineticist with a Longspear and have him running along the walls using levitate, and attacking people on the ground with reach while using Energy Push), but that works just fine. That was an unexpected but awesome consequence of how I wrote it. Note that as written, though, Foxhole CANNOT close that hole on its own, so no insta-graves. Furthermore, it has a phenominally short range of just 20' (depending on how you measure range, that could mean you have to be *adjacent* to the target to pull that off, since otherwise part of the pit is further than 20' away from you!), the save DC is not augmentable, and a pit that narrow has a relatively low Climb DC, especially if the terrain is rough enough for natural handholds. (Recall the rule of thumb: It's basically what shovels could do but faster.) That's fine. Thanks for the answers. :) And no, I just like considering the power a nice battlefield controlling one. Although slap a Widen power ontop of it, and it becomes an immediate "You're outta here for a while." It's a great ambush power, or counter-ambush power. I'm sure there's some sort of power out there that you could throw on top of the hole - walls can't go horizontal. When I first heard about Foxhole, I was fantasizing about it working indoors. Because I love the idea of being on the third floor and essentially dumping someone onto the second. Though I imagine such a power would be resigned to a 3rd level power - being able to punch a hole into various worked surfaces. Just a side comment. Foxhole also can go into stone, but something without a toughness of over 10 - so what kind of stone are we talking about? Just like, the top of a cliff? (Ow, that's nasty; use Foxhole to create a 'chute' of an angled hole that opens off the cliff face! :eek:)
munin 09-05-07, 09:16 AM	Given the difficulty in pulling off a "prone, *and* beneath the target, *and* able to blast the target successfully" push, I'd allow it to knock an opponent into the air. However, since it's harder to do that than to push someone back, I'd use the damage dealt as the Strength score of a person trying to lift it, using carrying capacity. If it's enough, then up he goes. That doesn't tell you how far they're pushed into the air (unless you meant they're pushed up the same distance they would have been pushed sideways). Also, the power already defines a "Strength" (for the purposes of making a Strength check) as the power's DC, not its damage. Seems more reasonable to use that, since it's already defined. Instead of looking up max loads for a Strength score, I'd say just use the already defined 5:1 ratio between pushing an object along the ground and lifting an object above your head, since its closely analogous. Using that, the target would be lifted 1 foot, plus 1 feet for every 5 points of damage. With a low ceiling, you might make them hit something. They would immediately fall back down, and with a powerful enough push might have to check for falling damage too. Energy Push allows a Strength check to resist being pushed, but if the push is straight up, I don't see that it should be allowed. I think an additional Reflex save to avoid the direct force of the push might make more sense.
RadicalTaoist 09-05-07, 01:27 PM	When I first heard about Foxhole, I was fantasizing about it working indoors. Because I love the idea of being on the third floor and essentially dumping someone onto the second. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion someone has an office job?
Rechan 09-05-07, 03:31 PM	Why do I have a sneaking suspicion someone has an office job? No, but I would love for the villains on the fourth floor to dump some hapless PC into the 3rd floor room full of nasties while they work over the rest of the group.
Salla 09-05-07, 03:34 PM	No, but I would love for the villains on the fourth floor to dump some hapless PC into the 3rd floor room full of nasties while they work over the rest of the group. "Going ... down?" *fwumph* "AAAWWGODMYLEGTHEY'REEATINGMYLEG!!!!"
Millenia 09-05-07, 05:24 PM	Although slap a Widen power ontop of it, and it becomes an immediate "You're outta here for a while." It's a great ambush power, or counter-ambush power. I'm sure there's some sort of power out there that you could throw on top of the hole - walls can't go horizontal. When I first heard about Foxhole, I was fantasizing about it working indoors. Because I love the idea of being on the third floor and essentially dumping someone onto the second. Though I imagine such a power would be resigned to a 3rd level power - being able to punch a hole into various worked surfaces. Just a side comment. Foxhole also can go into stone, but something without a toughness of over 10 - so what kind of stone are we talking about? Just like, the top of a cliff? (Ow, that's nasty; use Foxhole to create a 'chute' of an angled hole that opens off the cliff face! :eek:) Foxhole: Looney Tunes, psionics-style. .... Which would make an awesome motivator. Someone get on that.
Lycanthromancer 09-06-07, 11:33 PM	http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/OverTheEdge-1.jpg
mato_hibiki 09-08-07, 07:59 AM	Timestop + energy burst with delay power + foxhole = Ow! Did that guy just explode himself on me? On the other hand, if you're fighting say, a barbarian, and he starts raging... Foxhole the floor behind you and jump down when he starts charging. Or better yet, jump back OVER the hole instead. This is so utterly fun to abuse. Um, teleport to the floor above, drop a pellet from dust of dryness (instant lake) then foxhole the floor. Anyone standing right below the hole is going for a ride. Foxhole an opening right next to a wall, then energy push someone into the wall, and let them drop into the hole. Foxhole the ground below you, drop down, on your next turn when your foe leans over to look down at you, energy current straight up. If you have a wizard friend handy, foxhole a poor sap, have the wiz cast wall of stone or something right next to the foxhole, then have your party's fighter tip the wall over onto the hole. For more fun, have something very painful to drop into the hole before the wall comes down... Or a dust of dryness pellet. Instant watery grave. (my god that makes me sound evil) I can't count the number of times in a fight where I've thought 'if only I had a power that could make a hole in the ground right now'. And now I do. :D
Rechan 09-08-07, 08:15 AM	Actually Mato, foxhole only works on earth. Like, soil and sand and such. Though I'm considering a 2nd or 3rd level power that can do it to man-made structures.
mato_hibiki 09-08-07, 08:42 AM	Tch, my mistake, I had assume that you had done the upgraded version by now. Well, an easy fix, just make the upgrade, THEN use my ideas. :D The wall of stone, pit o' death/watery grave idea still works though. Heh, as long as you're outside.
Bacris 09-08-07, 09:05 AM	Actually Mato, foxhole only works on earth. Like, soil and sand and such. Though I'm considering a 2nd or 3rd level power that can do it to man-made structures. Sure it does - to a degree :) 3. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can dig through harder substances such as stone or ice. Foxhole, however, cannot rearrange any material of hardness greater than 10.
Rechan 09-08-07, 02:29 PM	Sure it does - to a degree :) So what's the hardness of a floor?
InkBlot 09-08-07, 02:35 PM	It depends on what the floor is made out of. Wooden floors have hardness 5. Stone floors have hardness 8. Check your PHB for a more complete listing.
Fafnir 09-08-07, 02:45 PM	In other words, you cannot Foxhole through steel.
InkBlot 09-08-07, 02:53 PM	Sure you can. Steel has a hardness of 10. 10 is not greater than 10. Therefore, you can foxhole through it. Mithral and adamantine, on the other hand, you cannot foxhole through. They have hardness of 15 and 20, respectively.
Fafnir 09-08-07, 03:10 PM	Sure you can. Steel has a hardness of 10. 10 is not greater than 10. Therefore, you can foxhole through it. Mithral and adamantine, on the other hand, you cannot foxhole through. They have hardness of 15 and 20, respectively. :doh:
Scion of Coldshard 09-08-07, 03:35 PM	Assuming that you need at least line of effect to create the holes with foxhole then it would be tough to make a 20' deep hole.. basically you would need to be flying and more or less straight up from the target. Not impossible, just an extra level of difficulty for a fun tactic but one that will lead to a very complicated situation.
Tempest Stormwind 09-08-07, 03:45 PM	The trick is in how you adjucate range. Observe with the ubiquitous Fireball. Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Area: 20-ft.-radius spread A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. So, what happens if a 5th level wizard sets off a fireball 600' away from him? Does the blast extend up to 640' away from the wizard (how most people I know adjucate it), or does the area consist of the portion of the spread that's within the range (how the rules show it)? Foxhole has a 20' range. If you want to use 4 5' cubes, that's 20' (under the original design idea of causing a straight-line channel from your position out to 20'). In order to get a straight-down hole, if you obey the bolded line, you have to be standing over where the hole starts (as if you weren't, part of the area would exist outside the spell's range). Granted, 10' down is enough to get through most floors, and you can do that from approximately 10' away from your target. They still are entitled to a (non-augmentable) save to avoid the fall, and 10' is incredibly close to the target, which means this is a really, really risky trick to try. This is all bypassed with Enlarge Power, interestingly enough, which no one ever thinks of in most cases. Really, though, I'm quite glad people enjoy that power. There's a few in that book I'm *really* pleased with, and Foxhole's one of them. (It, and Trick Shot, came out of the same day spent brainstorming for stunts the marksman could do that would be at least reasonably unique to them and was distinctly different, mechanically, from anything we'd seen in magic up to that point. Both were designed to reward creativity.)
Scion of Coldshard 09-08-07, 03:57 PM	The trick is in how you adjucate range. Range I am not worried about, I am worried about line of effect ;) Line of Effect A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a power can affect. A solid barrier cancels a line of effect, but it is not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you manifest a power on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any power you manifest. A burst, cone, or emanation power affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a power’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for the purpose of determining a power’s line of effect. So, after the first 5' cube the manifester is unlikely to have line of effect on the next cube down without taking initial precautions. I am away from the actual text at the moment though, so I dont know which type of effect is being used. Sorry about that. So, what happens if a 5th level wizard sets off a fireball 600' away from him? Does the blast extend up to 640' away from the wizard (how most people I know adjucate it), or does the area consist of the portion of the spread that's within the range (how the rules show it)? Oh I definately make the fireballs effect stop at the maximum range. If that makes for a weird shape so be it, it is magic ;) That also holds for a few spells that have a range and an area of the same amount. If you want to get the full effect then you are going to be 'in' the full effect! This is all bypassed with Enlarge Power, interestingly enough, which no one ever thinks of in most cases. Hmm.. I had thought of trying to use burrowing power for some really odd trap locations.. but you have to have line of sight, which is still tough to get ;/
Scion of Coldshard 09-08-07, 03:59 PM	Really, though, I'm quite glad people enjoy that power. There's a few in that book I'm *really* pleased with, and Foxhole's one of them. (It, and Trick Shot, came out of the same day spent brainstorming for stunts the marksman could do that would be at least reasonably unique to them and was distinctly different, mechanically, from anything we'd seen in magic up to that point. Both were designed to reward creativity.) I really enjoy trick powers and fun ones that also have decent, but not broken, combat uses ;) A 20' hole worries me a bit though.. it looks to really only be useful against medium and smaller, non-flying, non-climbing, non-burrowing creatures.. but against those it can easily remove them from the current combat. I will have to think it over more. I really like it, but I am a bit worried about it. This is especially true because the last couple of sessions in one of the games I am in there was already a hole nearby for a couple of the battles.. my 'mighty throw' maneuver put a couple of people down that hole.. if someone in the party had access to this power then I could easily see almost every battle revolving around some combination of those tactics.. which might get pretty old for the dm very quickly :(
Tempest Stormwind 09-08-07, 04:04 PM	Range I am not worried about, I am worried about line of effect ;) Area effects only need line of effect to the effect's origin. Now, while I didn't specify the origin (specifically because I wanted players to be creative), I did address Line of Effect on the cube augment. Specifically, the cube augment says "Only one of these cubes need be incontact with the surface when you start manifesting." Line of effect rules require you to have LoE to that surface or else you can't manifest, but the pit is taken care of after that. The fluff justification is that the power does what you could do by digging yourself, and since you can dig a pit without seeing the final depth beforehand...
Scion of Coldshard 09-08-07, 04:11 PM	I am afraid my lack of having the powers text on hand is still proving to be hindering ;) From the augment wording it sounded like you target the entire volume to be dug.. in essence, each cube space you would want to dig through would need to be within line of effect and sight. The powers wording could of course make this a nonissue, I am just trying to make sure that is the case.
Secrets Untold 09-09-07, 03:19 PM	What book is Foxhole from? Also, Talon, did you write foxhole?
Fafnir 09-09-07, 03:38 PM	What book is Foxhole from? Also, Talon, did you write foxhole? Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred Press. Who's Talon?
Rechan 09-09-07, 03:54 PM	What book is Foxhole from? http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=24061&it=1
Millenia 09-09-07, 07:20 PM	Who's Talon? A person in these forums who uses the same avatar as Tempest, I would guess.
Rageheart 09-10-07, 02:40 PM	A 20' hole worries me a bit though.. it looks to really only be useful against medium and smaller, non-flying, non-climbing, non-burrowing creatures.. but against those it can easily remove them from the current combat. Don't forget Entangling Ectoplasm will usually bring flying foes down and make climbing out of a hole that much harder.
Scion of Coldshard 09-10-07, 02:52 PM	Don't forget Entangling Ectoplasm will usually bring flying foes down and make climbing out of a hole that much harder. How does entangling ectoplasm bring flying foes down? It does reduce how far they can move in a round to half, but the harshest minimum forward movement speed is half anyway. Am I missing something?
Secrets Untold 09-10-07, 05:16 PM	Sorry, I meant Tempest... I know someone who goes by Talon Silverwing...