Equivalent Powers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Equivalent Powers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pukunui
08-18-07, 10:05 PM **SPOILER ALERT: Players in my Absolut Doom Redux campaign must not read this thread!!**

Greetings fellow psionics fans!

Quick question: what would be the closest psionic equivalents to cause fear and disguise self?

I was kind of thinking demoralize could work for the former but couldn't really come up with anything for the latter.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Jonathan
Deekin
08-18-07, 10:44 PM There is no psionic equivilent for some spells, mostly Illusions.
InkBlot
08-18-07, 11:26 PM Psionic suggestion. "Elf? What elf? I'm an just another orc, just like you, so you can go back to patrolling without any worries."

Metamorphosis. A bit higher level, but much more complete of a disguise, and you can disguise yourself as a greater variety of things.

Precognition. Your brief flash of insight into the future grants you a +2 to any check, including disguise checks.

Animal affinity. Channel the regal splendor of the eagle, and boost your charisma (and therefore your disguise checks).

False Sensory Input. This one is rather direct. You fool the target's mind into thinking it sees an orc, instead of an elf (or a whatever-you-aren't instead of a whatever-you-are).

Also, there's a variant egoist (psion) class ability in The Mind's Eye that grants the Minor Change Shape ability of a changeling. It's precisely disguise self, except that the change is physical instead of illusory.
pukunui
08-18-07, 11:56 PM Thanks guys.

The reason I ask is because, in the encounter I'm about to run, there's a bard/mindbender, and I want to change him to a psion/mindbender. He was written as being equipped with wands of cause fear and disguise self, both 1st level spells. I thought I could swap them out for dorjes of something similar. I'll go with demoralize instead of cause fear but I don't know what to choose to replace disguise self. False sensory input sounds promising, but I'm guessing it's higher than 1st level (I can't be bothered to fetch my XPH down from the shelf and check right now).

Cheers,
Jonny
AntiDjinn
08-18-07, 11:58 PM Chameleon: Disguise yourself as part of the background.

Mind Switch/True Mind Switch: What better disguise than to actually wear the person your are impersonating?
pukunui
08-19-07, 12:19 AM Chameleon could work.

The mind switch powers are too high level and wouldn't even be able to be put into a dorje anyway but they are cool.

I think I'll go with chameleon. I'll just decrease the number of charges to balance out the fact that it's a 2nd level power instead of a 1st level one.

So thanks! That's that solved. Back to the number-crunching. If 4e really will mean less work for the DM like they say, I'll be super-psyched when it comes out. I really hate how much time it takes to create NPCs above 1st level with the current ruleset.

EDIT: Whew! There's a big difference in price for 1st level and 2nd level wands/dorjes, isn't there? A 1st level spell/power with 25 charges is 375gp. To get down around that price for a 2nd level spell/power, I have to go all the way down to only 4 charges at 360gp. I'll say it again: whew!

(It's the same with potions, though. 50gp for a 1st level potion and then 300gp for a 2nd level one. Why is that?)

EDIT 2: Just noticed that chameleon is a psychometabolism discipline power and the NPC is a telepath. Oh well, looks like I'll have to give him some ranks in UPD. ;)
AntiDjinn
08-19-07, 12:55 AM If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup.
pukunui
08-19-07, 01:23 AM If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup.
I'm not but thanks. If you are familiar with the Red Hand of Doom, I am rewriting Nurklenak, a hobgoblin mindbender, as a psionic character. He happens to be stationed in a ruined building in a flooded city. I doubt the everyman power would be of much use to him ...

There's a psion in the party and Nurklenak will hopefully be a good challenge for him (as well as a good source of psionic stuff, should the hob fail to escape alive). I had to use all my willpower to resist metagaming and giving him dismiss ectoplasm to counteract the PC psion's predilection for using entangling ectoplasm. Because of the watery terrain, the PC will also more than likely go into ectoplasmic form, and dismiss ectoplasm has dire consequences for anyone using the power if they fail their save against the dismissal (they're either destroyed outright or cast into the Astral Plane). However, if both Nurklenak and the PC psion survive the encounter, I see no reason why the hob might not choose to learn that power in the future ... :evillaugh
InkBlot
08-19-07, 02:36 AM The mind switch powers are too high level and wouldn't even be able to be put into a dorje anyway but they are cool.
There is no limit to the level of powers that can be put into dorjes. There are dorjes of 9th level powers. They cost 114,750 gp. Search your XPH. You know it to be true.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You couldn't give such high level loot to player-characters of that level, there's no logical way such a relatively insignificant npc could attain such a rare expensive item, and it would be too metagamey to give him a dorje with one charge left (which he uses just before encountering the PCs).
pukunui
08-19-07, 02:39 AM There is no limit to the level of powers that can be put into dorjes. There are dorjes of 9th level powers. They cost 114,750 gp. Search your XPH. You know it to be true.You're absolutely right. I've gotten used to having to make wands with psionic powers in eTools in order to "simulate" dorjes ... and the wands only go up to 4th level spells. Oh well.

But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You couldn't give such high level loot to player-characters of that level, there's no logical way such a relatively insignificant npc could attain such a rare expensive item, and it would be too metagamey to give him a dorje with one charge left (which he uses just before encountering the PCs).Exactly. As it is, I think this guy is going to be a pretty tough opponent ... especially considering that he's got a potion of invisibility.
Tempest Stormwind
08-19-07, 06:14 PM If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup.

Everyman has an augment that lets you mimic specific indidviduals, and there's also the Assume Form power which can do similar (although Everyman's better at disguises in general, Assume Form is UTP's variant Polymorph, so it's better at creating *that specific* disguise. Assume Form's higher level and discipline-specific, though).
AntiDjinn
08-19-07, 10:13 PM Given the specific adventure and character, Chameleon is probably the best bet. At the point where the party encounters the hobgoblin they are pretty much ready to shoot on sight. Lookinig like someone or something else won't be of much use since any face other than the party is not going to be considered a friendly. But a +10 hide mod means they probably won't see him at all until he has the upper hand.
pukunui
08-20-07, 03:43 AM Given the specific adventure and character, Chameleon is probably the best bet. At the point where the party encounters the hobgoblin they are pretty much ready to shoot on sight. Lookinig like someone or something else won't be of much use since any face other than the party is not going to be considered a friendly. But a +10 hide mod means they probably won't see him at all until he has the upper hand.
Exactly. I've given him some ranks in UPD so he should be able to use the dorje of chameleon. He also has a potion of invisibility, which should help for a while. But of course as soon as he tries to charm or dominate (or whatever else) anyone, he'll become visible, eh?
forsaken1111
08-21-07, 06:19 PM Exactly. I've given him some ranks in UPD so he should be able to use the dorje of chameleon. He also has a potion of invisibility, which should help for a while. But of course as soon as he tries to charm or dominate (or whatever else) anyone, he'll become visible, eh?

That depends. Psionic manifesting is much easier to keep hidden than spellcasting.
pukunui
08-21-07, 06:24 PM Keep hidden, yes, but if he's invisible, attacking someone with a psionic power (such as psionic charm) will make him visible, no? So even if it just looks like he's standing there not doing anything, he'll still go from not being visible to being visible, which will make the PCs suspicious.
forsaken1111
08-21-07, 06:27 PM Keep hidden, yes, but if he's invisible, attacking someone with a psionic power (such as psionic charm) will make him visible, no? So even if it just looks like he's standing there not doing anything, he'll still go from not being visible to being visible, which will make the PCs suspicious.

Yes but they were talking about hiding, using the hide skill. That isn't negated by manifesting... and if he makes a concentration check to damp down the display there are no visible/audible signs of manifestation to give him away. The PC will either make the save and know something tried to affect him, or fail and be dominated/charmed.
pukunui
08-21-07, 06:44 PM Yes but they were talking about hiding, using the hide skill. That isn't negated by manifesting... and if he makes a concentration check to damp down the display there are no visible/audible signs of manifestation to give him away. The PC will either make the save and know something tried to affect him, or fail and be dominated/charmed.
Right but I was simply referring to the fact that he can walk around invisible until he uses his psionic powers to attack a PC. Then he'll have to rely on chameleon to help him hide.
forsaken1111
08-21-07, 06:45 PM Right but I was simply referring to the fact that he can walk around invisible until he uses his psionic powers to attack a PC. Then he'll have to rely on chameleon to help him hide.

Ahh ok, I misunderstood.

Yes a psionic charm or dominate would indeed cancel invisibility.
AntiDjinn
08-21-07, 07:12 PM IIRC, when my group played through that encounter, the hobgoblin did well with a potion of water breathing. The water is so murky that none of us made our Spot checks to notice him watching up from below the surface. If he has Chameleon and water breathing up, he can observe the party for quite a while and pick his targets and opportunity.
pukunui
08-21-07, 07:14 PM IIRC, when my group played through that encounter, the hobgoblin did well with a potion of water breathing. The water is so murky that none of us made our Spot checks to notice him watching up from below the surface. If he has Chameleon and water breathing up, he can observe the party for quite a while and pick his targets and opportunity.
Interesting. I'm considering making it rain ...
awaken_D_M_golem
08-21-07, 07:25 PM ... cause fear and disguise self ...

Well, with the Erudite's Spell to Power option in Expanded Classes 4, technically speaking, Cause Fear and Disguise Self

are

psionic powers. :D

The big trick is to figure out what discipline they belong to.
I don't have Dragon #349 at hand, but the Psiotheurgist feat clarifies some more details than the basics in XPH. Not just the 5 disciplines that easily convert to schools, but also some Illusions, some shadow stuff, healing, and (teleportation) sub-school spells would become powers of specific disciplines.

And then Necromancy doesn't have a conversion listed anywhere, but a guess is what the Stygian powers have. Now you have to open CPsi, and make a save against lesser sicken-ing.

Stick 'em on a Tap Mantle feat ... perhaps Deception mantle.
pukunui
08-21-07, 07:41 PM Well, with the Erudite's Spell to Power option in Expanded Classes 4, technically speaking, Cause Fear and Disguise Self

are

psionic powers. :D

The big trick is to figure out what discipline they belong to.
I don't have Dragon #349 at hand, but the Psiotheurgist feat clarifies some more details than the basics in XPH. Not just the 5 disciplines that easily convert to schools, but also some Illusions, some shadow stuff, healing, and (teleportation) sub-school spells would become powers of specific disciplines.

And then Necromancy doesn't have a conversion listed anywhere, but a guess is what the Stygian powers have. Now you have to open CPsi, and make a save against lesser sicken-ing.

Stick 'em on a Tap Mantle feat ... perhaps Deception mantle.
Thanks but that's a bit too complicated for me. I think I've got it all sorted anyway.
forsaken1111
08-21-07, 07:57 PM Thanks but that's a bit too complicated for me. I think I've got it all sorted anyway.

He's just saying you could have dorjes of those two spells made as powers by an erudite. Its legal.
InkBlot
08-22-07, 01:37 AM It's only legal if Pukunui decides to allow the variant erudite from the Mind's Eye into his game. It's as legal as any other houserule.
forsaken1111
08-22-07, 02:12 AM It's only legal if Pukunui decides to allow the variant erudite from the Mind's Eye into his game. It's as legal as any other houserule.

House rules are a completely different thing from an official article offering an alternate class ability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 08-18-07, 10:05 PM	SPOILER ALERT: Players in my Absolut Doom Redux campaign must not read this thread!! Greetings fellow psionics fans! Quick question: what would be the closest psionic equivalents to cause fear and disguise self? I was kind of thinking demoralize could work for the former but couldn't really come up with anything for the latter. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Jonathan
Deekin 08-18-07, 10:44 PM	There is no psionic equivilent for some spells, mostly Illusions.
InkBlot 08-18-07, 11:26 PM	Psionic suggestion. "Elf? What elf? I'm an just another orc, just like you, so you can go back to patrolling without any worries." Metamorphosis. A bit higher level, but much more complete of a disguise, and you can disguise yourself as a greater variety of things. Precognition. Your brief flash of insight into the future grants you a +2 to any check, including disguise checks. Animal affinity. Channel the regal splendor of the eagle, and boost your charisma (and therefore your disguise checks). False Sensory Input. This one is rather direct. You fool the target's mind into thinking it sees an orc, instead of an elf (or a whatever-you-aren't instead of a whatever-you-are). Also, there's a variant egoist (psion) class ability in The Mind's Eye that grants the Minor Change Shape ability of a changeling. It's precisely disguise self, except that the change is physical instead of illusory.
pukunui 08-18-07, 11:56 PM	Thanks guys. The reason I ask is because, in the encounter I'm about to run, there's a bard/mindbender, and I want to change him to a psion/mindbender. He was written as being equipped with wands of cause fear and disguise self, both 1st level spells. I thought I could swap them out for dorjes of something similar. I'll go with demoralize instead of cause fear but I don't know what to choose to replace disguise self. False sensory input sounds promising, but I'm guessing it's higher than 1st level (I can't be bothered to fetch my XPH down from the shelf and check right now). Cheers, Jonny
AntiDjinn 08-18-07, 11:58 PM	Chameleon: Disguise yourself as part of the background. Mind Switch/True Mind Switch: What better disguise than to actually wear the person your are impersonating?
pukunui 08-19-07, 12:19 AM	Chameleon could work. The mind switch powers are too high level and wouldn't even be able to be put into a dorje anyway but they are cool. I think I'll go with chameleon. I'll just decrease the number of charges to balance out the fact that it's a 2nd level power instead of a 1st level one. So thanks! That's that solved. Back to the number-crunching. If 4e really will mean less work for the DM like they say, I'll be super-psyched when it comes out. I really hate how much time it takes to create NPCs above 1st level with the current ruleset. EDIT: Whew! There's a big difference in price for 1st level and 2nd level wands/dorjes, isn't there? A 1st level spell/power with 25 charges is 375gp. To get down around that price for a 2nd level spell/power, I have to go all the way down to only 4 charges at 360gp. I'll say it again: whew! (It's the same with potions, though. 50gp for a 1st level potion and then 300gp for a 2nd level one. Why is that?) EDIT 2: Just noticed that chameleon is a psychometabolism discipline power and the NPC is a telepath. Oh well, looks like I'll have to give him some ranks in UPD. ;)
AntiDjinn 08-19-07, 12:55 AM	If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup.
pukunui 08-19-07, 01:23 AM	If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup. I'm not but thanks. If you are familiar with the Red Hand of Doom, I am rewriting Nurklenak, a hobgoblin mindbender, as a psionic character. He happens to be stationed in a ruined building in a flooded city. I doubt the everyman power would be of much use to him ... There's a psion in the party and Nurklenak will hopefully be a good challenge for him (as well as a good source of psionic stuff, should the hob fail to escape alive). I had to use all my willpower to resist metagaming and giving him dismiss ectoplasm to counteract the PC psion's predilection for using entangling ectoplasm. Because of the watery terrain, the PC will also more than likely go into ectoplasmic form, and dismiss ectoplasm has dire consequences for anyone using the power if they fail their save against the dismissal (they're either destroyed outright or cast into the Astral Plane). However, if both Nurklenak and the PC psion survive the encounter, I see no reason why the hob might not choose to learn that power in the future ... :evillaugh
InkBlot 08-19-07, 02:36 AM	The mind switch powers are too high level and wouldn't even be able to be put into a dorje anyway but they are cool. There is no limit to the level of powers that can be put into dorjes. There are dorjes of 9th level powers. They cost 114,750 gp. Search your XPH. You know it to be true. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You couldn't give such high level loot to player-characters of that level, there's no logical way such a relatively insignificant npc could attain such a rare expensive item, and it would be too metagamey to give him a dorje with one charge left (which he uses just before encountering the PCs).
pukunui 08-19-07, 02:39 AM	There is no limit to the level of powers that can be put into dorjes. There are dorjes of 9th level powers. They cost 114,750 gp. Search your XPH. You know it to be true.You're absolutely right. I've gotten used to having to make wands with psionic powers in eTools in order to "simulate" dorjes ... and the wands only go up to 4th level spells. Oh well. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. You couldn't give such high level loot to player-characters of that level, there's no logical way such a relatively insignificant npc could attain such a rare expensive item, and it would be too metagamey to give him a dorje with one charge left (which he uses just before encountering the PCs).Exactly. As it is, I think this guy is going to be a pretty tough opponent ... especially considering that he's got a potion of invisibility.
Tempest Stormwind 08-19-07, 06:14 PM	If you are using Untapped Potential, there is also Everyman; a power that makes you look average. Instead of making you look like a specific individual, it makes you look so generic that no one will pick you out of a lineup. Everyman has an augment that lets you mimic specific indidviduals, and there's also the Assume Form power which can do similar (although Everyman's better at disguises in general, Assume Form is UTP's variant Polymorph, so it's better at creating that specific disguise. Assume Form's higher level and discipline-specific, though).
AntiDjinn 08-19-07, 10:13 PM	Given the specific adventure and character, Chameleon is probably the best bet. At the point where the party encounters the hobgoblin they are pretty much ready to shoot on sight. Lookinig like someone or something else won't be of much use since any face other than the party is not going to be considered a friendly. But a +10 hide mod means they probably won't see him at all until he has the upper hand.
pukunui 08-20-07, 03:43 AM	Given the specific adventure and character, Chameleon is probably the best bet. At the point where the party encounters the hobgoblin they are pretty much ready to shoot on sight. Lookinig like someone or something else won't be of much use since any face other than the party is not going to be considered a friendly. But a +10 hide mod means they probably won't see him at all until he has the upper hand. Exactly. I've given him some ranks in UPD so he should be able to use the dorje of chameleon. He also has a potion of invisibility, which should help for a while. But of course as soon as he tries to charm or dominate (or whatever else) anyone, he'll become visible, eh?
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:19 PM	Exactly. I've given him some ranks in UPD so he should be able to use the dorje of chameleon. He also has a potion of invisibility, which should help for a while. But of course as soon as he tries to charm or dominate (or whatever else) anyone, he'll become visible, eh? That depends. Psionic manifesting is much easier to keep hidden than spellcasting.
pukunui 08-21-07, 06:24 PM	Keep hidden, yes, but if he's invisible, attacking someone with a psionic power (such as psionic charm) will make him visible, no? So even if it just looks like he's standing there not doing anything, he'll still go from not being visible to being visible, which will make the PCs suspicious.
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:27 PM	Keep hidden, yes, but if he's invisible, attacking someone with a psionic power (such as psionic charm) will make him visible, no? So even if it just looks like he's standing there not doing anything, he'll still go from not being visible to being visible, which will make the PCs suspicious. Yes but they were talking about hiding, using the hide skill. That isn't negated by manifesting... and if he makes a concentration check to damp down the display there are no visible/audible signs of manifestation to give him away. The PC will either make the save and know something tried to affect him, or fail and be dominated/charmed.
pukunui 08-21-07, 06:44 PM	Yes but they were talking about hiding, using the hide skill. That isn't negated by manifesting... and if he makes a concentration check to damp down the display there are no visible/audible signs of manifestation to give him away. The PC will either make the save and know something tried to affect him, or fail and be dominated/charmed. Right but I was simply referring to the fact that he can walk around invisible until he uses his psionic powers to attack a PC. Then he'll have to rely on chameleon to help him hide.
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 06:45 PM	Right but I was simply referring to the fact that he can walk around invisible until he uses his psionic powers to attack a PC. Then he'll have to rely on chameleon to help him hide. Ahh ok, I misunderstood. Yes a psionic charm or dominate would indeed cancel invisibility.
AntiDjinn 08-21-07, 07:12 PM	IIRC, when my group played through that encounter, the hobgoblin did well with a potion of water breathing. The water is so murky that none of us made our Spot checks to notice him watching up from below the surface. If he has Chameleon and water breathing up, he can observe the party for quite a while and pick his targets and opportunity.
pukunui 08-21-07, 07:14 PM	IIRC, when my group played through that encounter, the hobgoblin did well with a potion of water breathing. The water is so murky that none of us made our Spot checks to notice him watching up from below the surface. If he has Chameleon and water breathing up, he can observe the party for quite a while and pick his targets and opportunity. Interesting. I'm considering making it rain ...
awaken_D_M_golem 08-21-07, 07:25 PM	... cause fear and disguise self ... Well, with the Erudite's Spell to Power option in Expanded Classes 4, technically speaking, Cause Fear and Disguise Self are psionic powers. :D The big trick is to figure out what discipline they belong to. I don't have Dragon #349 at hand, but the Psiotheurgist feat clarifies some more details than the basics in XPH. Not just the 5 disciplines that easily convert to schools, but also some Illusions, some shadow stuff, healing, and (teleportation) sub-school spells would become powers of specific disciplines. And then Necromancy doesn't have a conversion listed anywhere, but a guess is what the Stygian powers have. Now you have to open CPsi, and make a save against lesser sicken-ing. Stick 'em on a Tap Mantle feat ... perhaps Deception mantle.
pukunui 08-21-07, 07:41 PM	Well, with the Erudite's Spell to Power option in Expanded Classes 4, technically speaking, Cause Fear and Disguise Self are psionic powers. :D The big trick is to figure out what discipline they belong to. I don't have Dragon #349 at hand, but the Psiotheurgist feat clarifies some more details than the basics in XPH. Not just the 5 disciplines that easily convert to schools, but also some Illusions, some shadow stuff, healing, and (teleportation) sub-school spells would become powers of specific disciplines. And then Necromancy doesn't have a conversion listed anywhere, but a guess is what the Stygian powers have. Now you have to open CPsi, and make a save against lesser sicken-ing. Stick 'em on a Tap Mantle feat ... perhaps Deception mantle. Thanks but that's a bit too complicated for me. I think I've got it all sorted anyway.
forsaken1111 08-21-07, 07:57 PM	Thanks but that's a bit too complicated for me. I think I've got it all sorted anyway. He's just saying you could have dorjes of those two spells made as powers by an erudite. Its legal.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 01:37 AM	It's only legal if Pukunui decides to allow the variant erudite from the Mind's Eye into his game. It's as legal as any other houserule.
forsaken1111 08-22-07, 02:12 AM	It's only legal if Pukunui decides to allow the variant erudite from the Mind's Eye into his game. It's as legal as any other houserule. House rules are a completely different thing from an official article offering an alternate class ability.