Expanded Knowledge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Expanded Knowledge Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ryzak
03-17-07, 08:08 AM Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge?

I make the comparison due to spellcasters as they can cast metamagic'ed spells up to 10th level at lvl 19.

Thanks!
Ra-Tiel
03-17-07, 08:32 AM Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge?
From my reading of the feat, no. From level 17 on the highest level of powers you can manifest is 9, therefore you're stuck with learning level 8 or lower powers by virtue of the "Expanded Knowledge" feat.

If you want to learn additional level 9 powers, you'd have to wait until level 21 and use the "Epic Expanded Knowledge" feat.

I make the comparison due to spellcasters as they can cast metamagic'ed spells up to 10th level at lvl 19.

Thanks!
What do you mean with that? A caster not using any of the material that allows him to apply metamagic feats without a level increase (like metamagic rods, or the "Divine Metamagic" feat) is also stuck with level 9 spells. :confused:
Bacris
03-17-07, 08:41 AM Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge?

While you may have the manifester level to manifest what might be classified as a 10th level power, you do not know a 10th level power. A 1st level power augmented is still a 1st level power. The same is true to a power augmented to 19+ pps.
Ryzak
03-17-07, 10:36 AM great! thanks all/

As far as spell casting, from what I've seen etc......a spell caster that wants to cast an admixture, maximized, blah blah blah fireball spell (normally 3rd lvl) with those metamagics, lets' say =10th lvl spell. If the spellcaster is at the proper lvl to do it, say, lvl 19, he can do it. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it

Enlighten me if i'm wrong! (still learning all the rules :) )
runestar
03-17-07, 10:42 AM You don't get slots higher than 9th lv before lv20.
At lv21 and later, you can take the epic feat 'improved spell capacity' which can be used to give you 10th lv slots and higher. While this would in theory allow you to choose 9th lv spells with extra spell, there is no reason to do so since you have access to the vastly superior "spell knowledge" epic feat.
Lamorake
03-17-07, 12:39 PM If you are looking to learn additional 9th lvl powers, there's always the option of Independent Research (9 weeks, 1,800 exp you have a 9th lvl power).
Emeramber
03-17-07, 01:11 PM great! thanks all/

As far as spell casting, from what I've seen etc......a spell caster that wants to cast an admixture, maximized, blah blah blah fireball spell (normally 3rd lvl) with those metamagics, lets' say =10th lvl spell. If the spellcaster is at the proper lvl to do it, say, lvl 19, he can do it. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it

Enlighten me if i'm wrong! (still learning all the rules :) )

Actually, that fireball is just a third level spell still, it has just been, effectively, augmented. With energy admixture and maximize it would require a 10th level slot, barring ways of adding it for free or less, but it's still cancelled out by a Globe of Invulnerability like a regular third level spell, and it wouldn't qualify you for "Able to cast a 4th level arcane spell". Even Heighten, which does change effective spell level and could qualify for either of those, has a maximum effective level of 9th.
JulesCARV
03-17-07, 01:37 PM There's also psychic chirurgery. If you're a telepath who wants to learn genesis, say, then all you have to do is implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in a high-level shaper's head, then persuade the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. If you're, say, an egoist who wants to learn genesis, then it's a bit more convoluted. First, you have to get a telepath to implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in the shaper's head, then you have to get the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head.

I think this is all easier if you're a telepath/thrallherd, both because you have immediate access to psychic chirurgery, and because you have thralls, who can be psions, and who are likely to be more cooperative than most in exchanging powers with you (they won't agree to everything automatically, and will still probably want compensation for manifesting a 1,000 xp power on you (possibly in the form of having you teach them a power, possibly in platinum, possibly in something else), but they're easier to bargain with than some psion who has no relationship to you).
Red12
03-17-07, 02:33 PM seeing as you have to be level 19 before you can get it, I wouldn't have an issue with you taking it. Not RAW, but not overpowered either.

It essentially limits it to someone with full manifester levels (in psionics, generally means no PrC's) and a bonus feat at 20. (as your last normal feat is at 18.)

So you are looking at 1 expanded knowledge 9th level power? Not too bad. Especially concidering 9th level powers aren't in the same class as 9th level spells. (generally).
AntiDjinn
03-17-07, 03:05 PM There's also psychic chirurgery. If you're a telepath who wants to learn genesis, say, then all you have to do is implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in a high-level shaper's head, then persuade the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. If you're, say, an egoist who wants to learn genesis, then it's a bit more convoluted. First, you have to get a telepath to implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in the shaper's head, then you have to get the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head.

If by "all you have to do" you mean "spend 9000 XP to teach the shaper Psychic Chiurgery, then ask him to spend 9000 to teach you Genesis" then yes, that is all you have to do. If both targets are willing they may split the XP cost each way (for what that is worth -- it still amounts to 9KXP each). Note: this costs you 4KXP more than a Wish. Independent research of a 9th level power can be much cheaper; a mere 1800 XP (and 9 weeks of your time, as opposed to 10 minutes) if you make the Psicraft roll (blow the roll, and you fail and have to pay the XP and take the time if you want to try again). The major advantages offered by the Psychic Chiurgery method are: Certainty, no down time, and the fact that it actually gives you the power slot, which independent research, explicitly, does not.
JulesCARV
03-17-07, 05:04 PM Oh. I missed the power level multiplier.
AntiDjinn
03-17-07, 09:10 PM In 3.0 it used to be an absurd 3000 XP/power level to transfer knowledge and there was no provision to willingly split the cost. So to teach someone a 9th level power cost 27,000 XP (that was just 10K shy of what an 18th level psion needed to make 20th).

With XPH the cost for higher level powers is still steep (anything above 5th level is more expensive than a Wish) but it is at least roughly in line with what it would cost to give the subject an unslotted item capable of manifesting the power. The upside is this "item" can't be stolen and there is no gold piece cost to make it, the downside is the subject must actually manifest the power with his own points.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryzak 03-17-07, 08:08 AM	Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge? I make the comparison due to spellcasters as they can cast metamagic'ed spells up to 10th level at lvl 19. Thanks!
Ra-Tiel 03-17-07, 08:32 AM	Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge? From my reading of the feat, no. From level 17 on the highest level of powers you can manifest is 9, therefore you're stuck with learning level 8 or lower powers by virtue of the "Expanded Knowledge" feat. If you want to learn additional level 9 powers, you'd have to wait until level 21 and use the "Epic Expanded Knowledge" feat. I make the comparison due to spellcasters as they can cast metamagic'ed spells up to 10th level at lvl 19. Thanks! What do you mean with that? A caster not using any of the material that allows him to apply metamagic feats without a level increase (like metamagic rods, or the "Divine Metamagic" feat) is also stuck with level 9 spells. :confused:
Bacris 03-17-07, 08:41 AM	Expanded Knowledge states you can only learn a power one level below the highest level you know. If you are level 19 and can technically cast 10th level powers, can you learn a 9th level power from expanded knowledge? While you may have the manifester level to manifest what might be classified as a 10th level power, you do not know a 10th level power. A 1st level power augmented is still a 1st level power. The same is true to a power augmented to 19+ pps.
Ryzak 03-17-07, 10:36 AM	great! thanks all/ As far as spell casting, from what I've seen etc......a spell caster that wants to cast an admixture, maximized, blah blah blah fireball spell (normally 3rd lvl) with those metamagics, lets' say =10th lvl spell. If the spellcaster is at the proper lvl to do it, say, lvl 19, he can do it. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it Enlighten me if i'm wrong! (still learning all the rules :) )
runestar 03-17-07, 10:42 AM	You don't get slots higher than 9th lv before lv20. At lv21 and later, you can take the epic feat 'improved spell capacity' which can be used to give you 10th lv slots and higher. While this would in theory allow you to choose 9th lv spells with extra spell, there is no reason to do so since you have access to the vastly superior "spell knowledge" epic feat.
Lamorake 03-17-07, 12:39 PM	If you are looking to learn additional 9th lvl powers, there's always the option of Independent Research (9 weeks, 1,800 exp you have a 9th lvl power).
Emeramber 03-17-07, 01:11 PM	great! thanks all/ As far as spell casting, from what I've seen etc......a spell caster that wants to cast an admixture, maximized, blah blah blah fireball spell (normally 3rd lvl) with those metamagics, lets' say =10th lvl spell. If the spellcaster is at the proper lvl to do it, say, lvl 19, he can do it. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it Enlighten me if i'm wrong! (still learning all the rules :) ) Actually, that fireball is just a third level spell still, it has just been, effectively, augmented. With energy admixture and maximize it would require a 10th level slot, barring ways of adding it for free or less, but it's still cancelled out by a Globe of Invulnerability like a regular third level spell, and it wouldn't qualify you for "Able to cast a 4th level arcane spell". Even Heighten, which does change effective spell level and could qualify for either of those, has a maximum effective level of 9th.
JulesCARV 03-17-07, 01:37 PM	There's also psychic chirurgery. If you're a telepath who wants to learn genesis, say, then all you have to do is implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in a high-level shaper's head, then persuade the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. If you're, say, an egoist who wants to learn genesis, then it's a bit more convoluted. First, you have to get a telepath to implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in the shaper's head, then you have to get the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. I think this is all easier if you're a telepath/thrallherd, both because you have immediate access to psychic chirurgery, and because you have thralls, who can be psions, and who are likely to be more cooperative than most in exchanging powers with you (they won't agree to everything automatically, and will still probably want compensation for manifesting a 1,000 xp power on you (possibly in the form of having you teach them a power, possibly in platinum, possibly in something else), but they're easier to bargain with than some psion who has no relationship to you).
Red12 03-17-07, 02:33 PM	seeing as you have to be level 19 before you can get it, I wouldn't have an issue with you taking it. Not RAW, but not overpowered either. It essentially limits it to someone with full manifester levels (in psionics, generally means no PrC's) and a bonus feat at 20. (as your last normal feat is at 18.) So you are looking at 1 expanded knowledge 9th level power? Not too bad. Especially concidering 9th level powers aren't in the same class as 9th level spells. (generally).
AntiDjinn 03-17-07, 03:05 PM	There's also psychic chirurgery. If you're a telepath who wants to learn genesis, say, then all you have to do is implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in a high-level shaper's head, then persuade the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. If you're, say, an egoist who wants to learn genesis, then it's a bit more convoluted. First, you have to get a telepath to implant knowledge of psychic chirurgery in the shaper's head, then you have to get the shaper to implant knowledge of genesis in your head. If by "all you have to do" you mean "spend 9000 XP to teach the shaper Psychic Chiurgery, then ask him to spend 9000 to teach you Genesis" then yes, that is all you have to do. If both targets are willing they may split the XP cost each way (for what that is worth -- it still amounts to 9KXP each). Note: this costs you 4KXP more than a Wish. Independent research of a 9th level power can be much cheaper; a mere 1800 XP (and 9 weeks of your time, as opposed to 10 minutes) if you make the Psicraft roll (blow the roll, and you fail and have to pay the XP and take the time if you want to try again). The major advantages offered by the Psychic Chiurgery method are: Certainty, no down time, and the fact that it actually gives you the power slot, which independent research, explicitly, does not.
JulesCARV 03-17-07, 05:04 PM	Oh. I missed the power level multiplier.
AntiDjinn 03-17-07, 09:10 PM	In 3.0 it used to be an absurd 3000 XP/power level to transfer knowledge and there was no provision to willingly split the cost. So to teach someone a 9th level power cost 27,000 XP (that was just 10K shy of what an 18th level psion needed to make 20th). With XPH the cost for higher level powers is still steep (anything above 5th level is more expensive than a Wish) but it is at least roughly in line with what it would cost to give the subject an unslotted item capable of manifesting the power. The upside is this "item" can't be stolen and there is no gold piece cost to make it, the downside is the subject must actually manifest the power with his own points.