Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andramadus 06-30-07, 03:19 PM	Does the number of unique powers listed give the that many times a day, making it so a 20th level erudite can use his powers eleven times then looses the ability to use his powers? or Does he get eleven powers to use that day as many times as he wants? Do the powers need to be pre selected, or can he decide as he goes?
lint trap 06-30-07, 03:22 PM	He can use eleven different powers each day. He can use them as many times as he likes, as long as he pays the power point cost.
Andramadus 06-30-07, 03:45 PM	So do you pick them as you go or on the fly?
d24478667 06-30-07, 04:04 PM	When you manifest a power, that becomes one of the unique powers you can use the rest of the day.
Khan the Destroyer 06-30-07, 06:45 PM	An Erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repetoire of powers he knows, according to his class level... I really can't see how to interpret that as 11 total unique powers as opposed to 11 total for each level of powers. I understand that everyone uses it one way, but I don't see how the text supports it.
AntiDjinn 06-30-07, 06:54 PM	So you are seeing 99 different powers per day (11 of each power level) as a limitation sufficient to balance his ability to know a functionally unlimited number of powers? What kind of limitation is that when a 20th level psion only knows 36 powers. A psion who knows 36 powers can manifest up to 36 different powers in one day, but an erudite is limited to only 99?
Khan the Destroyer 06-30-07, 07:15 PM	No, I don't think 99 powers is a limitation. I'm just answering the question according to the text. I'm not saying it's how I would use it, or that it's not overpowered, or grossly inconsistent. But it's curious that we all agree it's 11 unique powers total per day, when the text really says otherwise. Like a silent agreement between all of us.
Nite_shade 06-30-07, 09:59 PM	Copy and paste is the bane of D&D rule books. Would you guys agree?
CrimsonDeath 06-30-07, 10:47 PM	I don't think it's so curious, Khan. The text in question was from Complete Psionic.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 01:29 AM	So which is it 11 powers a day? or 11 of each level? Pick as you go? or Pre selected?
AntiDjinn 07-01-07, 01:41 AM	Comp Psi says each unique power is selected at use. At the start of the day your erudite has the choice of any of his considerable repertoire of powers. Each time you manifest a different power it becomes locked as one of your unique powers for that day. You don't have to pick at the beginning of the day, you select on the fly. It is a good idea to plan your power selection in advance, so you wind up with a set of powers that works well in combination, but you are not locked in to a selection until you manifest it. I suspect the majority of erudites are especially careful when deciding on the power to use as their last unique power slot for the day; you would hate it if you have 4 per day, have used 4 different powers, and then hit a situation where one of your other powers known would be perfect.
Nite_shade 07-01-07, 01:41 AM	I think most would agree that it is 11 powers a day. You can choose as you go, but once you choose one it's "locked in" as one of your unique powers for that day. Or see above. ;D
Andramadus 07-01-07, 02:14 AM	I have been doing some thinking and there's no way WOTC would make the following 5th level Erudite 3 powers a day. Then the party's over But I do think they would have: 5th level Erudite 3 -1st 3 -2nd 3 -3rd
anarchy1973 07-01-07, 02:26 AM	I guess a balancing factor is still that the Erudite does not have a limitless supply of PP's. Still it is worded poorly.
Nite_shade 07-01-07, 03:02 AM	The party isn't over... He can manifest those 3 powers he chose an unlimited amount of times. He just can't use any "new" ones.
Wizard Random 07-01-07, 08:05 AM	Like a silent agreement between all of us. Once agian you are quoted sir!
Suldarr'essalar 07-01-07, 10:09 AM	I didn't want to start a new thread: can erudite learn powers from other power list's than psion/wilder + discipline? In other word, can he learn (using learning discipline powers rules) powers from psychic warrior's power list? It would be strange if he didn't since he can learn spells.
QuarianRex 07-01-07, 10:57 AM	I didn't want to start a new thread: can erudite learn powers from other power list's than psion/wilder + discipline? In other word, can he learn (using learning discipline powers rules) powers from psychic warrior's power list? It would be strange if he didn't since he can learn spells. No he can't. The attempt to understand the power is automatically failed "if the selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists" (Complete Psionic p. 154). You can still learn Psychic Warrior/Ardent/etc. powers through normal psionic research though. The "certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day" line in the Complete Psionic is a copy/paste error from the original Erudite article that appeared in Dragon Magazine. In that first 3.0 version the Erudites unique powers were per level (having the same progression as a Wizards base memorized spells). They changed it to total powers per day to better balance it but the editor was a little lazy. Also note that with the way powers scale in 3.5 (where a single power can be used at varying levels of power) this isn't as crippling as it may seem.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 11:04 AM	Originally Posted by Complete Psionic, page 153 An Erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repetoire of powers he knows, according to his class level
QuarianRex 07-01-07, 11:10 AM	Again, that is a copy/paste error from the original 3.0 Erudite article in Dragon #319. Harping on a typo to try and justify 99 unique powers per day as a limitation is a little silly.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 11:40 AM	Its from the Comp Psi book
Fafnir 07-01-07, 11:46 AM	Its from the Comp Psi book ... and a copy/paste error. CPsi is full of those.
Azzy 07-01-07, 12:02 PM	I really can't see how to interpret that as 11 total unique powers as opposed to 11 total for each level of powers. I'll show you how (with stunning logic): 11 total for each level of powers is just :censored: sick!!! So, a strict interpretation of the RAW suggests only one clear interpretation--that any DM with at least one functional brain cell should ignore this particular instance of the RAW and find an interpretation that is fair and balanced. :D
Andramadus 07-01-07, 12:10 PM	But that at level 20
Azzy 07-01-07, 12:56 PM	And here's what it would like at all 20 levels: http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/346/346262/folders/265727/2178033Wizard-EruditeComparison(small).jpg I stand by my previous assertion.
Suldarr'essalar 07-01-07, 12:59 PM	No he can't. The attempt to understand the power is automatically failed "if the selected power is not on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists" (Complete Psionic p. 154). You can still learn Psychic Warrior/Ardent/etc. powers through normal psionic research though.That's just insane. He can learn any spell, but cannot learn some powers? Ok, thanks. And as for the question on unique powers known: Everybody agrees that 99 power limitation is broken, and is an error, and no one will use it in that shape, but that's RAW. If you change an error from the text it is no longer RAW.
CrimsonDeath 07-01-07, 01:05 PM	10 powers of each level per day is sick. 9 powers of each level per day is sick. 8 powers of each level per day is sick. 7 powers of each level per day is overpowered. 6 powers of each level per day is overpowered. If we use the psion as a guide, 5 powers of each level per day is overpowered after level 2, and 4 powers of each level per day is overpowered after level 10. Why do I say that? Because if the psion always learns the highest-level power he can, he can know 5 level 1 and 9 powers, 4 level 2-5 powers, and 3 level 6-8 powers. Would you like to know another reason the Erudite's 11 unique powers per day is balanced? The Wilder. The Wilder only knows 11 powers, ever, at level 20. So the Erudite has the career flexibility of a Wizard, with as many powers has he has the resources to learn, but pays for it with the daily versatility of a Wilder.
Azzy 07-01-07, 01:18 PM	Again, that is a copy/paste error from the original 3.0 Erudite article in Dragon #319. I've got to nitpick. The erudite only ever appeared as a fully 3.5 class, it was first published in Dragon 319 in support of the newly released XPH. Prior to it, there were four "Expanded Psionics Preview" articles for the XPH in issues 314, 316, 317 & 318. These featured, in addition to previewing new and revised rules, new material that wasn't present in the XPH, itself.
Andramadus 07-01-07, 01:20 PM	I think you guys are missing whats really balanceing about the raw Complete Psi and that is the psionic character only has enough power to manifest his ability's a certain number of times at lower levels he can only act a few times, within the limits of his power points ,and at higher levels he can do alot more, but within the limits of his power points same as a psion but with a wider selection.
Azzy 07-01-07, 02:14 PM	I think you guys are missing whats really balanceing about the raw Complete Psi and that is the psionic character only has enough power to manifest his ability's a certain number of times at lower levels he can only act a few times, within the limits of his power points ,and at higher levels he can do alot more, but within the limits of his power points same as a psion but with a wider selection. I've edited the tables to provide a comparison of the erudite's power points and the wizard's spell slots converted to effective power points. I continue to stand by my previous assertion.
kyeudo 07-01-07, 03:27 PM	Anyone who plays with "My Erudite can manifest 11 powers of each level per day" should be slapped hard, then have their CompPsi shredded, as it is obvious the bad edditting of CompPsi is starding to rot their brain. The only sensible inertretation is that a Erudite has 11 unique powers at level 20, not 99, especialy because of the scaling nature of psionics. You still use crystal shard at 20th level for crying out loud!
CrimsonDeath 07-01-07, 05:06 PM	You still use crystal shard at 20th level for crying out loud! Well, you did before it was subject to DR...
kyeudo 07-01-07, 05:12 PM	Even subject to DR, which is retarded, Crystal shard can do more than enough damage to puch through DR 10 at level 3, if just barely, and DR 20 is uncommon, so at levels of 6 and up even DR appling doesn't hurt it too much. I refuse to use that moronic piece of errata until spells become subject to DR as well.
Khan the Destroyer 07-01-07, 05:33 PM	Once agian you are quoted sir! Heck Yeah! :w00t: I'll show you how (with stunning logic): 11 total for each level of powers is just :censored: sick!!! I find that I cannot disagree with the size and color of your text. I was a fool. Forgive me. :nonono:
Azzy 07-01-07, 07:47 PM	I find that I cannot disagree with the size and color of your text. I was a fool. Forgive me. :nonono: Fine, we'll let you off with a warning this time. ;)
nobodez 07-01-07, 08:29 PM	And here's what it would like at all 20 levels: http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/346/346262/folders/265727/2178033Wizard-EruditeComparison(small).jpg I stand by my previous assertion. Now, you're comparing apples to oranges. A closer comparison would be, for instance, the Spirit Shaman. But even then, those are pre-chosen, and the Erudite's are on the fly. The Spirit Shaman, for those not familiar with the Complete Divine class, uses a composite prepared/spontaneous casting system that is my favorite spell casting system outside of psionics and the warlock (in that order). Each day the spirit shaman retrieves a set number of spell each day from the Druid spell list. They then spontaneously cast from this list of retrieved spells much like a sorcerer does from their spells known, though metamagic spells are prepared in the retrieved spell of the adjusted level (an empowered flame strike takes up a 6th level retrieved spell, and unless you also retrieved a normal flame strike, you can only cast it using your 6th level or higher spells per day). So, these are unique spells per level. If you notice, it hit's a max of 3. Not 11, but 3. These aren't unique castings of each spell (like the above tables represent with the wizard and "erudite"), but instead are unique varieties of spells. Spirit Shaman Spells Retrieved Per Day (Unique Spells per level) Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st 3 1 - - - - - - - - 2nd 3 2 - - - - - - - - 3rd 3 2 1 - - - - - - - 4th 3 3 1 - - - - - - - 5th 3 3 1 1 - - - - - - 6th 3 3 2 1 - - - - - - 7th 3 3 2 1 1 - - - - - 8th 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - - 9th 3 3 3 2 1 1 - - - - 10th 3 3 3 2 2 1 - - - - 11th 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 - - - 12th 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 - - - 13th 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 - - 14th 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 - - 15th 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 - 16th 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 - 17th 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 1 18th 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 19th 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 20th 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 2
Jimmeh42 07-01-07, 08:45 PM	i dont know if this will change any opinions of those strange people who think that the RAW is RAI on this matter but an Erudite is going to be HARD pressed to use all 99 'unique' powers in one day... there is no way, without items to get enough power points to use 11 powers of every level in one day... 11 level 9 powers =187pp 11 level 8 powers =165pp 11 level 7 powers =143pp oh look we are out of power points and havnt even started augmenting...and thats only 3 levels... and as for thinking that is restricting your versatility on a level by level basis, the idea is sound, but there is no way it would be setup like this, its totaly unbalenced...
Azzy 07-01-07, 09:46 PM	Now, you're comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps, and as such, your argument does a better job in proving my initial point (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12924248&postcount=23). :D i dont know if this will change any opinions of those strange people who think that the RAW is RAI on this matter So far, I think that there's only one person (Andramadus) who thinks that the RAW should be followed in this instance instead of being jettisoned into the Sun and replaced by something that doesn't make CoDzilla swoon with lust. :) and as for thinking that is restricting your versatility on a level by level basis, the idea is sound, but there is no way it would be setup like this, its totally unbalanced... So, in today's Psionic Community Meeting, shall we vote to replace the following sentence from the erudite's Unique Powers per Day entry: Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." With this: Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." I vote for the change.
QuarianRex 07-02-07, 01:10 AM	Seconded.
kyeudo 07-02-07, 01:13 AM	Azzy gets my vote for president.
Nite_shade 07-02-07, 01:13 AM	I concur.
AntiDjinn 07-02-07, 02:54 AM	There are many other questions regarding the erudite and its mechanics that yet to receive an official answer. Erudite in metaconcert: 1) If an erudite conducts a metaconcert is his unique powers per day restriction enforced or not? If he has already used all his unique powers per day, then having access to the combined power repertoire of the group does him little good (though he still may use the power point pool). Are the powers he manifests as the conductor counted against his UPD? What if he manifests a power that he doesn't actually know, is it still locked as a UPD? Or are the powers considered to be manifest by this ill-defined "entity" (what is its manifester level, before adding any mods from the other participants?) instead of the erudite and so do not count? 2) If an erudite participates does he bring his headful of powers to the mix (a potentially unlimited number of powers) even if he has locked most of them off by using his UPD max? If an erudite has 3 UPD and has already manifest 3 different powers, can he make all the rest of his powers known available to the metaconcert even though they are no longer available to himself? If he is also conducting doesn't that mean all the powers he has locked out become available to himself and so the UPD limit is being ignored? Or is the UPD enforced if the erudite is the conductor, but irrelevant is he is participating and just making all his powers known available to the group? Erudite of two minds: 1) Erudite manifests Schism, what happens to UPD? The second mind his 6 ML lower, but UPD is based on erudite level not ML. Do powers used by the secondary mind count against the UPD for the primary? Or does the secondary mind (treated like a separate character) get its own allotment of UPD? Before you answer, see part 2. 2) Erudite is hit with Personality Parasite, do both minds work off the same UPD? Personality Parasite is like a hostile version of Schism except the second mind is not reduced in ML. It is limited in that it can only manifest powers of a level up to 3 less than your maximum, but it can fully augment those powers up to your ML and can generate powers with the same overall DC you can. So do the powers manifest by this secondary mind count against the erudites UPD as though he manifest them? If so, then this power particularly hoses the erudite. Not only does he have a psychotic personality attempting to kill him with his own powers and power points, but each power it uses locks off one of his UPD choices even if he happens to survive. Then again, this rarely-used power is pretty much a hoser when it happens; you have one, maybe two rounds to dispel the damned thing or you should be dead if the DM is playing it as written. Ideally, the same answer should apply to both Schism and Personality Parasite. Aside: you can also turn this question on the Astral Construct Nerf. Is the schismed mind treated as a second autonomous character for purposes of manifesting its own astral construct or not? If a personality parasite mind manifests astral construct, does it cause an astral construct previously shaped by the character to dissipate? Practiced erudite: It boosts your manifester level, but UPD is not based off ML. If I am interpreting it correctly, an erudite 1/fighter 4 has an ML of 5 (can spend up to 5 points on a single manifestation) but may still only use 1 unique power per day. His actually erudite level is 1, his UPD is then read off the class chart at level 1.
Shadrin 07-02-07, 03:10 AM	11 of each level would be very overpowered. Compare to the Psion... At level 20, a Psion knows 36 powers total, while an Erudite can learn theoretically infinite powers, the 11 unique powers per day is supposed to be the balancing factor when compared to the Psion, he can know more powers, but he is limited in how many he can use in one day. If you use RAW though, then he is 'limited' to a total of 99 powers, which isn't much of a limit at all. So he would be able to know infinite powers, and use all of them in one day, while a Psion could only know 36. Overpowered, no?
Jimmeh42 07-02-07, 03:37 AM	antidjinn my personal rulings, based of very little in game dming practice would be... metaconcert 1)as the conductor he has the choice to use his own repertoire, or the rest of the group, manifesting a power he himself had, would count for UPD, one he does not have, would not count 2)each power used from the Erudite's repertoire would use one of his UPD, so he would bring his head full of options into the concert, but would only be able bring a handful out of it (its a tough restriction in some ways, but the only way to avoid 2 Erudite's running around in concert avoiding the UPD restriction) 2 minds question 1) i would make the schismed mind count as one character for the purposes of UPD simply because 1/day ability's would count the same way. 2) i would actually rule the other way about this situation, i can justify it in a roleplaying sense if you like but it just seems unfair to the Erudite compared to anybody else, although if it counts as being able to user up your 1/day ability's i guess you could rule the other way, this one i guess would be all about the mood of the situation it came up in, if it came up in a game i was running, as for an official ruling lets just say I'm glad i don't have to make such choices anyway thats my :twocents:
Syrkres 07-02-07, 09:58 AM	Playing an Erudite in my current Campaign, I have to agree with the current vote and approve with Azzy.
Azzy 07-04-07, 01:21 AM	Azzy gets my vote for president. I'll hold you to it in 2012. ;) Azzy for president!!! (Now I need to start making banners.)
Rhonin the Big 07-04-07, 01:34 AM	Does the number of unique powers listed give the that many times a day, making it so a 20th level erudite can use his powers eleven times then looses the ability to use his powers? or Does he get eleven powers to use that day as many times as he wants? Do the powers need to be pre selected, or can he decide as he goes? For the love of Zuoken, just play a psion! The erudite as written in complete psionics was so badly written they could've wrote the class entry in Svantonese and it would've been more playable than it is now!
Andramadus 07-04-07, 07:39 AM	For the love of Zuoken, just play a psion! The erudite as written in complete psionics was so badly written they could've wrote the class entry in Svantonese and it would've been more playable than it is now! Gotta get those wiz spells, can't help myself... Invisibility, monster summning, fly, whirling blade. All very enticeing!
Rhonin the Big 07-04-07, 11:57 AM	Gotta get those wiz spells, can't help myself... Invisibility, monster summning, fly, whirling blade. All very enticeing! Then why not just play a wizard? Why bother with non-sensical, non-english game mechanics?
Enchanter_Tom 07-04-07, 08:39 PM	Fact: The erudite is a great class. Fact: The erudite has a slight misprint that, when taken strictly RAW, makes it grossly overpowered. Myth: The erudite is a bad class. Myth: The erudite is overpowered.
kyeudo 07-04-07, 08:51 PM	Then why not just play a wizard? Why bother with non-sensical, non-english game mechanics? I think he wants both powers and spells. Erudite is the only class that gets both without prestige classing.
Rhonin the Big 07-05-07, 12:11 AM	Since nobody realizes what makes the Erudite so unplayable I will outline it for you. Note: This is from the perspective of a player who has never heard of the Erudite outside of complete psionics so certain common-sense interpretations are not very common. GBI #1: What in the nine hells is a unique power? I read that paragraph up and down and I cannot figure out how Unique Powers are supposed to work. When in d&d has any class ability called Unique X? Are "unique" powers your daily limit on what you can manifest, or are they your daily limit on how many times you can access your repertoire of powers? Assuming you know the answer to how unique powers work we have another limitation. GBI #2: How many of these so-called unique powers do you have per day? Limited by the table, or limited by the table of each level? And what is meant by "level" in this context? Power level, class level, effective character level, level of the dungeon you're on? One more problem caused by WoTC forgetting to look up "level" in the thesaurus! Assuming you figure out how this class does its job we have more problems. GBI #3: The way the erudite learns powers through stones is badly designed. No class should have a resource cost based on class level, all that does is encourage the leaving of the base class as soon as possible. In addition, the erudite has that ridiculous multiclass restriction; any class that limits your capability to aquire new abilities throughout your entire career when you multiclass is a bad game design. And finally, how come I can learn 48 different total discipline powers but I can't learn Psychic Warrior or Mantle powers? GBI #4: The erudite must make mental contact with a psionic creature for 1 fullround to learn discipline-specific powers, how is "mental contact" defined? Being affected by one of his powers? Eating his brain? Conversation? Sexual intercourse? Since its only 1 round required I could possibly, with the right psicraft checks, manifest an unlimited amount of powers thus bypassing the unique powers restriction. Wizards dont even have that much access and they can cast anything. GBI $5: The new Mind's Eye expanded classes lets erudites manifest wizard/sorcer spells. We already knew Gate was broken, but Gate in any armor without any components in addition to 9th level manifesting is even nastier; its like a psionic archivist. Like I said, if it were written in Svantonese it would be more playable. All I see is a class so full of typos and errors in place of where helpful information could be that it's difficult, if not impossible, to play without accurate clarification of the author's original intent.
CrimsonDeath 07-05-07, 01:31 AM	GBI #4: The erudite must make mental contact with a psionic creature for 1 fullround to learn discipline-specific powers, how is "mental contact" defined? Being affected by one of his powers? Eating his brain? Conversation? Sexual intercourse? Since its only 1 round required I could possibly, with the right psicraft checks, manifest an unlimited amount of powers thus bypassing the unique powers restriction. Wizards dont even have that much access and they can cast anything. This is actually outlined in Expanded Psionics Handbook, under "manifesting a power from another's powers known", which I believe the Erudite class references in the section you're discussing.
ChordNohVarr 07-05-07, 11:00 AM	As written, The Erudite has NO limits on how many powers he knows. But he can only pick 11 (at L20) of his known powers to use each day. He can pick ANY 11 powers, and can use them until he runs out of PP. This is not broken as he he can't switch out his powers (until he hits epic levels) before he rests and meditates. Yes this means he can just use 9th level powers all day at 20th level--until he runs out of PP after spending 20-30 PP per power each use. So, the balance is that he has to plan what powers to use each day, and if he's caught by surprise...oops. What makes the Erudite different is his versatility---he can potentially learn any psionic power regardless of class as long as he is of sufficient level. Add the feat Convert Spell to Power and he gets Arcane spells to access as well, with some limitations there also. The Erudite is very playable and versatile and unlike some of WoTC creations, a separate but equal core class unlike the Psion. This guy is to the Psion what the Sorcerer is to the Wizard in many ways. OK that's my opinion:monk:
ChordNohVarr 07-05-07, 11:05 AM	Forgot to say ---the reason I came here was to see if anyone has had any ideas regarding the feat Convert Spell to Power?:thinks: BTW, I meant to say "any Psion or Wilder Power" earlier.