Expansion, a size question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Expansion, a size question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sickseelah
09-06-07, 12:57 AM In page 20 of the Monster's Manual it gives a table of size adjustments which i get from a psionic's Expansion ability. What i'm curious about is the following from medium to large:

Str+8
dex -2
con +4
Natural Armor+3
AC/Attack -1

Ok now here's the part i'm confused about. AC and attack are -1, yet my strength which also accounts for my to hit is beyond that, as is my natural armor. In this instance would the final boosts be the following?:

dmg+4
Con+4
AC: (+3) - (1+1[from dex])= +1
to hit: (+4) - (1) = +3

Or am i misinterpreting?
Fireclave
09-06-07, 01:02 AM What Tempast said in your other thread.

The answer is no. Expansion covers all the relevant parts within it. The effect from changing size is subsumed with the changes from the power, just for sake of convenience. All you do is change your size modifier, space, and reach, and add in the ability score shifts as described in the power.
munin
09-06-07, 10:01 AM The table in the Monster Manual has nothing to do with the expansion power. As Tempest said, the description of the expansion power explains exactly what happens and no more should be inferred (well, the size bonus may need adjustment if you start from a size category other than Small, Medium, or Large).

The table in the Monster Manual is not about what happens when you supernaturally increase the size of a creature, it's about designing creatures which are a different size than the standard creatures presented in the book. The book is saying, here are the stats for a typical wolf, but if you need a wolf for a challenge that's bigger than usual, here are the changes you should make to its stats to better represent the greater challenge. Many creatures (which don't advance by class levels, and some that do) have a line in their description which describes their advancement -- what a creature with more Hit Dice looks like. The Changes to Statistics by Size table describes the changes you should make to a creature's statistics if the animal has enough Hit Dice that it is larger than typical. These larger creatures may represent a natural growth of the creature (they keep getting larger as they age), or they may represent atypical members of their species (sometimes a wolf is born who is just bigger and stronger than all the others).

As to your questions about AC/attack and strength (which is relevant to the expansion power), here are the resulting changes from expansion:

melee attack rolls: +0 (+1 from Str, -1 from size)
ranged attack rolls: -2 (-1 from Dex, -1 from size)
damage rolls: +1* (+1 from Str)
AC: -2 (-1 from size, -1 from Dex)

* In addition to the +1 damage from your increased Strength, the damage dealt will also increase because larger weapons typically do greater damage. This alone is often the greatest reason for using the power. Oh, and reach.

Your increased size category will also help with combat maneuvers like bull rushing, grappling, etc.

Carrying capacity is more complicated. Increasing your size category increases the multiplier by which you adjust your carrying capacity. For example, if you started as a Str 10 Medium biped, your maximum load would be 100 lbs. After you manifested expansion, you'd be a Str 12 Large biped and your maximum load would be 260 lbs (130 lbs. for Str 12, times 2 for Large). That seems like a lot, but there's some question as to whether expansion increases the weight of your gear by 2 (the normal weight for an object one size category larger) or by 8 (a strict reading of the power's description and the obvious physical result from doubling an object's dimensions), in which case you might suddenly be carrying much more than you expected.

If this is suddenly not sounding like the great deal you thought it was, remember it's only a 1st-level power.
Sickseelah
09-06-07, 12:23 PM Ah i get it now, shucks, guess it isn't as overpowered as i once thought it was. I'll still probably take it though granted that i'm playing a monk/psywar and i would like the upg to unarmed dmg.
forsaken1111
09-06-07, 04:43 PM Ah i get it now, shucks, guess it isn't as overpowered as i once thought it was. I'll still probably take it though granted that i'm playing a monk/psywar and i would like the upg to unarmed dmg.

Just remember, making yourself bigger isn't always practical. Many adventures are in cramped caves, narrow hallways, or smallish rooms. If you turn into a 15ft tall version of you, you may find that the penalties for fighting in a space smaller than your height outweigh the benefits. :)
CrimsonDeath
09-06-07, 04:59 PM Just remember, making yourself bigger isn't always practical. Many adventures are in cramped caves, narrow hallways, or smallish rooms. If you turn into a 15ft tall version of you, you may find that the penalties for fighting in a space smaller than your height outweigh the benefits. :)

I don't think you can do that anyway. Doesn't the power say that it fails if the space you're in can't accomodate your new size?

Also, for an Expanding PsyWar/Monk, you may consider looking into a career in grappling.
forsaken1111
09-06-07, 05:01 PM I don't think you can do that anyway. Doesn't the power say that it fails if the space you're in can't accomodate your new size?

Also, for an Expanding PsyWar/Monk, you may consider looking into a career in grappling.

Yes, but if you're in a 20ft square room with a 10ft ceiling, you can certainly fit a 15ft tall person. He would simply have to hunch over and it would be rather uncomfortable.

If you manifested expansion while nailed in a coffin, however, I believe it fails. (Though your DM might give you a strength check to break out or something.)
CrimsonDeath
09-06-07, 06:32 PM If you manifested expansion while nailed in a coffin, however, I believe it fails. (Though your DM might give you a strength check to break out or something.)

Actually, you're right. You do get a Strength check (using your newly increased Strength modifier) to break whatever's confining you. Only if that check fails do you stop growing.
Sickseelah
09-06-07, 10:17 PM Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead.

I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping?
forsaken1111
09-06-07, 10:25 PM Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead.

I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping?

Well if you grapple someone who doesn't have a light weapon and you do, you can hurt them each turn without them hurting you. Grappling is also great if you use armor spikes as your main weapon.
Fireclave
09-06-07, 10:52 PM And let's not making it hard, or sometimes completely impossible, for casters to cast their spells.
CrimsonDeath
09-07-07, 12:30 AM Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead.

I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping?

You could do both. There's no reason you can't grapple a prone opponent, and "rise from prone" isn't on the list of things you can do while grappled. The +4 bonus to hit a prone opponent negates the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. Just be careful not to grapple anyone while there are enemy rogues lurking about. Or lurks rogueing about, for that matter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sickseelah 09-06-07, 12:57 AM	In page 20 of the Monster's Manual it gives a table of size adjustments which i get from a psionic's Expansion ability. What i'm curious about is the following from medium to large: Str+8 dex -2 con +4 Natural Armor+3 AC/Attack -1 Ok now here's the part i'm confused about. AC and attack are -1, yet my strength which also accounts for my to hit is beyond that, as is my natural armor. In this instance would the final boosts be the following?: dmg+4 Con+4 AC: (+3) - (1+1[from dex])= +1 to hit: (+4) - (1) = +3 Or am i misinterpreting?
Fireclave 09-06-07, 01:02 AM	What Tempast said in your other thread. The answer is no. Expansion covers all the relevant parts within it. The effect from changing size is subsumed with the changes from the power, just for sake of convenience. All you do is change your size modifier, space, and reach, and add in the ability score shifts as described in the power.
munin 09-06-07, 10:01 AM	The table in the Monster Manual has nothing to do with the expansion power. As Tempest said, the description of the expansion power explains exactly what happens and no more should be inferred (well, the size bonus may need adjustment if you start from a size category other than Small, Medium, or Large). The table in the Monster Manual is not about what happens when you supernaturally increase the size of a creature, it's about designing creatures which are a different size than the standard creatures presented in the book. The book is saying, here are the stats for a typical wolf, but if you need a wolf for a challenge that's bigger than usual, here are the changes you should make to its stats to better represent the greater challenge. Many creatures (which don't advance by class levels, and some that do) have a line in their description which describes their advancement -- what a creature with more Hit Dice looks like. The Changes to Statistics by Size table describes the changes you should make to a creature's statistics if the animal has enough Hit Dice that it is larger than typical. These larger creatures may represent a natural growth of the creature (they keep getting larger as they age), or they may represent atypical members of their species (sometimes a wolf is born who is just bigger and stronger than all the others). As to your questions about AC/attack and strength (which is relevant to the expansion power), here are the resulting changes from expansion: melee attack rolls: +0 (+1 from Str, -1 from size) ranged attack rolls: -2 (-1 from Dex, -1 from size) damage rolls: +1* (+1 from Str) AC: -2 (-1 from size, -1 from Dex) * In addition to the +1 damage from your increased Strength, the damage dealt will also increase because larger weapons typically do greater damage. This alone is often the greatest reason for using the power. Oh, and reach. Your increased size category will also help with combat maneuvers like bull rushing, grappling, etc. Carrying capacity is more complicated. Increasing your size category increases the multiplier by which you adjust your carrying capacity. For example, if you started as a Str 10 Medium biped, your maximum load would be 100 lbs. After you manifested expansion, you'd be a Str 12 Large biped and your maximum load would be 260 lbs (130 lbs. for Str 12, times 2 for Large). That seems like a lot, but there's some question as to whether expansion increases the weight of your gear by 2 (the normal weight for an object one size category larger) or by 8 (a strict reading of the power's description and the obvious physical result from doubling an object's dimensions), in which case you might suddenly be carrying much more than you expected. If this is suddenly not sounding like the great deal you thought it was, remember it's only a 1st-level power.
Sickseelah 09-06-07, 12:23 PM	Ah i get it now, shucks, guess it isn't as overpowered as i once thought it was. I'll still probably take it though granted that i'm playing a monk/psywar and i would like the upg to unarmed dmg.
forsaken1111 09-06-07, 04:43 PM	Ah i get it now, shucks, guess it isn't as overpowered as i once thought it was. I'll still probably take it though granted that i'm playing a monk/psywar and i would like the upg to unarmed dmg. Just remember, making yourself bigger isn't always practical. Many adventures are in cramped caves, narrow hallways, or smallish rooms. If you turn into a 15ft tall version of you, you may find that the penalties for fighting in a space smaller than your height outweigh the benefits. :)
CrimsonDeath 09-06-07, 04:59 PM	Just remember, making yourself bigger isn't always practical. Many adventures are in cramped caves, narrow hallways, or smallish rooms. If you turn into a 15ft tall version of you, you may find that the penalties for fighting in a space smaller than your height outweigh the benefits. :) I don't think you can do that anyway. Doesn't the power say that it fails if the space you're in can't accomodate your new size? Also, for an Expanding PsyWar/Monk, you may consider looking into a career in grappling.
forsaken1111 09-06-07, 05:01 PM	I don't think you can do that anyway. Doesn't the power say that it fails if the space you're in can't accomodate your new size? Also, for an Expanding PsyWar/Monk, you may consider looking into a career in grappling. Yes, but if you're in a 20ft square room with a 10ft ceiling, you can certainly fit a 15ft tall person. He would simply have to hunch over and it would be rather uncomfortable. If you manifested expansion while nailed in a coffin, however, I believe it fails. (Though your DM might give you a strength check to break out or something.)
CrimsonDeath 09-06-07, 06:32 PM	If you manifested expansion while nailed in a coffin, however, I believe it fails. (Though your DM might give you a strength check to break out or something.) Actually, you're right. You do get a Strength check (using your newly increased Strength modifier) to break whatever's confining you. Only if that check fails do you stop growing.
Sickseelah 09-06-07, 10:17 PM	Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead. I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping?
forsaken1111 09-06-07, 10:25 PM	Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead. I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping? Well if you grapple someone who doesn't have a light weapon and you do, you can hurt them each turn without them hurting you. Grappling is also great if you use armor spikes as your main weapon.
Fireclave 09-06-07, 10:52 PM	And let's not making it hard, or sometimes completely impossible, for casters to cast their spells.
CrimsonDeath 09-07-07, 12:30 AM	Yeah i would probably take something along the lines of grappling but i was thinking of tripping instead. I donno why but the way i see it, grappling is far worse than tripping. At least with tripping you're able to beat down on a prone opponent. With grappling, you're vulnerable to outsider interference, you can't go at full combat capabilities or full attacks from what i gather. Or is there something more intriguing to grappling in comparison to tripping? You could do both. There's no reason you can't grapple a prone opponent, and "rise from prone" isn't on the list of things you can do while grappled. The +4 bonus to hit a prone opponent negates the -4 penalty for using a light weapon in a grapple. Just be careful not to grapple anyone while there are enemy rogues lurking about. Or lurks rogueing about, for that matter.