Erudite at 5th level, seeking assistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Erudite at 5th level, seeking assistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JohnnyArkham
04-30-08, 08:12 PM Been tossing around the idea of playing an Erudite and, as the title says, he'd be starting at 5th level. Would be a Gnome (as mentioned in a few of my other fact-finding threads).

I have a couple of questions;

1)Is there a fair way to determine how many Powers a 5th level Erudite 'should' know? There's the obvious per level +Int modifier number he should know...but is there a generic average or something out there?

2)What are some good Feats for the Erudite? Anything in particular that might call out to the budding Power-finder?

3)Any other Erudite suggestions?

4)Is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) 'Convert Spell to Power' system even remotely balanced? Sounds wide-open to twinkage.
Suspect_Unusual
04-30-08, 09:43 PM 1. Since learning powers cost XP, if you're mathematically inclined (or know someone who is) you could massage the formula to figure out how much extra XP you coudl spend at lower levels and catch up such that you'd end up at 4th level with everyone else...

2. Try to find the Dragon Magazine where they introduce the erudite class (don't use that version, though... you end up with more unique powers per day than a psion has powers KNOWN per day. *facepalm*). Things that boost already versatile powers (like, say, Boost Construct, for Astral Construct) are always good. Overchannel/Talented is always fun, and you can get a lot out of the Psicrystal feats, given your free Psicrystal Affinity.

3. Kick ass, take names, and don't die.

4. Not even remotely, unless you purposefully avoid, well, almost everything. Put something as broken as some spells are on the (arguably) better chassis of psionics and, well, DM-guided rocks will fall and Erudites will die.
Lycanthromancer
04-30-08, 10:41 PM Psionic Item Creation feats are always good for an erudite, especially Imprint Stone, Craft Psionic Tattoo, and Craft Dorje. I know they eat up feats and XP, but you'll be happy to get around your unique powers per day restriction (and extend your pp reserve) by using your items.

That is, assuming the DM gives you enough gold and downtime to make use of them. If not, buy some extra power stones using your starting gold and wait until you get psychic reformation to switch those feats out at will for whenever you DO get the time to make them.

Unless your DM starts you out with X number of XP between level 5 and 6 (thereby giving you extra to spend) or he lets you spend gold to memorize them instead of XP (1 XP = 5 gp), you can either start out at 4th level and ride the XP 'gravy train' and have plenty of powers known, or you can tough it out and have your base minimum. Otherwise, you'll have to talk to your DM about it.

As for other feats, definitely take those that will either work with the staple powers you plan to use pretty much every day, or the ones that will work with a large number of your powers. For instance, Extend Power is useful if you have lots of duration powers, Overchannel is great for increasing your powers' punch (for pretty much anything), and Psicrystal Affinity is ALWAYS awesome (though you get that as a bonus feat).

What race are you? If you go warforged, Mithral Body or Adamantine Body are good options (depending on your Dexterity). Human and Changeling can always take Able Learner (which is great for making use of your myriad skill points).

There are also some psionic feats in Magic of Incarnum that are always worth looking at.
QuarianRex
05-01-08, 02:02 AM 4)Is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) 'Convert Spell to Power' system even remotely balanced? Sounds wide-open to twinkage.

Don't be frightened by this extremely interesting option. People tend to be quite reactionary when they first hear of it. They tend to think that if Psions get their hands on spells the Earth will crack asunder and consume all of our women-folk.

Just remember that there are some major restrictions on it that may not be obvious at first glance. First, you can only learn spells of one level lower than your maximum, the same as learning Discipline powers. Your shiny new toys have been getting used and abused by the party Wizard for the past two levels. This means that by the time you can use a spell it is already obsolete. Obsolete is bad for spells. Remember the cardinal rule when making a spellcaster?

Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels.

The highest level of spells available at a given character level tends to offer a massive advantage over equivalently leveled foes. A Wizard who doesn't use his highest level of spells is MUCH less of a threat. You are (potentially) gaining access to the repertoire of such a gimped caster.

Second, you cannot choose what spells you have access to. You are not a Wizard. You cannot choose arcane spells upon level-up and you cannot research an arcane spell. This means that your DM essentially has COMPLETE control over the benefits you receive from this option. Your DM has reservations about you using Wraithstrike (or whatever) as a Psionic Power? You just won't find a mage/spellbook with that spell.

And finally, the inherent restrictions of the Erudite, limited Unique Powers per day, are a great limiting factor for this option. Remember that psionic powers tend to be built with an innate flexibility, spells are not. Fireball is a great spell until you are attacked by a Fire Elemental. Energy Ball is a much better option, allowing you to change energy types on the fly without sacrificing another Unique power slot. The Summon Monster line of spells is unquestionably useful but each different level of the spell would require another Unique Power slot. Astral Construct is a much better option for an Erudites meatshield/trap-springing needs.

Most useful spells already have psionic analogues and so won't be very useful to you. Those spells that don't have a psionic counterpart tend to be more specialized, and therefore powerful in certain situations yet nigh useless in most. Are you willing to spend a Unique Power slot on a spell/power that is perfect for one single round and then be dead weight the rest of the day?

This is the traditional dilemma of the Erudite but compounded by the endless variety of published spells.

In the end, the Spell-to-Power option for the Erudite is not overpowered, just more complex. It is at once far more versatile and far more limited than a same leveled Wizard. It is not a Herald of the Apocalypse and it will not eat your children.
The_Mess
05-01-08, 08:41 AM I thought that, the last time this came up, there was some discussion of a few spells that really were quite broken in Erudite hands. One specifically I remember gave a caster temporary power points and a few psion-like powers to use them on. The net result for the erudite was spend a few pp to get a lot of them.
Suspect_Unusual
05-01-08, 01:49 PM How about a list of potentially worthwhile spells to take as powers?

Color Spray
Invisibility, Greater Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Silent Image
Alter Self
Explosive Runes
Arcane Sight
Blink
Haste
Shrink Item
Evard's Black Tentacles
Solid Fog
Resilient Sphere
Enervation
Animate Dead
Wall of Stone
Feeblemind
Wall of Force
Telekinesis (only because the psionic versions are stuck with 3rd and 4th level power DCs...)
Forcecage
Simulacrum
Limited Wish
Prismatic Wall
Polymorph Any Object
Circle of Death
Create Undead

Those were the spells from the PHB that caught my eye, at least.
AntiDjinn
05-01-08, 02:52 PM Situations like this are why when I start characters above level 1, I give them an XP total instead of a character level. The XP can be used to pay for character levels, to start with powers/spells that would have cost XP to learn, including previous independent spell/power research, to start with items (for which they have the feats to craft), to buy off a level adjustment (if the character level is sufficient), or to pay for effects such as a prior Incarnate.

Regarding spell to power conversion (if your DM is using it): Choose very carefully. Since it requires you to give up a feat, only take it if there are several spells you want to convert. If it is just one or two, then use the independent power research rules; you can already research a power that just happens to duplicate a spell. Note that while spell to power conversions gain augmentation for damage (you need it, since damage is otherwise capped at minimum) they do not gain DC augmentation. A Lightningbolt power DC is set at 3rd level just as the spell is. So don't select spells for which this is going to be a problem later. Take defensive, movement, and utility spells. For offense, chose spells that don't allow a save. Then, for all your hard work, you will have a power that you never stop using. Also, given that your main limitation is UPD, take spells with multiple applications so one slot gives you many options.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnnyArkham 04-30-08, 08:12 PM	Been tossing around the idea of playing an Erudite and, as the title says, he'd be starting at 5th level. Would be a Gnome (as mentioned in a few of my other fact-finding threads). I have a couple of questions; 1)Is there a fair way to determine how many Powers a 5th level Erudite 'should' know? There's the obvious per level +Int modifier number he should know...but is there a generic average or something out there? 2)What are some good Feats for the Erudite? Anything in particular that might call out to the budding Power-finder? 3)Any other Erudite suggestions? 4)Is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) 'Convert Spell to Power' system even remotely balanced? Sounds wide-open to twinkage.
Suspect_Unusual 04-30-08, 09:43 PM	1. Since learning powers cost XP, if you're mathematically inclined (or know someone who is) you could massage the formula to figure out how much extra XP you coudl spend at lower levels and catch up such that you'd end up at 4th level with everyone else... 2. Try to find the Dragon Magazine where they introduce the erudite class (don't use that version, though... you end up with more unique powers per day than a psion has powers KNOWN per day. facepalm). Things that boost already versatile powers (like, say, Boost Construct, for Astral Construct) are always good. Overchannel/Talented is always fun, and you can get a lot out of the Psicrystal feats, given your free Psicrystal Affinity. 3. Kick ass, take names, and don't die. 4. Not even remotely, unless you purposefully avoid, well, almost everything. Put something as broken as some spells are on the (arguably) better chassis of psionics and, well, DM-guided rocks will fall and Erudites will die.
Lycanthromancer 04-30-08, 10:41 PM	Psionic Item Creation feats are always good for an erudite, especially Imprint Stone, Craft Psionic Tattoo, and Craft Dorje. I know they eat up feats and XP, but you'll be happy to get around your unique powers per day restriction (and extend your pp reserve) by using your items. That is, assuming the DM gives you enough gold and downtime to make use of them. If not, buy some extra power stones using your starting gold and wait until you get psychic reformation to switch those feats out at will for whenever you DO get the time to make them. Unless your DM starts you out with X number of XP between level 5 and 6 (thereby giving you extra to spend) or he lets you spend gold to memorize them instead of XP (1 XP = 5 gp), you can either start out at 4th level and ride the XP 'gravy train' and have plenty of powers known, or you can tough it out and have your base minimum. Otherwise, you'll have to talk to your DM about it. As for other feats, definitely take those that will either work with the staple powers you plan to use pretty much every day, or the ones that will work with a large number of your powers. For instance, Extend Power is useful if you have lots of duration powers, Overchannel is great for increasing your powers' punch (for pretty much anything), and Psicrystal Affinity is ALWAYS awesome (though you get that as a bonus feat). What race are you? If you go warforged, Mithral Body or Adamantine Body are good options (depending on your Dexterity). Human and Changeling can always take Able Learner (which is great for making use of your myriad skill points). There are also some psionic feats in Magic of Incarnum that are always worth looking at.
QuarianRex 05-01-08, 02:02 AM	4)Is this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) 'Convert Spell to Power' system even remotely balanced? Sounds wide-open to twinkage. Don't be frightened by this extremely interesting option. People tend to be quite reactionary when they first hear of it. They tend to think that if Psions get their hands on spells the Earth will crack asunder and consume all of our women-folk. Just remember that there are some major restrictions on it that may not be obvious at first glance. First, you can only learn spells of one level lower than your maximum, the same as learning Discipline powers. Your shiny new toys have been getting used and abused by the party Wizard for the past two levels. This means that by the time you can use a spell it is already obsolete. Obsolete is bad for spells. Remember the cardinal rule when making a spellcaster? Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels. The highest level of spells available at a given character level tends to offer a massive advantage over equivalently leveled foes. A Wizard who doesn't use his highest level of spells is MUCH less of a threat. You are (potentially) gaining access to the repertoire of such a gimped caster. Second, you cannot choose what spells you have access to. You are not a Wizard. You cannot choose arcane spells upon level-up and you cannot research an arcane spell. This means that your DM essentially has COMPLETE control over the benefits you receive from this option. Your DM has reservations about you using Wraithstrike (or whatever) as a Psionic Power? You just won't find a mage/spellbook with that spell. And finally, the inherent restrictions of the Erudite, limited Unique Powers per day, are a great limiting factor for this option. Remember that psionic powers tend to be built with an innate flexibility, spells are not. Fireball is a great spell until you are attacked by a Fire Elemental. Energy Ball is a much better option, allowing you to change energy types on the fly without sacrificing another Unique power slot. The Summon Monster line of spells is unquestionably useful but each different level of the spell would require another Unique Power slot. Astral Construct is a much better option for an Erudites meatshield/trap-springing needs. Most useful spells already have psionic analogues and so won't be very useful to you. Those spells that don't have a psionic counterpart tend to be more specialized, and therefore powerful in certain situations yet nigh useless in most. Are you willing to spend a Unique Power slot on a spell/power that is perfect for one single round and then be dead weight the rest of the day? This is the traditional dilemma of the Erudite but compounded by the endless variety of published spells. In the end, the Spell-to-Power option for the Erudite is not overpowered, just more complex. It is at once far more versatile and far more limited than a same leveled Wizard. It is not a Herald of the Apocalypse and it will not eat your children.
The_Mess 05-01-08, 08:41 AM	I thought that, the last time this came up, there was some discussion of a few spells that really were quite broken in Erudite hands. One specifically I remember gave a caster temporary power points and a few psion-like powers to use them on. The net result for the erudite was spend a few pp to get a lot of them.
Suspect_Unusual 05-01-08, 01:49 PM	How about a list of potentially worthwhile spells to take as powers? Color Spray Invisibility, Greater Invisibility Touch of Idiocy Silent Image Alter Self Explosive Runes Arcane Sight Blink Haste Shrink Item Evard's Black Tentacles Solid Fog Resilient Sphere Enervation Animate Dead Wall of Stone Feeblemind Wall of Force Telekinesis (only because the psionic versions are stuck with 3rd and 4th level power DCs...) Forcecage Simulacrum Limited Wish Prismatic Wall Polymorph Any Object Circle of Death Create Undead Those were the spells from the PHB that caught my eye, at least.
AntiDjinn 05-01-08, 02:52 PM	Situations like this are why when I start characters above level 1, I give them an XP total instead of a character level. The XP can be used to pay for character levels, to start with powers/spells that would have cost XP to learn, including previous independent spell/power research, to start with items (for which they have the feats to craft), to buy off a level adjustment (if the character level is sufficient), or to pay for effects such as a prior Incarnate. Regarding spell to power conversion (if your DM is using it): Choose very carefully. Since it requires you to give up a feat, only take it if there are several spells you want to convert. If it is just one or two, then use the independent power research rules; you can already research a power that just happens to duplicate a spell. Note that while spell to power conversions gain augmentation for damage (you need it, since damage is otherwise capped at minimum) they do not gain DC augmentation. A Lightningbolt power DC is set at 3rd level just as the spell is. So don't select spells for which this is going to be a problem later. Take defensive, movement, and utility spells. For offense, chose spells that don't allow a save. Then, for all your hard work, you will have a power that you never stop using. Also, given that your main limitation is UPD, take spells with multiple applications so one slot gives you many options.