Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TazendrasGhost 03-13-08, 09:38 AM	I'm about to start a new game and I've decided to try something a bit different. I have always loved the concept of the Erudite class, but it seems like it would be pretty rough at low levels with the limited number of unique powers/day. This new game will start at 15th level, making Erudite look a bit more attractive to me. I was talking with the DM last night about the game, and he suggested I try the PsiCrystal Imprinter class from Untapped Potential with an Erudite. The combination looks pretty nice, Erudite gives me a great number of Powers known, and the ability to store powers in my Psicrystal goes along way to counter the Erudite's weaknesses, so I think I'll go for it. Has anyone tried that class combo? How has it worked out for you? I've decided to make this guy a crafting specialist and give him a few more item creation feats than just the ones that are prereqs for the prestige class. I'm either going to take Craft Dorje or Craft Psicrown, I haven't decided which yet. Psicrowns are awfully damned expensive to make, but they use my Manifester Level, which is very nice. On the other hand, the Master Dorje feat makes Dorjes attractive. A Dorje of Vigor is dirt cheap to make, and give me 25 HPs/charge with the free augmentation. If I keep my Dorjes to low level powers that don't need a high manifester level or ones that augment extremely well, I can probably do pretty well. It seems like Psicrowns are most cost effective for powers that need a high ML, but don't need much augmenting, while Dorjes would be more cost effectve for lower level powers that work well when augmented. Any recommendations from the group on which craft feat is more effective? Finally, I'm thinking about the Spell to Power alternate Class Feature. Its damn attractive, but I think I'd feel dirty if I took it. :) I'll be playing with people that are much better at optimizing their characters than my normal group, nothing too cheesy, just your basic strong characters. Will an Erudite 6/Psicrystal Imprinter 9 be able to keep up without using that option? The other characters are a Human Cleric/Crusader/RKV, a Human Swift Hunter Archer, a Star Elf Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage, a Human Factotum skill monkey type, and a Shifter Totemist/Warshaper/Lion Totem Barbarian.
hogarth 03-13-08, 09:54 AM	I had a very similar idea recently, although I ended up making a psionic artificer instead. My plan was to use the Erudite class with the Pattern Master prestige class (from Hyperconscious). The Pattern Master's best ability is the ability to make permanent (i.e. usable 1/day) psionic tattoos of powers up to 5th level -- for the same cost as a regular psionic tattoo. And you can apply Extend Power to them for free if you want! I think most parties would appreciate permanent tattoos of Extended Schism, Metamorphosis, Expansion, Touchsight, Power Resistance, etc. available in the 2,000-4,000 gp price range. I haven't looked at the Imprinter class, though, so I can't comment on it.
Broken_Ability 03-13-08, 10:31 AM	I would recommend looking at the Soul Crystal power from Magic of Incarnum instead, since it can accomplish most things those classes can do without any monetary expenditure.
TazendrasGhost 03-13-08, 11:12 AM	Broken_Ability: Thanks for pointing that out. I looked at the power, and its pretty cool. It could be a very effective tool use at the end of a day. As long as I have one unique power slot left at the end of the day and enough power points, I can manifest the power, dump a power into it, and it has a long enough duration that I could use it the next morning. I like it! To use it the same day that you manifest it though is pretty rough. I spend 13 PPs, and now I can dump a single power in, along with PPs to power it. For it to allow me to manifest more unique powers/day I'd have to manifest that power at least twice, and dump different powers into each crystal. So I'd be spending 26 PPs to allow me to manifest one more unique power power/day. Pretty tough. I think I'll take that power for the ability to carry PPs over to the next day, but I'll still take the Prestige Class so I can get more unique powers per day, every day. Hogarth: Thanks, but I don't have access to that. The DM has Untapped Potential, but neither of us have Hyperconcious.
Lycanthromancer 03-13-08, 12:41 PM	I have just one word for those who use soul crystal. Quintessence.
TazendrasGhost 03-13-08, 12:54 PM	I have just one word for those who use soul crystal. Quintessence. Ooh, that is a nice idea. Another power I have to get. One thing that's not mentioned in the Quintessence Power description is how much the stuff weighs. 1 pound within 5' of me will be a pain, but there is no mention of how much volume it takes to get 1 pound of the stuff.
Lycanthromancer 03-13-08, 01:16 PM	It's an ounce per manifestation.
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-08, 01:23 PM	The psicrystal imprinter was designed with the erudite in mind. When the four authors of DSP started up a psi-happy Eberron game, Bacris started as an erudite going for psicrystal imprinter. (He left the game for timing reasons before he could reach that level.) The class basically turns the erudite into more of a wizard than he already is. It can be somewhat costly, but there are ways of reducing that cost, notably in Eberron (the [Adjective] Artificer feats). Soul Crystal was considered in balancing it -- the idea is that Soul Crystal does this, but at a higher PP cost for a shorter duration (barring Quintessence, which has its own problems), while the psicrystal imprinter is playable from lower levels. (Remember: "suck now rule later" is not good class design philosophy.) In the end, I decided that Soul Crystal is an impossibly good power in its own right, so when I did the final editing pass over that class, I made sure that the imprinter would work fine without it, and wouldn't be broken with it. I *hope* it turned out all right. (I would rate the imprinter as perhaps one of the strongest PrCs in that book in its own right. The Enlightened PrCs are up there too, but come with somewhat restrictive RP oaths.) As for the quintessence stunt, to avoid having lots of it together, use extradimensional storage spaces, like a Belt of Many Pockets. Each pocket is a separate extradimensional space, so even if you have fifty pounds of the stuff scattered between the pockets (just guessing; AFB and can't reference the belt's true capacity), so long as no pocket has a pound of it, you're fine. Mind you, in this case, you're walking around with a belt that basically says "screw you!" to both space *and* time, so there may be some unpredictable elements to it, notably as other extradimensional spaces are involved.
TazendrasGhost 03-13-08, 02:25 PM	Cool, nice to talk with one of the authors of the class about it. The class looks quite playable, and I think the level loss is justified for the extra class abilities. It fills in the major weakness of the Erudite and grants some interesting other abilities. Since you helped write the class, maybe you could help me out with a question I have about the Psicrystal Resonance ability. Does it make manifesting a power a full round action, or does it add an extra full round to the manifesting time? I considered taking one of the Artisan Feats to help keep the XP and GP costs down for crafting, but I'm running short of feats already. The DM strongly suggested I take the item familiar feat to offset the XP loss from learning extra powers and crafting. I find that feat a bit cheesy, but it would keep me at the same level at the rest of the group, and it does fit the concept of someone who crafts a LOT. If I go that route I'll probably ask the DM if I can make my Psicrystal the Item Familiar. Any tips from anyone on whether Dorjes vs. Psicrowns are more cost effective? I've never used a Psicrown before.
hogarth 03-13-08, 02:47 PM	Any tips from anyone on whether Dorjes vs. Psicrowns are more cost effective? I've never used a Psicrown before. The big advantages of a psicrown are: You use your own Int score to determine DCs. You can craft them at a low ML (to keep the price low) and use your own manifester level for augmenting powers; dorjes of augmented powers are quite expensive (since every +2 pp augmentation bumps the effective power level up by 1). If your DM allows you to (a) put whatever powers you want [within reason] into a psicrown instead of limiting you to the list of psicrowns in the XPH/CPsi/other books, and (b) use a "Periapt of Intellect +6" instead of a "Headband of Intellect +6" [since psicrowns use up your head slot], then I'd say psicrowns have the big advantage. I do like Dorje Mastery, but it's only a big advantage with low-level dorjes since high-level dorjes are so expensive. EDIT: Note that the psicrowns listed in the XPH have weird, non-Euclidean pricing, though. For example, the ML 9 Dominator psicrown costs 20,250 gp even though a ML 7 dorje of Psionic Dominate would cost 27,000 gp. I suggest you ask your DM how he's going to price psicrowns before making your choice.
Bacris 03-13-08, 05:27 PM	Since you helped write the class, maybe you could help me out with a question I have about the Psicrystal Resonance ability. Does it make manifesting a power a full round action, or does it add an extra full round to the manifesting time? It adds a full-round action on. So, if your power was normally a standard action, it's now a full-round action AND a standard action.
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-08, 05:59 PM	Cool, nice to talk with one of the authors of the class about it. Bacris actually wrote virtually all of it. The only thing I wrote was a new 10th level ability and tweaked the balance a bit (you can see the original here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-552260.html)). Since you helped write the class, maybe you could help me out with a question I have about the Psicrystal Resonance ability. Does it make manifesting a power a full round action, or does it add an extra full round to the manifesting time? As Bacris said, it adds on. There are a few powers, most notably Astral Construct, that take a full-round action or longer to manifest normally, and there should be a drawback to using Resonance on them. Psionics doesn't do "something for nothing". I considered taking one of the Artisan Feats to help keep the XP and GP costs down for crafting, but I'm running short of feats already. The DM strongly suggested I take the item familiar feat to offset the XP loss from learning extra powers and crafting. I find that feat a bit cheesy, but it would keep me at the same level at the rest of the group, and it does fit the concept of someone who crafts a LOT. If I go that route I'll probably ask the DM if I can make my Psicrystal the Item Familiar. There's no need to use Item Familiar. Just use the One Level Gravy Train. There's a lot of math needed to prove this (although it's simple math)... but the general idea is, if you stay one level behind your teammates, you gain more XP than they do. This is designed to level you up faster to catch up with them in a level or two -- but instead, what you do as a crafter is take only the same number of XP your teammates take. The leftover bonus XP is earmarked for item creation. (Example: if they all get 1000 and you get 1300, you set 300 aside for item crafting.) The net result is you end up advancing at more or less the same rate as your team, with no serious XP cost, in exchange for basically doubling your party's gear value (as you pay half price when building something instead of buying it). You remain a level behind the party, but after you pick up enough basic manifesting to continue to support them, you won't really notice too much of a difference (similar to losing an ML when you pick up a PrC).
CrimsonDeath 03-13-08, 07:58 PM	It's an ounce per manifestation. Dry ounce or fluid ounce? (If the former, we don't know its volume. If the latter, we don't know its weight.)
Tempest Stormwind 03-13-08, 08:52 PM	Likely fluid ounce, given how we know we have enough to cover a key, a ring, a seal, or an insignia. I'm fine with it being weightless but with a definite volume.
Lycanthromancer 03-13-08, 08:56 PM	Because then you'll never have to deal with a pound of quintessence or more, right, Tempest?
CrimsonDeath 03-13-08, 08:59 PM	Dry ounce or fluid ounce? (If the former, we don't know its volume. If the latter, we don't know its weight.) Correction: We know its volume either way, because one manifestation produces a one-inch-diameter "dollop". (If it's successfully removed, it's described as collapsing into a one-inch-diameter "bead", so the "dollop" is likely spherical before it's spread.) Likely fluid ounce, given how we know we have enough to cover a key, a ring, a seal, or an insignia. I'm fine with it being weightless but with a definite volume. The main problem there is that if it's weightless, you can never accumulate a pound of it (something that's apparently possible, since the power description explains when such a quantity is accumulated).
Tempest Stormwind 03-14-08, 01:00 AM	The main problem there is that if it's weightless, you can never accumulate a pound of it (something that's apparently possible, since the power description explains when such a quantity is accumulated). Correct, I don't know what came over me. (Apart from a hatred of the terrible Imperial system -- learn to use a real measurement system, you backwater yokels! Spend time learning how the physical world works instead of memorizing ten billion different conversion factors!) One-inch-diameter weighing one dry ounce seems to be the clearest interpretation. I guess that means time's rather more massive than we thought it was.
CrimsonDeath 03-14-08, 04:24 AM	(Apart from a hatred of the terrible Imperial system -- learn to use a real measurement system, you backwater yokels! Spend time learning how the physical world works instead of memorizing ten billion different conversion factors!) The metric system is just as arbitrary as the Imperial system. I will admit that having powers of ten for conversion factors is convenient when using a base ten numerical system, though.
TazendrasGhost 03-14-08, 08:33 AM	As Bacris said, it adds on. There are a few powers, most notably Astral Construct, that take a full-round action or longer to manifest normally, and there should be a drawback to using Resonance on them. Psionics doesn't do "something for nothing". Seems reasonable. Free augments for all of my out of combat manifesting using my unique powers is quite nice. I am going to be feat starved, so getting some augments for free is valuable. There's no need to use Item Familiar. Just use the One Level Gravy Train. There's a lot of math needed to prove this (although it's simple math)... but the general idea is, if you stay one level behind your teammates, you gain more XP than they do. This is designed to level you up faster to catch up with them in a level or two -- but instead, what you do as a crafter is take only the same number of XP your teammates take. The leftover bonus XP is earmarked for item creation. (Example: if they all get 1000 and you get 1300, you set 300 aside for item crafting.) The net result is you end up advancing at more or less the same rate as your team, with no serious XP cost, in exchange for basically doubling your party's gear value (as you pay half price when building something instead of buying it). You remain a level behind the party, but after you pick up enough basic manifesting to continue to support them, you won't really notice too much of a difference (similar to losing an ML when you pick up a PrC). That works as long as the DM gives out more XP to characters who are at a lower level. I've played with DMs who give out a flat rate of XP to all the characters for an encounter regardless of level. Its still not bad, the extra items I can get for the XP gives me a pretty nice boost. I think I'll try it without item familiar, and without the Spell to Power cheese, see how it goes. I'm looking forward to trying the character out.
The_Mess 03-14-08, 01:54 PM	The metric system is just as arbitrary as the Imperial system. I will admit that having powers of ten for conversion factors is convenient when using a base ten numerical system, though. It's more than that. Yes, the base units of measurements are arbitrary, but the system itself just makes more sense. I dare you to convert "5 gallons" into "cubic inches" without referring to a conversion table. The Imperial system has arbitrary units of measure for EVERY independent measurement you could make, frequently several different units. The metric system has far fewer arbitrary units. There is no independent unit of volume, they just use cubic length and vary the prefix as needed (cubic centimeters, cubic milimeters, etc.). Even where practicality has demanded an "arbitrary" unit (such as the Newton for force), it is still an easy convert, in terms of 1 quantity of base units (kg m/s*s), which means as long as you understand the concept, conversion is painfully easy. Furthermore, the fact that the system was designed rather than evolved means there are fewer abject stupidities (there are nine different imperial meanings for "ounce").
Tempest Stormwind 03-14-08, 03:12 PM	It's more than that. Yes, the base units of measurements are arbitrary, but the system itself just makes more sense. I dare you to convert "5 gallons" into "cubic inches" without referring to a conversion table. The Imperial system has arbitrary units of measure for EVERY independent measurement you could make, frequently several different units. The metric system has far fewer arbitrary units. There is no independent unit of volume, they just use cubic length and vary the prefix as needed (cubic centimeters, cubic milimeters, etc.). Even where practicality has demanded an "arbitrary" unit (such as the Newton for force), it is still an easy convert, in terms of 1 quantity of base units (kg m/s*s), which means as long as you understand the concept, conversion is painfully easy. Furthermore, the fact that the system was designed rather than evolved means there are fewer abject stupidities (there are nine different imperial meanings for "ounce"). While I agree, there *is* a specific unit of volume in SI -- the litre. It's defined as 1000 cubic centimeters: the name "litre" is just convenient shorthand, much like your example of the Newton. (To our American friends, this is a bit over a quart. This is also part of the reason why border towns so often make the joke that gas is cheap in Canada -- it's priced by the litre, not the gallon.) I don't think this would classify it as "independent", but it's worth noting. Interesting tidbit: SI doesn't consider force (weight) to be more fundamental than mass. Imperial does -- the Imperial unit of mass, the slug, is defined in terms of weight in pounds. The problem is, an object's weight varies with gravity. This means that before the system was adjusted for this (and another meaning for the word "pound", the avoirdupois pound, was developed), an object's *mass* was different on Earth and on the moon, in abject defiance of basic physical conservation principles. Topic shift in 3... 2... 1... TazendrasGhost, your DM should be giving you more XP if you're lower level. Reread the Rewards section of the DMG.
Lycanthromancer 03-14-08, 04:11 PM	His isn't the only one that does that. The DMs around here do it, too, and won't do it any other way (since it's more work).
CrimsonDeath 03-14-08, 05:04 PM	Even where practicality has demanded an "arbitrary" unit (such as the Newton for force), it is still an easy convert, in terms of 1 quantity of base units (kg m/s*s), which means as long as you understand the concept, conversion is painfully easy. That's not at all what I meant by "arbitrary". What I mean is that there was no specific reason to choose the values they did for the second, meter, gram, and Kelvin. The second is just the same second we've always been using, with is 1/86,400 of a day. (It's also defined in terms of some sort of quantum vibration of Cesium, but the number chosen for that definition has it coming out equal to the first one...) The meter is 1/40,000 of the Earth's polar circumference, but there's no reason to have used 1/40,000 instead of 1/20,000 or 1/10,000, and the only reason the polar circumference was used instead of the equatorial circumference is because 1/40,000 of it is the distance from the equator to one pole (and the only reason we chose Earth is because we're right here and it isn't going anywhere or changing its circumference any time soon). (It's also defined as the distance light travels in a particular fraction of a second, but that particular fraction was chosen to set it equal to the first one...) The gram is the mass of one cubic centimeter of pure water, originally at its melting point but currently at 4 degrees Centigrade (its minimum volume). There's no specific reason to have chosen water, a cubic centimeter, or either temperature. Finally, the Kelvin is (pretty close to) 1/100 the difference between the freezing point and melting point of water (with the differences resulting from the official definition having been set prior to improvements in measurement techniques)-- once again, no reason to have chosen any of that. Kelvin is an improvement over Celsius in that 0K is absolute zero, currently thought to be the lowest possible temperature, so that zero Kelvin really is zero temperature; 0 degrees Celsius was set at the freezing point of water (or close to it, as described earlier), which was convenient for the size of the degree (at the time) but necessitates the use of negative temperature for a wide variety of situations. Another reason that Kelvin is preferable to Celsius is that Celsius is measured in degrees, the name for a commonly used unit of measuring angles and arcs, while the Kelvin scale is measured in Kelvins, a uniquely named unit. The Newton, on the other hand, is (as you've noted) one kilogram-meter per second per second, which is entirely in terms of established units and therefore no more arbitrary than the units it's based on. (To our American friends, this is a bit over a quart. This is also part of the reason why border towns so often make the joke that gas is cheap in Canada -- it's priced by the litre, not the gallon.) We know how much is in a liter. We buy our soft drinks by the liter (except for single-serving ones, which are measured by the fluid ounce).
The_Mess 03-14-08, 09:32 PM	The Newton, on the other hand, is (as you've noted) one kilogram-meter per second per second, which is entirely in terms of established units and therefore no more arbitrary than the units it's based on. Quite a bit less, actually. EVERY unit in the Imperial system is not only arbitrary, it's independently arbitrary with no connection to any other unit and no way to remember what it is without memorizing conversion tables. The metric system has a few base arbitrary units (any measuring system will, unless you want to base one on quantum physics constants) and the rest are derived, which is just much more sensible. And I can't believe I forgot about the liter. I hang my head in shame.