Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aotrscommander 04-19-07, 01:46 PM	As part of my general revision of the magic system for my new campaign world, I have been attempting to eliminate memorisign spells and having a more fluid Mana Point system (not, I must hasten to add, like UA's Spell Points). Anyway, the current outstanding issue is of preventing certain divine classes who shall remain nameless access to every spell on their class list continuously. My initial idea was to have a list of spells you readied (not unlike maneouvers, but not very much like them, either); this has proven to be somewhat cumersome, however, in the initial playtest. What, you may ask, does any of this have to do with the psionics board? Well, as a possible alturnative, I am looking at the Erudite's manifesting method of using unique spells. But, I have not yet used an Erudite (and am not likely to in the immediate future accept as an nPC), so, folks of the psionic boards, I ask you what your experiences are with them. How does the Erudite measure up as a class power- and flexibility- wise? Does it really have enough unique powers to work well (that was my initial concern when looking at the class) as a primary caster? (And if you're feeling really brave, how do you think the mechanic would fit in with Clerics/Druids/Wizards given their number of spells? This, incidently, is pretty much a side question, since this is the psionics board after all!)
Bacris 04-19-07, 02:08 PM	Having played one a couple times, at low levels you have enough options to choose from initially, but once that choice is made, you're severely limited. However, it's a pretty solid class from my experience.
saidin0111 04-19-07, 04:35 PM	as one levels up, you should have plenty of options, as you should note, the description of unique powers per day says that it is unique powers per level per day, so you get that many unique powers of each level, not of all levels combined, by mid levels, it should be something of a non-issue
Knight0 04-19-07, 04:39 PM	those two words "per level" were very well hidden. That makes it very cool then, if not hard to track which levels you have left.
saidin0111 04-19-07, 04:44 PM	here's the sentence on p.153 of CPsi "Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." I'm figuring since that makes little sense to anyone without the book, it shouldn't pose a problem posting it.
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 05:06 PM	That is pretty evidently a copy/paste error from the Dragon erudite, which had a unique powers per day table equal to the wizard's spells per day table. As a result, it was crazy-broken. The CPsi erudite has more powers than a psion and can learn more without levelling up. He can also learn from multiple disciplines without a feat. To give him exponentially increasing powers per day which exceed the psions would obviously be overpowered. Besides, I believe Bruce posted a comment to that end on his website back a year ago or so... I'll see if I can dig it up.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-19-07, 05:09 PM	A guy I know played a dragon verion erudite, and he said the limit on unique powers per day really kicked him in the pants. I could imagine that it's a lot worse, now that the limit is stupid crazy low.
aotrscommander 04-19-07, 05:34 PM	I must admit, 36 unique powers per day at level 20 does seen a little nuts (to say nothing of the 99 saidin0111 is quoting); I'm inclined on the basis to believe Tempest that it's a typo, since when the heck would you ever manifest 99 different powers in one day! (Actually, it's impossible to manifest that many different powers, looking at it, since you'd be out of PP by the time you'd got through 9th and 8th powers!). 11 per day does seem a little low, though at top level. That is less than Warlock Invocations, for example (though granted, you get a larger potential repatoire to draw from.) Bacris, how often did you find you burnt out your unique spells to the point of it being a serious limitation? I'm guessing, since to my albeit limited experience, psions seems to lack the same amount of utility-type spells (there appears to be a higher proportion of the available power which seem to be self-buffs or offense) and have scalable powers than fold effects that require multiple spells in one, that this is less of an issue than it may first appear...? (Wow, that was a long sentence!) (So converted, to spells, then, the number would have to be a bit higher, I think (maybe level+1 ish), since there is a far greater number of available spells than powers (plus the bais of magic having a lot more utility spells of situational use). I want to get a balance where divine casters (+wizards!) don't loose any utility (or don't lose much, they can afford to loose some, hard bastards that they are!) but are still forced to make some decisions.)
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 06:01 PM	The trick to playing an effective erudite is to abuse the hell out of Imprint Stone. You have a pile of powers to use and the ability to learn a lot of those little-used utility powers -- why not make stones out of them and save your unique powers for when you really need a strong effect for the upcoming combat?
Bacris 04-19-07, 06:04 PM	Yup - my erudite was constantly creating power stones for use and tried to always keep at least one slot open for a unique power.
Nifft 04-19-07, 06:23 PM	Right, the Erudite is a born crafter. Imprint Stone and Craft Dorje should be your first priority -- Dorjes are cheaper per PP. Universal Items are your second priority, since you can get all relevant powers needed to create them, even the stupid unpopular ones that you won't be using day-to-day. Because you will have charged items, you should get schism as soon as possible -- Power Trigger is a mental action, after all, and your manifester level is ignored. :) Cheers, -- N
aotrscommander 04-19-07, 07:51 PM	Aha. That in itself suggests then that the Erudite is somewhat limited by the unique powers. In most of our campaigns, there is often little downtime anyway, so item crafting has never been seriously considered by any of the players. (Hell, it's taken like, since 3.0 was released for any of us to even consider spending our precious XP. The reaction to item crafting (and spells with an XP cost) was - and still often is - "Spend XP? What?! Are you mad?!") (Though the world I'm writing for will have item crafting in a much more important role, since the PCs won't be able to buy magic items!) So, I should definatly ramp up the number of unique spells, should I go with this. Kinda defeats the object of trying to divest wizards of their spellbooks to make them carry huge numbers of scrolls! (No, we don't use those much either. We tend to horde treaures and burn money on nondisposable items; usually striaght enhancements to weapons and armour. Yes, we're dumb like that. We favour direct damage spells/powers in general too, mostly. My favourite spell is Magic Missile, for cryin' out loud. Never had a wizard or sorcerer ever that didn't use it for most of his 1st level spells. Tempest would probably cry with frustration at our supernatural ineptitude if he sat in on one of our sessions1.) On the other hand, it still likely to be quicker than having a ready list of (10+Int mod+2x spellcaster class level) spells which was practically back to Vancian. Worse, actually, with bookeeping, at the lower levels! 1Though to be fair, we do have good tactics otherwise!
Zemyla 04-19-07, 08:16 PM	here's the sentence on p.153 of CPsi "Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level." I'm figuring since that makes little sense to anyone without the book, it shouldn't pose a problem posting it. An editing error? In CPsi? What kind of blasphemous nonsense are you spewing? CPsi was perfect, because it sprang forth full-grown from the holy Bruce's forehead!
baltasar_basilius 04-19-07, 09:21 PM	I haven't played this class yet or psionic artificer, but I see the general agreement is that Erudites are great for crafting unique powers that your average psion of the street wouldn't have access to. In your personal campaigns have these powers been more from other classes and mantles, or have you used it to get access to multiple disciplines? I ask this question because I'm questioning which would be better over the long-haul? I don't find TONS of psy-warrior powers that would be great for someone with a d4 HD and poor BAB. The difference I see is that the artificer can get access to discipline powers 2 levels before the average psion, and the erudite would get those 2 levels after your average psion. I guess it would all come down to how valuable crafting AND manifesting would be to you. and so yeah- thats my question to those who have played one or the other. Is the erudite's limited number of powers/day worth it compared to a psionic artificer?
InkBlot 04-20-07, 02:35 AM	An erudite can't learn psywar powers, and can't learn mantle powers. Erudites can only learn psion/wilder and discipline powers.
baltasar_basilius 04-20-07, 03:16 PM	An erudite can't learn psywar powers, and can't learn mantle powers. Erudites can only learn psion/wilder and discipline powers. My bad- I misunderstood what someone else said once and then skimmed over the CPsi section of it later that day.
aotrscommander 04-23-07, 10:44 AM	Last question then... What does an Erudite say when he's run out of unique spells per day, in character? "I can only cast six different spells today" doesn't really sound very convincing! I'm trying to come up with a good justification for the mechanics but I'm flat-out clueless. I mean I could gloss over the whole issue by stating that the rules are merely abstracting that the Erudite (etc) sat and mediated/remembered the right formulae/prayer etc at the start of the day for the powers he used, but I feel there could be a better flavouring to it! Thoughts?
Tempest Stormwind 04-23-07, 11:14 AM	"The mind is clear, like a blank slate, but it is also finite, bound somewhat by the constraints of my physical self. One could say that I could write anything on that slate, but the slate itself is only so large. Much like the poet or playwright, I have untold potential scripts waiting in my subconcious, just waiting for me to write them and tell their story to the world... but each time I tell a different tale, I use up just a touch more of that slate, using up just a bit more of the mind's flexibility convoluting my psyche to make that power manifest. There's only so far I can go before I just can't twist myself any further, when I run out of room on the slate, and am stuck telling the same tales again and again. At least, until sleep wipes the slate clean once again and the cycle begins anew." Adjust "power" to "spell" as normal, possibly having it write on the caster's soul instead of his mind (or hell, to further the flavor distinction between arcane, divine, and psionics, perhaps psi writes on the mind, divine on the soul, and arcane on the body, causing runes to appear on your arm with each new spell you cast as the magic pervades your system? Casting a spell could be as simple as reading pre-existing runes or evoking new ones to appear -- but if the sigils spread too close to your heart, you run risks to your health, so intrinsic safeguards inherent to the magic are ingrained in all wizards, preventing too many spells from taking root. With experience, you learn to shape clearer, smaller runes in the same area on your body, and with sleep they slowly fade away as your body heals itself...). There, you have your answer.
AntiDjinn 04-23-07, 12:50 PM	The erudite also wins as the character most likely to be invited to participate in a Metaconcert (assuming that he contributes all his powers known to the group, regardless of how many unique powers he has used) and least likely to be asked to conduct (assuming that being the conductor of a Metaconcert does not allow him to exceed his UP limit).
Nifft 04-23-07, 11:53 PM	The erudite also wins as the character most likely to be invited to participate in a Metaconcert Does it even need to be a metaconcert? Can't you manifest a power off someone else's known power list with nothing more than an overly friendly handshake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkn ownPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown)? Erudide: the best cohort for your Wilder. Cheers, -- N
Tempest Stormwind 04-23-07, 11:56 PM	Does it even need to be a metaconcert? Can't you manifest a power off someone else's known power list with nothing more than an overly friendly handshake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkn ownPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown)? Erudide: the best cohort for your Wilder. Cheers, -- N That assumes the power's on your class list, which isn't always the case for erudites. It almost always is the case for the wilder, though.
FeceMan 04-24-07, 12:10 AM	Allowing a level 20 erudite to manifest 11 unique powers per power level would be...unfortunate for any novice DM. "The mind is clear, like a blank slate, but it is also finite, bound somewhat by the constraints of my physical self. One could say that I could write anything on that slate, but the slate itself is only so large. Much like the poet or playwright, I have untold potential scripts waiting in my subconcious, just waiting for me to write them and tell their story to the world... but each time I tell a different tale, I use up just a touch more of that slate, using up just a bit more of the mind's flexibility convoluting my psyche to make that power manifest. There's only so far I can go before I just can't twist myself any further, when I run out of room on the slate, and am stuck telling the same tales again and again. At least, until sleep wipes the slate clean once again and the cycle begins anew." You just STFU with your awesome.
saidin0111 04-25-07, 03:16 AM	yes, I never thought about that adding up to 99 powers in a day, that is quite ridiculous, since a psion who doesn't have the restriction, can not learn 99 powers, at least not before they near godhood besides being 11 total per day, the only other option I can think of is maybe 11 using 1-2 pp, 11 using 3-4 pp, 11 using 5-6 pp, 11 using 7-8 pp, 11 using 9-10 pp, 11 using 11-12 pp, 11 using 13-14 pp, 11 using 15-16 pp, and 11 using 17+ pp, still kinda ridiculous, but it's a thought, still doesn't look reasonable though better yet, what if each time you gained access to a new level of powers, that level of powers started with the level one limit and had to advance up the chart until being set in stone when the erudite hit level 20 this would give a level 20 erudite 11 1st level powers, 10 2nd level powers, 9 3rd level powers, 8 4th level powers, 7 5th level powers, 6 6th level powers, 5 7th level powers, 4 8th level powers, and 3 9th level powers that doesn't seem nearly as ridiculous as the 11 per level that's in the book, but not as insanely restrictive as the 11 per day that seems to be the only other option
Bacris 04-25-07, 07:55 AM	11 per day is really not as restrictive as it sounds. My standard psion often used less than that on a daily basis, and used power stones, dorjes, or other items. This helped him preserve his power points for when they were really needed. It's quite restrictive at low levels, but with the augmentation / flexibility inherent in many psion powers, and the very low cost of creating low-power level power stones, it's really not that bad. I'd recommend trying it before jumping to conclusions :)
CrimsonDeath 04-25-07, 03:51 PM	Look at it this way. A Wilder knows eleven powers period. The Erudite has the career flexibility of a Wizard, but he pays for it by restricting his daily flexibility to that of a Wilder.
saidin0111 04-25-07, 09:33 PM	ah, the one class that I've completely ignored happens to be the one that provides the proof of the balance, there you have it, 11 powers per day is definitely balanced then, I usually stray away from CHA based casters/manifesters due to their general lack of flexibility, and CHA is usually a dump stat if I'm not making a Cleric, Paladin, or Rogue, the only time I've looked into a Cha caster is when I planned out an Ultimate Magus, oh, and when I did a couple of warlocks, but I don't really count them with the other CHA casters