Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrStalker 07-25-07, 11:32 PM	Most Energy <something> spells increase the save DC by 1 for every 2 damage dice, which matches the +1DC per spell/power level scaling common throughout most spells and powers. Energy Stun and Energy Missile from the XPH and SRD increase DC by 1 for every die, while these powers in CPsi increase by 1 for every 2 dice. I'm not interested in a strict interpretation of errata vs. updates vs. duplicate spells vs. intent etc. What I am interested is knowing which of these version is better balanced, based on the experience of people who have tried one or the other. PP 1DC/2 1DC/1 3 12 12 5 13 14 7 14 16 9 15 18 11 16 20 13 17 22 15 18 24 17 19 26 19 20 28 (Ignoring INT, DC = 10 + power level (2) + extra DC from augment) Scaling at 1DC/1die looks like it would increase too quickly, but I'm not sure if that's a problem (especially for Energy Stun, a single target spell with 2 saves) What are the opinions of other people who have seen these powers used?
Mesiolan 07-26-07, 05:54 AM	The two powers have been nerfed in CoPsi. Now it's the save augment of every other enrgy power. That's the official answer from WotC to your question. Energy Missile is one of the most powerful psi-powers out there. For 3pp you may deal 3d6+3 HP damage at medium range up to 5 targets. As a third level character. At third level, a psion or wilder may use the power 5-6 times in a row. That outclasses any 3rd level wizard or sorcerer.
aotrscommander 07-26-07, 07:20 AM	Considering the difference in DC is 8 at maximum level, I think that the original XPH version was a typo or just not thought through. It's the equivilent of a DC of a save of an 18th level spell or maneouver (etc) (!) or a 36-HD creature special attack. That's not just better than magic, that better than any other saving throw (including the entire rest of psionics). A +8 difference is massive; and psionics already gets the equivilent of 10th-level powers. Look at it this way, can you imagine what the response to even a 9th spell or maneouver that gave you a +9 to the save DC... While I disagree with some of the Com Psi nerfs, and dislike them not releasing it as errata properly, I do think that it was nessecary, becuase I think it is a problem on several levels Energy Missile in particular, rightly or wrongly (and I lean towards the former) gets psionics a bad rep for being overpowered if the flat XPH book is used, specifically for this issue. I don't think it is balanced; realistically, at top level, it's become a no save effect for a reasonably adept manifester. Worst of all, in my book, it breaks the general rules of all other augmentations.
Jaid 07-26-07, 01:29 PM	can't say that it's a major problem, imo. it doesn't become a huge difference in save DC until upper levels. by which time, direct damage sucks in a huge way anyways, and the least you can do is give a chance for the damage to actually stick, for once.... if they're gonna use a suboptimal attack, may as well let them do it at full suboptimal capability... and for the record, the probability of being in a situation to hit 5 creatures with energy missile is very low. now then, as far as energy stun, just a point: it isn't a 1 target spell, it has a radius (albeit a small one). the damage save isn't really a big deal, imo. the stun effect could probably use a reduction to normal DC, because stunning *is* a big deal. that being said, both powers are noteable for not following the standard pattern. i consider the nerfs in CPsi to be somewhat unnecesary, but not really a big deal.
DrStalker 07-26-07, 07:50 PM	Thanks everyone. I'm going with the 1DC/2die, things will just get out of hand otherwise. I'd like psionics to be seen as a balanced play option, not a hideously broken from bad editing play-option.
Scion of Coldshard 07-26-07, 09:00 PM	For energy missile at least it just isnt that big of a deal. It is a specialist power that only deals energy damage that grants a save and is targetted. Since specialist powers are somewhat equateable to a feat you can ask yourself a simple question: would you allow a feat gave a single, specific energy damage dealing ability +1 DC/level cast/manifested/whatevered at beyond 2nd? This would mean that for a 2nd level power like energy missile its normal DC would range from normal 2nd level save DC up to the equivalent 9th level power with a dc 7 points higher than normal. To me this puts it on almost the same level as energy ray for a single target with energy ray still being slightly ahead. Even if this power at some point actually removed its saving through entirely I still wouldnt care personally, it still wouldnt be overpowered based on its costs and what it does. There are simply too many ways around it as levels go up for it to be that big of a problem.
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 06:38 AM	For energy missile at least it just isnt that big of a deal. It is a specialist power that only deals energy damage that grants a save and is targetted. Since specialist powers are somewhat equateable to a feat you can ask yourself a simple question: would you allow a feat gave a single, specific energy damage dealing ability +1 DC/level cast/manifested/whatevered at beyond 2nd? I wouldn't, no. It scales out of sequence with the saves. Towards the end it nearly effectively becomes a saving throw 'none'. A fairly conservative estimate would be a save DC of 35 at level 20 (DC 28+7 casting stat). You're looking at same around a +20 bonus for a good save assuming (save-boosting gear) and about half to little more for a bad save, giving you a only a 5%-25% of passing. As has been pointed for Energy Stun, by that point it's nearly a save or die anyway. True, the lower level you are, the less this effect will occur, but you're still effectively doubling the level of the spell for save DCs.
Scion of Coldshard 07-27-07, 10:26 AM	It scales out of sequence with the saves. Why does this matter? Towards the end it nearly effectively becomes a saving throw 'none'. As I said earlier, I wouldnt care if eventually it did change to be save 'none' in actuality. Why would it matter? At level 20 is 20d6 with no save for 20 pp really that bad? As has been pointed for Energy Stun, by that point it's nearly a save or die anyway. I havent spoken about energy stun as I am undecided about it. Generally it is roughly a single target ability which grants two saves and if you fail them both plus other immunities/resistances then you are stunned for one round. Even if you have no SR, immunities that matter, and save only on a natural 20 you still are not stunned about 10% of the time. So even under the most perfect circumstances you can hope for you still only get the stun through about 90% of the time. I could go either way about it really, too good or just fine, but if you take away its higher scaling DC I am not sure what to do to make it still be taken. As an example, at higher levels you can generally assume that people will have SR. Lets assume that you break through the SR 80% of the time (not a boss, just a lower level minion guy in high level play). With normal scaling and a little luck you could likely get through one of the saves 70% of the time and the other 50% of the time. This gives you basically a 28% chance to stun most likely one guy for one round. Is it worth it? Also, at higher levels when the save DC for this guy is getting to be tough Power Word: Stun is coming into play which has no save at all and will likely auto stun something for the rest of its life (barring SR, but SR effects both pretty much equally). True, the lower level you are, the less this effect will occur, but you're still effectively doubling the level of the spell for save DCs. Spending a feat to raise all/most of your DC's by 1 is considered to be ok but a little weak. Energy damage in general is typically pretty weak. Making an energy damage power, such as energy missile, have a higher scaling does not look to be all that bad. If we compare it to a ray, which has no save, I see no problem with the faster scaling.
aotrscommander 07-27-07, 12:39 PM	If we compare it to a ray, which has no save, I see no problem with the faster scaling. Rays also have a ranged touch attack, which means you can possibly miss. I think 20D6 (20D6+20 angainst anything not immune to fire, exlcuding Favoured Energy) automatic damage, no save, to multiple targets is a bit much. That's better than Meteor Swarm by quite a margin (not that Meteor Swarm is a powerful 9th level spell, but still). I don't know of any other effect, spell or otherwise that gives you 20D6 damage without an attack roll or save or some type. Granted Meteor Swarm has a blast effect that probably better at clearing mass areas, but I'm looking at the initial point damage, but you have to make four attack rolls and the the secondary targets get four saves too. I'm just not a huge fan of "you're dead, no way to avoid it" (Blasphemy and your little fiends, looking at you) effects. Even Save or dies, have the 'save' part. 20D6 (+20-40) automatic damage is like, two manifestations away from a dead character, with little chance of fracking it up.
Scion of Coldshard 07-27-07, 12:54 PM	Rays also have a ranged touch attack, which means you can possibly miss. You could also potentially crit. Since touch AC's tend to scale much slower than attack bonuses, even poor BAB tends to scale faster, often at some point you are looking at about a 5% chance to miss and about a 5% chance to crit. I think 20D6 (20D6+20 angainst anything not immune to fire, exlcuding Favoured Energy) automatic damage, no save, to multiple targets is a bit much. Immunity and large resistances are more and more common as you go up in level, as are options to make it so that you simply cannot target the creature and SR. Multiple targets is incredibly difficult, especially as levels go up. Getting to hit 2 is likely about the best that you can hope for. 20d6+20 averages out to 90 damage before anything else comes into play. At level 20 90 damage is impressive... when? After taking into account resistances, saving throw, SR, and other defenses the average is likely to be under 50. 20 pp, a standard action, and about 50 points of damage to the target... Sounds like a wasted round against a good portion of level appropriate foes. That's better than Meteor Swarm by quite a margin (not that Meteor Swarm is a powerful 9th level spell, but still). Meteor swarm sucks. Still, you are comparing something that costs 20pp to something that costs effectively 17pp? poor show! Compare equal costs ;) I'm just not a huge fan of "you're dead, no way to avoid it" I am not either, I get rid of them, but this is no where near that unless you are attacking foes with it who have a small hd, no con, and no defenses.. which is basically no one at the levels we are talking about. Who dies to 90 damage and has no resistances at level 20?
Fafnir 07-27-07, 01:00 PM	Who dies to 90 damage and has no resistances at level 20? A +19 LA commoner. :P
Scion of Coldshard 07-27-07, 02:35 PM	A +19 LA commoner. :P I dont have the correct books with me.. but is that something like a 'dread paragon commoner of legend'? ;)
CrimsonDeath 07-27-07, 05:33 PM	Remember, that commoner still has level 20 gear.
DrStalker 07-27-07, 09:30 PM	I dont have the correct books with me.. but is that something like a 'dread paragon commoner of legend'? ;) Half-Tarasque Commoner.
Tedronai 07-29-07, 06:28 PM	I think the problem with these powers is, at it's heart, that they are perceived as too powerful to be accessible at 3rd level. But they do not begin to be particularly powerful until much higher levels, when they in most cases might as well not allow a save. If you're DMing a game, and believe them to be problematic, allow me to propose this solution: Adjust their save DC augmentation as in the CompPsi to 1/2pp, then introduce higher-level powers (available in the case of Energy Missile only to Kineticists or by Expanded Knowledge), perhaps at 7th or 8th, performing a similar function (~D6/pp, hitting automatically, either 1 target or with additional effects), but explicitly allowing no save against the damage. Depending on the books you allow in your campaign for arcane casters, they already have access to comparable resources, something Psionics is notably lacking. (just check out Maw of Chaos in the Spell Compendium and you'll understand that this wouldn't be a big issue - area effect untyped damage with no save, and dealing CL*D6 damage for CL rounds)
DrStalker 07-29-07, 11:25 PM	I'm currently playing in a rotating-GM game, and as I'm the only person with a psion I never have to GM one. :-) As a player I found 1DC/2 levels was fine and fit in nicely with the rest of the group in terms of balance. It also means I can use a single scribbled out Save DC by Damage list to quickly give save DCs when using powers at varying levels. (I hate slowing the game down unnecessarily, so pre-calculating where possible is helpful)
Scion of Coldshard 07-30-07, 12:37 PM	It also means I can use a single scribbled out Save DC by Damage list to quickly give save DCs when using powers at varying levels. (I hate slowing the game down unnecessarily, so pre-calculating where possible is helpful) So are you also changing the slower DC progression powers to be 1:2 as well? Only making the faster ones weaker while ignoring the slower ones doesnt seem all that fair ;)