Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InkBlot 06-29-07, 12:09 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a WOOHOO! New Mind's Eye! Ectopic Ally is a bit weird, evidently an exception to the normal "psilike abilities are automatically augmented" rule, but it doesn't come right out and say that. Hidden Talent for Divine Mind's is a nice boost. Very cool that Mark kept it on theme. I'm not entirely sure if Ectopic Ally plus Hidden Talent is enough to save the Divine Mind. It should help, however. Stygian path is nice. Turn Undead was something the divine mind was screaming for from the start. Holy moly more lurk augments! Sweet! Hey look, Reach Attack! Oh... wait... ~(>_<)~ Erudite... oh my, that's a lot to read.
Ishindri 06-29-07, 12:12 AM	*edit* Never mind. I changed my mind, I think that the erudite options are just plain awesome. The sheer volume of spells available to spellcasters as opposed to manifesters makes the erudite's third option extraordinarily useful. Possibly somewhat overpowered, imagine all the stuff you could learn... healing spells... *drools* The fact that you treat them as discipline powers goes a way towards balancing that out, though.
Istarion 06-29-07, 12:23 AM	WOW, just can't say more. The 10th level ability for the ardent is just WOW. Sure, it applies only to one mantle, but the benefits are awesome. They let effective metamagic stacking and reduce the metapsi cost. wow. I really wish to see the Divine mind to work. really. A question on stygian path... activating it is what kind of action? The lurk specialization is nice, I will try it. But, does activating Psionic trapfinding require spending one augment? The erudite convert Spell to Power is nuts. Just nuts. Barring the Unique powers per day, it's like an archivist on roids. Mental Pinnacle as a Power, anybody??
Nite_shade 06-29-07, 01:04 AM	The Ardent's ability is absolutely incredible. Take the Energy domain and get cheaper metapsionics on all of your energy powers and you're arguably a better blaster than a Kineticist. Then finally, arriving at the Erudite. Holy. Crap. The first two variants are nice, but the third...why would any Erudite ever NOT take this? It's pure unadultered 100% greatness. I mean, I like Erudites, I play an Erudite but, after a first read - what makes this not ridiculously and blatantly broken? (All-in-all though, an incredible article from Mark.)
Second 06-29-07, 01:08 AM	Convert Spell to Power Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training. Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat. Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert a spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic). :OMG! Oh. Hell. Yes. Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou thankyou! My DM is going to hate me more than ever before. :D The other two Erudite alternate features we all saw coming from a mile away but color me surprised on that last one. As for the other classes, I'm glad to see a psionic trapfinding rogue that isn't a Psychic Rogue. I had to double check to make sure I actually read the Metafaculty Tag augment correctly. A 9th level discipline power as an augment? Wow. The Divine Mind choices were...interesting. I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole using telekinesis. I'm liking the Ardent even more now. That Dominant Ideal could turn the Ardent into quite the blaster. Fully augmented Burrowing Split Ray Empowered Energy Ray, anyone? [EDIT] Just realized. What sources does an Erudite use for learning spells? Scrolls, the head of a living spellcaster who knows the spell, a spellbook, etc?
runestar 06-29-07, 01:14 AM	It is a shame when the web enhancements provide material which is worth more than all the crap in CPsi put together...:( I just might pick up the book now to know more about said classes now...:P
Ishindri 06-29-07, 01:16 AM	[EDIT] Just realized. What sources does an Erudite use for learning spells? Scrolls, the head of a living spellcaster who knows the spell, a spellbook, etc? Presumably the same things he can use for learning powers: a scroll, maybe a spellbook, possibly a spellcaster.
Lokiyn 06-29-07, 01:17 AM	I have to preface this with the fact that i dislike the erudite, immesely (lot of reasons for it to go into now, lets just leave it as i dislike its conceptual basis) But that is an insane boost in power for an erudite. Just off the top of my head it looks like an erudite coudl scribe a true ressurection power that costs 19 power points to manifest (easy with overchannel) Or any other of the spells (like force cage) with the expensive material compoents as a balancing factor for a simple 2 pp increase, or (insert deity of choice) Binding, which normally has a 500gp+500gp per HD cost.
Antendren 06-29-07, 01:20 AM	As for the other classes, I'm glad to see a psionic trapfinding rogue that isn't a Psychic Rogue.Now I just need to find a way to get Search and Disable Device on the Lurk skill list. Just off the top of my head it looks like an erudite coudl scribe a true ressurection power that costs 19 power points to manifest (easy with overchannel)They can't learn 9th level spells. They can only learn discipline-only powers (and thus spells) of strictly lower level than the highest power they can manifest.
lucas_william 06-29-07, 01:20 AM	The Erudite's alternate class feature "Convert Spell to Power" is huge, maybe to huge. All I can say is WOW!!!
Second 06-29-07, 01:28 AM	Wow, you're right. Maybe it's the lack of sleep, but I was only thinking of arcane spells. Presumably they could learn any kind of spell, from anywhere. Add in the universal 2 pp cost of any expensive material component and I'm starting to think someone didn't think this all the way through. It probably needs to be narrowed down to arcane spells and a cost for expensive material components and foci in XP on a 1 to 5 ratio (1xp=5gp). I seriously don't see why an Erudite should be able to learn divine spells, similarly to why a wizard can't just learn any given divine spell without jumping through some hoops.
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 01:35 AM	The Spell Casting Erudite is probably close to going over the edge of being broken but also not all that different from playing the Mage/Psi combo. When we were working on this our intent was to create a variant erudite that fill the role of psion but also have the ability to pick up the utility of the mage for partys that don't have a mage. I could swear that there was some wording that noted we intended this for arcane spells so now I'm gonna have to check our playtest docs... Anyway, I would probably allow it in a psi only campaign or in a party with a mage I would monitor which spells the erudite has and adjust the encounters slightly as though a second mage were there etc... It was fun testing this.. --MJ
Lokiyn 06-29-07, 01:44 AM	I'm still going to giggle over a psionic Apocalypse from the sky for 19 pp (the artifact component was changed to a focus in the errata) There definitly needs to be some sort of limit for expensive material components (like Psionic Simulacrum, i make any monster i know of a reality)
Karkaras 06-29-07, 02:01 AM	June's Expanded Classes is here... For me, there are good gifts, so-so gifts and no-thank you gifts... Let's see... Ardent. Tribal Ardent: Excellent to choose the Natural World Mantle. Although losing Psicraft hurts, for a druid-like Ardent, having survival is cool. Dominant Ideal: It is a no-brain for me. Especially for mantles like Energy. Not-spending your psionic focus is always good. Elemental Mantles: I reeally prefer the good ol' Elements Mantle. Particularly because I can always choose the Energy Mantle too. Now... Substitute Powers gives us a little hint of how mantles are designed, and allows the possibility to customize a Mantle, at GM's discretion. As always, it is good to have the GM as a friend. Divine Mind. The level of faith of a divine mind is equal of that of a paladin!!! Not only that but it also depicts the divine minds as fundamentalists! I like that Ectopic Ally: An Astral Construct with a fixed set of abilities, but whose text can be read in two different ways: 1) it can be augmented BEYOND your manifester level. So at 9th level I can manifest a single 9th level astral construct (psi-like ability augmented per class levels + augmented with daily uses) :evillaugh: 2) it can be only be augmented with daily uses. Also, since the psi-like ability can be used once per day for every two level, does that meant that I can't use it at first level? Stygian path: It can be good if your charisma is low enough... I would say a +1 mod as a top. Hidden Talent: Hidden Errata... but with Wis instead of Cha! It was good, now it is better! Lurk :weep: I want my "Bonus Psionic Feats for Psionic Sneak Attack" Lurk!!! :weep: True Thief: We already have a Psychic Rogue... And why is Death Attack as a "thief augment"? The normal Lurk is the Assassin made a standard class, it should have such augment. Tracker: Psionic Ranger? I dont't know... :weep: And I want my "Bonus Psionic Feats for Psionic Sneak Attack" Lurk!!! :weep: Is there an Unearthed Arcana for Psionics in progress? Erudite: First of all: They still remember the Gem Dragons... Favored Discipline: I don't know, I can always learn new powers later but a bonus feat is prescious... Mantled Erudite: Now, this is something entirely different. To hell with the powers, I can always learn them later, but Some granted Powers are good... Convert spell to power: IT IS A GOOD GUIDE TO RESEARCH NEW POWERS FROM SPELLS... But manifesting spells both divine and arcana... is just wrong... Psionic Feats: Powergrace: The prerequisite is good. It is not "able to manifest 1st level powers". It is to have "a repertoire of powers". Two or more powers. The benefits are not so good from my point of view because it only affects powers and psi-like abilities. Psychic Sight: I would never spend my precious psionic focus like that.
calronmoonflower 06-29-07, 02:21 AM	Just off the top of my head it looks like an erudite coudl scribe a true ressurection power that costs 19 power points to manifest (easy with overchannel) Or any other of the spells (like force cage) with the expensive material compoents as a balancing factor for a simple 2 pp increase, or (insert deity of choice) Binding, which normally has a 500gp+500gp per HD cost. Power have Xp cost instead of material components. The gold piece cost to experience ratio is 5gp to 1xp. Even though the article didn't include this, house ruling it to work this way should help limit abuse.
Deekin 06-29-07, 02:37 AM	Erudite- 3 option - habitajeeta..... Any spell? CharOp Members, what can you do with this?
ssvegeta555 06-29-07, 02:39 AM	Wow! :eek: This is a good article. The Convert Spell to Power ability is very awesome. Even though it allows the Erudite to learn a huge amount of spells its balanced by the fact he has only a limited amount of powers he can manifest in one day. Although, learning any spell is a bit over the top. Restricting it to Arcane only would be a good limit. Anyways, awesome article. Well worth the wait! :cool:
RuinousCreation 06-29-07, 03:06 AM	I'm glad I'm not the only one who was like 'woah' on the spellcasting Erudites. What exactly are the consequences of treating them like a domain power? You can learn only up to one level than you can manafest? Is it really very easy for an Erudite to learn a new power? Just a psycraft (and in this case also a spellcraft) check? I guess I should check Erudite again. Still, despite probably being unfairly generous, it is fun to have an 'omnicaster,' assuming that they don't edit it to limit it to arcane.
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 03:14 AM	I'm on vacation and won't be in the office again till the 16th ... for now if you want to play the spell erudite limit it to arcane spells as that is what we had intended. I am going to see what happened to the wording from our original doc and get that added to the article. I think it got lost in some iteration. If you happen to play it with ANY spell please let me know that works out for ya. I also believe that we wanted the spells that were learned to occupy the space of a power so that you had a limit to how many spells and powers you could have as normal. Although the wording does seem vague doesn't it. I am sure we will get this all worked out shortly and won't panic too many DM's :) --MJ
Antendren 06-29-07, 03:18 AM	The any spell bit doesn't worry me nearly as much as the ability to ignore material components for 2 pp. Stoneskin, Forcecage?
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 03:24 AM	The any spell bit doesn't worry me nearly as much as the ability to ignore material components for 2 pp. Stoneskin, Forcecage?Well it was based on the spell point system in the Unearthed Arcana and I believe (although i dont have my book handy) that it is handled that way. Someone look it up and let me know if i'm wrong. --MJ
Suldarr'essalar 06-29-07, 03:30 AM	The ardent is awesome :) Too bad my character went into PrC's instead of taking levels in ardent. I really wished the Divine Mind would get full BAB, or something that would make him useful. Ectopic Ally? A psionic version of paladins mount. That doesn't have any psionic flavor. That's just freaking magic. Erudite with spells? WT..? What's that got to do (got to do, got to do...) with psionics?
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 03:35 AM	Just realized. What sources does an Erudite use for learning spells? Scrolls, the head of a living spellcaster who knows the spell, a spellbook, etc?I would say that any normal source of the spell, a scroll, another caster that knows it, basically anything your DM thinks is reasonable enough. --MJ
Tempest Stormwind 06-29-07, 03:55 AM	Well it was based on the spell point system in the Unearthed Arcana and I believe (although i dont have my book handy) that it is handled that way. Someone look it up and let me know if i'm wrong. --MJ This is actually pretty much verbatim from the Spell Point section in Unearthed Arcana. Which is a shame, since that system is patently broken. Observe. That system attempts to balance the freedom of spell points with the power of freescaling spells by keeping damage spells from going beyond the minimum caster level. Fine, so my blasty mage has to pay through the nose. At level 20, he'd have to throw 20 power points to deliver a typical Delayed Blast Fireball. HOWEVER... at level 20, I could pay just 17 power points to get a full-strength Shapechange, or Gate, or Mordenkainen's Disjunction. I could pay a mere 7 power points and get a full-strength, CL 20 Polymorph or Phantasmal Killer. I could pay 15 power points and get a Maze or 13 and get a Polymorph Any Object. All of these would function at CL 20. Binary effects -- and there are MANY in magic -- are patently broken if they continue to function under spell points (since you can literally spam spells at full strength for cheaper than max costs). And, incidentally, they are the one thing that the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana does not change. People to this day are complaining about psionics because they tried Spell Points. They speak of throwing around something like 20 Mordenkainen's Disjunctions per day, which this erudite could now do. The difference between spells and psionics at this stage is that psionic powers scale by power points, not by level, EVEN IF THEY DON'T DO DAMAGE. The quickfix (to get the ball rolling) is to replace that giant caster level paragraph with two lines: "An erudite does not use his manifester level directly to determine the strength of his spells converted to powers. Instead, when he manifests a spell, the spell functions at a caster level equal to the number of power points he spends on it." This replaces a GIANT chunk of text, removes free scaling from the picture (a 7pp Polymorph is always into a 7 HD form (incidentally, the minimum PP cost to manifest it is equal to the spell's minimum caster level), even at level 20, just like a 7pp energy ball always deals 7d6 damage), and includes a built-in method of preventing the erudite from exceeding his own ML (namely, the ML cap inherent to psionics). This is also internally consistent with the rest of the erudite and syncs up non-damage effects with damage effects. (Seriously, it's not damaging spells that break the game, it's the non-damaging ones.) This would not be enough on its own, but it would be a step in the right direction. As it stands, I think this quote sums it up best:It's like the Erudite just pimpslapped the Archivist.(Note that on the CO boards, the archivist is considered one of the strongest classes in the game, to the point of being able to compete with the druid and the artificer.) I don't mean to sound harsh; it's been a long and trying week for me so far. Enjoy your vacation.
Melayl 06-29-07, 04:07 AM	Basically, the new Erudite rule gives us the ability (with TS's suggestions, IMO) to completely replace casters in a Psi only game, and reduce thier power level, too (if you keep the cap as listed in the article). You'd probably want to state that they could only take Arcane or Divine abilities in one Erudite, though. Just the 2 cp from my sleep-deprived brain...
The Livewire 06-29-07, 04:16 AM	I like Tempest's suggestions too. Besdies, who really worries if the CLW does 1d8+1 or 1d8+5? I'm so jonsing to try an elan erudite thrallherd in my next game. "I'm the Master, and this is my, companion."
Tempest Stormwind 06-29-07, 04:18 AM	On an unrelated note, I would highly suggest linking the editors to the thread I drew Surreal's quote from. Within thirty seconds of reading that ability, I figured out a way to make any erudite of 7th level or higher into the perfect metamind, for instance -- infinite power stamina plus incentive to lay out area smack every round. And that's with ONE spell and ONE item from me, with my "not used to using spells" brain, in less than one minute. I'd hate to see what the optimization regulars can pull off with it.
runestar 06-29-07, 04:26 AM	On an unrelated note, I would highly suggest linking the editors to the thread I drew Surreal's quote from. Within thirty seconds of reading that ability, I figured out a way to make any erudite of 7th level or higher into the perfect metamind, for instance -- infinite power stamina plus incentive to lay out area smack every round. And that's with ONE spell and ONE item from me, with my "not used to using spells" brain, in less than one minute. I'd hate to see what the optimization regulars can pull off with it. The nightmare has already begun...:P http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=876332
Azzy 06-29-07, 06:58 AM	I like Tempest's suggestions too. Besdies, who really worries if the CLW does 1d8+1 or 1d8+5? I'm so jonsing to try an elan erudite thrallherd in my next game. "I'm the Master, and this is my, companion." Oh, you're cheeky, you are.
The Livewire 06-29-07, 07:22 AM	Oh come on. I can't be the only one who looks at the Elan and thinks time lords. :D Especially The Doctor's speech to Rose in School Reunion. Since an Elan remembers (vaugely) their past, this is going to be their first understanding of their aberrant nature, that humans, dwarves, even elves can spend the rest of their lives with the elan, but the elan can't spend the rest of his life with them. That said, an Erudite with the Dominate tree, psionic reformation, and a few other powers/spells could easily start looking at his thralls, and everyone else as 'raw material' "Ah, I need a master diplomat. Come here rogue, I've need to rearrange yuor class skills...."
Wizard Random 06-29-07, 07:51 AM	I'm still going to giggle over a psionic Apocalypse from the sky for 19 pp (the artifact component was changed to a focus in the errata) There definitly needs to be some sort of limit for expensive material components (like Psionic Simulacrum, i make any monster i know of a reality) Hahaha
ck2001wendt 06-29-07, 07:56 AM	I'm on vacation and won't be in the office again till the 16th ... for now if you want to play the spell erudite limit it to arcane spells as that is what we had intended. I am going to see what happened to the wording from our original doc and get that added to the article. I think it got lost in some iteration. If you happen to play it with ANY spell please let me know that works out for ya. I also believe that we wanted the spells that were learned to occupy the space of a power so that you had a limit to how many spells and powers you could have as normal. Although the wording does seem vague doesn't it. I am sure we will get this all worked out shortly and won't panic too many DM's :) --MJ Here's a relevant question: The way you worded the ability suggests that ANY Psion or Psionic character with Spellcraft could use this ability. Was that the intent, or was they meant to be limited to the Erudite?
Azzy 06-29-07, 08:07 AM	Oh come on. I can't be the only one who looks at the Elan and thinks time lords. :D Especially The Doctor's speech to Rose in School Reunion. Since an Elan remembers (vaugely) their past, this is going to be their first understanding of their aberrant nature, that humans, dwarves, even elves can spend the rest of their lives with the elan, but the elan can't spend the rest of his life with them. I hadn't connected the dots until you suggested it, but now that I have I do agree. You see, it's the small things and the different perspectives that make this board enjoyable. That said, an Erudite with the Dominate tree, psionic reformation, and a few other powers/spells could easily start looking at his thralls, and everyone else as 'raw material' "Ah, I need a master diplomat. Come here rogue, I've need to rearrange yuor class skills...." You do realise that I fully expect you to stat up your masterful idea and share it with the rest of the class. ;)
Zarreth_Nessad 06-29-07, 08:58 AM	Oh come on. I can't be the only one who looks at the Elan and thinks time lords. :D Especially The Doctor's speech to Rose in School Reunion. Since an Elan remembers (vaugely) their past, this is going to be their first understanding of their aberrant nature, that humans, dwarves, even elves can spend the rest of their lives with the elan, but the elan can't spend the rest of his life with them. That said, an Erudite with the Dominate tree, psionic reformation, and a few other powers/spells could easily start looking at his thralls, and everyone else as 'raw material' "Ah, I need a master diplomat. Come here rogue, I've need to rearrange yuor class skills...." Right there with you. And there's no need to stat something like that out... just use an Elan Erudite and go into Thrallherd. Other than that (and having those powers), it's highly flexible.
anarchy1973 06-29-07, 09:29 AM	"Favored Discipline Unlike most erudites, you have a discipline that you favor above all others. Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat. Benefit: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning." My question is why even bother playing a Psion now, Erudite loses bonus Feat, yet has Psicrystal Affinity as a Bonus Feat at 1st Level, a lot of people pick this up anyway to fuel their metapsionics when later combined with containment, now you can add the whole of the Egoist list, that covers all your Melee & healing, and only have to worry about unique powers from the other disciplines, which you could pretty much tailor to suit what you need, (i.e) Astral Construct, Energy Missile etc... (that is if you play in a high Psionics campaign.) Two powers per level over twenty levels = 40 + assuming starting Int 16 is +2, so 42 powers now including one whole discipline list, versus Psions 36 powers with again only one discipline list, same number of power points ... The whole thing I love about Psionics is how balanced they are, obviously House Rules can still apply, but I wonder if it does us any favors amongst the Psi haters when this happens ? Not to even mention the whole "Convert Spell to Power" option. Maybe I'm missing something ? Anyway, I guess "any publicity is good publicity" . ? . I know my next Kineticist will now be a Erudite.
Scottbert 06-29-07, 09:38 AM	My question is why even bother playing a Psion now Psions can use all their powers known without worrying about a daily limit of different powers used. Not all campaigns let you pop 'round to Bob's power stone & dorje emporium all the time to pick up new powers to learn, either.
anarchy1973 06-29-07, 09:50 AM	I understand that, however my point is that no matter what Psionic Discipline I play, I always end up wanting powers from another discipline. Erudite starts with more powers known, same PP's, & now having the ability to chose a discipline by sacrificing a Feat, Human Psion = 3 Feats Lvl 1, Human Erudite = 4 Feats Lvl 1 (Including Psicrystal), so what do I lose ? Like I said I play in a reasonably high Psionics Campaign with an understanding DM, & obviously he has the right to house rule what he pleases, my issue is that before like you stated that an Erudite was limited in what he could acquire when he can just "pop 'round to Bob's power stone & dorje emporium all the time to pick up new powers to learn," now he can freely chose what to manifest from an entire Disciplines powers as well. The more I write the less important it seems ...
Khan the Destroyer 06-29-07, 10:01 AM	Not all campaigns let you pop 'round to Bob's power stone & dorje emporium all the time to pick up new powers to learn, either. Preferred customers have the option to purchase dorjes and power stones through the Correspond power and have them delivered to their homes. For an additional fee, Bob will even work with your tight schedule and deliver your purchased items to any dungeons, ruins, or sewers you may be exploring at the time.
Tyroki 06-29-07, 10:25 AM	Oh come on. I can't be the only one who looks at the Elan and thinks time lords. :D Especially The Doctor's speech to Rose in School Reunion. Since an Elan remembers (vaugely) their past, this is going to be their first understanding of their aberrant nature, that humans, dwarves, even elves can spend the rest of their lives with the elan, but the elan can't spend the rest of his life with them. That said, an Erudite with the Dominate tree, psionic reformation, and a few other powers/spells could easily start looking at his thralls, and everyone else as 'raw material' "Ah, I need a master diplomat. Come here rogue, I've need to rearrange yuor class skills...." GENIUS! ^^ Loving these new abilities o.o But I don't think I quite understand the Spell to Power ability... Or at least, I may have an idea, but I'm hoping I'm not right. Could someone please give me an explaination on that ability? Please? For my sanity? >.> *Looks at the Optimisation forums* Oh... no... The new articles been spotted XD
anarchy1973 06-29-07, 10:26 AM	In the Immortal words of Captain McAllister: " Yarrgh I don't know what I'm doing ... "
Wizard Random 06-29-07, 11:54 AM	I just thought i would point out that once a Erudite learned a spell AS A POWER, any OTHER psionic class could learn said psi-spell form the erudite. Either through a power stone / that Psi-Surgery power / or just by touching him... My head is going haywire with the possibilities
Scottbert 06-29-07, 12:07 PM	Preferred customers have the option to purchase dorjes and power stones through the Correspond power and have them delivered to their homes. For an additional fee, Bob will even work with your tight schedule and deliver your purchased items to any dungeons, ruins, or sewers you may be exploring at the time. ...Wow, I want a Bob's in the next psionic game I play in... ...Hey, I wonder if the CO board can figure out a way for a PC to run a Bob's and do all this, profitably? Hmm... now he can freely chose what to manifest from an entire Disciplines powers as well I'm pretty sure the alternate class feature just means he can learn that discipline's powers at level-up, or from another psionic character without being able to manifest higher-level powers. You don't get it automatically.
Wizard Random 06-29-07, 12:13 PM	He learns the powers as normal, so its not at level up its whenever he wants.
Travis_UI 06-29-07, 01:22 PM	I am 100% on board with this latest article being thoroughly awesome, but there's one thing that seriously, seriously bothers me. Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that for the tracker lurk augment list includes (with the asterisk to indicate it functions the same as it does in CPsi) the reach attack augment? I mean, I know that the general consensus is that the Sage doesn't know anything about psionics, but the fact that one WotC web source explicitly says to ignore that augment, that it does not exist, is then followed (within a month!) by another WotC web source referencing it as a legitimate augment just seems...I'm not even sure what the word is... But seriously, Mark, incredible job!
InkBlot 06-29-07, 01:33 PM	It's either a simple Copy/Paste error, or Mark is messing with us. Either way, it feels like dejavu.
Azzy 06-29-07, 02:19 PM	It's either a simple Copy/Paste error, or Mark is messing with us. Either way, it feels like dejavu. Heh. :D
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 02:50 PM	Ok it's Arcane Spells only now. I added that to the text. --MJ
thepsionicbard 06-29-07, 03:37 PM	It is a shame when the web enhancements provide material which is worth more than all the crap in CPsi put together...:( I just might pick up the book now to know more about said classes now...:P i agree reading that info on the lurk got me intreagued :D but i dont want to buy a "crappy" book for one charicter class so im wondering if they put the lurk into any other supplements
InkBlot 06-29-07, 04:40 PM	Honestly, ComPsi has a lot of very useful and fun material. The Lurk, Ardent, and Erudite are all great classes. The Lurk's reach augment is missing, and the Erudite's rules text could be clearer, but it's nothing that impedes play. These classes help create characters of archetypes which were tough to pull off with just the XPH. ComPsi has many good Psychic Warrior powers. Including powers for archer-types and cavalier-types, which were somewhat neglected by the XPH. A handful of powers for other classes are very cool, or very useful (for example, intellect bomb and ethereal abduction). The Soulknife feats are all very nice, and the two Soulknife prestige classes (Soulbow and Illumine Soul) were excellent. Overall the soulknife got a lot of love out of ComPsi. ComPsi did actually clarify one thing from the XPH which people had argued about for a long time: manifesting powers from a power stone using your own power points. Not everybody accepted the rule, but it did help. The racial progressions in the back of the book are nice. They save DMs a bit of work, and give players a new option. Thanks to ComPsi, I might actually play a Githyanki or Githzerai someday. ComPsi gave us Practiced Manifester, Transdimensional Power, Privileged Energy, Paraelemental Power, and several other wonderful feats. It's true that ComPsi gave us lemons such as the Ectopic Adept, and insults such as the Divine Mind and Illithid Heritage feats. There are very few prestige classes and items, due to the bloated format. There's a lot of useless setting information in the back of the book. The three pages of copy/paste racial feats was completely unnecessary. However, maybe 2/3rds of the book is usable, about 1/2 of the useable stuff is good, and (depending on what you're looking for in psionics) a good chunk of the good stuff is excellent. The rest can be ignored with a DC 25 autohypnosis check. Basically, get ComPsi if you use psionics all the time.
rilem 06-29-07, 04:42 PM	im wondering if they put the lurk into any other supplements No, and I wouldn't expect them to. I like the Divine Mind stuff — it enables some good stuff when mixed with Paladin. Swap D.M. Divine Grace for Turn Undead; Swap Paladin Turn Undead for one of the many variants (like Pounce, Extra Attack, etc.) that are handy but not normally worth giving up turning for.
WyvernSlayer 06-29-07, 04:54 PM	I've read over all the new material that Mark has released and have to say I am very happy with it overall. In regards to Erudites new ability: I have to say it is wonderful and very versatile. It's modeling after UA's spellpoints should have been handled differently, and could be fixed quite easily as pointed above however. As far as being overpowered goes I tend to disagree. I note that powerful combinations are available, but they tend to be available to pretty much any class, especially 9th level casting/manifesting ones. Remember the Erudite has 11 unique powers per day at 20th level. As a DM, and as a player for plethora of years, I have yet to see any good Mage styled class get by on just a handful of spells. Especially in any setting where they are challenged by multiple encounters per day.
Marcus Smythe 06-29-07, 05:06 PM	The Spell Casting Erudite is probably close to going over the edge of being broken but also not all that different from playing the Mage/Psi combo. When we were working on this our intent was to create a variant erudite that fill the role of psion but also have the ability to pick up the utility of the mage for partys that don't have a mage. I could swear that there was some wording that noted we intended this for arcane spells so now I'm gonna have to check our playtest docs... Anyway, I would probably allow it in a psi only campaign or in a party with a mage I would monitor which spells the erudite has and adjust the encounters slightly as though a second mage were there etc... It was fun testing this.. --MJ Id leaves the real casters in their rightful place of dominance, or it gets the hose again.
InkBlot 06-29-07, 05:06 PM	Of all these expanded classes, I'm most likely to use the lurk ones. I had already wanted to make a "psionic tracker" lurk before, and now there's mechanical support for it! Dominant Ideal strikes me as being slightly overpowered if the reduction is per-feat (so you could apply extended, empowered, and burrowing at no extra cost). If it's per-power (so you could apply extended, empowered, and burrowing at only +4pp), then it's awesome. Just being able to apply meta feats without expending focus is worth more than the two feats (Tap Mantle and Don Mantle) it would take to get back the secondary mantle you lost. I'd probably use this if I ever play an ardent, but chances of me playing an ardent are a little slim. I rather like the ectopic ally, but I'd rather snag it for use with another class (soulknife maybe) than use it with the divine mind. God-granted powers just rub me the wrong way.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 06-29-07, 05:23 PM	Is it just me or did they not explain Psionic Stride for the Tracker variant lurk? Great. Now two lurk augments that we don't know how they work. I really love the tracker lurk. I'm gonna try it sometime. It'd be really nice if I could research a power to reshape my psicrystal. Implant it in some item I expect to get stolen, and then use my tracking abilities to chase after the psicrystal. Or have a mage or something polymorph into something small to follow and track the mage. Nice.
Khan the Destroyer 06-29-07, 06:46 PM	In my opinion, the Erudite ability is as broken as anything else. A standard wizard is broken. So is a cleric or druid. This variant is powerful, but mostly in the sense of adding a lot of versatility. The Erudite is still limited to how many unique powers he can manifest in one day. Exploits like the one Tempest pointed out are as easy to avoid as simply playing with reasonable people. I don't think anything really needs to be done beyond already limiting it to arcane spells. If someone still thinks it's way overpowered, don't use it. The other two variants are still pretty neat.
Nite_shade 06-29-07, 07:06 PM	The problem I'm seeing is that it pretty much obsoletes the Cerebremancer. The only benefit from it is wider access to spells and maybe slightly more overall casting/manifesting usage per/day. Wide access to spells is now easily available by being an Erudite alone with literally no downside.
Kiklio 06-29-07, 07:13 PM	The "Substitute Powers" section is excellent for players and DM's. It eliminates the only real complaint with the ardent class: incomplete mantle lists. Very nice. "Ectopic Ally" is very confusing. You gain the ability to manifest a single type of ectopic construct as an ally to aid you in your cause. You must choose a single type of ectopic construct that represents you and your faith, and this cannot be changed once chosen. Benefit: You can manifest the astral construct power as a psi-like ability once per day for every two levels. You may sacrifice an additional daily use to augment the power one level per use/day that is sacrificed. The power manifests at your class level. "Ectopic Construct"? Does that mean a construct available from the Ectopic Form feat? What does it mean to "augment the power one level"? One manifester level? One astral construct "level"? This text brings an OotS gag to mind. In addition, do those lurk augments which mimic class features (liek trapfinding) require augments to activate? If so, what is their duration? It's very useful for WotC's to be able to edit this material, because lots of rules need clarifying because not enough text has been put in to explaining them. Write all that you need to make everything very clear: it's the Internet! Put in those excellent "For example" paragraphs! We'll thank you for it!
Khan the Destroyer 06-29-07, 07:34 PM	The problem I'm seeing is that it pretty much obsoletes the Cerebremancer. The only benefit from it is wider access to spells and maybe slightly more overall casting/manifesting usage per/day. Wide access to spells is now easily available by being an Erudite alone with literally no downside. The downside is that on any given day, you only have access to a few of your vast powers known. Further, unlike a cerebremancer, you don't simply learn all of these spells through level advancement. You have to find them, and pay for them in XP and possibly gold. Also, you pay for them with time. And you get them 1 level later (though relative to the cerebremancer, you're still ahead). And finally, every spell you learn is a power you didn't learn. These powers aren't free. Far from it. At 8 hours per day, and then XP, and gold (or wealth) on top of it, you'd have to be swimming in resources to learn all of the powers and spells you wanted to. And then after all that, you can still only manifest a few of them each day. The only issues I see is an exploitation of the Spell Point system, or some power/spell combos. But I don't think an Erudite having the option to learn spells is inherently broken. At least, no more broken than spells are already.
Tempest Stormwind 06-29-07, 08:21 PM	The downside is that on any given day, you only have access to a few of your vast powers known.Which is completely mitigated by Imprint Stone, which already was really high on the erudite's list of feats to take. Now it's essential. The erudite was fine before. This article puts it over the top and firmly into archivist-level brokenness (with a slight mitigation due to the unique powers limit).
Khan the Destroyer 06-29-07, 08:25 PM	Which is completely mitigated by Imprint Stone, which already was really high on the erudite's list of feats to take. Now it's essential. I'll have to reread Imprint Stone. I thought the powers were at minimum manifester level when used out of the stone, as per magic item rules. Of course, certain spell->power conversions might be problematic even minimum manifester level. But now we're talking about researching powers, spells, and crafting items. The erudite was fine before. This article puts it over the top and firmly into archivist-level brokenness (with a slight mitigation due to the unique powers limit). I understand. It's just... nothing else gets fixed. Why bother here? Am I jaded?
Xaxor 06-29-07, 08:38 PM	That was cool. I'm not that big on the new classes, but I can see plenty of usefulness in this article. I'm more excited about the monsters next month though. Have a good vacation Mark!
Wotc_Mark 06-29-07, 08:51 PM	PM me any questions about the article and I will see what I can do about them when I return around the 16th. :) --MJ p.s. I will be at Origins in Ohio next saturday for a short while ... I will be the short fat guy with glasses ... um ... and probably the only guy with a GLEEMAX t-shirt in the crowd.
Azzy 06-29-07, 10:12 PM	PM me any questions about the article and I will see what I can do about them when I return around the 16th. :) Thanks, Mark. You really do a lot for the psionic community (even past writing the articles), and your customer service skills are par none. So, can you tell us who can we bug to get you that well-deserved raise? :D
crizhII 06-30-07, 12:45 PM	Ok it's Arcane Spells only now. I added that to the text. --MJ Does that not drive you crazy? The article spends six weeks plus in editing and it's the editor that mucks it up and you end up doing his job for him. :D
Andramadus 06-30-07, 01:02 PM	I think you should be adle to choose divine or arcane when you select the feat just for added flavor. Or be able to take it as a normal feat multiple times(for those who want both divine and arcane). A third option is to let wizards take the feat and use psionic powers.;)
Toxic_Shaman 06-30-07, 01:11 PM	I like that Psionics has a different flavor and somewhat unique powers. If I wanted to play a wizard I'd play a wizard. This trend is a bad one IMO.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-30-07, 01:14 PM	I'll have to reread Imprint Stone. I thought the powers were at minimum manifester level when used out of the stone, as per magic item rules. The manifester level is chosen by the person creating the stone at the time of creation, with a minimum manifester level of that which is required to manifest the power normally. Generally, unless it is specifically requested to an NPC to make it higher, the only stones you can find for sale are at the minimum manifester level. Some exceptions apply, mostly like where a wand of Magic Missile can be generally bought at a higher manifester level than normal (ie you might find a stone of energy missile at higher than it's base level).
Andramadus 06-30-07, 01:49 PM	Now Erudites can have true invisibility.
Jaid 06-30-07, 02:50 PM	A third option is to let wizards take the feat and use psionic powers.;)actually, i think wizards get that just from being wizards, more or less... (anything you can do i can do better...)
awaken_D_M_golem 07-02-07, 08:43 PM	Lurk - Tracker Wow. 17th level lurk augment is Metafaculty w/ no exp cost !!! You have to "tag" your target first with the first level lurk augment. BUT, you can "tag" at a distance with the Ranged Lurk Augment feat. AND, you can "tag" at planar distances with Remote Viewing; available around 13th level. mmm ... kay Can you say 7pp + 1 LAug + 1 more LAug for Epic level Divining? :eek: At level 20 with an Int of 38, you'd get 34 lurk-aug uses, then divide by 2, equals 17 loops. 17 X 17 = 289 defacto power points. Not including the Epic Spell DC increase of losing 1000exp cost each time. VERY good stuff.
CrimsonDeath 07-02-07, 10:43 PM	The erudite was fine before. This article puts it over the top and firmly into archivist-level brokenness (with a slight mitigation due to the unique powers limit). Ooh... Erudite/Archivist/Psychic Theurge... Or gestalt... *drools* Maybe we need a list of arcane spells, and the classes that get them at the lowest level?
Nite_shade 07-03-07, 01:43 AM	Ooh... Erudite/Archivist/Psychic Theurge... Or gestalt... *drools* Maybe we need a list of arcane spells, and the classes that get them at the lowest level? Yeah... I definitely think they should consider which list the Erudite should use and restrict it to that list.
PEBKAC 07-03-07, 04:25 PM	Since Mark is looking at this thread, perhaps you could take the time and perhaps answer definitively one question I have regarding the Erudite. Other than the two Psion/Wilder powers they gain at each level, can they add additional powers from the Psion/Wilder list in the same way that they add Discipline powers? If so, are they limited to the one level lower than the highest power they know, or can it be equal to their highest level? I was hoping the Sage would answer this when he was doing Psionics, but no luck :( .
calronmoonflower 07-04-07, 01:36 AM	Since Mark is looking at this thread, perhaps you could take the time and perhaps answer definitively one question I have regarding the Erudite. Other than the two Psion/Wilder powers they gain at each level, can they add additional powers from the Psion/Wilder list in the same way that they add Discipline powers? Well I'm not Mark, but I'll try to answer this one. I've read over the ways an erudite can learn powers and it doesn't say that you cannot. The method would seem to work with all powers. If so, are they limited to the one level lower than the highest power they know, or can it be equal to their highest level? I was hoping the Sage would answer this when he was doing Psionics, but no luck :( . Actually the limit is one below the max power level know on the far right of the table. I don't see a limited listed for non-discipline powers.
geimer 07-04-07, 03:37 AM	So this maybe just me being a little confused, assuming an ardent takes dominant ideal can they apply more then one metapsionic feat to a given ability when manifesting or is it still only one as though you were expending the focus?
CrimsonDeath 07-04-07, 04:01 AM	I'd assume so, since a character with more than one psionic focus (thanks to Psicrystal Containment, for example) can apply more than one metapsionic feat to a power at a time. Unfortunately, I have trouble building an Ardent with a repertoire that I'd want to play, and I'm not sure which mantle that would make Dominant Ideal abusable. (Maybe Energy with Empower, Maximize, and Burrowing, or Physical Power with Quicken and Extend...)
ReaderOfPosts 07-05-07, 10:47 AM	Our DM put a rather sensible house rule up that only wizard spells can be gotten from the erudites ability. It stops the archivist style early access to bard and various prestige class spells, as well as making sense (only spells gained by those who learn their art by studying magic can be learned by Erudite's who do so).
Ecu 07-05-07, 05:11 PM	Personally, there are some specific changes that need to be done in order to make the "spell as power" variant function balanced. These changes come from a discussion between me and Tempest. We had a long discussion about the issue and I do feel that these changes better the Erudite a lot. A) - The new power's default caster level is equal to it's base power point cost and can be augmented by one caster level per power point spent (to a maximum caster level equal to the Erudite's manifestor level). All effects are basted off of this caster level. B) - Any spell with a costly material component requires an XP cost of 1 XP per 5 gold instead of the component. C) - The converted spell becomes a power, it is treaded as a power instead of a spell for all spells, powers, and abilities that affect powers. D) - The Erudite may not convert any spell that manipulates prepared spells ("Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer"), spell slots ("Arcane Fusion", "Absorption"), or power points ("Dweomer of Transferrence", "Mental Pinnacle"). These changes to the system actually make it more thematically fit the concept of an Erudite being able to actually mimic a spell with his psionic talent instead of only "casting a spell with power points." Anyways. Haven't playtested these yet, they should be good.. lemme know if anyone does. Ciao, Ecu
awaken_D_M_golem 07-11-07, 04:42 PM	Ardent + Dominant Ideal + Hustle {must have the requisite mantle} For 4 pp, you get a move action this round AND next round. And then you do it again the next round. Sacrifice your swift action and 4pp per round to pick up 2 move actions. Sweet. Is it worth it relative to Synchronicity?
NatchFeral 07-11-07, 05:17 PM	Erudite --> Broken Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13029333&postcount=75), and Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13029632&postcount=78).
awaken_D_M_golem 07-20-07, 05:25 PM	Erudite 5 learns Alter Self as a 2nd level power. And takes Metamorphic Transfer feat. Win. Doesn't Spell to Power make all 1st level Wiz spells accessible to Hidden Talent ?! I think the 2pp material component augment is restricted to Erudite only. Tough luck non-Erudites.
geimer 07-31-07, 01:17 AM	So does anyone think it would be cool to have a feat that can give an increase to number of powers you can manifest in day for a Erudite? Like taking the feat allowing to manifest an additional two powers a day.
Suldarr'essalar 07-31-07, 01:56 AM	One additional power per feat would be enough IMO.
CrimsonDeath 07-31-07, 03:07 AM	Erudite 5 learns Alter Self as a 2nd level power. And takes Metamorphic Transfer feat. Win. I don't think humanoids would get much mileage out of that... but creatures of other types could have some interesting options.
AskaniPsion 07-31-07, 07:28 AM	So does anyone think it would be cool to have a feat that can give an increase to number of powers you can manifest in day for a Erudite? Like taking the feat allowing to manifest an additional two powers a day. They already had a feat that gave you one additional use per day - it was in the Dragon magazine where the Erudite originally appeared.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-01-07, 08:41 PM	CrimsonDeath - Bingo. It's rare that Humans or humanoids might not be the best build. Very rare. Elans are aberrations ... wait for it ... and so are Beholders. And now you know the rest of that story. Ectopic Ally - strikes me as being adaptable, or even Psychic Reformation-able. It is Astral Construct. It's a psi-like ablity, which are descibed as being powers, in some regards. There is a selection involved, i.e. does one take it at 1st level or not; does one PHB2 retrain it later. This seems to fit what Psy Ref can effect. A 6th level power can go in at 20th level. A 5th level power can go in at 17th level. A 4 at 14th; a 3 at 11th; a 2 at 8th. Mind you, Wizards and Clerics have been able to do this - with less consternation - for awhile. Oh yeah, and the power would have to be on one of the Divine Minds 3 Mantles. Tough, but interesting. I'd say it's 2/3rd respectable.
CrimsonDeath 08-01-07, 09:29 PM	CrimsonDeath - Bingo. It's rare that Humans or humanoids might not be the best build. Very rare. Elans are aberrations ... wait for it ... and so are Beholders. And now you know the rest of that story. I think the end of the story is that even a Gauth has six HD, so it's not a valid Alter Self form. Eyeballs have few enough HD, but they're Tiny, too small for any PC Aberration race that I can think of... So, that leaves us with Metamorphosis, which lets you take the shape of an Aberration anyway. Speaking of splat-books, I just noticed the Spectator in Lords of Madness. 4HD aberration with an Eye Rays (Su), which includes Inflict Moderate Wounds and Hold Monster, and Spell Turning (Su) as a 90' cone. Ethereal Filcher, Gibbering Mouther, and Grick (for DR 10/magic) are options from the MM, and others may present themselves if you venture farther into splat-book territory. Meanwhile, Necropolitans, Tieflings, and Warforged would also pick up some interesting capabilities from this trick. Ectopic Ally - strikes me as being adaptable, or even Psychic Reformation-able. It is Astral Construct. It's a psi-like ablity, which are descibed as being powers, in some regards. Powers are considered psi-like abilities, but psi-like abilities are not considered powers. Furthermore, as I understand it, Psychic Reformation only allows you to change the choices you could have legally made at the level when you first made them.
awaken_D_M_golem 08-02-07, 07:19 PM	Alter Self - yeah, I'm thinking it's just cheaper than Metamorphosis if you're going for Metamorphic Transfer. There might be some wicked 3 to 8 HD combo out there, for something. At 9 HD, a regular Psion has both the power and the feat, so at this point it's just a discount. Not Bad. Psy Ref and Ecto Ally. Admittedly, it's a stretch. But we are talking about the Divine Mind. A 1st level power is just not that great at 15th level. I'll have to look closer at Psi-like vs. Power interactions. Definitely adaptable. Hey, that Hidden Talent at 1st level is -fested at ML. And Ecto Ally is -fested at ML, and goes up. So the HT power can be -fested at ML, instead of ML-4 for all the others. Is the Divine Mind almost playable now? ;) With my "interpretation", I'd say yes.